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TimeStreamer
31st Jul 2002, 06:05
Who do you think will end up killing Kain? My guess is his past self, mainly because that scene in BO1 is the only time that Kain appears to die in the entire series (as far as I know).

warpsavant
31st Jul 2002, 07:28
Me.

Azuriel
31st Jul 2002, 09:00
if ANYONE is going to kill Kain, it would be either himself or Raziel

chuffy
31st Jul 2002, 17:59
If it is either Raziel or Kain. Then its Raziel. Remember the games called Legacy of Kain. Even Raziel's story is also called Legacy of Kain. Raziel's story isn't about his rise to power. Its about the Soul reaver. Raziel is going to get trapped because he is ment to, but that doesn't mean that Raziel can't play the part he was ment to. As the savour of nosgoth. But in the end he can't escape his destiny, as the soul trapped in the reaver. I don't think that his soul twinned at the end of SR2.Thus completing his important part of nosgoth history.

So me thinks that kain will go on to star in BO3. Which i think will not take place when kain raised Raziel and he's brothers. But will be the final battle between Kain and the Helden, Or whatever bad guy is in charge of all the naugty things that have happened. And the fightimg leading up to it.

chuffy

Umah Bloodomen
31st Jul 2002, 19:42
Wouldn't things be ironic if it were Vorador or Janos who did the deed of disposing Kain? :p

Epsillion
31st Jul 2002, 19:51
Who's to say that Kain's going to die?

Frankmaster
31st Jul 2002, 21:07
I think Kain is going to be expelled from history.

And I think the Kain you fight in BO1 is the Kain from the timeline created when Kain killed William the Just.

blincoln
31st Jul 2002, 21:12
Michael Moor****'s Elric series has the main character die at the end =).

Non-existent
31st Jul 2002, 22:04
blinc: True, true (of course SR2 already kinda did that bit).

Anyways, the story of the tragic hero is one where the hero loses even when they win, whether they die, or find out they entered into an incestuous relationship and stab out their eyes (Oedipus Rex).

I figure both Kain and Raz are in for tragic fates, and if they get happy endings then it will be the most depressing thing that can happen to the LoK series. The series was founded on tragedy and darkness, to have the heroes survive the end for a happily ever after would be terrible and anti-climatic.

As for who kills Kain... he probably takes his own life (and I do not mean his past self, I mean suicide).

Epsillion
1st Aug 2002, 04:14
well i didnt say happily ever after. maybe fate worse than death sort of thing

warpsavant
1st Aug 2002, 04:44
Maybe Ariel gets all crazy and kills Kain with lightning bolts from her eyes. She looks pretty frail but she was the balance gaurdian.

But only one person is truly EVIL enough to kill Kain....

Umah Bloodomen
1st Aug 2002, 05:30
Turelzevir (TM)???
:p ;)

L_Master562
1st Aug 2002, 06:14
I think that Kain may have a chance for death, but I would go for a fate worse then death kinda thing myself. He screwed with time, so expulsion doesn't seem to out of the picture. With all the altered timelines, if Frankmaster is correct, how many Kains are floating around extra though????

Lets see. Kain altered time and they got rid of that first one. There is the "Kain doesn't die" alteration that would make a second that would still exist. Then there is the last shift which could have created another. Then again, with the infinate amount of timestreams, we could have infinate Kains.

That would mean you could always grab another Kain and have other Kain vs. Kain matches. I want that for Bo3!!!!!! That would be awesome.....err.....again. Well....Seriously. I could easily settle with one though. It could so easily get repettive. I can't wait to see what the lastly altered timeline was though. Oh well, to let CD complete the next Sr and Bo games, I would give them all the time they need. Stupid time restrictions are getting me mad. Why can't publishers figure out that games take time????!!!!

Edit: Either Turelzevir or Elzevir himself, the greatest evil next to Kain. But Kain is evil in the "I'm doing the right thing through the wrong means" kinda way. not the "I'm gunna steal your soul" Elzevir way. Too bad in the first altered timeline Elzevir sorta lost importance to the seen story having his head chopped off.

