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Power reaver
2nd Aug 2002, 15:18
At 1st I found it very strange how the BR suddenly got interested in Raziel , i think I may have found the ans .

I posted this in the BO Forum but I think it goes here better


Wow I just thought of a theory which could be the reason why the BR impaled Raz . I think the answers are more down to earth then you guys think . It has more to do with Physics (I like Physics )

OK so lets assume that the effect of Moebiuses staff lifted as soon as Human Raz is killed . Thus the wraith Blade got activated . It coiled out of Razes arm and on the BR . Now lets goto the physics bit of things , as the wraith Blade coiled around the BR and developed a High Pressure(HP) outside the Physical Blade , thus creating a vacuum of sorts inside the blade . Thus the blade goes haywire in search of Balance and impales Raz , and starts sucking his soul (HP always goto LP area , ever done the balloon/lung experiment at school?) , so it can be possible that after the balance is achieved , the soul sucking stops . So suppose
The Wraith Blade = 1/2 of Razes soul
Raz = 1 of Razes soul
Thus for balance the BR will absorb 1/2 of Razes soul , thus Raz will still exist .

Now you guys will say "Then Y the heck does Kain rip out the Blade out of Razes chest"
Well suppose if he didnt , the Blade would get overflowed and explode , thus doing major damage . This can also support the "paradox is a part of the Original Timeline theory" which states the a paradox is a barrier that does not allow a Time Streamer to look at the whole Original Timeline , a kind of a security measure that does not allow time streamers to exploit there powers for Evil .



Thoughts ?



Like I said in the QUOTE

Thoughts ?

KainSyndrome101
2nd Aug 2002, 17:21
The "Blood Reaver" impaled Raziel because the wraith-blade came back after being disabled, and it wound around the BR and sucked Raziel's soul into the BR. The BR didn't suck Raziel's soul by itself. The wraith-blade sucked Raziel's soul into the BR. The BR had no part in the actual sucking process. Another reason why it impaled him was because all foes were exhausted.

Azuriel
2nd Aug 2002, 18:04
Originally posted by KainSyndrome101
Another reason why it impaled him was because all foes were exhausted.

but were they? Moebius was still around....

Serul
2nd Aug 2002, 18:21
I think it's more of a "I'm hungry I'll consume the next victim I see" thing.

The Soul Reaver became more aware/in control when Raziel first encountered the Physical Soul Reaver (for example, it ate all the souls of defeated enemies before Raziel could).
Also Raziel calls the Entity trapped in the Soul Reaver, "ravenous" and you'll pretty much go insane iff you're trapped for so long (if the Entity was aware that is).

So it was mad and hungry, which would explain (ok, not much :rolleyes: ) what I said above.

Azuriel
2nd Aug 2002, 18:32
ok.


wouldn`t a burger do? or the soul of that sarafan on the floor?

warpsavant
2nd Aug 2002, 19:43
Rvr Mtr

Serul
2nd Aug 2002, 20:30
Originally posted by warpsavant
Rvr Mtr

Come again??? :confused:

Azuriel
2nd Aug 2002, 20:34
Reaver Meter?

Farfaniccio
2nd Aug 2002, 23:15
"that sarafan on the floor"

The sarafan on the floor is Raziel... So assuming that Wraith Raziel has the same soul as sarafan Raziel there were two of the same souls there. The thing that is odd is that once the wraith blade comes back and wants some souls raziel has the only soul available... but the same soul is there twice.

Reaver of Souls
3rd Aug 2002, 01:25
Now I may be wrong here, but after looking around in this forum, it seems that the general idea is that the wraith blade is raziel, right?

He says that "the soul devouring entity had been and always would be him", so raz=wraithblade.

Now according to Power Reaver's theory, the wraith blade is 1/2 raz's soul, so maybe it wanted the rest of him too?

(This isn't supposed to sound sarcastic in case it does)

Non-existent
3rd Aug 2002, 01:59
Ummm, ok, I am not getting the math there, how does:
½+½=1-½ balance out if you are trying to get equal sides? It would still be outta balance because it would now be:
Raz=½ soul
Reaver=1 soul

Wouldn't it be better to take only one quarter of a soul to give them both 3/4 of a soul?

Anyways, I never liked the whole 'portion of a soul argument' because it is too simple and unreliable. Questions of sentience (as in a piece of a soul gaining sentience), where does individual thought, memory, desire, and will reside within the soul, etc come into play.

Also, the portion of a soul argument is, in my opinion, a complete waste of making Raz the Reaver in the first place. If Raz was the Soul Reaver why make it so suddenly he is not? Kinda wastes the tragic fate for the tragic hero element. (Note: I never liked the idea of Raziel being the Reaver, it was completely obvious that it would happen I prayed from the beginning of SR1 that CD would not do it, but now that they have I would prefer to see it through as is, instead of copping out for a more pleasant fate for Raz, besides, it creates even more questions that CD would need to seriously address, because they are weighty questions that cannot be blithely answered)

Umah Bloodomen
3rd Aug 2002, 02:54
There can't be equal sides. It is expressed that The Reaver cannot destroy/consume itself. (Soul-wise anyway). Now if the Blood Reaver turned on human Raziel, it could consume the blood, but the soul would remain intact. This is clearly an example of the blade sustaining itself.

I agree with Serul and I agree with Warp. The blade was weak and needed sustianance to continue and merely attacked who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I also agree with Non-existant on the portion soul issue. One it's too complicated and definately unreliable therefore should be excluded from consideration. I had been inclined to believe it at once, until I discovered that the Reaver can't turn on it's own soul.

Raziel's soul is the same whether he's human, vampire or little blue guy we all know and love. And it is in one piece. (It's just paradoxial when they all encounter each other and try to kill each other...LOL).

When Raziel was raised into a vampire, his human soul was drawn back into his corpse (yet concealed by Kain's magic). When Raziel became the Soul Reaver, his vampyric soul (which contained his human soul) was still present.

Blah, I hoped this made any sense...:p ;)

Power reaver
3rd Aug 2002, 05:17
But has anyone else not found it funny that the BR attacks Raziel , he doesent have any blood(except for that blue juice which I think is just liquid spectral matter , ie Raz doesent need blood) , to BR s senses Raz should be invisable , or disinterestful , because frankly Raz doesent matter to it .

Plus there is no evidence that there was another soul other than Raz that inhabitted the BR/SR , thus before Razes soul was absorbed the Reaver was nothing but a normal magical weapon which had the capacity of drinking blood , in such I dont think that the Reaver had a brain or something .

All the foes were exhausted , that doesent mean you eat whatever comes within reach .

Suppose you havent eaten in days , as in all the pizza on your plate has been exhausted , it doesent mean you start eatin your plate . Besides the Reaver was kept like a relic with Janos and i beleive it hadent fed for a long time , but it didnt attack Janos or Raziel at the retreat now did it .

Thus what Iam saying is that the wraith Blade caused a kind of pressure on the blade , probably controlled it and made it attack Raziel , why you may ask would it do that ? The ans is simple , if that event does not happen then poof , there is no Wraith Blade , no Soul Reaver , thus it did that probably to ensure its survival .

My theory put forward the technical possiblities , of what the wraith Blade did to make the BR do what it wanted it do , what was going on inside the Blade during that event .

BTW that 1 - 1/2 Wraith Blade theory is just that , a theory , and a possibility of what happened at that point if CD decides to go on with "the SR is already created in SR2" theory .

puf puf , ugh my fingers are aching :p

Umah Bloodomen
3rd Aug 2002, 05:54
Originally posted by Power reaver
But has anyone else not found it funny that the BR attacks Raziel , he doesent have any blood(except for that blue juice which I think is just liquid spectral matter , ie Raz doesent need blood) , to BR s senses Raz should be invisable , or disinterestful , because frankly Raz doesent matter to it .

The blade still possessed wraith properties. Once it became the Blood Reaver and there was no blood to feed upon, naturally it would go for the next available thing: Souls. It had been accustomed to them before, it would have to resort to them again. I feel that blood is the "delicacy" for the Reaver, in which it would now indulge itself in, seeing it has established it craves it.


Originally posted by Power reaver
Plus there is no evidence that there was another soul other than Raz that inhabitted the BR/SR , thus before Razes soul was absorbed the Reaver was nothing but a normal magical weapon which had the capacity of drinking blood , in such I dont think that the Reaver had a brain or something .

Remember that Janos said the reaver was forged for Raziel. When Raziel was introduced to his destiny (cast into the abyss) then the events unfolded to where him becoming the reaver were set into motion. We aren't clear on what the magical properties were of the Reaver when it was forged - I am not disputing that. But what if the properties were based on some catalyst to initiate it's wraith properties? (Raziel becoming a spiritual being and touching the blade would be considered the catalyst for the Reaver to seek out it's new evolution.


Originally posted by Power reaver
All the foes were exhausted , that doesent mean you eat whatever comes within reach .

It does if you are still hungry. :p :rolleyes: Welcome to the wonderful world of adaptation.


Originally posted by Power reaver
Suppose you havent eaten in days , as in all the pizza on your plate has been exhausted , it doesent mean you start eatin your plate . Besides the Reaver was kept like a relic with Janos and i beleive it hadent fed for a long time , but it didnt attack Janos or Raziel at the retreat now did it .

No you don't start eating the plate. You search around the kitchen and find yourself a hot dog or a hamburger or whatever else you have in stock. And I've got you here. No it didn't turn on Raziel right away but the more you used it, the more likely it would drain his energy. It hadn't been awakened to itself yet. (The catalyst) That occured when Raziel picked the physical blade up at the end...and it most certainly turned on him then. He never touched the thing in Janos' retreat.


Originally posted by Power reaver
Thus what Iam saying is that the wraith Blade caused a kind of pressure on the blade , probably controlled it and made it attack Raziel , why you may ask would it do that ? The ans is simple , if that event does not happen then poof , there is no Wraith Blade , no Soul Reaver , thus it did that probably to ensure its survival .

Pressure? As in peer pressure? (ROTFLMAO) This isn't high school Power Reaver. If anything it is a flat out sadomasochistic relationship. One dominating the other. For the heck of it.


As stated in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Main Entry: sa·do·mas·och·ism
Pronunciation: "sA-(")dO-'ma-s&-"ki-z&m, "sa-, -'ma-z&-
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary sadism + -o- + masochism
Date: 1922
: the derivation of pleasure from the infliction of physical or mental pain either on others or on oneself
- sa·do·mas·och·ist /-kist/ noun or adjective
- sa·do·mas·och·is·tic /-"ma-s&-'kis-tik, -"ma-z&-/ adjective


As stated in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Main Entry: mas·och·ism
Pronunciation: 'ma-s&-"ki-z&m, 'ma-z&- also 'mA-
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Leopold von Sacher-Masoch died 1895 German novelist
Date: circa 1893
1 : a (EDITED FOR SUGGESTIVE CONTENT) characterized by pleasure in being subjected to pain or humiliation especially by a love object -- compare SADISM
2 : pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering



As stated in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary


Main Entry: sa·dism
Pronunciation: 'sA-"di-z&m, 'sa-
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Marquis de Sade
Date: 1888
1 : a (EDITED FOR SUGGESTIVE CONTENT) in which gratification is obtained by the infliction of physical or mental pain on others (as on a love object) -- compare MASOCHISM
2 a : delight in cruelty b : excessive cruelty


I don't think it's pressuring anything...it wants flat out control. :p And they are both going to fight each other over it. One's going dominate and the other will submit...and this will continue in a vicious cycle for all eternity. (At least until Raziel can figure out how to take charge of the situation).


Originally posted by Power reaver
My theory put forward the technical possiblities , of what the wraith Blade did to make the BR do what it wanted it do , what was going on inside the Blade during that event .

See above response and that will explain what is going on inside the reaver. :p

On a brighter note: I did also manage to look this up for you in case you forgot. :p ;)



Originally spoken by Raziel at the end of SR2 - Compliments of Ardeth Silvereni's site
Raziel V.O.:

Sensing its twin, the wraith-blade uncoiled itself from me - and instead wound lovingly around its former self.
I felt its grip loosen, and as the blade left me, its absence chilled me more than its presence ever had.
A forboding sense of emptiness and loss stole over me... and a terrible revelation gathered like a storm at the edge of my awareness...

Thus joined, the twinned Reavers turn on Raziel - with the blade still bound to his hand, Raziel is dragged helplessly as the Reaver exerts its own will. Raziel strugges, but is powerless to resist the blades as they turn inexorably toward him.

