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TempySmurf
29th Jul 2002, 02:52
Dunno if these have been asked or if they're even answered and I just don't know, so I'm going to ask some random questions.

Soul Reaver:

How exactly does the soul reaver work? It seems to do many things and have many purposes. It seems to be a key to the pillars (or something of that nature) but I don't think that's been explained? Any theories? Does it swallow the souls or is it raziel that's doing it. Why does it swallow souls? How does it use the souls? Are the souls destroyed and converted into energy for the reaver or.. for raziel. Or are the souls trapped inside of the reaver?

When raziel killed himself the reaver took his human soul. Then did it try to take his "undead" soul and that created the paradox? Or was it that the his soul was on the inside and outside at the same time? Or was it cause kain took the soul reaver out of Raziel? Or was it that his human soul was already part of the future soul reaver (because kain's version would already have Raziel's human soul in it if he got the sword after Raziel had it in the past.. assuming my timeline theory below) and since his soul was already part of him when he was hit with it the souls melded back together (or his soul went back to his body knowing that it belonged there.. but now it was in the form of the soul reaver's "soul") thus why he has the soul reaver attached to him in the first place.. because the soul reaver has his soul already. Which would make you wonder what happened to his soul when he was resurrected? It would still be in the soul reaver, right? So his vampire self was soulless? How would that work exactly? But then he gets his soul back when he gets the soul reaver, so it already has his human soul and then when he takes his human soul again.. it should already be there.. which would kinda make the soul reaver confused.. thus creating the paradox.. ack.. that makes since.. scary.. so if that were the case then the soul reaver would keep the souls.. so every soul that has ever been drained would be part of the soul reaver. But would this be only when raziel has it? I would imagine so.. I don't remember kain using it for such purposes (replaying BO1 now though.. it's been since 1996 since I last played it so I could be terribly wrong). But then you'd imagine that this was all suppose to happen anyways or else there would always be a paradox and the shift was suppose to occur? So would the shift in time be created because time wanted to fix itself by destroying the paradox (raziel) by devouring himself into himself so that he basically wouldn't exist or something strange of that nature.. and then there would only be the soul reaver so that kain can get it back so that it doesn't effect the timeline? But when kain pulled out the reaver.. it stopped time from fixing itself, so even though Raziel is a paradox.. time was trying to fix it.. but since raziel didn't kill kain.. kain could change time and so kain decides to stop the soul reaver from killing raziel.. and that's why you have the "alternate" paradox.. or the continuation of the paradox.. being raziel? Uh.. anyways.. don't mind the ramblings.. unless they make since..

The timeline for the soul reaver? This seems confusing as well, but I think I have it? Janos has it.. human raziel takes it.. raziel kills himself (which would mean raziel has to get rid of it before william gets it) .. william gets it.. raziel fixes the broken soul reaver.. later Someone takes it and stashes it for kain to find.. kain has it.. kain goes back in time and both william and kain have the soul reaver.. William's soul reaver is broken which later raziel fixes as stated above.. then kain has it.. (i don't actually remember this but i've read it somewhere in here that the reaver gets broken again when he hits raziel) so kain hits raziel with it breaking it again.. the soul reaver's soul is attached to raziel.. Does that seem right? I suppose I could just go take a look at the offical timeline and see if it matches up, but i'm not gonna.. I've read some people talking about plot holes for william and kain both having the sword.. am I missing something.. is the timeline all wrong?

The pillars:

Are the pillars a balance of the world or just a key to keep the hylden out or both? It seems that the world began to decay when the pillars "fell", but then there is also hints or perhaps people's theories that the pillars keep out the hylden? The pillars seem to be in pretty bad shape in the future? Is this why the hylden are able to enter because the pillars are weakened? I assume both.

What I should probably get but don't is why kain would need to die in order to restore the pillars? Why wouldn't the pillars find new people to take over the other parts of the pillar? Why can't kain be balance for the pillars? Has he corrupted the pillars so that they're kind of "poisoned" and kain needs to die in order to bring the pillars back to "good health" so that it can find new people for the circle? Why not corrupt people for the circle? The ones of the past seemed to be corrupted. Why do you need to die and be reborn as janos said that is why the pillars went to humans? Is it because of the vampiric curse? Or the madness the circle was striken with? Or is it something else altogether? I'm betting it has nothing to do with kain, which has been hinted at in SR2. I'm guessing that the madness the circle was inflicted with didn't help, but what other possibilites could it be? I've been reading this site too much.. I'm starting to confuse the games with people's theories.

