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Lytha
2nd Aug 2002, 23:04
I am curious about your opinion concerning loot placement in an FM.

Do you like it when most of the loot is extremely cleverly hidden? Or would you prefer when (esp. in Normal & Hard) more than enough loot lies around in the open so that it is easy to meet the loot requirements; while maybe a few items are clevery hidden (like the ring in Assassins - more than enough loot was easy enough to find, but one item was hidden well enough to drive most people crazy)?

Also, what kind of loot quota (% of total amount of loot that needs to be found) seems reasonable for the difficulty modes? I've been considering something like "75% for expert, 50% for hard, 25% for normal", but I'm not sure if I am starting to become too soft-hearted at the moment in that matter. ;)

THEthief
2nd Aug 2002, 23:13
I can't stand when I play on normal and have to search for hours to find 20 more loot, to finish the game (secret to tell...I don't finish it, when that happens:D).
So, loot that's really hard to find is noooo good. Nooonooonooonooo. Seriously. No. :p
Assassins was fine for me; I don't go after every last bit of loot (I do what I must, and that's that:D), so it was no prob for me. :D
That looks about right - or maybe 50% for normal, 60% for Hard, and 75% or 80% for expert. I donno...:D

clayman
2nd Aug 2002, 23:19
I prefer to work in "realistic thief" mode; which says...I won't climb on top of a three story tomb using six crates, refuse,/etc. just to end up crouching and looking into an obscure crevice just to get a 25 gold pot. C'mon, a real thief would count his blessings, say fuggedaboudit, and move on to the next place. Loot should be realistically placed in the mission. If it's mansion style, then everything should be on tables/bodies/safes etc. I don't mind a bit of stuff washed down toilets into sewers, etc. But when goodies end up in ridiculous places, I revolt. The weirdo missions, I dunno. Zombies can carry things(conceivably) to some odd places. But there is a limit. :)

I think that designers that intentionally place their loot and/or objectives in devilish places are just thumbing their noses at the populace. Making fun of us drudges just trying to get through. A real thief wouldn't even deign to try some of the crap I've seen, he'd(or she'd) just move on to the next easy mark.

Loot should be realistic, i.e. 60%-Normal, 70%-Hard, 80%-Expert. After all, a thief's just in it for a quick easy in-and-out, cash in, and move on. :rolleyes:

Just uno man's opinion. :)

Lytha
2nd Aug 2002, 23:30
Thank you for your replies, THEthief and clayman. :)

Looks like my theoretical "25% quota" for normal <i>is</i> too soft-hearted. Hmm...


One additional question, still concerning loot. :)


What is your opinion about modifications of the loot value? As in: I want to place a lot of loot items, but I don't want the player to end up with several thousand loot, so the loot value of most items is modified. Gives a lot of "loot-sounds" (which can surely be satisfying), but without overpowering the final stats. Example: Thieves' Guild (Thief Gold), or the City area in Calendra's Legacy #1 with these purses worth 2-15 loot.

RiCh
2nd Aug 2002, 23:30
Ah loot placement! Well I personal would make sure that the loot totals are easily but not too easily achieved. Make sure you can reach the loot total set with Loot that is either on show or in containers, which aren’t hidden. Once the set loot total can be reached then you can decide on hiding a few 100 in more out of reach places. Nothing spoils an FM more IMO than searching for a coin stack that’s hidden in some obscure place. Wasting huge amounts of time and turning Garrett into nothing more than a common thief scrounging around for scraps of loot :( It just wouldn’t happen in real life, so I’d say go for a more realistic approach.

RiCh
2nd Aug 2002, 23:35
I think this is what you want? Select an item:

Properties ---> ADD---->dark gamsys---> Loot

you can change the loot total of an item this way I wouldn't have Garrett stealing 10s of 1000s so if you have alot of loot trim the loot totals this way

Lytha
2nd Aug 2002, 23:38
Yes, I know how to do this already, but thank you for the reply, RiCh. :)


No, I meant, how do you like it when a mission has modified loot values? Or isn't it important at all, as long as it's easy enough to find enough loot for the loot objective?

RiCh
2nd Aug 2002, 23:48
I’m not too sure? But if Garrett comes away from a job with 10+ grand for one nights work. How come he’s never got any money? And is always owing on his rent? Heck with that kind of money he could buy his own mansion :D I’d go for a lower, maybe modified loot total? But then we have the opposite side of the coin: why would nobles display items that aren’t worth 100s? ah man you just can’t win!

Speedy[143]
3rd Aug 2002, 00:40
I don't usually have a problem reaching the loot objective.... I play on hard 99% of the time and it's often one of if not the first objectives that gets checked off... so the current % per level of play seems just fine with me...