Raziel V.O.: (a horrible epiphany)

With all other foes exhausted, the conjoined blades turned themselves on me. And I realized, finally, why I had sensed nothing when Janos offered me the blade.
The Reaver was never forged to be a soul-stealing weapon...
The Reaver plunges toward Raziel and impales him. His eyes widen in agony, despair and recognition -

Raziel V.O.:

... the ravenous, soul-devouring entity trapped in the blade was - and always had been - me.
This is why the blade was destroyed when Kain tried to strike me down - the Reaver could not devour its own soul. The paradox shattered the blade.
So - this was my terrible destiny - to play out this purgatorial cycle for all eternity...
I could not bear it - despair overwhelmed me.

EDIT: Had to adjust my color to determine who said what. ;)

warpsavant
3rd Aug 2002, 06:50
Anyways, I never liked the whole 'portion of a soul argument' because it is too simple and unreliable. Questions of sentience (as in a piece of a soul gaining sentience), where does individual thought, memory, desire, and will reside within the soul, etc come into play.


Kain used portion's of his sole to create his Lts.

Razliel's soul was "leeched" to restore the blade in W.C.

And let us not forget 1 of Blincs favorite peice of Dialogue about Raziel stealing a peice of Kains soul in the Chronoplast and gaining the ability to shift at will.

Umah Bloodomen
3rd Aug 2002, 06:56
Originally posted by warpsavant


Kain used portion's of his sole to create his Lts.

Razliel's soul was "leeched" to restore the blade in W.C.

And let us not forget 1 of Blincs favorite peice of Dialogue about Raziel stealing a peice of Kains soul in the Chronoplast and gaining the ability to shift at will.

1. Do you think Kain has corns on his sole? :p **pokes fun at warp and runs**

2. I thought that reference was about Raziel...not Kain. I knew Kain used a portion of his soul to resurrect the bretheren. (Perhaps I read that part wrong when I quoted the 3/4 rule of Raz's soul) **shrugs**

3. Indeed the soul was "leeched" in William's chapel. Good point!

4. Where does a cute girl with big biscuits find Blinc's piece of dialogue refering to Kain's soul and the Chronoplast? **bats eyes all cute-like***

Binky
3rd Aug 2002, 11:48
Some observations:
In SR1, Raz can sip bits of humans' souls, feeding himself without killing the victim.
In SR2, if you hit an enemy with the Reaver, then finish him with other weapons, Raz can feed on the soul, but it gives him less energy.
So, apparently, souls can be divided. Much as I agree with the philosophical questions it would raise.


Now, based on that fragment that Umah quoted, the physical blade was not what attacked Raziel, but the two blades conjoined. The magical properties of the physical blade itself did not have to be created with the intentions of pulling Raziel inside at all - Janos could have been unaware that the blade would pull Raziel in. Rather, the whole wraith-blade-pulling-Raz-inside-the-physical-blade thing could have been Moebius' plot to imprison Raz, and prevent him from realizing his other destiny that we still know little of; I could be the naive one here, of course, but wasn't the whole SR2 about the plot to imprison Raz, and Kain's attempt to not allow that to happen? Am I not paranoid enough for the game if I still believe that the Ancients wanted Raz outside the blade, and it was only Moebius who wanted him inside?

chuffy
3rd Aug 2002, 12:39
I'd like to know how he impaled himself? The blade has to be at least 4-5 foot long. theres no way Raziel could spin the sword around and shove it in to his chest. He's arms just aren't long enough.
And i think the wraith blade was just excited. Like when you use it too much in the game. And it starts to feed off of Raziel. Like that but on a larger scale.

chuffy

Mordred
3rd Aug 2002, 15:31
I find that bit i bit messed up.

Ok so we find the Soul Reaver in BO1 eats souls.

in SR1 the soul Reaver is broken releasing the trapped soul, which becomes Raziels weapon.

in SR2 we find out the Soul Reaver did not eat souls and was never ment too.

when the Soul Reaver (wraith blade) wraps round the Blood Reaver, it trys to take Raziels Soul, thus trapping it in the Blade and making the Soul Reaver.

so now we know the trapped soul in the Reaver is Raziel.

ok now, the this is where im lost, to Make the soul Reaver u need a Soul reaver, which u cant do, as raziel has to be trapped in the soul reaver, but he need the Soul Reaver (wraith Blade) which is him. no matter how u mess with time that just dont work.


Also in BO1 mobius gives william the just a soul reaver, now i want to know where he gets it from, as kain finds it, he then has it right up to the point where he breaks it on raziel, so if he went back in time and gave it to william, it would not be there for kain to find. and he cant take it from the futrue as it's now attached to raziel.

warpsavant
4th Aug 2002, 01:34
26-14 – “Even this small measure of Kain’s soul has conferred on you a great gift: like your master, you may now shift into the material plane at will. While your health must still be fully restored, you no longer require a portal.” <The Elder God> [C]



http://www.peak.sfu.ca/~blincoln/lok/Soul_Reaver_Dialogue.HTML

Non-existent
4th Aug 2002, 02:02
warp:
Kain used portion's of his sole to create his Lts.

Razliel's soul was "leeched" to restore the blade in W.C.

And let us not forget 1 of Blincs favorite peice of Dialogue about Raziel stealing a peice of Kains soul in the Chronoplast and gaining the ability to shift at will.
Those are not the same at all. What is the difference?
Kain used pieces of his soul to bind Raz and Co. back to their corpses, there is absolutely no suggestion that Kain's portion of a soul gained sentience within their bodies and took over. With the Reaver a portion of Raz's soul theorhetically becomes a ravenous, insane entity. The metaphysical differences are staggering. In Kain's case it is nothing more than glue and energy. In the Reaver's case it is a living, thinking, hungering entity.

Raziel's soul was leeched, yes, it was leeched of energy to restore a blade. The difference between energy and a sentient being is very different.

As for the cut dialogue of SR1: I said long ago I thought that was almost as stupid as Kain's and Ariel's soul living within the Reaver in that same cut dialogue. A sword that consumes souls somehow allows the entities of Ariel and Kain to live out eternity trapped within when apparently all other souls are eaten and destroyed... yeah, whatever. Those two cut pieces happen to present as many problems as the portion of soul making the Reaver.
*In these cases you have presented here the 'soul' is presented as nothing more than a spectral energy, and not a thing that when divided allows the portions to gain a sentience that makes them more than objects but willful entities.*

Edit: Note to self, warp is not spelled war[.

Further Edits:

Binky:
Some observations:
In SR1, Raz can sip bits of humans' souls, feeding himself without killing the victim.
In SR2, if you hit an enemy with the Reaver, then finish him with other weapons, Raz can feed on the soul, but it gives him less energy.
So, apparently, souls can be divided. Much as I agree with the philosophical questions it would raise.
I am not questioning the Souls Being divided as a form of energy. I am questioning the very deep metaphysical questions that come about when a soul is divided whether it gains sentience, a need to consume to maintain existence, and personality/individuality.

As it is, Raziel's sense of self and being seems unaffected no matter how much his soul/energy is taken by the Reaver, this suggests that desire, memory, being is not simply the soul, but somehow seperate, and all the soul is is a spiritual energy that does not house what makes the individual unique. Yes, it is very confusing, blame CD for not adequately addressing these very deep problems so far.

The scope of historical changes that would need to be made to make it so the blade would not need sentience in which to act would be staggering if the blade does not have sentience yet is only a piece of soul.

The William Encounter would have to be changed, because if the sword is broken it cannot be fixed because the Wraith Blade took the initiative to fix it, meaning it would be broken for all time. If it is a mindless tool it would not recognize its broken form and would not have the mind to leech energy from its host and know when to stop the leeching of energy.

Same goes for trapping Raziel in the Reaver, the Blood Reaver did not begin to turn on Raz until the Wraith Blade coiled around it, the act of coiling around the Physical Blade was a deliberate act by a thinking entity, because the Wraith Blade seperates itself from Raz, something a mindless tool would not be able to do if it was bound to Raz.

The Wraith Blade itself forced Raz to the Dark Forge once it was activated, again, a deliberate act, but one far easier to change than the other two.

Edit, even further: So far no examples of souls being leeched, drained partially, etc support the Portion of a Soul is the Wraith Blade because in all examples these 'portions' are nothing more than a form of energy that is consumed, even in the cut SR1 dialogue it was nothing more than a piece of energy that granted a little more power to Raz's shifting. The Wraith Blade, we can all agree, is far different than a form of consumable energy.

Edit, final maybe?: *s around text is edited in this time around, added first list to make points stand out more.

Final edit, ok, seriously this time: Added in second list to make the points stand out more, decided to address last thing warp said:

warpsavant:
26-14 – “Even this small measure of Kain’s soul has conferred on you a great gift: like your master, you may now shift into the material plane at will. While your health must still be fully restored, you no longer require a portal.” <The Elder God> [C]
Again, presented as nothing more than energy (even if it did confer a boost to Raz's own power), still differing significantly from a willful, ravenous entity that happens to act of its own accordance at times.

Tidus of Zanarkand
4th Aug 2002, 03:20
Raziel's "destiny" os to eternally to be played out as a reaver of souls. THe blood reaver was created for him.

Prior to the time of Janos AUdron, being near the soul reaver caused a temporal distotrtion. THis was because it was a paradox, but not as big yet. THis is why whenever Raziel is near the soul reaver in the time after Janos's he feels as he describes it , a distortion or displacement feeling or a sense of vertigo. THis is becasuse his "twin soul" is in his body and in the soul reaver.

WHen he encopunters the then blood reaver now soul reaver in Janos's Retreat he feels no distortion becasue his soul is yet to be forged within the blade.

After killing sarafan raziel, our beloved Raziel realises this. "Sensing its twin, the wraith-blade uncoiled itself from me - and instead wound lovingly around its former self.
I felt its grip loosen, and as the blade left me, its absence chilled me more than its presence ever had.
A forboding sense of emptiness and loss stole over me... and a terrible revelation gathered like a storm at the edge of my awareness... "

in that moment when the soul\blood reaver begins to devour Raziel's soul it is becasue his soul, or the wraith blade is coiled around it, this makes it devour his soul. THe paradox that is created is his soul being both inside and outside of his body. He once again feels the distortion and vertigo becasue history abhors a paradox. In that moment, the soul reaver would have been fully forged and as Raziel describes it his "terrible destiny" would have been fulfilled. Living this eternal cycle. But Kain pulls the soul reaver/blood reaver out of raziel and changes history completely. This is what the Hylden wanted.

warpsavant
4th Aug 2002, 06:07
I am questioning the very deep metaphysical questions that come about when a soul is divided whether it gains sentience, a need to consume to maintain existence, and personality/individuality.

Enough philosophy - if I can take a single cell and create another living thing, in real life, I can take a portion of soul in a video game and trap it in a sword. I can't explain how or why it happens, its not my game. I'm not even sure if thats the correct interpretation of the endings events.

The portion of Raziels soul and the vampire energy within the blade commingle and thats that. Wraithblade. Raziel was drained almost to the point of oblivion, it's not like it took a tiny peice of soul and grew into this thing.

Non-existent
4th Aug 2002, 07:33
warp: So basically you are saying, "forget continuity, its magic"?

playaphilosophy
4th Aug 2002, 08:47
I dont care where the Wraith Blade comes from nor how it became part of Raziel's soul. If I get my hands on the Wraith blade and Blood Reaver, I like to stab you all with it. Blood Reaver stabs: Blood is sucked. Soul Reaver stabs: Your Soul Is Mine!:D :eek:

Binky
4th Aug 2002, 10:16
That was a long post, Non-existent...

But I see what you are trying to point at here, thanks.
I have merely simply always assumed (erroneously?) that, at the beginning of SR2, the wraith blade is the result of the previous history cycles repeating; that in all the previous history cycles Raziel killed Kain, Kain wasn't in that chapel-to-be to pull the Reaver from Raziel, and Raziel was pulled into the Reaver; it is only this time that history went differently. And that Raziel's original destiny was never to be pulled into the blade, but to wield it (because Moebius clearly wanted Raziel to be pulled into the blade; so it could not be a good thing for Raziel). That, for some reason, to secure this "Binding" that Janos speaks of, the Ancients needed a creature free of the blood curse as the wielder of the Reaver.

And that, at the end of this cycle, though SR1 still happened - because Raziel did not have different memories - the wraith blade was never formed out of a piece of Raziel's soul (because I find precisely the same problems with the blade's/Raz's sentience/memories as you do), but from the whole of it; but that Raziel, at the same time, retained his entire soul.

How? Actually, it's a pretty funny theory that I've written here once before, but received little reaction to it. The original poster seems to like physics; I'm not too good at it (at some point the maths is just too difficult for my limited mind), but I'll put a physics analogy here...

(To begin with, I'll assume that the soul that needs to be pulled inside the blade is not only the wraith-blade-soul, but the inside-Raziel-soul; the wraith-blade-soul, I think, acts only as the puller; what happens to it later, I know not.)