Demon Deminsion and the Hylden Banishment:

How are the hylden banished? Is it the pillars? Is the "fall" of the pillars enabling them to come back but only a few? Or was it just a spell of some sort? Is it the soul reaver? Or something else? Is Azimuth or could she have brought one or a few through? Or someone with her ability? The demons seem to be able to come through without a problem? Who's summoning the demons? Azimuth or the hylden, Squidy, hash or someone else? Why are they immortal there? Is there no sense of time? Ha.. okay i'm stopping.. I've lost track of what my questions originally were..

warpsavant
29th Jul 2002, 03:27
The demons are explained in the SR2 manual on page 35.

When Raziel killed his human self and his Sarafan brethren, he was using the Blood Reaver, and their souls floated away. Raziel did not eat them, and neither did the Wraith Blade, since it was disabled by Moebius staff the whole time.

Umah Bloodomen
29th Jul 2002, 04:05
Originally posted by TempySmurf
Dunno if these have been asked or if they're even answered and I just don't know, so I'm going to ask some random questions.

Soul Reaver:

How exactly does the soul reaver work? It seems to do many things and have many purposes. It seems to be a key to the pillars (or something of that nature) but I don't think that's been explained? Any theories? Does it swallow the souls or is it raziel that's doing it. Why does it swallow souls? How does it use the souls? Are the souls destroyed and converted into energy for the reaver or.. for raziel. Or are the souls trapped inside of the reaver?




The soul reaver is an ancient blade forged after the genesis of the Pillars of Nosgoth. It's was forged with vampyric energy but as we later found out, could be imbued with elemental energy as well. (SR2 elemental fonts). The original properties of the blade were wraith properties. (The wraith blade which devourers souls). The blade devourers souls in order to sustain itself as a physical entity. Because the energy in the blade has been discovered to be Raziel. It is Raziel who is devouring souls in order to sustain himself in a semi-physical form (the blue guy..LoL). Remember, Raziel originally thought of the blade to be his "symbiotic weapon". We found out it was merely an extension of himself. In SR2, the Soul Reaver took on a new property and developed a lust for human blood. (Thus becoming the Blood Reaver). It was quite a surprise to Raziel, but he did enjoy turning it loose in SR2. The souls are consumed by the blade/Raziel. There hasn't been any indication yet as to whether or not they are trapped there (and able to get free) or simply consumed (and no more).

Compliments of Ardeth's site:


Raziel V.O.: (a horrible epiphany)

With all other foes exhausted, the conjoined blades turned themselves on me. And I realized, finally, why I had sensed nothing when Janos offered me the blade.
The Reaver was never forged to be a soul-stealing weapon...
The Reaver plunges toward Raziel and impales him. His eyes widen in agony, despair and recognition -

Raziel V.O.:

... the ravenous, soul-devouring entity trapped in the blade was - and always had been - me.
This is why the blade was destroyed when Kain tried to strike me down - the Reaver could not devour its own soul. The paradox shattered the blade.
So - this was my terrible destiny - to play out this purgatorial cycle for all eternity...
I could not bear it - despair overwhelmed me.



Originally posted by TempySmurf
When raziel killed himself the reaver took his human soul. Then did it try to take his "undead" soul and that created the paradox? Or was it that the his soul was on the inside and outside at the same time?

The paradox began when 2 instances of Raziel's soul existed at the same time and interacted with each other. When SR Raziel murdered human Raziel, yes, his soul being both on the inside and the outside of the blade fueled the paradox. But the actual Paradoxial occurance was the fact Raziel could not destroy himself.


Originally posted by TempySmurf
Or was it cause kain took the soul reaver out of Raziel?