TempySmurf
1st Aug 2002, 09:29
My guess is that he'll restore everything and the world will be a pretty happy place with lil colourful flowers and butterflies and hopping lil bunnies with lil birds a singing... and he'll be admiring the beauty around him and stub his toe on a rock.. he'll scream out in pain and grab his toe.. falling over and hitting his head on a rock.. knocking him unconcious.. as he falls down a hill through bushes, rocks and trees.. he'll get impaled by a branch.. still falling down the hill the branch will rip his heart out as his limp body falls over a cliff.. and eventually eaten by small ants.. and his heart will be devoured by crows who gain the ability to time travel and go back in time and hang out on scarecrows to annoy kain's past self.

Power reaver
1st Aug 2002, 12:45
I think that if Kain is gonna die , then it will be less suicide and more of sacrifice (suicide is for weaklings which Kain is not) .

Non-existent
2nd Aug 2002, 08:09
Power: Yeah, but sacrifice is just suicide by a more palatable name, if the person martyring themself is willingly giving their life.

Power reaver
2nd Aug 2002, 14:53
Kain will probably die holding off the baddies while Raz goes set everything right , like how Janos did only he wanted to save Raz .

I wonder if Janos knew that Raz was immortal and could not be killed by ordinary methods/men etc , probably not , or he knew that if he did not transport him he d get absorbed into the BR without completing his destiny .

warpsavant
2nd Aug 2002, 19:56
Originally posted by Frankmaster
I think Kain is going to be expelled from history.

And I think the Kain you fight in BO1 is the Kain from the timeline created when Kain killed William the Just.


:eek: :eek: :eek:

Light In Dark
22nd Aug 2002, 01:57
KAIN WILL NOT DIE!!!:mad:
Sorry:o
but if Kain did die it would be sad! But now you think about it how else will balance be restored *crys uncontrolably for five and half minuets* WAIT:D I have a plan sort of...it involves time streaming, Turel and alot of aultered futures. I shant go into details as your mind would probably explode from all my nonsense :eek: how terribal for you.

I hope Kain doesn't die :( in case you haven't noticed I'm a fan of Kain, Kain is the best,

Personnal message to Edios:
KAIN CAN'T DIE!! PLEASE DON'T KILL HIM!!PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! please :(

KainSyndrome101
22nd Aug 2002, 02:15
If Kain dies, I bet it will be a scene in which I will remember for my entire life. It would be very emotional.

Lady Kreliana
22nd Aug 2002, 02:53
Originally posted by KainSyndrome101
If Kain dies, I bet it will be a scene in which I will remember for my entire life. It would be very emotional.


Oh I definitely agree. I think that if Kain dies, he's gonna let himself die for some 'greater good.' Yes, I know that sounds cheesy. (if someone else mentioned this, then sorry. I skimmed.)

Power reaver
22nd Aug 2002, 06:17
I hope they make his death scene in FMV .

A Thought : Kain is probably going to die in SR3 , Moebius said so , but then who wants to beleive that old snake . In SR2 theres a dailog in which Kain says that he might be able resume his roll as balance guardian , thus maybe his death isnt necessary , but still I do think he is gonna die .
:( :mad: :)
But he doesent have to stay dead , he could be resurrected (SR4 or maybe something else , who nows ? ) , that could start a new journey . The story may go like this :

A Greater evil then the Hylden is heading to Nosgoth , Kain is the only one who knows how to stop then , but he is dead , to resurrect him Raz must travel to the most prehistoric times in Nosgoth (or Futuristic , your choice) . Face your nightmares as you try to resurrect Kain .
(Chessy , I know , but I am not in my most creative mood)

Secrets Of Nosgoth
23rd Aug 2002, 22:55
I have a feeling that Kain will die because of some overlooked mundane detail he left out while dealing with his time travels.

For example: Say, something Kain did kept Vorador from getting to him when he needed Vorador to kill off Malek, and Malek was able to save one of the last members of the circle of the nine. Which in turn totally screws over history.

Or how about, Kain sees that if Janos gets his heart back, that Kain wouldn't have the Heart of Darkness, to get him out of trouble, which kills Kain. Not that it'd be the end of Kain, I mean, look at Vorador in BO2.

Vamperic
24th Aug 2002, 16:08
I believe kain will kill himself but only after he heals Nosgoth

and there are more vampires in Nosgoth

Son of Kain
24th Aug 2002, 17:51
I don't see Kian dying.