Let's assume that some form of Heisenberg's Principle (one accounted in for magic) holds in Nosgoth.
Let us further assume that the "twinning" of souls that Raziel speaks of does not refer to there being the wraith-blade-soul and this-Raziel's-soul in the same place, but actually to the twinning of this-Raziel's-soul (in other words, if one takes the wraith blade to be a copy of Raz's soul, there are three copies in the same place).

The second assumption comes from the first: to use the analogy with physics, Raziel's soul at this moment is like Schroedinger's cat: just as the cat is both dead and alive before the check is done, Raziel's soul is both inside and outside the blade: a moment of uncertainty.

Here, of course, the analogy collapses: upon doing the check, the cat is found either dead or alive (and furious, if I know anything about cats); perhaps, in Nosgoth - as Kain's words would indicate - at some specific space-time-Reaver configuration points it can be possible for the probability/state function of the soul to collapse into both states upon checking?

So, the souls would actually be twinned: really twinned: one inside the blade, to become the wraith blade in the future, the other in Raziel. No need for any partitioning of souls; the future is accounted for, and Raziel being free to realise his own destiny also accounted for.

I mean, this is nothing special, just my first, instinctive interpretation of that final cutscene, before I started to think about it at all. I was actually quite amazed by the "Part of the Soul" theory... my mind is really limited, I guess. Heh.

Vampmaster
4th Aug 2002, 11:09
Let me put it this way. If you were a canibal, who had a time machine and you went back in time to eat your former self. Every bite you took out of your former self, you would get a huge gaping scar from back when you were your former self. If you ate your former self completely, there would be none of your self left to go back in time and do the eating in the first place. It's the same with Raz as the blade trying to eat regular Raz. It's OK for the Wraith blade to trap Raziel's soul in the Blood Reaver, because the soul will still exist after it waits 2000 years to be smashed and then brought back in time as the wraith blade, this time it would be the one trapping the other Raz. As for the numbers adding up. At the end of SR2 half his soul in the Blood Reaver, half of his soul walking around and by the time the Soul Reaver is shattered on Raziel in SR1, all of Raziels soul will be inside the Reaver. So the wraith blade is all of his soul from the future.

Vampmaster
4th Aug 2002, 11:16
Oh, and if your talking physics, souls don't have mass (as far as I know) so they can travel through time (without TSDs) and exist at two places at once.

warpsavant
4th Aug 2002, 18:05
it has nothing to do with Magic. The Blood Reaver already had sentience, by taking a portion of Raziels soul the nature of the Blood Reaver was superceded by a deeper need, the need to feed on souls.

Just like the portions of Kains souls forced the souls of the Sarafan to re-enter their bodies and become Vampires. It was the peice of Kains soul that made them vampires.

Non-existent
4th Aug 2002, 21:37
warp:
The Blood Reaver already had sentience, by taking a portion of Raziels soul the nature of the Blood Reaver was superceded by a deeper need, the need to feed on souls.
Since when did the Blood Reaver already have sentience? Just because it was forged to drain blood gives no indication that it was given intelligence with which to act. If you are talking about Raziel's grip on the blade and inability to release it, well it was Raziel who felt compelled to grasp the weapon and it was he who was unable to let go, not the Reaver grasping him.


Just like the portions of Kains souls forced the souls of the Sarafan to re-enter their bodies and become Vampires. It was the peice of Kains soul that made them vampires.
I have already admitted to the possibility that the Reaver's very function can change in nature, but I have already explained the problems of sentience that arise, and the Blood Reaver has never shown any compulsion of action, it has shown itself to be nothing more than a magical tool. That the Blood Reaver was already sentient is doubtful.

Next, since when did it say that it was Kain's piece of soul that made them vampires? All they (CD and the games) say is that: "To create a vampire, one must steal a soul from the abyss to reanimate the corpse. It is the body that demands the blood sacrifice; our souls gain their advantage from the powers of the underworld."

Unless Morty was a vampire as well your argument is flawed, because all he did was bring Kain's soul back to his (Kain's) body and Kain was a vampire. Presumably, since Kain used a piece of his soul to bind then Morty probably did too.

Also, about saying it was magic: Well, you said, "if I can take a single cell and create another living thing, in real life, I can take a portion of soul in a video game and trap it in a sword." Now, that sounds very magical because, well, it would take someone with some immense mystical powers to just take a single cell and grow a living thing out of it. Normally you need either the proper environment for conception of a being, which is very difficult to acheive and no guarantee of results, or to be God (or the deity equivalent of) to produce living things without add of said conditions that will allow the conception of a living being to take place, through either natural or artificial means (eg natural birth babies compared to a baby grown and raised in a tube).

Binky: First off, good idea, twinning of the soul is much more believable than a portion of a soul, it would account for the individual sentience needed to act for certain important pieces of history (such as the repairing of the Reaver in William's Chapel).

I would suggest a possiblity to this:
To begin with, I'll assume that the soul that needs to be pulled inside the blade is not only the wraith-blade-soul, but the inside-Raziel-soul; the wraith-blade-soul, I think, acts only as the puller; what happens to it later, I know not.
The Wraith Blade Soul, after it pulls Raziel's soul into the blade would be expelled from history because of the resulting Paradox (One thing existing simultaneously in two forms in the same space, or the same matter existing simultaneously in space, though souls do not appear to be matter in the conventional sense). At least, that seems most likely to happen.

Of course, you are right, the uncertainty of Schrödinger's cat is what gives it its simultaneous state of being, but, this is akin to "A tree falls in the forest on a mime in the middle of a forest and no one is around to hear it do they make a sound and does anyone care?" The answer is that while we may not know the answer the rest of reality surrounding said incident does (this assumes that reality in fact does exist). So, that being, such an answer may not be the answer since history in this case would know what state both Raziel and the Reaver are in at all times, which is why it (history that is) reacts so adversely to the change. Though it is a possibilty, very interesting in fact, a conundrum that can only be solved by ruining the experiment, because to open the box releases the poison (or whatever it was) that would kill the cat anyways, so who knows if it was alive or dead before the checking?

Edit: Completed a sentence that I did not quite finish before hand.

Reaver of Souls
4th Aug 2002, 21:45
Allright, I can see that there is alot of philosophy and what not going on here.

Not to sound simple, but perhaps when the Wraith Blade coiled around the Blood Reaver it took control of the blade and made it go into Raziel. Perhaps the wraith blade was simply ensuring it's survival, and that it would continue to be created one way or another.

Thats just my theory though..

Umah Bloodomen
4th Aug 2002, 21:47
Originally posted by Non-existent

Next, since when did it say that it was Kain's piece of soul that made them vampires? All they (CD and the games) say is that: "To create a vampire, one must steal a soul from the abyss to reanimate the corpse. It is the body that demands the blood sacrifice; our souls gain their advantage from the powers of the underworld."

Unless Morty was a vampire as well your argument is flawed, because all he did was bring Kain's soul back to his (Kain's) body and Kain was a vampire. Presumably, since Kain used a piece of his soul to bind then Morty probably did too.




Original Response from Amy Hennig (Director of the LOK Series)

A: Without going into too much detail, there are various ways a vampire can be born/created.
The ancient/original Vampires (like Janos) had one method, by which Vorador was raised, and by which Vorador would also raise his vampire offspring. This would be a more "traditional" method, where the vampiric curse is passed from one vampire to a human.
Mortanius raised Kain by necromancy -- this gives Kain a unique vampiric heritage.
Because of this unique heritage, Kain's method of creating his vampire "sons" is also unique -- rather than using the traditional "blood" gift to create a vampire, Kain must donate a portion of his spirit. By breathing a portion of his soul into a corpse, that creature's soul is drawn back into the body and the creature is resurrected as a vampire. This is how Kain raised his six lieutenants in the Tomb of Sarafan.


I think your disagreement is flawed, Non-existent. Pay close attention to those last two sentences for me. I am more inclined to believe it from the woman who knows for sure 100%. :p ;)

You shouldn't challenge those who speak to Amy H. :p ;)

**Looks to warp**My compliments to you, kind sir. Your "Answers from Amy" thread is excellent and proves valuable once again. ;) :p

EDIT Spelled your name wrong in my purple response. LOL. Man, I should get some sleep. LOL. Sorry about that. ;)

Non-existent
4th Aug 2002, 22:10
Umah: Read it again. It does not say that the Vampire's soul used is what imparts the vampirism, it just says Kain must use a portion of his own soul to draw a soul back to the corpse. I was correct. *And as for Morty, all she says is Necromancy, what Morty needed to raise Kain is unknown, Kain being unique in using his soul may simply mean that Morty and his connection of his Pillar had the power already at his fingertips to avoid using it, if he had not been a pillar guardian who knows*

Edit: Furthermore, with Morty it does not elaborate at all on how he raised the vampire.

You try to trap me with Amy's words when they are so threadbare they say absolutely nothing to help you. Amy does not say it is Kain's soul that imparts vampirism, she says that he has to use a piece of his soul to draw the soul back to the body and the newly resurrected soul is a vampire. Seeing as Morty drew Kain's soul back to his body in the same form it is unknown whether the simple act of bringing the soul back to the body and the resulting ressurection makes them a vampire that needs blood to sustain their body or if it is something else.

Edit: To clarify: Amy says that Kain uses his portion of soul to draw a soul back to a corpse. She does not imply either way that it was Kain's portion of Soul that makes them a vampire or not. There is actually no explanation in those words at all, they were something we already knew. She does not elaborate on Morty's raising of Kain, was Kain a vampire simply by being raised? Was he only more than a zombie because he was resurrected more powerfully than the average zombie would be, or because unlike a zombie he was returned whole so that his body changed into a vampire? (Note that Zombies and Vampires are much alike, zombies consume flesh, presumably to sustain their physical bodies, Vampires consume blood to do the same)

Combined with what she said and what the Manual states (something I am sure she had a hand in) with the extreme lack of information the explanation that it is the resurrection of a body with their soul grabbed from the abyss that imparts vampirism.

Were the brothers weak because of vampirism weak in them? No, like zombies Melchiah was weak because his body decayed faster, suggesting that when Kain used a piece of his soul to bind Melchiah back to life it was not strong enough to infuse the life necessary to make his body need only blood to sustain it at top form, he was a vampire either way, so the gift was not so much the actual vampirism but the solidity/stability of the physical form.

Final Edit, maybe: *s around text is edited in.

warpsavant
4th Aug 2002, 22:37
Raziel:
Now that I had taken it up, the Reaver and I were inescapably joined. The harder I tried to release the blade, the more tightly my hand gripped the hilt, as if possessed of its own will.




Raziel:
The Reaver exerted some mysterious power over me. It sustained my energy, enabling me to prolong my physical manifestation indefinitely. In fact, bonded to the blade as I was, I could no longer shift into the spirit realm at will. Nor was I able to summon the Reaver's twin, for my wraith-blade had been disabled in the confrontation with Moebius.




The Reaver hummed with anticipation - Janos had called it a 'vampiric' blade, endowed with the power to drain its victims of their lifeblood.
I was eager to see what the Reaver would do to these two...




Raziel V.O.:
As Melchiah and Zephon fell before my blade, I felt the Reaver's blood-thirst as keenly as I ever had when I was still a vampire.
I could sense the boundary between us dissolving - the Reaver was consumed with my rage, and I was intoxicated by its bloodlust.
The blade had a vitalizing effect on me - my physical energy no longer decayed over time, and the wounds inflicted by my foes healed almost instantly.
The Reaver had made me invincible.


To me the Blood Reaver is showing a "mind" of it's own. "boundary between us dissolve"

Morty made Kain differently from the way Kain made the Lts.

All I was trying to imply is that it was the peice of Kains soul that caused the Sarafan Souls to re-enter their bodies and become vampires. The portion of Kains soul is what made the sarafan bodies vampiric, he breathed a portion of his soul into the corpse, the corpse becomes vampiric, the soul is drawn back in, and the body, the body Kain bretahed his spirit into, is what demands the blood sacrifice. Maybe the portion of Kains soul also has an effect on the soul drawn in, who knows.

I don't see why I cant think this is similiar to a portion of Raziels soul being breathed into the Blood Reaver making it a Soul eating weapon.




Raziel:
Away from the influence of Moebius’ cursed staff, I could feel the strength of the Soul Reaver slowly returning. If that orb was as debilitating to vampires as it was to the blade, it gave Moebius a powerful advantage over his enemies.
I finally understood how Moebius’ crusade could decimate the vampires so successfully. If he could immobilise his enemies, they were at his mercy.
But why, I wondered, did the staff have any effect on the Reaver?


If the staff does'nt effect Raziel why does it effect the Reaver, if the wraithblade isRaziel?

Its not just his soul. Its a combination of his soul and whatever the Ancient Vampires put into the blade in the first place.