Also compliments of Ardeth's site:

Out of strength, Raziel surrenders his will. As he nears the brink of oblivion, a fluttering distortion tangibly begins, and Raziel approaches a dawning revelation -

Raziel V.O.:

And then... a growing sense of vertigo, and the familiar displacement...
... the paradoxical moment when my twinned soul hovered both outside and inside the Reaver blade...
This was the instant - the glimmer of temporal distortion - Kain had been counting on all along.
This was the edge of the coin - the minute flicker of probability upon which Kain had gambled everything.
Kain lunges forward - and with a massive, history-defying effort, tears the Reaver from Raziel's chest.

Raziel:

(Screams in agony)
The Reaver flies across the room, and the wraith-blade flickers and fades as it is seperated from its twin. Raziel falls forward, rescued from the threshold of oblivion, but nearly competely drained.

Kain:

Now you are free to reclaim your true destiny, Raziel.
Gradually, the room begins to warp around them as history strains to find a new course around this new obstruction. As the future reshuffles itself, a look of horror slowly dawns on Kain's face. With new memories blooming in his mind, Kain realizes he may have just made a terrible mistake.





Originally posted by TempySmurf
Or was it that his human soul was already part of the future soul reaver (because kain's version would already have Raziel's human soul in it if he got the sword after Raziel had it in the past.. assuming my timeline theory below) and since his soul was already part of him when he was hit with it the souls melded back together (or his soul went back to his body knowing that it belonged there.. but now it was in the form of the soul reaver's "soul") thus why he has the soul reaver attached to him in the first place.. because the soul reaver has his soul already. Which would make you wonder what happened to his soul when he was resurrected? It would still be in the soul reaver, right? So his vampire self was soulless? How would that work exactly?

Man this was confusing... LOL. Based on how I read this, I will "attempt" to explain a bit. ;). Raziel should technically have the same soul. Not two different souls. A part of his soul resides in his human form, the other resides in the blue guy. I would assume that this means he is not a whole soul at any point of the series. The reaver attached to him to complete itself. I believe that half of his soul remained attached to his corpse when he was ressurected into a vampire. In addition to that half of his soul, he received a part of Kain's. (Hence how he returned). The other half was still apart of the blade I am guessing. Hence why William had so much power in BO1 and how Kain acquired the wraith blade in BO1. ( I hope this made any damn sense...LOL)


Originally posted by TempySmurf
But then he gets his soul back when he gets the soul reaver, so it already has his human soul and then when he takes his human soul again.. it should already be there.. which would kinda make the soul reaver confused.. thus creating the paradox.. ack.. that makes since.. scary.. so if that were the case then the soul reaver would keep the souls.. so every soul that has ever been drained would be part of the soul reaver. But would this be only when raziel has it? I would imagine so.. I don't remember kain using it for such purposes (replaying BO1 now though.. it's been since 1996 since I last played it so I could be terribly wrong).

Let me get this straight..(I am so confused ;) ). Are you suggesting that Raziel's soul was split into thirds as opposed to halfs at the time he disposed of his Sarafan self? But the quotes I have provided say clearly that Raziel cannot destroy himself. Which I believe includes, he cannot consume his own soul.


Originally posted by TempySmurf
But then you'd imagine that this was all suppose to happen anyways or else there would always be a paradox and the shift was suppose to occur? So would the shift in time be created because time wanted to fix itself by destroying the paradox (raziel) by devouring himself into himself so that he basically wouldn't exist or something strange of that nature.. and then there would only be the soul reaver so that kain can get it back so that it doesn't effect the timeline? But when kain pulled out the reaver.. it stopped time from fixing itself, so even though Raziel is a paradox.. time was trying to fix it.. but since raziel didn't kill kain.. kain could change time and so kain decides to stop the soul reaver from killing raziel.. and that's why you have the "alternate" paradox.. or the continuation of the paradox.. being raziel? Uh.. anyways.. don't mind the ramblings.. unless they make since..

I believe that there are 2 different paradoxes afoot. You have to remember, in the time that Kain travels back in time, and Raziel and Ariel are having a discussion at the Pillars in SR2, there would be 2 instances of Kain also running around. (Nobleman Kain just being born). I believe this may also have an affect on something somewhere...LOL.