Lets look at this for a minuite, no matter how many alterante universes have a Kian in them, there really is only one Kain, if he exists in the past, no matter what happens in the past, and his future self goes to the past and pulls the reaver from Raziels chest. He will have to be the same Kain from the past. Confusing I know. but if kain dies in the past his future self will never be.

Back to my point. Kain will not die, he is the Balance gaurdian, Ariel is trapped at the pillers because of the corruption of the pillers by Nuprepator, Kain killed all the other gaudians, restoring the pillers, until he refused to sacrafice himself. If he sacraficed himself the devestation would have been greater, Raziel says so when he meets Ariel in SR2. Janos says that the Pillers belong to the Vampires, Kain knows this also.

Raziel can not escape his destiny of being trapped in the Soul Reaver either. but he can be the Savior of nosgoth, the only way I see this happening is that Kain must stay alive and be the balance gaurdian, along with eight other vampires designated as the other gurdians. which will restore all the pillers, set Ariel free and return the pillers to their rightful guardians. Banishing the Hylden to the Demon Dimension,

As for Raziel I think one of two things will happen either Raziel will let Kain kill him and give his soul to the reaver allowing Kain to fulfill his destiny and right the pillers, hence the "Saviour of Nosgoth" or Raziel will somehow, whether as the Soul Reaver blade or as himself, become the "Tenth Gaurdian" and protect the Reaver.

This is what I think could happen, and in Kains case the only way I can see it playing out.

Let me know what some of you think!

keepittrue
26th Aug 2002, 20:49
Someone said earlier that Kain will probably die and Raziel will probably get all mad and go back in the past and revert the situation and Raziel ends up dieing with Kain fullfilling his role as balance guardian. I think this would be most plausable altho I did like the one Frankmaster put up.

garbagefanuk
30th Aug 2002, 01:31
I find it unlikely Kain will die for a few reasons.

Most importantly Raziel won't do it anymore and no-one else can really do it becos if they could then they wouldn't keep going on at Raziel to kill him, they would do it themselves. I mean who can do it if Raz won't? Kain killed everyone with real power in the land during BO1 and he killed TSL in BO2 and they we're the rulers of Nosgoth. Also i doubt Kains younger self would kill him as even at 600 years old by the end of BO2 he still doesn't have a chance at fighting himself at over 1500 years old. But i could be wrong, we havn't seen all the bad guys that want him dead and we know there are lots and lots of them if u ever played SR2 u will know cos they send all of hell after Raziel :D .

I have a question as well. :confused: I havn't been in the eidos forum for about 8 months and i've missed alot so i'm wondering Who started all this talk on BO3? There isn't going to be one becos it wouldn't fit with the timeline really. After BO2 Kain Raises his empire and his sons so where could BO3 be set? Be abit boring an entire game dedicated to watching Kain walk into the Seraphan tomb and walk back out with 6 new kiddies.

Umah Bloodomen
30th Aug 2002, 01:36
Originally posted by garbagefanuk
I have a question as well. :confused: I havn't been in the eidos forum for about 8 months and i've missed alot so i'm wondering Who started all this talk on BO3? There isn't going to be one becos it wouldn't fit with the timeline really. After BO2 Kain Raises his empire and his sons so where could BO3 be set? Be abit boring an entire game dedicated to watching Kain walk into the Seraphan tomb and walk back out with 6 new kiddies.

SR3 was confirmed (not announced) in around April or May (offhand I can't remember) before this forum was revised. It was hinted at that time (from various sources and heresay) that the entire series would each have 3 games per set.


BO3 could very well occur after the events of SR1 (which is the extreme future) perhaps the same future Raziel briefly entered in SR2. I don't forsee Kain dying off in SR3...there will be more in store for him I am sure.

Lady Kreliana
30th Aug 2002, 01:49
I just don't see why they'd want Kain to die or how they could write it into the story effectively.

garbagefanuk
30th Aug 2002, 03:54
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen


SR3 was confirmed (not announced) in around April or May (offhand I can't remember) before this forum was revised. It was hinted at that time (from various sources and heresay) that the entire series would each have 3 games per set.


BO3 could very well occur after the events of SR1 (which is the extreme future) perhaps the same future Raziel briefly entered in SR2. I don't forsee Kain dying off in SR3...there will be more in store for him I am sure.