I think Raziel is incorrect when he says the wriathblade is just his twin soul, cause its not just that. It's more.

Non-existent
4th Aug 2002, 22:54
warp: Honestly, this:
All I was trying to imply is that it was the peice of Kains soul that caused the Sarafan Souls to re-enter their bodies and become vampires. The portion of Kains soul is what made the sarafan bodies vampiric, he breathed a portion of his soul into the corpse, the corpse becomes vampiric, the soul is drawn back in, and the body, the body Kain bretahed his spirit into, is what demands the blood sacrifice. Maybe the portion of Kains soul also has an effect on the soul drawn in, who knows.
Is confusing. First you are saying Kain's soul makes them vampiric, then you are saying it is just there to drawn the soul in and the body is already vampiric... Confusing man.

As for all those quotes, the only one that supports the sentience in the Reaver is this one:
Raziel V.O.:
As Melchiah and Zephon fell before my blade, I felt the Reaver's blood-thirst as keenly as I ever had when I was still a vampire.
I could sense the boundary between us dissolving - the Reaver was consumed with my rage, and I was intoxicated by its bloodlust.
Even then, not so much. The Blade is meant to drain blood, it was forged to. Is it Blood Lust from the Blade that Raz is feeling or his own? The Reaver was consumed with Raz's rage, and the Blade, which always thirsts because it was forged to drink blood is being felt by Raz because it is sustaining him.

It sounds/reads more to me like Raz is having more echoes of his past self and more keenly feeling the magic that sustains him then he is feeling any true sentience in the blade.


If the staff does'nt effect Raziel why does it effect the Reaver, if the wraithblade isRaziel? Why doesn't it effect the Blood Reaver? By this logic:
Its not just his soul. Its a combination of his soul and whatever the Ancient Vampires put into the blade in the first place. Then the Blood Reaver should be affected by the Staff as well, since Raz's soul was not affected any debilatating effects the Wraith Blade suffers would be from the Blood Reaver, thus the Blood Reaver should be affected... unless it is not a sentient creature the staff can affect but a simple magic that circumvents the staff's influence. That Raziel's soul would have altered in the Reaver, given, either he absorbed the vampiric magic from the Blade so soul could be drawn through it, or he continued to evolve, becoming something the Staff could affect.


I don't see why I cant think this is similiar to a portion of Raziels soul being breathed into the Blood Reaver making it a Soul eating weapon. I would have no problem with this except for the fact that William's Chapel, the Physical Blade was fixed because the Reaver acted of its own volition, something a non-sentient blade cannot do, because it requires an act of recongnition and then a managing of available resources to accomplish the task, something it would either need programming to do or thought, same with when it recognized its former home in the Blood Reaver then turned on Raz.

So, you see, it is not a simple matter of a Soul Eating weapon, it is a weapon that has gone from being simply a weapon in SR1 to an actual character that acted, and affected objects from its own actions, in SR2.

This is why I do not agree with the Portion of a Soul making the Reaver. Historical events would need to be changed drastically to make it so the Reaver not only never acted, but would never need to act of its own accord.

Umah Bloodomen
4th Aug 2002, 23:12
Excuse me Non-existent, but you asked, and I quote:



Next, since when did it say that it was Kain's piece of soul that made them vampires? All they (CD and the games) say is that: "To create a vampire, one must steal a soul from the abyss to reanimate the corpse. It is the body that demands the blood sacrifice; our souls gain their advantage from the powers of the underworld."

In response to Warp's comment:



Just like the portions of Kains souls forced the souls of the Sarafan to re-enter their bodies and become Vampires. It was the peice of Kains soul that made them vampires.[/b]

and I responded with Amy's Response:

[quote]
A: Without going into too much detail, there are various ways a vampire can be born/created.
The ancient/original Vampires (like Janos) had one method, by which Vorador was raised, and by which Vorador would also raise his vampire offspring. This would be a more "traditional" method, where the vampiric curse is passed from one vampire to a human.
Mortanius raised Kain by necromancy -- this gives Kain a unique vampiric heritage.
Because of this unique heritage, Kain's method of creating his vampire "sons" is also unique -- rather than using the traditional "blood" gift to create a vampire, Kain must donate a portion of his spirit. By breathing a portion of his soul into a corpse, that creature's soul is drawn back into the body and the creature is resurrected as a vampire. This is how Kain raised his six lieutenants in the Tomb of Sarafan.

Where are you correct in reference to the first statement I quoted? You didn't even elaborate on Kain and how he raised the Sarafan bretheren, you went off on the Mortanius tangent.

Kain is a technically a vampire (pureblood or not), this statement from Amy obviously expresses that his (Kain's) soul (a vampyric soul) drew the other creature's (Sarafan Bretheren's) souls back to their bodies. They were vampires from that point on.

I am sure that if Kain was a fairy princess and he did the same routine, the Brethren would all become fairies too. (LOL). If he were human, it would be the same thing, the souls would return as humans.

This is clear that whatever the species is that is doing the "soul breathing" that whatever it raises will develop the same traits as that species.

Put two and two together with Mortanius. He is the Guardian of Death for crying out loud. Obviously he has connections to dead souls and the underworld. He has the means (and the knowledge) to fufill what was described in the game manual. Mortanius did not draw Kain's soul back to Kain in the same manner as Kain. He did not issue "CPR" (LOL) to Kain at any point of the BO1 opening FMV. (Do correct me if I viewed the FMV wrong though). :p



"To create a vampire, one must steal a soul from the abyss to reanimate the corpse. It is the body that demands the blood sacrifice; our souls gain their advantage from the powers of the underworld."


This is totally different than what Kain did.

Try this scenario:

Kain dies and meets Mortanius (who has his agendas)
Mortanius steals a soul from the abyss (which in this context could also include the spectral realm) which is the soul of a deceased vampire. (And you cannot sit here and expect me to buy that no vampires ever died either through murder or whatever the cause).
Kain returns as a vampire and MUST feed in order to sustain himself. (Vampirism requires blood, hence the "body demanding the blood sacrifice" which he obtained from villagers and blood fountains in BO1).

1. How are Amy's words threadbare? She's been with the series from the beginning. What she's just going to talk out of her butt now? BS :rolleyes: She was quite clear and I think you are making a lot more out of it than there actually is.

2. I have established that Mortanius did not perform the same technique that Kain used (Unless you can prove that the FMV of BO1 lied).

3. You are right, Amy does not imply anything. She says flat out (Read the quote) That "Kain must donate a portion of HIS spirit. Not Mickey Mouse's not Mortanius' or anyone else in the history of existence. It has to be KAIN's

4. I am not disputing the fact that Amy didn't have a hand in the game manual. But obviously she knows the difference between Kain's raising technique and Mortanius' raising technique. Also, I am sure that game manual was edited and adapted to fit in the amount of pages that it did. All manuals are. I've worked on a newspaper staff and you cut what you need to fit and look appropriate.

5. And what the heck were you trying to get at with this?



Were the brothers weak because of vampirism weak in them? No, like zombies Melchiah was weak because his body decayed faster, suggesting that when Kain used a piece of his soul to bind Melchiah back to life it was not strong enough to infuse the life necessary to make his body need only blood to sustain it at top form, he was a vampire either way, so the gift was not so much the actual vampirism but the solidity/stability of the physical form.

I didn't dispute why the vampires were weak. I know they were weak because as Kain went down the line, less of his power was transferred to the Bretheren. This is common knowledge. Hence why they look the way they do:

Raziel - The most of Kain's soul received. Strong. Looks pretty da** good too I might add. **drool** LOL

Turel - A lesser percentage of Kain's soul received. Strong but a tad weaker. Physical change is more apparent but he doesnt look qrotesque.

Dumah - Even lesser percentage of Kain's soul received. Averaged strength. Physical change even more apparent, beginning to look bizzare.

Rahab - Again lesser percentage. Little less than average strength. Looks even odder than the rest.

Zephon - Lesser percentage. Weaker than the rest, hideous and immobile.

Melchiah - Least perecentage. Weakest of the Bretheren. Grotesque and constrained within his place of residence (although not totally immobile like Zephon...which I never understood myself. You would think it would be the other way around).

There is nothing to suggest that their vampyric gift would prevent the vampires from evolving. Each one of them did evolve regardless (Kain included). The amount of blood they ingest sustains their life, not their appearance.

Example:

If we eat (a large quantity of food each time we eat), and we don't excercise, then we get fat and our appearance changes. If we eat healthy, without gorging ourselves and maintain proper excercise then our metabolism is enhanced and we keep a good looking form. (And no I am not suggesting the Bretheren weren't following a well balanced diet and excercise plan...this isn't Jenny Craig - it's LOK...LOL)

I am willing to bet that the vampirism was also weaker in each Lieutenant. Only reversed. The weaker members would require more blood to sustain themselves where as Raziel, Turel and maybe even Dumah would not. They could probably go for long periods without feasting on blood. (Kind of like a snake would off prey). (I am sure Kain could also sustain himself for longer periods, as well as Vorador and Janos could).

Blah I am done rambling for now. LOL. BTW, I am not insulting you, I am giving you a hard time. (I tend to be the 'class clown' of the fourm) If you don't lighten up and laugh a bit here and there, I may have to get angry and throw biscuits at you. :p ;)

I'm taking off for a bit...be back within the hour.

Vampmaster
4th Aug 2002, 23:46
Maybe Moebius staff is responsible for Raziel not being able to constrict. It could effect him differently like removing one of his abilities (constrict because it was his most recent). The effect could last longer on Raziel than the blade. (I don't know why though.)

Non-existent
5th Aug 2002, 01:13
Umah: *sigh* Yeah, did you read my response to warp? I did say that the piece of soul was used in drawing the Brothers' Souls back. God, that part was not in question. warp said that it was the vampiric properties of Kain's portion of soul that made the Brothers vampires in turn, I disputed that. Amy's statement, combined with the Manual, and Morty's own raising of Kain, support me when I said that it was not the vampiric properties of Kain's portion that made the Brothers vampires.

|

This is an aside, it is right here to be upfront before I get into the rest.

BTW, I am not insulting you, I am giving you a hard time. (I tend to be the 'class clown' of the fourm) If you don't lighten up and laugh a bit here and there, I may have to get angry and throw biscuits at you. You do realize that saying that means in fact you were insulting me but you do not want to receive insults in kind?

I have been terse, often bordering on, and sounding belligerent, but I have kept it civil. I no doubt will appear to be less civil in turn, that is because for all your claiming your joking the tone is not one of humor, so excuse me if I am short with you. As for laughing, well, you do not know me, I pretty much left the forums a month or so before you came on, I laugh long and hard, you know the joke with Elzevir?, yeah, me and warp (primarily) started that. So, if you think I do not have a sense of humor, and are trying to deflect that to make me seem the bad guy with my response, fine, let others believe what they will. Your post was not civil, was insulting, and now you try to deflect any flak you will catch by putting a rather pitiful disclaimer at the bottom. Let me say, I am now impatient and really the thought of being civil is not pleasant right now, but I will do my best to continue to be, unlike yourself, apparently.

|

To get back on schdule:

There was no tangent. If you had noticed I was connecting Mortanius's raising of Kain as a vampire is much the same as how Kain raised the Brothers, seize a soul out of the abyss, reanimate the corpse. Reanimated Corpse is undead and a vampire. Common thread is that a soul raised from abyss back into corpse makes a vampire. That is not a tangent, it was a connecting of two like incidents to support my argument, and it was obvious that that was what it was as well. Of course, I have now appropriately dumbed it down not to suffer false accusations again.


Kain is a technically a vampire (pureblood or not), this statement from Amy obviously expresses that his (Kain's) soul (a vampyric soul) drew the other creature's (Sarafan Bretheren's) souls back to their bodies. They were vampires from that point on.

I am sure that if Kain was a fairy princess and he did the same routine, the Brethren would all become fairies too. (LOL). If he were human, it would be the same thing, the souls would return as humans.
This is where Morty came into play. Kain was raised in a form almost identical to how he raised the brothers, only the portion of Soul to 'Draw the Soul back to the Corpse' is different. Morty either seized the soul outright or was able to circumvent the price Kain needed to pay to raise the corpse.

The one thing remains constant between Kain's becoming a vampire and the brothers: A soul was was drawn back into the corpse, the reanimated Corpse became a vampire. There is no indication that Kain's portion of soul is the sole thing responsible, or responsible even in part, in the Brothers being afflicted vampirism after their subsequent resurrection. The Portion of the soul seems to play more a part in their stability of physical form than their vampirism. That is to say, if Kain was a human, and raised the brothers like that, they would still be undead beings, and quite likely vampires, if not simple zombies, there may be a form of the more power used securing soul and corpse a higher form of undead results (theorhetically vampires would be the highest or close to it form of undead).