Originally posted by TempySmurf
The timeline for the soul reaver? This seems confusing as well, but I think I have it? Janos has it.. human raziel takes it.. raziel kills himself (which would mean raziel has to get rid of it before william gets it) .. william gets it.. raziel fixes the broken soul reaver.. later Someone takes it and stashes it for kain to find.. kain has it.. kain goes back in time and both william and kain have the soul reaver.. William's soul reaver is broken which later raziel fixes as stated above.. then kain has it.. (i don't actually remember this but i've read it somewhere in here that the reaver gets broken again when he hits raziel) so kain hits raziel with it breaking it again.. the soul reaver's soul is attached to raziel.. Does that seem right? I suppose I could just go take a look at the offical timeline and see if it matches up, but i'm not gonna.. I've read some people talking about plot holes for william and kain both having the sword.. am I missing something.. is the timeline all wrong?

:eek: ;) The soul Reaver breaks because it can't destroy itself. Same thing happens when Kain breaks it upon his back. I am not sure if Raziel personally fixes it. I mean it's plausable that he could once he is back to normal when he consumes souls. **shrugs**


Originally posted by TempySmurf
The pillars:

Are the pillars a balance of the world or just a key to keep the hylden out or both? It seems that the world began to decay when the pillars "fell", but then there is also hints or perhaps people's theories that the pillars keep out the hylden? The pillars seem to be in pretty bad shape in the future? Is this why the hylden are able to enter because the pillars are weakened? I assume both.

They are both. The Hylden came and were a threat to the world. The Pillars were created to keep the Hylden out and preserve the world. Life as we know it was protected by these Pillars. The Pillars are the lock and the Reaver is the key. (Remember that ;) ). When Ariel was murdered, the Pillars began to become weak. When Nupraptor went mad and corrupted the Circle, the Pillars became even weaker. When Kain restored the Pillars, it appeared they would regain their strength but he refused the sacrifice and Balance to the Pillars was never restored. Without proper Balance, the Pillars can't regain their strength and they are at a stalemate (meaning they can't choose their new guardians). The Lock is down, the Hylden can enter freely. Now to use the key to seal it back up. (Presumably Kain must die at the hands/blade of the Soul Reaver).


Originally posted by TempySmurf
What I should probably get but don't is why kain would need to die in order to restore the pillars? Why wouldn't the pillars find new people to take over the other parts of the pillar? Why can't kain be balance for the pillars? Has he corrupted the pillars so that they're kind of "poisoned" and kain needs to die in order to bring the pillars back to "good health" so that it can find new people for the circle? Why not corrupt people for the circle? The ones of the past seemed to be corrupted.

The poison was Nupraptor's doing. Kain is believed to be under the influence of corruption as well. Kain supposedly needs to die because he is the Balance Guardian. He is the only living/undead being that can restore it. How I think this will happen was stated above. The Key needs to seal the Lock.


Originally posted by TempySmurf
Why do you need to die and be reborn as janos said that is why the pillars went to humans? Is it because of the vampiric curse? Or the madness the circle was striken with? Or is it something else altogether? I'm betting it has nothing to do with kain, which has been hinted at in SR2. I'm guessing that the madness the circle was inflicted with didn't help, but what other possibilites could it be? I've been reading this site too much.. I'm starting to confuse the games with people's theories.

I am not clear on where you were going with this. Please explain.



Originally posted by TempySmurf
Demon Deminsion and the Hylden Banishment:

How are the hylden banished? Is it the pillars? Is the "fall" of the pillars enabling them to come back but only a few? Or was it just a spell of some sort? Is it the soul reaver? Or something else? Is Azimuth or could she have brought one or a few through? Or someone with her ability? The demons seem to be able to come through without a problem? Who's summoning the demons? Azimuth or the hylden, Squidy, hash or someone else? Why are they immortal there? Is there no sense of time? Ha.. okay i'm stopping.. I've lost track of what my questions originally were..