I have read that other players will stop "collecting" loot as soon as they reach that objective... NOT me... I want everything and love searching for it.... often squealing like a little piggy, well not really, maybe grinning with satisifaction after putting a lot of effort into getting to a hard to reach place and finding something of value heh sorry clayman:p

I do have to agree with clayman about loot being in realistic places... there's nothing worse than thinking you got it all figured out and THIS must be the place where he/she has stashed the "what-ever" just to find nothing, nadda, zero, zlich:( I've been known to curse!!!!

I don't think loot placement should be so difficult that players quit a game without reaching the objective but I do believe that each FM author should make their missions their way.... that's what makes each mission unique and fun to play:D

As far as changing the items worth... I'm one of those peeps who don't really pay attention to what everythings worth... I just play... happily gathering and working through a mission until I get that "MISSION COMPLETE" announcement.... it's always bittersweet!!!!

XXXOOO
Speedy

ChowYunFat
3rd Aug 2002, 01:56
I agree with pretty much everything Clayman said. Nothing more surely ruins a mission for me than having to scrounge all over the place for a few coins to meet a loot objective. To me, loot objectives have two purposes: 1) To remind you that Garrett is, in fact, a thief! 2) To encourage players to explore more of the map the designer spent so much time creating. And you can do both of these without hiding things in frustratingly obscure places.

I wouldn't mind a mission with altered loot totals at all. I love hearing that b-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-ing! sound of discovered loot.

Higgins
3rd Aug 2002, 15:24
I agree that it is very frustrating having to spend inordinate amounts of time looking for tiny coins to finish a level [cf. Casing the Joint] - I think the 100% loot requirement should be a ghoster's choice only and for expert 75-80% is enough [but the difficulty of access and guard placement should be the real challenge I feel]. For hard I think 70% is also fair, as there are other factors to compensate the player [fewer guards or use of weapons].

Lake
3rd Aug 2002, 16:22
I prefer the mission loot requirement to be in easy to medium spots with some loot in hard to find places for the perfect thief mode.

Lytha
3rd Aug 2002, 22:25
Thank you everybody for your replies. It makes me feel a bit more secure that I was mentally on the right track here already (except that I am too nice to the people who play in Normal, maybe). :)

Huntress
4th Aug 2002, 18:38
Here's my 2-1/2¢ worth ;) I play Normal most of the time and occasionally Hard...I usually get my quota and then some as I do search around pretty well just because...only one mission did I recently play that I had to get help as to where something was to get my quota met. I missed seeing a very small switch (and that's my main objection) very small switches placed in obscure places..not that this one was per se...but in general terms. Also very much agree with Clayman and RiCh about unrealistic hiding places. I don't go in search of every little piece of loot and won't do the stack crate/climb all over the place to see if something has been put there. I feel simply that most of it should be in logical places of hiding and some of it in a more difficult surrounding perhaps..to give collecting it more of a challenge...but silly places and small reward types are not my way of thinking for a fun mission, nor do I think "huge" caches are necessarily the best of ways either (sorry Chris) larger ones are fine in certain cirsumstances...break into a bank vault as an example...you would find a large cache there...but again I also agree with the idea...that if Garrett found "huge" amounts of loot...he wouldn't be a Thief anymore...and neither would we, LOL :D

So that's my contribution for what's it worth and you can always take it with a grain of salt as it were....thanks for asking and Good Hunting as well as Good DromEding :)

amievil?
4th Aug 2002, 19:03
Originally posted by clayman
I prefer to work in "realistic thief" mode; which says...I won't climb on top of a three story tomb using six crates, refuse,/etc. just to end up crouching and looking into an obscure crevice just to get a 25 gold pot. C'mon, a real thief would count his blessings, say fuggedaboudit, and move on to the next place. Loot should be realistically placed in the mission. If it's mansion style, then everything should be on tables/bodies/safes etc. I don't mind a bit of stuff washed down toilets into sewers, etc. But when goodies end up in ridiculous places, I revolt. The weirdo missions, I dunno. Zombies can carry things(conceivably) to some odd places. But there is a limit. :)

I think that designers that intentionally place their loot and/or objectives in devilish places are just thumbing their noses at the populace. Making fun of us drudges just trying to get through. A real thief wouldn't even deign to try some of the crap I've seen, he'd(or she'd) just move on to the next easy mark.