Amy's statement does not even give an indication that Kain's portion of soul was anything more than Bait to draw the Brother's soul back to their corpse and make their forms stable (which would explain why Melchiah is more devolved and zombie like in nature, the power to secure his form's stability was not enough).

As for this:
Put two and two together with Mortanius. He is the Guardian of Death for crying out loud. Obviously he has connections to dead souls and the underworld. He has the means (and the knowledge) to fufill what was described in the game manual. Mortanius did not draw Kain's soul back to Kain in the same manner as Kain. He did not issue "CPR" (LOL) to Kain at any point of the BO1 opening FMV. (Do correct me if I viewed the FMV wrong though).

Obviously you missed how I made the connection that the soul being brought from the underworld is what creates a vampire, not what the raiser is. Morty took a soul from the underworld, that soul was Kain's and he became a vampire. Kain drew souls from the underworld, they were Raz and Co. they were raised as vampires. The only other function that Kain's soul appeared to have (besides an initial attraction) was to make the brothers physical forms stable so they did not decay, hence Melchiah decays and appears to need more than just blood but, perhaps flesh as well. Now, I already said that Morty, being who he is, may not have had to use his own Soul to lure the souls back (or maybe he did in a seperate way, who knows, Amy just said necromancy, which actually says nothing).


This is totally different than what Kain did.

Try this scenario:

Kain dies and meets Mortanius (who has his agendas)
Mortanius steals a soul from the abyss (which in this context could also include the spectral realm) which is the soul of a deceased vampire. (And you cannot sit here and expect me to buy that no vampires ever died either through murder or whatever the cause).
Kain returns as a vampire and MUST feed in order to sustain himself. (Vampirism requires blood, hence the "body demanding the blood sacrifice" which he obtained from villagers and blood fountains in BO1).

1. How are Amy's words threadbare? She's been with the series from the beginning. What she's just going to talk out of her butt now? BS She was quite clear and I think you are making a lot more out of it than there actually is.

2. I have established that Mortanius did not perform the same technique that Kain used (Unless you can prove that the FMV of BO1 lied).

3. You are right, Amy does not imply anything. She says flat out (Read the quote) That "Kain must donate a portion of HIS spirit. Not Mickey Mouse's not Mortanius' or anyone else in the history of existence. It has to be KAIN's

4. I am not disputing the fact that Amy didn't have a hand in the game manual. But obviously she knows the difference between Kain's raising technique and Mortanius' raising technique. Also, I am sure that game manual was edited and adapted to fit in the amount of pages that it did. All manuals are. I've worked on a newspaper staff and you cut what you need to fit and look appropriate.

5. And what the heck were you trying to get at with this?
Do you just plan on repeating what I have already said?

As for Hennig's words being threadbare: They told us what we already knew. Before she ever answered that we knew Kain used a portion of his soul to draw back the brothers. She does not say whether it was his portion that imparted vampirism or if it the simple act of resurrection that gives them their undeath. She does not tell us anything new about Morty and his raising, I doubt anyone thought he used any technique but one that was necromantic, though no details are given on what the Necromantic act required to complete.

That is thread bare, they say squat that we did not know, and yet you are holding them up like they are a detailed account of the life of Abraham Lincoln. They are not detailed and they did not provide any new information on the raising of Kain or the Brothers, that is threadbare. So, threadbare as in meaning, 'common' because the information was common, undetailed, and thus not truly as substantial as one would think when it is considered that information was already possessed.

Let me ask you something: Where have I said anything that disagrees with Hennig says, besides the possibility that Morty himself used a piece of his own soul in some way to raise Kain? You like to say tripe like "He did not issue "CPR" (LOL) to Kain at any point of the BO1 opening FMV." I never said Morty used the same method as Kain. Get that? Huh? I said he might've used a piece of his soul, which is possible that he did but did not have to permanently donate a portion. The simple answer of "It was necromancy" happens to say squat about what he did to raise it.

So, no, as to point number 2, I already said Morty used his own technique, much like your claiming in point number three that I said Kain did not use his soul you are trying to say I did not say Morty used a differing technique. He could have danced the hula and it does not change the essential sameness (yes, it is a word) between what he did and what Kain did, he pulled a soul out of the abyss (actually from Hell for Kain, but then, who knows where the brothers were) and raised the corpse of said person. The result of taking this corpse from the abyss and reanimating the corpse of that soul resulted in a vampire. Methodology may have been differing for Morty and Kain but certain actions were identical, along with the results (the pulling of soul out of abyss to place in corpse and the vampire resulting).

Again I ask, when did I say Kain did not have to donate a portion of his soul? I didn't. Let me thank you in advance for claiming I did to make yourself look superior. (incase you are wondering, read point number 3 in the blocked quote of you above)


There is nothing to suggest that their vampyric gift would prevent the vampires from evolving. Each one of them did evolve regardless (Kain included). The amount of blood they ingest sustains their life, not their appearance.

Example:

If we eat (a large quantity of food each time we eat), and we don't excercise, then we get fat and our appearance changes. If we eat healthy, without gorging ourselves and maintain proper excercise then our metabolism is enhanced and we keep a good looking form. (And no I am not suggesting the Bretheren weren't following a well balanced diet and excercise plan...this isn't Jenny Craig - it's LOK...LOL)

I am willing to bet that the vampirism was also weaker in each Lieutenant. Only reversed. The weaker members would require more blood to sustain themselves where as Raziel, Turel and maybe even Dumah would not. They could probably go for long periods without feasting on blood. (Kind of like a snake would off prey). (I am sure Kain could also sustain himself for longer periods, as well as Vorador and Janos could).

First, Evolve and Devolve is a matter of perspective. All they are is a fancy word for change, like Progress. They actually mean absolutely nothing more than a creature changed.

Second, to this, "I am willing to bet that the vampirism was also weaker in each Lieutenant." I already explained, thanks for ignoring it, or did you think I was mentioning Zombies because I liked the word.

It is not that the vampirism is weaker in more that it is the state of undeath is. Melchiah's brood appears to have consumed more than blood, they appear to have consumed flesh too. "Raziel V.O.: I didn’t recognize these flayed wracks of flesh. Their scent was vampiric, but they gnawed upon their victim’s carcass like dogs. They are not simply tearing open arteries, they are actually chewing on the flesh itself, and they are all rotting.

Also, you do realize that what I have said before accounts for what you just said about consuming blood more frequently. If the portion of Kain's soul was to draw a soul back and make their form more stable then obviously the one that consumes more blood has a weaker, more unstable form, hence Melchiah, he has long life, still feasts on blood (and perhaps flesh, that is unknown), advances through vampiric states, inother words a vampire in all senses of the words, but happens to have flesh that cannot support his returned soul.

To all who read this I apologize for the length of this post. I am quite verbose at times and use quote blocks alot.

Further more, I must apologize to the readers who find this disjointed, and sections oddly placed. Referencing back and forth between the quoted post and what I am writing down often becomes odd sounding.

warpsavant
5th Aug 2002, 07:30
I like the colors....

keepittrue
5th Aug 2002, 08:37
NE, I have to disagree with you on a few things.

First off, who says Mobeius' staff cant affect the Reaver. I think he just chose not to because of if he did that would mess up his own plans, and I dont think he would do that. The Reaver contains Vampiric powers, so why wouldnt the staff affect it if he chose to???????? I think Mobeius chooses what he wants it to affect.

About the raising of the Vamps, Amy did clearly state that once Kain drew back the soul of the corpse with a portion of his soul it at that point raises up as a Vampire. Morty is the death guardian and is well aware of how to raise Vamps, first off he had to use Kains soul witch was in the underworld(if he didnt use Kains soul it would screw with this story so so much), and it looks to me that he changed Kain into a Vampire in the underworld(his soul). Now from that point on Kain was a Vampire.

On the Reaver sucking Raziels soul is something I dont agree with. I cant see how Raziel is near the brink of oblivion but he is only having his soul transfered from one body to another(the Reaver). If Raziel is near the brink of oblivion he must be being eaten by the wraith blade. Raziels soul is what is being eaten, a soul does not have a real shape so whatever object it inhabits is the shape it takes so if it when inside the Reaver then his soul not be in danger of anything except being trapped NOT oblivion. So if his soul is near oblivion it has to be eaten by a soul sucker which is the Wraith Blade.

Umah Bloodomen
5th Aug 2002, 09:39
Originally posted by Non-existent
You do realize that saying that means in fact you were insulting me but you do not want to receive insults in kind?

I have been terse, often bordering on, and sounding belligerent, but I have kept it civil. I no doubt will appear to be less civil in turn, that is because for all your claiming your joking the tone is not one of humor, so excuse me if I am short with you. As for laughing, well, you do not know me, I pretty much left the forums a month or so before you came on, I laugh long and hard, you know the joke with Elzevir?, yeah, me and warp (primarily) started that. So, if you think I do not have a sense of humor, and are trying to deflect that to make me seem the bad guy with my response, fine, let others believe what they will. Your post was not civil, was insulting, and now you try to deflect any flak you will catch by putting a rather pitiful disclaimer at the bottom. Let me say, I am now impatient and really the thought of being civil is not pleasant right now, but I will do my best to continue to be, unlike yourself, apparently.

This brought a big smile to my face (and with it a continuous laugh as well). Go ahead, insult me. What do I care? First off, my "disclaimer" was aimed at you because you are (excuse me for being blunt) getting your panties all in a bunch over a video game and it's making you look like a ****. Why are you teetering on sounding beligerent? I am not being beligerent, nor do I plan to be. My "joking tone" is one of humor...sarcastic humor. I've been sarcastic most of my life, and on this forum is no exception. I certainly allow your opinions and the method in which you convey them through type. I hope you aren't asking me to "cater to you" because you don't appreciate sarcasm. :rolleyes: Because it won't happen - to you or to anyone else. I am not clear on the joke with Elzevir. Unless you are referring to Turelzevir. Why are you stressing out over a simple debate? This debate has been civil and I, nor anyone else who has posted in this thread seems to be stressing over it's contents. Warp was sarcastic earlier, does that mean he has resorted to being non-civil as well?

As for the subject at hand. I will get back to you on those when I return from work. I will do my best to clarify when I am being sarcastic from now on btw. <sarcasm>Although I think that will borderline on "catering". </sarcasm>

Binky
5th Aug 2002, 11:05
I feel like an ancient trying to steer between Scylla and Charybdis in this thread...

Why don't we just assume that to create a Kain-descended vampire, one needs (one body+one soul+piece of Kain's soul), and that it doesn't matter which component inflicts the vampirism? Perhaps they all work in synergy :D. Somehow, the "quantity" of the soul is connected to the "quality" of the vampire, but well... I'll leave this to magic.
Wasn't the important part here that Kain has to donate a piece of his soul?
So, for all we know, there is no reason to assume that souls - not only as energy, but as - well, souls - cannot be divided in Nosgoth... Probably they even can be.

That was just my two soulpieces on the dividing of souls...

Now, for some fun...
On the cat: I've never heard the variant of the box that releases the poison upon opening... Non-existent, if I understand you correctly, you say that history is observing Raziel's state the whole time (to clarify what I'm writing about: the final scene of SR2). Well, the whole of my idea is that it isn't... that when Raz speaks of the glimmer of temporal distortion, the flicker of probability, it's - well, just it: a moment where Heisenberg's Principle (aka free will) kicks in. I don't like the sesquipedelian style, but this is what I assumed the paradox moments to be: moments unaffected by what destiny is supposed to be; moments when free will can act, the only times when it is not an illusion. Very rare, and very short, but existent even in Nosgoth.

And on the Blood Reaver and the wraith blade and sentience:
I got really lost in here... In SR1, the wraith blade definitely wasn't sentient; its sentience awoken only in the beginning of SR2, when it healed the physical blade; even then, I don't think it was really sentient; perhaps more like an animal: instinctive... NE, you said that the act of healing the physical blade required recognition and amassing resources from the wraith blade; and Raziel says something about the wraith blade becoming a sentient parasite... And yet, all the wraith blade's acts always struck me as very... well, instinctive; animalistic. Recognition? An animal can recognise another: of the same species, of a species preying upon its species... Healing? The eating of plants that help cure wounds? All the result of imprinting of behaviour early in childhood. Perhaps such a magical thing as the Reaver is would simply recognise itself instinctively?

And the same perhaps goes for the Blood Reaver: perhaps it is not sentient, but, being a magical thing as it is, it has some sort of instinct, due to the bloodlust it was imbued with?

Heh. I think I've just remembered a nice analogy for what I'm trying to say here... (I LOVE analogies, as you probably know by now...)
"It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him."

warpsavant
6th Aug 2002, 00:36
Instinct Will Reflex Action, Binky makes some interesting points.