The Hylden were banished by the Ancients. They were sealed by the Pillars (the lock) into the demon dimesnion. The fall of the Pillars (the broken lock) enabled the race to return. The soldiers came first (and their technological people) to begin influencing Nosgoth in their culture. I would assume that had the Sarafan Lord been successful in BO2, the rest of the Hylden race would've also returned. There was a spell upon the Pillars by the Ancients, enabling the Pillars to choose their human guardians. I am sure there's magic invovled with the Soul Reaver being the key as well. Azimuth brought demons to Nosgoth. Not Hylden. She worships the dark god Hash'ak'gik who also had a presence in Nosgoth when he Posessed Mortanius. I would assume he brought some in himself. (demons I mean). There is always a sense of time when Moebius is involved...although its very twisted now. LoL. We aren't sure what Squiddy's intentions are, but theories are speculating that he is actually Hash'ak'gik's physical form.

Blah....my brain is fried. This was a challenge. Thanks a lot! I feel refreshed now. :) :p

EDIT I had to fix my bolding text.

Power reaver
29th Jul 2002, 15:23
The Blood Reaver was made by the ancients to battle the Hylden and lock them away in the 3rd dimension , thus the reaver is the key . The blade we see in SR2 was the BO , it did not have Raziels soul absorbed in it . After Raziel soul/part of his soul is absorbed into it , it became the Soul Reaver . It probably eats souls and in a way digests it to give out energy which it uses to sustain itself and make itself stronger . The Soul Reaver is a living breathing parasite stuck to Razes arm .

TempySmurf
29th Jul 2002, 16:29
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

The paradox began when 2 instances of Raziel's soul existed at the same time and interacted with each other. When SR Raziel murdered human Raziel, yes, his soul being both on the inside and the outside of the blade fueled the paradox. But the actual Paradoxial occurance was the fact Raziel could not destroy himself.

Does this mean that Raziel could find the physical form of the soul reaver any time he wants and stab himself with it to create a paradox? That sure would make time peaved.


Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

I am not clear on where you were going with this. Please explain.

Me either. ;) I think I was just wondering why the vampires couldn't hold a seat on the circle of the pillars just because they don't die. I believe that's what Janos said in his lil keep to raziel? Something about it passing onto humans because vampires don't die.



Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

The Hylden were banished by the Ancients. They were sealed by the Pillars (the lock) into the demon dimesnion. The fall of the Pillars (the broken lock) enabled the race to return. The soldiers came first (and their technological people) to begin influencing Nosgoth in their culture. I would assume that had the Sarafan Lord been successful in BO2, the rest of the Hylden race would've also returned. There was a spell upon the Pillars by the Ancients, enabling the Pillars to choose their human guardians. I am sure there's magic invovled with the Soul Reaver being the key as well. Azimuth brought demons to Nosgoth. Not Hylden. She worships the dark god Hash'ak'gik who also had a presence in Nosgoth when he Posessed Mortanius. I would assume he brought some in himself. (demons I mean). There is always a sense of time when Moebius is involved...although its very twisted now. LoL. We aren't sure what Squiddy's intentions are, but theories are speculating that he is actually Hash'ak'gik's physical form.

I always assumed that the pillars were just weakened but still worked somewhat, which is why the hylden couldn't come back in full force? Or perhaps it was just too hard to transdeminsional travel using "magic" or whatever means they used to come back? Which would explain why they needed the machine in order to bring them all back?

If the soul reaver is the key what happens when it's broken? Does this mean that you can't open the lock? Why would you want to open the lock? Wouldn't it be better to destroy the key? Or does it work the other way around? You need the key to sustain the lock? And if so, then what happens when the soul reaver was broken when william had it? Suppose we don't know how that works yet? Or if I'm reading you right, you think that the pillars have become unlocked due to mismanagement and the soul reaver is needed once the pillars are "fixed" to lock it back up again.. or something to that effect?

The only reason I mention Azimuth is because of all the demons that happened to appear in SR2 which made me wonder. How did the demons get through? Can they transdeminsional travel themselves? Was it Hashy? The hylden? Well if the hylden and hashy kinda had some "friendship" going on then Azimuth might find it in her interest to help them?