Loot should be realistic, i.e. 60%-Normal, 70%-Hard, 80%-Expert. After all, a thief's just in it for a quick easy in-and-out, cash in, and move on. :rolleyes:

Just uno man's opinion. :)


clayman, you and i have alot in common i think :)

i also play in realistic mode, dunno if youre version of it is the same is mine. i play til death, basically iron man style. if i get busted tough ..... anyway regarding loot placement, well as a designer, i try to place the loot in a believable place. most of the time my loot isnt hard to find. im not going to throw a pricy item in a sewer and expect you to find it. the contrary to this is if you are building a mission which takes place in ruins, a la lost city. then it would make sense to scatter loot about and make it hard to find. to me that would be realistic. why put a gold vase behind a stairwell? why put a fire place poker in the basement? think about those things lytha when you are placing it and you'll come out all right. :)


huntress, ill give a hint and say in my fm coming up i have small switches. i wont say what they go to or where. but, in my opinion if the switches are small, they should be that way becuase you arent supposed to see it and go to that secret. thats why its a secret. like in my motel, realisticly they dont want the guests to pull switches and find hidden places. the aurgument here is that a switch in a master bedroom could be more easily found becuase only the master of the house is allowed in the room most of the time.

i have personally found that you can make thief extremely realistic, or you can make it extremely wierd. thats what makes this game so good.

Lytha
4th Aug 2002, 20:23
I have a lot of little buttons already, and there will be even more. But the frogs nuke them after they are done with the frobbing. ;)

Maybe I should use hammernovices instead of frogs, since I nuke the frogs afterwards too, and in general, I like frogs. Hmm... <i>*is back to the eyerolling*</i>

Yikes, ignore that.



Thank you Huntress and amievil? :)

Zaccheus
5th Aug 2002, 12:30
I thought it was:

Normal/Hard/Expert ~ 25%, 40%, and 60%.

Gumdrop
5th Aug 2002, 13:32
Originally posted by amievil?
...in my fm coming up i have small switches. i wont say what they go to or where. but, in my opinion if the switches are small, they should be that way becuase you arent supposed to see it and go to that secret. thats why its a secret.

I'm very fond of my little switches, and place them with all the thaught, love and tender care I can muster. :D

I confess that I am guilty of bad switch placement though. The one hidden under the stairs in Berkshead was way too hard to spot, and completely wrong anyway, becouse you had to find it to finish the mission. But now I have made my peace with SmallArcingUnlabelled and have come to understand how they should be used. That's not to say my current missions don't have cunningly hidden switches - oh no. It's just that I understand they should never be forced upon a player - unless there's a darn good reason and a BIG CLUE.

Anyway...What was this all about again? Ah yes. Loot. :)

Well I think everything that should have been pointed out, has been. One thing Frobber (?) mentioned not long ago over at TTLG, was the fact that in most FM's there really is no need to force a player to aquire X amount of loot, designers seem to do it purely out of habbit.

Komag
5th Aug 2002, 17:34
Originally posted by Zaccheus
I thought it was:

Normal/Hard/Expert ~ 25%, 40%, and 60%.

That's how I do it, but I don't know if that's how the OMs are or anything.

Huntress
5th Aug 2002, 20:57
be out in plain site naturally..but neither should they be in such difficult location as to take searching all over everywhere just to find it...and somekind of hint would ceraintly aid in this way to move the game along. Searching is part of the game to be sure...but neither do I want to have to rope up someplace to find it on a beam...so to speak :) Alternately, finding the darn thing..you then shouldn't have to wonder where the heck it opened up something...like in another room? You should at least be able to see in the area your in...what the heck moved? LOL As an example...in an O.M. You found a switch behind a partial wall in a training room...but opened up a panel upstairs on the balcony...yea gads...I didn't even find that when playing for the first time...wondering what the heck it opened up...heard it but couldn't find it :( That's the sort of thing I'm relating to. You found a secret...oh yeah...where? :D

So switches are fine...just the idea of making them a little more accessible is all I'm suggesting in general. Thanks and Good Hunting! :)

SlyFoxx
5th Aug 2002, 21:17
I usually like to see loot needs on the low side. I usually find about 60-95 percent of the loot anyway. I just hate it when stuff is really hard to find and very much needed to match a loot goal. If the mission has a few other goals I don't even see the need for a loot goal at all. Just pick up what you find and be happy you've got rent money.

theBlackman
5th Aug 2002, 21:52
Huntress
Member

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Bay Area, SF, CA


Re: Switch placements...Yes I agree they shouldn't
be out in plain site naturally...

Nice play on words there (site/Sight) LOL. You prolly dint even notice. :D

Huntress
5th Aug 2002, 22:42
My unconscious mind always works better than my conscious mind...didn't you realize that already? :D :p Yea, it did turn out fairly humorous at that now that you mention it... ;) Ta and Good Hunting!