Kains spirit was breathed into the Corpses. This made the bodies vampiric and forced the souls to re-inhabit the body. Since the manual says it is the body that demands the blood sacrifice, to me it seems that Kains portion of Soul made the Sarafan bodies change.

I thought this was similiar to the B.R. taking a portion of Raziels spirit and becoming like that. Hopefully this isn't as confusing as what I said earlier.

Yeah, me and Keep discussed that before, about the Vampire properties of the Blood Reaver being affected by the Staff if the the reason the wraithblade is effected is because of the Vampire nature originally imbued into the blade. Maybe the shell of the sword protects or Moebius just wants it that way. I dunno.

darien_specter
6th Aug 2002, 01:35
Hoo boy, this is a good one, and all in the weekend I was gone... Well, now I'll weigh in, and possibly get yelled at, but hey, it's all well thought out, and I don't care who yells at me...

Well, as I have thought before, Binky is the master. I think he puts it most eloquently. (And he quotes Tolkien, always a plus in my book. :D) Allow me to expand on one of his points, that of the twinning of the souls. Raziel says,
"...the paradoxical moment when my twinned soul hovered both outside and inside the Reaver blade... This was the instant - the glimmer of temporal distortion - Kain had been counting on all along. This was the edge of the coin - the minute flicker of probability upon which Kain had gambled everything." (Boldface added for emphasis.) There is then, as Binky has well put it, a moment when Raziel's soul exists both within his body as himself and within the Reaver as the wraithblade, twinned by the paradox. In that moment, a moment Kain has explicitly awaited, he pulls the Reaver from Raziel's chest - at the moment when his soul exists in both places. And then Kain declares that Raziel is free to pursue his true destiny.

As to the original question of the thread - why did the Reaver turn on Raziel? - I have already given a theory, elsewhere. (I'll find that in a bit, and edit in a link here. EDIT: they are here, see below.) In brief, it is my contention, for reasons more detailed in other threads, that the Reaver - originally forged, as we are told, as only a blood-stealing weapon - was also made with the express purpose of drawing into itself Raziel's soul, thus creating the Soul Reaver. I also believe that this was intended by the ancients to occur in Janos' retreat; but as they were interrupted by the Sarafan, history records Janos' death, and Raziel's vengeful pursuit that ends, according to Moebius' designs, in Raziel being utterly consumed in the Reaver. But in sparing Kain and permitting his continued existence in history, Kain was then freed to be there in the chapter-house to perform the role that Janos could not. And so Raziel and the Soul Reaver both exist in the new history, as the ancients originally intended.

For more details, supporting materials, and my answers to the "Why would they need a Soul Reaver?" question, check these links:

Dsicussion of the Janos pulls the Reaver theory (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1037)
My "Paintings and Prophecy" thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=195)
My original Reaver theory thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196)

I think those are all the threads that are relevant. If anything else needs to be explained, ask, and I will greatly enjoy doing so... :D

keepittrue
6th Aug 2002, 02:43
Originally posted by darien_specter
Hoo boy, this is a good one, and all in the weekend I was gone... Well, now I'll weigh in, and possibly get yelled at, but hey, it's all well thought out, and I don't care who yells at me...

Well, as I have thought before, Binky is the master. I think he puts it most eloquently. (And he quotes Tolkien, always a plus in my book. :D) Allow me to expand on one of his points, that of the twinning of the souls. Raziel says, There is then, as Binky has well put it, a moment when Raziel's soul exists both within his body as himself and within the Reaver as the wraithblade, twinned by the paradox. In that moment, a moment Kain has explicitly awaited, he pulls the Reaver from Raziel's chest - at the moment when his soul exists in both places. And then Kain declares that Raziel is free to pursue his true destiny.

:D

You need to read your quote again, when it said twin soul he meant the wraith blade.

darien_specter
6th Aug 2002, 04:55
And why would the wraith blade be hovering both inside and outside the sword? For anything to be both inside and out, it must be duplicated...

warpsavant
6th Aug 2002, 05:49
Why did the wraithblade try to go inside the Reaver? To protect Raziel?

Binky
6th Aug 2002, 09:27
Actually, when I wrote of the "twinned" soul, I meant a duplicated soul of the current Raziel, not the (soul of the current Raziel + the wraithblade). The wraithblade I did not take into account at all; because in all the previous instances of that scene - all the previous times it happened, when it happened the way Moebius wanted it to happen - it had to be both the wraith blade and the soul of the current Raziel that had to enter the Blood Reaver; or, perhaps, only the soul of the current Raziel, the wraith blade disappearing somewhere, or mingling with it, or whatever...

(Minor matter, which actually is no matter at all, and is just here for completeness: I'm not a he.)

(Yay! I just saw I'm no longer a Junior Member!)

Vampmaster
6th Aug 2002, 21:36
I don't think the wraith blade would dissappear. It would probably just uncoil from the physical blade leaving the other of Raziels soul inside the physical blade. Then it would just wait there for a suitable new host to come along. I think this would be Kain.
I think when Mortanius made Kain a vampire, he simply did it by refusing to let Kains soul leave it's (dead) body in the first place. That way he wouldn't need to lure it back using another soul.

keepittrue
6th Aug 2002, 22:08
Originally posted by darien_specter
And why would the wraith blade be hovering both inside and outside the sword? For anything to be both inside and out, it must be duplicated...

Read the DC, it says his twinned soul was outside and inside Reaver blade. If it was his soul he would not say twinned, he would simply say when my soul was outside and inside Reaver blade. We know Raziel was talking about the Wraith Blade anyway because thats the one that uncoiled itself from Raziel and was connected to the Reaver.

FangsFirst
7th Aug 2002, 01:37
by my mark it was that the entity in the blade that ate souls was raziel... ok this is time wacky stuff so it's hard to know where to start:

raziel had to get into the blade to be the entity in the blade.
this is what was happening when it went after him, because this was the blade in the past that didn't have him in it yet (so it would maybe only suck blood at that point). And destiny said that was the time for him to be in it, so the blade was forced by fate/destiny to go after him so that he would be in it.

that's what I think anyway. maybe someone already said that though...

darien_specter
7th Aug 2002, 03:45
I again agree with Binky; I would say that the wraith blade is, at this point, little more than a catalyst. In any event, the wraith blade IS his "twinned soul"; it has just taken that form after its millennia of imprisonment in the Reaver. So somewhere, in some lost beginning of the cycle, Raziel's soul entered the Reaver directly from him. The wraith blade - "symbiotically bound" - would most likely just get pulled in along with him, or cease to exist - but that's not terribly relevant.

What IS relevant is that, again, there is a moment when his "twinned soul hovered both inside and outside the Reaver blade." This can't be a poetic description of the wraith blade because the wraith blade can't be in two places at once excepting a paradox, and if it was the wraith blade that was entering, what loss would that be to Raziel's life? In which case we never have the Soul Reaver.

If not the wraith blade, then the only other target for the reference is that it is Raziel's own soul, which must enter the Reaver for the wraith blade to even exist, duplicated at the moment of paradox. And if his soul is twinned, both in his body and the blade, then when Kain pulls the blade the two are seperated and both continue. As I said before, I think this is what the ancients intended. The links I posted already. And so, he says "twinned" because that is what has happened; his soul has been duplicated at that moment.

VM: No other person is a suitable "host" for the wraith blade; if Kain could take it, I expect he would have when he shattered the blade on Raziel. I do agree about Mortanius, and I think I made an extended point about that in another thread.

(Binky's a she? Be still my heart... ;) )

EDIT: Fixed the damn tags again...

keepittrue
7th Aug 2002, 05:30
Good one Darien, I have to think on that one.

One thing I wanted to point out tho is that the Wraith Blade is a Soul Reaver and it was eating Raziels soul.

Also, why cant the Wraith Blade be inside and outside the Reaver, who says it cant be?????

Another thing, I dont get how Raziels Soul is gets duplicated, please clarify that. If it is being consumed how does it get twinned????

At the end destiny was coming full circle to meet itself, a paradox had not happened yet untill Kain PULLED the Reaver out, not before.

One more thing, if his soul was duplicated inside and outside blade, than that means the wraith blade, his soul inside the and his soul outside the blade exist, that makes 3 of his souls.

Please be more specific on your explanation. Nevertheless good theory.

Binky
7th Aug 2002, 10:01
Allow me.

The theory goes like this:
The Ancients wanted Raziel to wield the blade, for some weird reason (the Binding).
The humans (most specifically Moebius) didn't want Raz to realise his destiny. Moebius is the one who wants Raziel inside the Reaver, because inside the Reaver is probably the only place where he cannot wield it. Raziel is pretty hard to imprison, after all.
Now, I don't know how this happened the first time it happened, but ever since this first instance, there was a Raziel's soul trapped inside the Reaver always after the Sarafan Raziel's death. A cycle happens:

...-> Sarafan Raziel dies -> Blue Raziel sucked into the Reaver -> Vampire Raziel born and destroyed -> Reaver shattered on Blue Raziel -> Blue Raziel kills Sarafan Raziel ->...

To escape this cycle with bringing relatively little harm to himself, Kain must both account for the future/past (i.e. a wraith blade must exist), and allow for a full, unharmed Blue Raziel to exist.

I hope we agree on these points, I intended this merely as a summary of what Kain intends to do in SR2.

Now, two assumptions:
One, it has to be the copy of this Blue Raziel's (i.e the one from this cycle) soul that enters the Reaver. Not the wraith blade (the copy from the previous cycle). Otherwise, there would be no need for Kain's "history-defying act", because the wraith blade would reenter the Reaver, and Raziel would keep his own little adorable soul.
In other words, the wraith blade does not really count in this moment as a copy of Raziel's soul with regard to entering the Reaver and satisfying history's needs; quite on the contrary, it is the agent that pulls the soul into the Reaver.

Keepittrue, you wrote that the wraith blade was eating the soul; but, as Raziel said, it could not devour itself. It was perhaps joining with it, mingling with it, whatever. For certain, pulling it into the blade. NOT consuming it.
This means that yes, for a brief moment there would be 3 copies of the soul in the same place. The wraith blade devouring/pulling the current Raziel's soul into the physical blade, and the current Raziel's soul twinned.

The second assumption is that to account for the wraith blade, and for Raziel, to exist, two copies of Raziel's soul must exist. I.e. the history-defying moment doesn't happen like this: part of Raziel's soul enters the blade, another part stays with Raziel.



And now, the speculation part, which, hopefully, will answer the questions:
To start with, a bit of high school physics (if there are here any who deal in physics, please don't laugh at my crude and ill-conceived descriptions):

Take a cat. Put it into a tight box. Attach a bottle with poison to the box. The poison will be released, and kill the cat, when a single radioactive atom disintegrates.
It can not be determined precisely when the atom will disintegrate, only by a probability function, right? This means also that you will never know when the cat is dead unless you open the box, performing a check... until you check, the cat can be said to be both dead and alive.
This is Schroedinger's cat: until you check, thus ending the experiment, you will never know for sure... The very act of observation collapses the experiment, but until the observation is done, everything - precisely everything - is possible.

Another example: take a piece of paper with two slits in it:

-----I I----I I----- paper

Make light shine from the top or the bottom of the post, in the middle of the page. You'll get interference pattern: half the light goes through the left slit, half through the right, right? Now, shine only one photon, one unit of light, you can't get less.
If you install a camera (do the check) at the slits' level, you'll find out that the photon moved either through the left slit, or through the right. But if you install a camera only after the slits, you'll get interference pattern. The photon moved through both slits.

OK, so now. Let's say that it is possible that Raziel's soul is both inside and outside the physical blade - because until you check, you can never know where it is, correct? The trouble, which Non-existent pointed out, is that in Nosgoth, history is ever-present to make the check. That's why everything is determined, free will is an illusion, and so on. Well, my rebuttal is that perhaps that whole "waiting for the coin to land on its edge" Kain thingie was precisely about searching for a moment when history does not observe. Because for some reason (two Reavers in the same place, perhaps in addition to some space-time point) it can't. One such moment was when Raziel didn't kill Kain, as he probably previously always had. The other was in the final cutscene.

And that is precisely the reason why the "paradox" was only felt when Kain pulled out the blade: because it was only then that the check was done. It was only then that history could observe what the heck actually just happened!

Questions?

warpsavant
7th Aug 2002, 17:47
I think that's really far out!

But what happens to the wraithblade the first time?

darien_specter
7th Aug 2002, 17:56
Binky beat me to it. Good thing, because I wasn't sure how I was going to explain more, and Binky was brilliant...