Originally posted by Power reaver
The Blood Reaver was made by the ancients to battle the Hylden and lock them away in the 3rd dimension , thus the reaver is the key . The blade we see in SR2 was the BO , it did not have Raziels soul absorbed in it . After Raziel soul/part of his soul is absorbed into it , it became the Soul Reaver . It probably eats souls and in a way digests it to give out energy which it uses to sustain itself and make itself stronger . The Soul Reaver is a living breathing parasite stuck to Razes arm .

So you're saying that the blood reaver was used to suck the blood from the ancients enemies (the hylden) so the hylden turn around and put a curse on them similiar to their heroic weapon. So when Janos has it it's not the Soul Reaver it's the Blood Reaver. Which is why he didn't feel his own soul, just the "soul" of the blood reaver part of the soul reaver. So when Mobius's staff effects wear off.. his soul reaver and the blood reaver intertwine together? So how does the blood reaver turn into the soul reaver? When the "swords" try to kill raziel but can't because the soul reaver is apart of him? How does this cause the blood reaver to change? It has to change before william or kain get it? So that means that the blood reaver is the key to the pillars. So the blood reaver would probably just transfer its attributes to the soul reaver, since they are somewhat the same thing. But that still doesn't explain how the blood reaver would become the soul reaver? Does the physical blood reaver by having contact with the soul reaver, being basically the same thing but with raziel's soul attached to it.. try to get it's soul back.. being the soul reaver part of raziel.. so that gives the blood reaver the powers of raziel thus intertwining the blood reavers "soul" with raziels soul. Would this mean a seperation of Raziel's soul and now part of it is in the soul reaver and part of it is him and his soul reaver attached to his arm? So his soul wouldn't be on the inside and outside at the same time because the blood reaver doesn't have his soul yet. Unless having the blood reaver intertwine with the soul reaver attached to raziel gives the blood reaver the ability to suck his human soul into the blood reaver. I suppose the point I'm missing is when exactly did the soul reaver on his arm have the ability to come back? After the fight or before the fight with himself? It would only make sense this way if it happened during the fight with himself so that it could take his human soul so that it could be on the inside and outside at the same time because at that point it's not the soul reaver, unless the sword couldn't swallow its own soul and not raziels. Even though they seem to be one. So the sword would be the paradox and not raziel, even though they are the same thing, it appears. So does this make him stronger now or weaker? You'd think that since he picked up the soul reaver before hand when it was broken and it repaired itself and raziel's reaver part of him got stronger, that now he would return to having the sword be weaker and he would return to how he was when he was in SR1 and part of SR2. Which would make you think that the blood reaver took part of the soul reaver and not part of raziel. Or it could have taken both, but then raziel would be even weaker still. Which would also mean that Williams soul reaver should have been stronger than Kains? Now do you think there's a way for him to seperate his soul from the soul of the reaver and return it to the blood reaver and have just his own soul, but then would he be dead? Could that be the way to stop the paradox and fix everything? Or how about.. if the soul reaver is part of him shouldn't he.. or couldn't he.. retrieve the memories of the soul reaver and know everything its been through? Or how about the souls it absorbs? That would make life interesting.

edit: fixed quote color

Ardeth Silvereni
29th Jul 2002, 17:26
I largely agree with what Umah has posted, but I interpreted some things a little differently when playing the game. Thanks for the food for thought though, Umah and TempySmurf. :)
My apologies if I misread anything in your posts.


Originally posted by TempySmurf
When raziel killed himself the reaver took his human soul. Then did it try to take his "undead" soul and that created the paradox? Or was it that the his soul was on the inside and outside at the same time?

Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
The paradox began when 2 instances of Raziel's soul existed at the same time and interacted with each other. When SR Raziel murdered human Raziel, yes, his soul being both on the inside and the outside of the blade fueled the paradox. But the actual Paradoxial occurance was the fact Raziel could not destroy himself.

The wraith blade did not manifest until after Raziel had killed his human self, so a version of Raziel's soul was not in the sword at that point. I believe Sarafan Raziel was impaled on the Blood Reaver, so the sword wouldn't have tried to devour his soul - only his lifeblood.
I think Sarafan Raziel's soul had nothing to do with the creation of the paradox. It fled and never came into contact with the wraith blade (as it was disabled) or Soul Reaver Raziel's soul. If Sarafan Raz's soul had been involved, I would have expected a temporal distortion to have occured between them the moment Soul Reaver Raz entered the room.