I know SR3 was pretty much announced. I've read interviews with the director but how could u have a BO3 set in the future after SR1? U would need the older Kain who is currently running round time with Raziel so how can he come back to the destroyed nosgoth just to have his own game and then to bugger back off to finish what he started with Raziel in SR2?

Secrets Of Nosgoth
2nd Sep 2002, 19:30
Kain is just too friggin powerful as his present self (SR1 time). He was also way too powerful after BO1, which is why they came up with that story to weaken him so you could actually have a challenge in it. If he started with the Soul Reaver, all the magic spells, and creepy explosive weapons he had at the end of BO1...what fun would that be. Likewise for a BO3 after SR timeline I imagine. Unless of course, they revert kain's skills yet again.

Oh well, I guess I'm currently just more interested in the Wheel of Destiny and what it has to do with the Hylden. Not too mention the fate of the humans. Just like the creature golum in LotR, I think humans may have a bigger part in this than I first imagined.

Only time can tell, and unfortunately I'm no time streamer.

garbagefanuk
2nd Sep 2002, 20:18
Originally posted by Secrets Of Nosgoth
Kain is just too friggin powerful as his present self (SR1 time). He was also way too powerful after BO1, which is why they came up with that story to weaken him so you could actually have a challenge in it. If he started with the Soul Reaver, all the magic spells, and creepy explosive weapons he had at the end of BO1...what fun would that be. Likewise for a BO3 after SR timeline I imagine. Unless of course, they revert kain's skills yet again.

Oh well, I guess I'm currently just more interested in the Wheel of Destiny and what it has to do with the Hylden. Not too mention the fate of the humans. Just like the creature golum in LotR, I think humans may have a bigger part in this than I first imagined.

Only time can tell, and unfortunately I'm no time streamer.


By SR1 time he didn't need all those. he had an empire and 6 luitenants with there 6 clans to run the land, why he need to fight anymore? He was a god to them. Personally i think humans are just cattle to be harvested. I have no real love or like for the humans in nosgoth. *i have no real love for humans in real life either thats why i like Kain so much ;) * humans have no real power as they were wiped out byu the vampires so what part can they play. the opnly time they can affect things is in the past and since the past is hard to change wityhout messing with time i doubt there gonna do anything anymore other than die :D

Umah Bloodomen
2nd Sep 2002, 20:36
Originally posted by garbagefanuk



By SR1 time he didn't need all those. he had an empire and 6 luitenants with there 6 clans to run the land, why he need to fight anymore? He was a god to them. Personally i think humans are just cattle to be harvested. I have no real love or like for the humans in nosgoth. *i have no real love for humans in real life either thats why i like Kain so much ;) * humans have no real power as they were wiped out byu the vampires so what part can they play. the opnly time they can affect things is in the past and since the past is hard to change wityhout messing with time i doubt there gonna do anything anymore other than die :D

Humanity wasn't wiped out totally...do we forget about the little vampire hunters getting in our ways in the SR series, and the humans that populated Meridian in BO2?

We also forget that Kain did revere humanity prior to his assassination. With all of his latest revelations and his time travels through The Chronoplast, it is appearing like he will eventually succumb to his destiny as the Balance Guardian. Kain (although powerful) is getting bored. There's only three things more to accomplish, identify the puppetmasters, succumb to his destiny, and end his legacy.

garbagefanuk
2nd Sep 2002, 22:36
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen


Humanity wasn't wiped out totally...do we forget about the little vampire hunters getting in our ways in the SR series, and the humans that populated Meridian in BO2?

We also forget that Kain did revere humanity prior to his assassination. With all of his latest revelations and his time travels through The Chronoplast, it is appearing like he will eventually succumb to his destiny as the Balance Guardian. Kain (although powerful) is getting bored. There's only three things more to accomplish, identify the puppetmasters, succumb to his destiny, and end his legacy.

Ur taking me too literally. I know humans weren't totally extinct, they had a city but they were not really a threat anymore unless of course ur an idiot like dumah :) Ur right he did revere humanity before he realised how blood thirsty and brutal it really is and how manipulative it can be. the vampire purges, mobius, ariel. He just got sick of it and realised he was better than humans now.