Before someone says "That can't happen with the light! Who are you kidding? Quit watching Star Trek!", I'll just second that Binky explained that photon experiment exactly correctly. It boggles my mind a bit, but it is so, and has to do with the dual wave/particle nature of light... but you can go read it in a book if you want to know more. :p

I CAN add this one thing, about the moment of the paradox. You are right, "At the end destiny was coming full circle to meet itself;" this is how history originally bore out the story: at this point Raziel is utterly consumed by the Reaver. But as we saw when Raziel spared Kain, the historical change can only be wrought when there occurs that (seemingly inexplicable) moment of paradox. It seems reasonable to assume that the paradox always occurs, even if history is not altered; thus, before the change, Raziel either fails to resist or says "To hell with you" and smashes Kain with the Soul Reaver, but the paradox still occurs. So after this long explanation, Kain's pulling the Reaver is not itself the paradox, but is only made possible by the existence of the same paradox that also allows for the momentary twinning of Raziel's soul. Without this paradox, Kain could not have pulled the Reaver. The paradox came before, and allowed history to be changed.

EDIT: Just saw Warp's new question; like Binky said, I propose that the wraith blade was absorbed along with Raziel's soul, and dissolved into and comingling with it; the two becoming fully one, a process that seems to have already been occuring through their changing symbiosis. That's just a hypothesis, though; I'm not sure we can account for it yet.

warpsavant
7th Aug 2002, 18:27
Well, the only thing I think is fishy is this 2-3 souls thing. I was under the impression it was just the wraithblade slipping inside the Reaver, in effort to protect it's master from complete oblivion.

The wraithblade released its hold in Williams Chapel, it knew. So if Raziel cant let go of the stupid sword, I would think the wraithblade would do the only thing it could do to ensure its existence, and that's slip inside the blade itself.



Raziel V.O.:

I felt myself weakening... unable to hold on any longer.
The Reaver was too strong... the compulsion to simply let go too great...
Out of strength, Raziel surrenders his will. As he nears the brink of oblivion, a fluttering distortion tangibly begins, and Raziel approaches a dawning revelation -

Raziel V.O.:

And then... a growing sense of vertigo, and the familiar displacement...
... the paradoxical moment when my twinned soul hovered both outside and inside the Reaver blade...
This was the instant - the glimmer of temporal distortion - Kain had been counting on all along.
This was the edge of the coin - the minute flicker of probability upon which Kain had gambled everything.
Kain lunges forward - and with a massive, history-defying effort, tears the Reaver from Raziel's chest.



As he nears oblivion, the wraithblade is not oblivious!



Raziel V.O.:

Embracing it's twin, it's mirror self, the Reaver's long-dormant spirit was now fully aroused.
And for the first time, I felt the true presence of this other entity - wilful, ravenous, and deranged from thousands of years of imprisonment...
Then Reaver was now in command - and I, now merely it's helpless host, felt my soul being leeched to restore the blade.
Raziel watches in helpless horror as the Reaver draws his soul-energy through his arm and into the broken blade. The two halves of the Soul Reaver come together and are instantly re-fused.
Just before he is drained completely, the Reaver relents, and Raziel recovers control.

Raziel V.O.:

But the Reaver knew better than to destroy it's host - and just as I neared the brink of oblivion, the blade released it's hold on me.
As I recovered, I realized we were now bound together in a fragile alliance - the Reaver no longer merely my symbiotic weapon, but a sentient parasite, competing for control.



This is why I think the soul inside and outside is the wraithblade and not some 3rd soul that only appears momentarily.

keepittrue
7th Aug 2002, 19:32
Originally posted by Binky
Allow me.


Keepittrue, you wrote that the wraith blade was eating the soul; but, as Raziel said, it could not devour itself. It was perhaps joining with it, mingling with it, whatever. For certain, pulling it into the blade. NOT consuming it.
This means that yes, for a brief moment there would be 3 copies of the soul in the same place. The wraith blade devouring/pulling the current Raziel's soul into the physical blade, and the current Raziel's soul twinned.



One of the main reasons I dont think this is correct is, Raziel has a temporary body. If his soul was ONLY being transfered to the Reaver than how can he be near the brink of oblivion, as an almost dead. Another thing, the wraith blade/soul reaver in williams chapel was consuming Raziels Soul then, so explain that if he cant have his soul consumed by the soul reaver. Another thing, I dont get your logic on when Raziel is being consumed that there is 2 duplicated souls. Ex: Look at the snake on the ground, it explains it clearly to me. If Raziels soul is being consumed there is still ONE soul not 2, it does not get duplicated.

Some of the stuff you were saying I didnt get.

Vampmaster
7th Aug 2002, 20:47
I think when he says "twined" he means himself. The wraith blade is a twin and Raziel is are twin. He's simply saying that this is the event which caused his soul to be twinned. Raziels soul becomes twinned the moment he goes back to a point in time where there is already one. I don't think his soul was made into two when he was hovering inside and outside the blade. I think the idea was that Raziels soul would be hovering between his body and the blade permanantly after this.

Binky, that was Young's double slits. I did the experiment with lasers last year in physics. :D

warpsavant
7th Aug 2002, 21:55
I guess it's whatever was drawn into the Reaver and then the wraithblade on the outside.

His soul has to grow back then, doesn't it? I mean, well I dont know what I mean.

Mordred
7th Aug 2002, 23:34
Thats what i was trying to say, this circle if fine apart from the fact the first time round is imposable, as Raziel need the Wraith blade to get trapped in the Reaver, but to get the Wraith Blade he has to be Trapped in the Reaver.

it just dont work

keepittrue
7th Aug 2002, 23:39
I guess there is more to meets the eye, I thought I had it but I guess not. I still dont know about his soul duplicating, it sounds too fishy.

darien_specter
7th Aug 2002, 23:57
But that is why I have been saying that the ancients either orginally forged or (more likely) later modified the Reaver to absorb the copy of Raziel's soul. That gives a justification, rather than a random, seemingly inexplicable event. Remember that he feared the Reaver in Janos' retreat as well, and felt the same compulsion to pick it up. More explanation is in the threads for which I put in links above.

Warp, again, for anything to be inside and outside the Reaver it has to be duplicated, it cannot be both places at once. Even if it is the wraithblade, it still must be duplicated. And if the wraithblade had just left Raziel and entered the Reaver to save Raziel, then it wouldn't still be on his arm when he falls into the Spectral plane.

keep, what does the snake have to do with anything? Raziel does specifically mention his "twinned soul;" and if the Reaver was merely consuming his soul at this point, only the wraith blade can do that. The Reaver alone does not have the power to consume souls; it is Raziel's soul within the blade that does this. So if the Reaver merely consumed him, then his soul would never enter the Reaver, and the wraith blade could not exist. (I think here it is the difference between "consume" and "absorb;" if you consume a hamburger, it does not take up residence inside you as a hamburger. This is the sense in which Raziel and the Reaver devour souls.) As for William's chapel, I propose that this is not so much "consumption" as it is more of a "transfusion" of sorts. Here's Raziel when that happens:
The Reaver was now in command - and I, now merely it's helpless host, felt my soul being leeched to restore the blade.

But the Reaver knew better than to destroy it's host - and just as I neared the brink of oblivion, the blade released it's hold on me.
As I recovered, I realized we were now bound together in a fragile alliance - the Reaver no longer merely my symbiotic weapon, but a sentient parasite, competing for control. I included the last bit to expand upon the metaphor: a parasite, like a leech, will not drain all the blood from its host, because that means the loss of the host. Or if you were to volunteer to be host for a transfusion, again, it would be senseless to kill you to save someone else. So here again, the Reaver was not consuming Raziel's soul, any more than eating a hamburger would cause a broken arm to heal. The Reaver was healing itself, and Raziel is the only "soul match", if you will. No one else could heal it.

Ergo Raziel's soul cannot be consumed by the Soul Reaver.

warpsavant
8th Aug 2002, 04:04
Warp, again, for anything to be inside and outside the Reaver it has to be duplicated, it cannot be both places at once. Even if it is the wraithblade, it still must be duplicated. And if the wraithblade had just left Raziel and entered the Reaver to save Raziel, then it wouldn't still be on his arm when he falls into the Spectral plane.



Not if it's half in and half out. If the wraithblade left Raziel and the wraithblade sensed imminent oblivion, I do not see why it would not try to be absorbed in it as well, and the instant the wraithblade starts to go inside the Reaver it would be both inside and outside the blade.

Raziels soul was drained slowly and tortuously, so, at some point a large portion of his Soul was drawn into the Reaver blade, while at the same time some of it is left in his body.

It's that portion that was drawn into the blade that becomes the wraithblade, and this is how he has a twin soul.

Whatever portion of soul Raiel lost to the reaver however, I am assuming must somehow grow back, or not. Similiar to Kain and the soul he gave his Lts, he gave each one a little less cause there was only so much soul he could give. But I'm guessing his soul had to regenerate.

I agree with Darien and Binky I guess. I think a portion of his soul was absorbed into the Reaver, I'm not exactly sure on how you guys come to this conclusion, but thats okay, becasue we still have the same conclusion, and that os only a portion of Raz's soul ended up in the Reaver. It's unclear if this enough to create the SR, but I think it isl.

Also, this is the first time, that's how it's possible. They didnt change history, they re-wrote it. So Raziel NEVER was trapped in the Reaver, just like William was NEVER the Nemesis. When Kain broke the Reaver on Raziel, he released the portion that had just been trapped.

I still dont know how everyones's souls grow back and I know for a fact N.E. won't buy souls growing back/regenerating.

darien_specter
8th Aug 2002, 04:42
Hmm, warp, that makes sense too. Under your theory, then, (correct me if I'm wrong) Kain pulled the Reaver at the last possible moment, allowing the Soul Reaver's creation, though possibly at slightly diminished strength, while Raziel is left just enough to slowly heal. Now that you mention it, I think I made a smart-*** crack somewhere else about this being a candidate for a reason to justify reducing Raziel's health spiral to gimpy levels again for SR3... Well, at least we three are sure of the outcome, and I think you agreed with my justifications once, so there we are... :)

warpsavant
8th Aug 2002, 04:58
Yes I remeber you did say that. They can take all his abilities away, even the ones he took from his vampire brethren.

I don't think they'll go that far. Has to more than 3 Reaver puzzles though. And 3 Reaver puzzles and Glyphs for each Pillar, thats 12 puzzles. That's alot of puzzles.

I also do not believe there is any other way to look at this. I just played the end again, (I cheated and used the wraithblade to kill the brothers) and I think you 2 are correct. The wraithblade is just floating around, it never enters the Reaver, its his soul that is being drawn into the Reaver and the wraithblade around it that makes it "inside and out."

darien_specter
8th Aug 2002, 05:12
That sounds like a nice cheat... does it make those combats faster? Do their souls still escape?

A lot of puzzles sounds fine to me... maybe some smallish puzzles to get those enhanced Reaver abilities...

So we three are agreed. A potent force to be reckoned with indeed... :D

keepittrue
8th Aug 2002, 05:13
I guess I agree on most of it, but a few that I dont.

Very good points, I think I'll chill for now on this.

warpsavant
8th Aug 2002, 06:23
The souls still float away. They are all special and blue and that is in my mind Mortanius work.

Malek and Moebius appear to come from the room the Circle Members are slaughtered in. That would mean 8 of the 9 Gaurdians were there, so I;m figuring Mortanius had to be there and who better to make there souls float away.

If you fight them with a wraithblade that can suck souls, then you will hear what sounds like a soul being eaten and the Meter rises, but you don't see any soul being eaten the blue one still floats away anyway!

If you fight them with a Reaver that does not suck souls (like the one in the beg of the game) nothing happens at all they have no regular souls just the blue ones. I havent doen it this particular way in awhile though I could be wrong. This way is very hard, cause you always lose the Reaver when they hit you.

And no matter what when you kill Razafan the Reaver magically appears. Even if you like pick up Dumahs staff it turns into the Reaver. If you spear em its cool too. Kill them with there own weapons.

Okay I said too much

Binky
8th Aug 2002, 10:24
I'm soo jealous of you, Vampmaster! I never had such cool physics lessons!

OK, so let's leave the matter of doubling of souls, because I can see that my argument of "why the heck it shouldn't be doubled, if no one is looking" (because this is what this physics basically boils down to) doesn't really convince anyone - although of all that theory, this is the only one with serious basis in physics, :D But who am I to speak of physics!

Warp, blue? Care for a screenshot?

warpsavant
8th Aug 2002, 18:38
Yes, the souls of the Sarafan Brethren are blue. I have PS2 I can't take screens. If I could every single Sr2 PS2 pwner would have a Gameshark. =F

But if you just play the end they always have blue souls that float away straight up into the air. Cool sound fx too.