As soon as the wraith blade manifested, it took hold of the Reaver, and (using it as a physical host) turned it into the soul-devouring weapon we know and love. :p As it impaled Raziel, I think that was when two incarnations of Raziel's soul caused in the paradox. The wraith-blade soul was trying to eat Soul Reaver Raz's soul, something it couldn't do. It never got the chance to eat Sarafan Raz's soul, or the paradox would have happened earlier.


Originally posted by TempySmurf
Or was it that his human soul was already part of the future soul reaver (because kain's version would already have Raziel's human soul in it if he got the sword after Raziel had it in the past...

Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Man this was confusing... LOL. Based on how I read this, I will "attempt" to explain a bit. ;) Raziel should technically have the same soul. Not two different souls. A part of his soul resides in his human form, the other resides in the blue guy. I would assume that this means he is not a whole soul at any point of the series. The reaver attached to him to complete itself. I believe that half of his soul remained attached to his corpse when he was ressurected into a vampire. In addition to that half of his soul, he received a part of Kain's. (Hence how he returned). The other half was still apart of the blade I am guessing. Hence why William had so much power in BO1 and how Kain acquired the wraith blade in BO1. ( I hope this made any damn sense...LOL)

This soul division seems really strange to me. I don't think Raziel's soul gets split or shared at all. Every incarnation is complete, be it the human version, the soul reaver version or the wraith-blade version. They are three, virtually identical souls that can co-exist at the end of SR2 because each belongs to a different time period. Really they are the exact same soul at different stages of development. Of course, they are not supposed to co-exist, and that is what can trigger the paradox - when they meet in time and space. When the wraith blade soul tries to eat Soul Reaver Raz's soul, they are briefly occupying the same time and space.


Originally posted by TempySmurf
The timeline for the soul reaver? This seems confusing as well, but I think I have it? Janos has it.. human raziel takes it.. raziel kills himself (which would mean raziel has to get rid of it before william gets it) .. william gets it.. raziel fixes the broken soul reaver.. later Someone takes it and stashes it for kain to find.. kain has it.. kain goes back in time and both william and kain have the soul reaver.. William's soul reaver is broken which later raziel fixes as stated above.. then kain has it.. (i don't actually remember this but i've read it somewhere in here that the reaver gets broken again when he hits raziel) so kain hits raziel with it breaking it again.. the soul reaver's soul is attached to raziel.. Does that seem right? I suppose I could just go take a look at the offical timeline and see if it matches up, but i'm not gonna.. I've read some people talking about plot holes for william and kain both having the sword.. am I missing something.. is the timeline all wrong?...

I think Moebius was the missing link between Sarafan Raz and William the Just. If Kain hadn't been there to save Raziel, we can assume he would have been absorbed fully into the blade. Moebius could have easily picked the sword up off the floor. It is a known fact that Moebius was an advisor to William the Just in BO1 and provided the young king with weapons (likely including the Soul Reaver).
Kain originally found the Soul Reaver in Avernus Cathedral. I have some doubts about how this fits into the timeline (it seemed to have been there far longer than thirty years), so I can't elaborate further.

I hope some of that makes some sense. All contradictions are welcome! :D

Raz
29th Jul 2002, 18:51
Kain originally found the Soul Reaver in Avernus Cathedral. I have some doubts about how this fits into the timeline (it seemed to have been there far longer than thirty years), so I can't elaborate further.