Umah Bloodomen
2nd Sep 2002, 23:37
But you are forgetting that Kain didn't reach that conclusion on his own. It was the vampire, Vorador that instilled that view within his head.

garbagefanuk
3rd Sep 2002, 18:42
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
But you are forgetting that Kain didn't reach that conclusion on his own. It was the vampire, Vorador that instilled that view within his head.

Accually Kain doesn't agree with Varodor originally. Its just when he see's what humans have become that he decides he was right. Vorador only sat still and acted rather arrogant about his race :)

Umah Bloodomen
4th Sep 2002, 03:29
Kain remains a bit indifferent at first (but throws in his own insight during the conversation).

Kain didn't realize the truth to what Vorador spoke of until the end, in which case he replied:

"Vorador was correct, we are gods - dark gods. And it is our duty to thin the herd."

Secrets Of Nosgoth
18th Sep 2002, 03:58
The irony it would be if something Kain and Raziel do in the past affected the numbers of humans in the future, when they come back, humans take advantage.

They may be the herd, but it is humans that the pillars turned to instead of vampires.

Which brings up a different question; since in the SR present time, both human and vampire are near extinct, who would the pillars turn to if Kain were to die?

lokkagrey
19th Sep 2002, 00:08
Secrets of Nosgoth the paradoxes you propose are impossible. Only when the Soul Reaver comes in contact with itself, can you make such monumental changes in time.

I believe that neither Kain nor Raz dies. First off nothing can kill Raz. Kain is much too cautious to fall into anyone elses trap. What Kain wanted from the beginning was a way to end his vamperic life, but due to some dark nobility about him, he will not do so at the cost of Nosgoth. I think Kain is setting things up for Raz to complete his destiny.

But what is Raz's destiny? How about this? Raz has been gathering strength and learning about his role in Nosgoth, after he absorbs Ariel into the Reaver (as seen at the end of SR1) he goes to Kain and the Reaver enters Kain transporting Ariel's spirit to him. That way, due to Ariel's pure spirit, Kain is restored to real life and uncorrupted. He then sets balance to the pillars which opens a gate to the Hylden domain, as the pillars are the lock. Then Raz, who has the Key (The Reaver) locks the gate forever sealing in the Hylden permanently. The only problem is it has to be sealed from the other side dooming poor Raz to an eternity with the Hylden.

I think that would be a rather classic ending. Don't you.


Lokka Grey

History Abhors A Paradox

Secrets Of Nosgoth
19th Sep 2002, 02:21
Originally posted by lokkagrey
Secrets of Nosgoth the paradoxes you propose are impossible. Only when the Soul Reaver comes in contact with itself, can you make such monumental changes in time.

I believe that neither Kain nor Raz dies. First off nothing can kill Raz. Kain is much too cautious to fall into anyone elses trap. What Kain wanted from the beginning was a way to end his vamperic life, but due to some dark nobility about him, he will not do so at the cost of Nosgoth. I think Kain is setting things up for Raz to complete his destiny.

But what is Raz's destiny? How about this? Raz has been gathering strength and learning about his role in Nosgoth, after he absorbs Ariel into the Reaver (as seen at the end of SR1) he goes to Kain and the Reaver enters Kain transporting Ariel's spirit to him. That way, due to Ariel's pure spirit, Kain is restored to real life and uncorrupted. He then sets balance to the pillars which opens a gate to the Hylden domain, as the pillars are the lock. Then Raz, who has the Key (The Reaver) locks the gate forever sealing in the Hylden permanently. The only problem is it has to be sealed from the other side dooming poor Raz to an eternity with the Hylden.

I think that would be a rather classic ending. Don't you.


Lokka Grey

History Abhors A Paradox

I dunno, I can think of at least one more possible paradox. Janos not staying dead. That could throw lots of people's plans off track. Bringing him back to life or actually keeping him out of The Mass

Not that I expect something to happen to make the humans stronger. Just speculating. I'm now thinking that if humans once took advantage over Dumah, why not take advantage when the Vampire and Hylden are fighting (assuming they have another meeting. I'm sure that war would bring both species down to their knees.

Even then, not all loose ends are cut off. You still have the Wheel of Destiny, and the supposed puppet masters behind the demons.

One question, why is Ariel the only member of the BO's Circle of the Pillars being punished by spending an eternity trapped in the pillars? Is it just because Kain and her shared the same job. If so, why would Ariel be punished for Kain's actions?