Binky
8th Aug 2002, 19:17
How sad...
At least: what kind of blue? Raziel blue, navy blue, sea blue, greenish blue? :rolleyes:

warpsavant
8th Aug 2002, 19:37
Didn't you see the blue souls float away? It happens every time I play. Sometimes you cant see them float away, because of the camera angle. But you always hear them.

They are blue, like water blue. Similar to the blue that the wraithblade leaves behind if you swimg it.

Non-existent
9th Aug 2002, 04:18
Umah:
This brought a big smile to my face (and with it a continuous laugh as well). Go ahead, insult me. What do I care? First off, my "disclaimer" was aimed at you because you are (excuse me for being blunt) getting your panties all in a bunch over a video game and it's making you look like a ****. Why are you teetering on sounding beligerent? I am not being beligerent, nor do I plan to be. My "joking tone" is one of humor...sarcastic humor. I've been sarcastic most of my life, and on this forum is no exception. I certainly allow your opinions and the method in which you convey them through type. I hope you aren't asking me to "cater to you" because you don't appreciate sarcasm. Because it won't happen - to you or to anyone else. I am not clear on the joke with Elzevir. Unless you are referring to Turelzevir. Why are you stressing out over a simple debate? This debate has been civil and I, nor anyone else who has posted in this thread seems to be stressing over it's contents. Warp was sarcastic earlier, does that mean he has resorted to being non-civil as well?

As for the subject at hand. I will get back to you on those when I return from work. I will do my best to clarify when I am being sarcastic from now on btw. <sarcasm>Although I think that will borderline on "catering". </sarcasm>

First: Forgive the lateness of my reply. Harry Harrison is a good author, crazy at times, intriguing many times. So far the first two books to the Eden Trilogy are pretty good.

Actually, that was the first time you made me laugh. If you think I am upset... Well, you simply reinforce you know nothing about me, distance can do that, I posted maybe ten times shortly before and after you joined. Now, if I was upset I would have done what you did just then and before, insulted you, and made claims about how you are 'obviously' stressed out over this.

No, I was, and am, not upset, in fact, I enjoy debates, particularly ones that involve deep ethical and metaphysical problems, such as this particular one with the Reaver. I do not readily compromise, that is true, that does not mean I take the game seriously. Hell, I probably take this game less seriously than any other regular poster here. True, when it comes to possible story holes I keep pressing on questions that some might consider ridiculous, but they are there for thought and to avoid possible story holes. True, I ask ridiculous questions like how can portions of a soul achieve sentience, which most people would see as irrelevant, and clearing up the question is worthwhile for nothing more than to get ideas out there.

As a matter of fact, I like how apparently I am upset/stressing over this, it is refreshing to have one so perceptive as thyself tell me how I am 'upset'. For how 'upset' I am it is amazing how relaxed I feel and how my respiration and breathing are, and have been, normal. Boy, if you had not warned me about my apparent (to you at least) stress levels I would be in serious danger of a heart attack right now, thank you. Phew, cardiac rest avoided.

"My "joking tone" is one of humor...sarcastic humor. I've been sarcastic most of my life, and on this forum is no exception." LOL. Yeah, whatever. I could tell when you were attempting to be funny, it was much less sarcastic humor than it was slapstick, such as with the Jenny Craig comment (no, that was not sarcastic), throwing biscuits, and the drooling over Raz (pre-fallen I am guessing though you do not clarify, of course maybe you like the emaciated, no-lower jaw look).

"I am not clear on the joke with Elzevir." Elzevir being the master of all Evil. Basically, before Elzevir was presented as the Ultimate Evil in Nosgoth no one even gave Him a second thought (so basically before warp and I began constantly showing Elzevir as The One who Rules All no one gave Him a second thought, luckily people were quick to join in and see His greatness). It was a simple connection that I indeed do have a sense of humor, which you attempted to say I did not, which, if you refer back to your sarcastic humor comment it is readily visible that it was not sarcastic humor telling me to lighten up and not get insulted, and oh, the ha ha with my ribs splitting because it was just so damned funny, especially the throwing biscuits part :rolleyes:.

"Why are you teetering on sounding beligerent? I am not being beligerent, nor do I plan to be." *Sigh* again, you miss it. I said I often sound belligerent, and I certainly never said you were being belligerent so why you are saying that is good as an aside, insulting and belligerent are not the same thing, though they are often connected. As to myself sounding belligerent: People often see blunt, non-sugar coated, very direct debate as being belligerent. I did not actually say I was being belligerent, it is a simple fact I acknowledge that in my natural cynicism and directness when confronting a person in a debate that some people are bound to think I want to throw down and go to war against them.

Also, if you do not think you sound belligerent, read what you said, "First off, my "disclaimer" was aimed at you because you are (excuse me for being blunt) getting your panties all in a bunch over a video game and it's making you look like a ****." Gee, good job not planning to sound belligerent, you went beyond blunt when you happened to add everything after game by turning it into an insult. Oh, wait, I guess that is your sarcastic humor, good show :rolleyes:.


This debate has been civil and I, nor anyone else who has posted in this thread seems to be stressing over it's contents. Warp was sarcastic earlier, does that mean he has resorted to being non-civil as well?
Did I ever say this debate was not civil? No. I said I kept my responses civil. Has this debate been civil? Except for your insults, it has been. When you tell me to lighten up and get a sense of humor, that is not civil, no matter what little comment you try to add on the end to make it look like you are joking. Or how about when you tell me to put two and two together, that was an insult, even if you add a little joke about CPR in the end of that. The joke of CPR was separate from you telling me to, "Put two and two together with Mortanius." Now, that may be sarcastic, but it is also an insult (of course, given the rest of the context of that particular paragraph it actually was not sarcastic at all)


I certainly allow your opinions and the method in which you convey them through type. I hope you aren't asking me to "cater to you" because you don't appreciate sarcasm. Because it won't happen - to you or to anyone else. Oh, I see, now I am the bad guy trying to oppress your right to expressing your opinion. Hmmmm, I find this highly hypocritical. You tell me to lighten up, as if I am cramping your style and am not pleasant to your way, but I am being accused of wanting to change how you express. Funny, that is exactly what you are doing to me, trying to get me to 'lighten up' because you think I am upset. I never told you to change your way, I simply pointed out that you were insulting, it was not jokingly, even if you want to claim sarcasm, though sarcasm is also used for insults. I also clearly stated that I would not change how I post and I would refrain from returning insults in kind, suddenly that means I am insisting that you 'cater' to me?

|

Binky:
And yet, all the wraith blade's acts always struck me as very... well, instinctive; animalistic. Recognition? An animal can recognise another: of the same species, of a species preying upon its species... Healing? The eating of plants that help cure wounds? All the result of imprinting of behaviour early in childhood. That is sentience. Sentience is not simply the act of pre-meditative thought, it is actually independent. A computer is not considered sentient because it does not have a sense of self-survival that adapts on its own. Simple reflexive action to save yourself is a sentient action, same as pre-meditative contemplation of how you will feed yourself over the day. Basically, Self-awareness, perception of environment and response to it can be considered sentience. Computers are not sentient because they will not automatically act upon a virus if the virus scanner is not on (this would be reflexively guarding the self by turning the scanner on). Put your hand in a fire and jerk away without conscious thought, that is a sentient action, do the same with a rock and obviously that does not happen. Plants even show this type of behaviour, if the sun is not hitting them well enough they grow so that more hits them, they have a perception of their environment and act through that perception. A computer cannot do that, it can only 'perceive' (perform may fit better) what it has been programmed to, anything outside the programming is ignored or causes a conflict the computer cannot recognize to work around and thus a crash or similar response occurs. A bird that imprints what its mother is is actually sentient, it perceives and acts upon that perception, it perceives that which it imprinted and knows that food comes from that and responds.

Now, the perception of one's environs and how they affect one implies self-awareness. This leads to questions such as, "Are sea sponges sentient?" which then leads to how much they perceive their environment and react to it, etc.

Can a magical blade show sentience? If the magic were layered enough it could appear to. The fact is the Wraith Blade, in SR2, not only showed it could perceive its environment but it could then act upon its perceptions. If it is simply magic programming it is immensely sophisticated. The Pillars appear almost sentient, but no judgement can be made. They find a suitable candidate for Guardian, bond, reflect the Guardians state of being, and do not do much else, easy enough to program such a response.

keep:
First off, who says Mobeius' staff cant affect the Reaver. I think he just chose not to because of if he did that would mess up his own plans, and I dont think he would do that. The Reaver contains Vampiric powers, so why wouldnt the staff affect it if he chose to???????? I think Mobeius chooses what he wants it to affect. True, if Moebius has that kind of refined control of the staff then yes, he can pick and choose his targets.

warp:
I still dont know how everyones's souls grow back and I know for a fact N.E. won't buy souls growing back/regenerating. Got your facts wrong then. It is the growing into a sentient thing I dispute. Basically, if a piece of soul is taken can it regenerate without the main function regulating system? If it does the whole soul act as the central regulation system? If not then how could a piece, seperated from the main, become a whole new thing? Is it more akin to a simple multi-cellular organism, like (some) sea sponges, that regenerates because it has no great system of complexities requiring a central regulatory system? Does the soul house the mind? If so is that the central regulator, or brain if you will, for the rest? Can souls survive without some function of the mind? Can souls only regenerate as a graft type system if seperated from the mind? etc. Deep, complex questions.

End Note: I apologize for the length of this post.

Edit: Corrected an awkward sentence, one of many I am sure. Now, the BBCA is showing Monty Python episodes, so I am off to make some dinner and watch the tele.

darien_specter
9th Aug 2002, 04:56
Oh man, A&E used to show that, and just when I got cable, they stopped... Those are perplexing questions, and just now i can't think of a good answer...

Binky: I'll try to put up a screenshot for you, if I can work it out to see them clearly. It might be too difficult, though, because they rise very quickly... but I'll give it a shot...

Binky
9th Aug 2002, 11:27
Vae mihi!
So for a really long time I have been using this word without knowing its true meaning. Ah well. Forgive me my error, NE, I've always thought that sentience meant more or less self-awareness plus all that stems from it: abstract conceptualising and all that... A small semantic mix-up; I'd love to do something to the creator of that dictionary!

To atone for my error, the definitions of sentience and sentient from Merriam-Webster's site:

sentience: a sentient quality or state; feeling or sensation as distinguished from perception and thought

sentient: responsive to or conscious of sense impressions; aware; finely sensitive in perception or feeling

(On a side note, while there, I checked that beautiful English word I learned thanks to BO2:

immolate
Latin immolatus, past participle of immolare, from in- + mola spelt grits; from the custom of sprinkling victims with sacrificial meal; akin to Latin molere: to grind -- more at MEAL
Date: 1548
1 : to offer in sacrifice; especially : to kill as a sacrificial victim
2 : to kill or destroy, often by fire

Who says one can't learn things from games? I knew it had to be somehow related to molere, but you have to admit, the connection is weird.)

Self-awareness is the next step up from sentience, or am I getting it wrong again? Because you seem to say that sentience implies self-awareness:

Now, the perception of one's environs and how they affect one implies self-awareness.
Which, given the examples you gave, is obviously untrue: if sentience is recognition and acting on stimuli, bacteria, plants and animals are sentient. But they definitely are not self-aware!
You continue:

The fact is the Wraith Blade, in SR2, not only showed it could perceive its environment but it could then act upon its perceptions. If it is simply magic programming it is immensely sophisticated. The Pillars appear almost sentient, but no judgement can be made. They find a suitable candidate for Guardian, bond, reflect the Guardians state of being, and do not do much else, easy enough to program such a response.


So now, by definition, both the wraith-blade AND the Pillars are sentient. But not self-aware.

(BTW, you may drop the computer analogies. After all, the sentience of living beings is also nothing more than a response programmed into the DNA!
And they are making things for me more difficult: my chosen poison is biology, so I easily understand those parts of your posts that deal with it, while I know next to nothing about programming. Heh.)


---------

warp and darien: Thanks. It's weird, but I seem to have a hole in my memory there. I don't remember any souls.

necropotence
9th Aug 2002, 13:51
Hello ,

What about time travel! It's not a question of part's of a soul their the entire soul all of them. I agree with N.E.

My point about time travel is this. As Kain take's the soul reaver (raz's soul completly absorbed by the blood reaver making it the SR) now this completly absorbed soul goes back in time with Kain and meet's another SR THE SAME SOUL REAVER AKA SOUL JUST A DIFFERENT POINT IN TIME. Same with when kain first hit's raz with the SR their the same soul. Now in SR2 first Kain had to get Raz not to kill him so he could save raz from his destiny Kain had to wait to change history until the same soul was in two places again inside and outside the BR.

warpsavant
9th Aug 2002, 18:08
The wraithblade was pretty self aware in Willy's Chapel.

I guess each peice of soul must have the "imprint" of the soul.