I will admit the Soul Reaver seems to have been in Avernus for longer than thirty years, but, as Moebius is involved, I guess he couldv'e taken the Soul Reaver back in time, kept it there for as long as he needed, then taken it back to a time which is a minute or two later than he took it... ;)

As for the Pillars of Nosgoth... I don't know if anyone's said this before, but, seeing as it's an oppurtunity to discuss them in detail, I'll take advantage of it... Now, the Pillars of Nosgoth were built as a device to banish the Hylden. Fairly obvious... What I was thinking about is why, instead of using plain old magic, each was tied to an element of the land. The obvious answer, of course, would be because when Blood Omen was made there weren't any sequels planned... ;)
However, I think I may've found a link... I think it's possible that the element that each pillar is linked to acts as a "battery". Whilst that pillar is pure and uncorrupted it doesn't poison it's source of energy which means it can work perfectly. However, once the pillar is corrupt it poisons it's source of energy which renders it useless until a dose of "pureness" can be injected back into the element. This of course occurs when a new guardian is chosen by the pillar. When each pillar is pure it means that they can act together and keep the dimensions apart. However, when the pillars become corrupted the pillars as a whole become weaker. Think of it as a set of generators... As each one fails the amount of energy contained within the hub (in this case the Pillars of Nosgoth) becomes less. If the pillars are totally corrupted they basically shut down...

Like I said, I'm not sure if anyone's said this before so, if they have, go easy on me! :)

TempySmurf
29th Jul 2002, 22:21
And another thing. How do the hu-mans fit into this? So you have the hylden and the ancients right? Where were the humans? Kain and, I think others, have mentioned how the ancients were godlike and so were the hylden. Did the humans worship them? Are they like gods to the humans or do they all just have really big egos? Now if the ancients were cursed why is it that there's only one ancient left who is cursed and all the rest of the vampires are actually human. Who would want to curse the humans? You'd think that the ancients would have done this? Unless of course they were cursed just like kain was. Has it ever been mentioned how Vorador makes others vampires (haven't played BO1 in a long time). Did Janos make Vorador (Isn't that what's been hinted at?) and then Vorador went psycho and started making millions for some nutty reason? Why would Janos want to curse the humans? Doesn't seem very nice, even if he's trying to perserve his bloodline, they're still not technically ancients. What's the deal with that? But then you have Raziel who sorta looks like he was transforming into an ancient, are the ancients actually humans who morphed into a higher state of being? And most humans would never reach that higher state of being because they don't live long enough? Cause Raziel is technically a human vampire and his curse wouldn't even give him the blood from an ancient since kain was cursed through magic, or was he? So he really has nothing in common with the ancients except he has the same curse.

Now what about the hylden and the ancients? Why are they upset with each other? Did they co-exist with each other or did they not know they existed until one went to the other's contenient or did they come from spaceships? LOL .. I'm kind of under the impression that you have a star wars type theme were one is focused on the mind and nature and magic and so on.. a sort of zen type state of being and the other is more focused on the physical world and manipulating it to their own purposes... aka technology and control and that sorta jazz.. so more materialisitc. They didn't like the way each other was going or the hylden tried to control the ancients and battle insued. If you look at the hylden they use machines and such to create their "magic".


Anyways, just more random thoughts and questions.

Power reaver
30th Jul 2002, 14:28
Wow I just thought of a theory which could be the reason why the BR impaled Raz . I think the answers are more down to earth then you guys think . It has more to do with Physics (I like Physics :D )

OK so lets assume that the effect of Moebiuses staff lifted as soon as Human Raz is killed . Thus the wraith Blade got activated . It coiled out of Razes arm and on the BR . Now lets goto the physics bit of things , as the wraith Blade coiled around the BR and developed a High Pressure(HP) outside the Physical Blade , thus creating a vacuum of sorts inside the blade . Thus the blade goes haywire in search of Balance and impales Raz , and starts sucking his soul (HP always goto LP area , ever done the balloon/lung experiment at school?) , so it can be possible that after the balance is achieved , the soul sucking stops . So suppose
The Wraith Blade = 1/2 of Razes soul
Raz = 1 of Razes soul
Thus for balance the BR will absorb 1/2 of Razes soul , thus Raz will still exist .

Now you guys will say "Then Y the heck does Kain rip out the Blade out of Razes chest"
Well suppose if he didnt , the Blade would get overflowed and explode , thus doing major damage . This can also support the "paradox is a part of the Original Timeline theory" which states the a paradox is a barrier that does not allow a Time Streamer to look at the whole Original Timeline , a kind of a security measure that does not allow time streamers to exploit there powers for Evil .

:cool:

Thoughts ? :)