That said, I do like your speculation on the end of LoK, Lokka. It would be fitting. But I would be disappointed if anything we come up with, is actually what happens. The last thing I want to think to myself when the ending comes up is "I knew that was going to happen."

Ah, another friggin question comes up on a somewhat unrelated topic:
Now that Kain once again has the Soul Reaver at the end of SR2, is it possible that his past self may never get it? He'll have to give it up to Vorador, who must give it up to William the Just, who must give it up to Kain, who must lose it to TSL, who must lose it to Kain, who must lose it to Raz.....heh. If Raz stays away from the timeline Kain is in with the Reaver, he doesn't have to worry about his destiny being tapped in the Reaver.

Power reaver
19th Sep 2002, 09:10
Kain isnt dum , he wont take the Reaver , he just ripped it out of Razes chest , and then he will leave it be . But if he does take the reaver (which has the power to change time) , then God knows what will happen to Nosgoth , or Kain for that matter . He might even get expelled from History . He has mentioned that for a long time . So thats why I highly doubt he will take the Reaver . But he could take it , use it , and keep it back , in the same time , but I still dont think that will happen .

Reply to Secrets Of Nosgoth . ;)

FierceClaw
20th Sep 2002, 09:06
Originally posted by Power reaver
Kain isnt dum , he wont take the Reaver , he just ripped it out of Razes chest , and then he will leave it be . But if he does take the reaver (which has the power to change time) , then God knows what will happen to Nosgoth , or Kain for that matter . He might even get expelled from History . He has mentioned that for a long time . So thats why I highly doubt he will take the Reaver . But he could take it , use it , and keep it back , in the same time , but I still dont think that will happen .

Actually, the Reaver can only alter the time stream when it is in the presence of another instance of itself (thereby creating a paradox), such as the Reaver that is bound to Raziel. What remains to be seen, however, is whether this phenomenon is unique to the Reaver, or if it will work with multiple instances of any object (or person, for that matter).

lokkagrey
20th Sep 2002, 12:51
FierceClaw brings up a good point.

Just examine the changes in time.
Even when Kain and Raz a running around in time no serious changes occur. (Kain says that even they are like peebles in a stream.) The monumental changes only occur when the Soul Reaver comes in close proximity to itself.

Kain's battle with William the Just
The wraithblade repairs the physical in William's Chapel
Raz's refusal to kill Kain
Kain removes the Soul Reaver from Raz when his soul exist both inside and outside the blade.


The Reaver itself is not powerful enough to change time, it first has to be bonded with Raz's soul (which is his enivitable destiny.)
That's why he feels no temporal displacement when Janos offers him the blade at first. So only when two copies of the wraith blade come together can you make any great change in history (wether in Reaver or in Raz)

Makes me wonder, what would happen if Raz met another of himself? I mean 4 copies of the same soul in one place. (Raz, another Raz each with a wraith blade which is Raz's soul)


Lokka Grey

History Abhors A Paradox

Power reaver
21st Sep 2002, 07:32
Makes me wonder, what would happen if Raz met another of himself? I mean 4 copies of the same soul in one place. (Raz, another Raz each with a wraith blade which is Raz's soul)



Most probably Raz will be expelled from the timeline , since who knows what will happen if 4 of the souls meet . Thats gonna be a monumental change in the timeline , which is not allowed , thats why Iam stressing on the expellation thing .

FierceClaw
21st Sep 2002, 11:36
Originally posted by lokkagrey
Makes me wonder, what would happen if Raz met another of himself? I mean 4 copies of the same soul in one place. (Raz, another Raz each with a wraith blade which is Raz's soul)


It would probably work the same way as having 2 instances of the reaver together. While the wraith blade is bound to Raziel, it probably works as if his soul and the soul of the blade are one soul; if it worked any other way, being bound to the wraith blade would create a paradox that would last until he and it were somehow separated and distanced from each other. Therefore, 2 copies of Raziel would count as 2 souls, since each wraith blade wouldn't be counted separately from its host.

All of this leads me to wonder if there was one of those space-time distortions every time Raziel got near Kain during the time in which Raz was still a vampire...Maybe he never got close enough to the sword before, since he seemed to be experiencing it for the first time in William's tomb.