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Nightwalker
28th Jul 2002, 16:40
Nightwalker walks into the center of the forum dragging a soapbox. Stops and looks around, then drops it and climbs on. Clearing her throat to get everyone's attention, she starts to speak.

I've recently heard from several FM authors and it seems that we, as players, are seriously deficient in one area and that is providing feedback to the people who make these marvellous adventures for us. They don't know if the missions are being played or enjoyed.

The big, impressive missions generate a lot of feedback and commentary, but the other missions seem to get dropped into the Thief community and then disappear without a ripple. I KNOW that most of these missions are being played, but the creators don't hear about it.

How hard is it to send an e-mail or a PM just to tell them you've played their mission?? I've been guilty of being too busy myself and being remiss in this area and I'm going to make sure that doesn't happen anymore.

There are months and months of painstaking work put into most of these. To be encouraged to make the effort to start again, these people need to hear that the missions are being played. It doesn't have to be elaborate, just a thank you. If you feel so inclined, then constructive criticism is usually also very welcome. "I enjoyed playing your mission, but I have some suggestions for things that might have improved it." or "but I ran into some problems in this area". Things along that line.

I, for one, want to see lots and lots more of these missions and for that to happen, we need to show our appreciation.

Nightwalker quietly climbs off her soapbox and trundles away, dragging it behind her, drops it neatly in the corner, then disappears silently into the shadows to resume her usual lurking.

schwaa
28th Jul 2002, 17:06
:)

Vanguard
28th Jul 2002, 17:22
That would only work if we players had a reliable and maintained directory of FM authors with their contact info and where the authors could go to update their contact info. The email listed in the FM's descriptions are often missing and many are dead because netizens change their ISPs and so their email changes. Having them update their FMs to update their email address and then resubmit the entire FM to the download sites would be far too much hassle for both the FM author and the download site administrator. There are also several download sites for Thief FMs and we wouldn't want to have multiple author contact lists that would definitely get out of sync. I don't think the moderators want to get stuck, either, with having to maintain such a list in a locked thread. But an unlocked thread would be more difficult to find since it would keep moving [down] in the list of posts in a forum - unless an unlocked thread can be assigned an attribute that keeps it at the top of the list.

At one time, I did try to send emails to several FM authors but found that only one in a dozen got received with the others getting returned as undeliverable or there was no reply so, to me, they effectively went into the Net's auto-discard bit bucket. I might've just happen to be unlucky in that the FMs for which I was trying to send email to its authors were the dead ones. In any case, I gave up trying to contact the authors because of the high failure rate in trying to do so. Granted that the newest FMs probably still have valid email address in their decriptions but I don't play according to latest release date.

Spitter
28th Jul 2002, 17:33
You could just post them on the forums (and hope the author(s) see it) - or, you might get lucky hunting the address from here (http://www.keepofmetalandgold.com/auth.htm) (although I have no idea at all how up-to-date it is; the address to my web page is the old one, for example).

Nightwalker
28th Jul 2002, 18:26
Sometimes it won't work, that's true, but I don't think it takes long to try, especially for some of the more recent ones that will definitely have up-to-date e-mails. The Private Message system works really well, too, for anyone who is still active on the forums. The one's that aren't probably no longer really care.

The authors' I was in touch with both are active in the forums and one of them has a recently released FM. He's received almost nothing in the way of feedback on it. I also recall a post on TTLG from someone saying they had sent an e-mail to the author of The Royal Garmyth and he's been so grateful to receive it, because he hadn't heard from anyone else!

Even if some of us make the effort sometimes, it might be enough, and I realize some of you probably already do, but I thought bringing it to people's attention might spur on some people who haven't even thought of doing it or used to and got out of the habit. :)

Keeper Collins
28th Jul 2002, 19:08
Well,I don't care if an FM is good or bad!They are all good to me!And the pepole who make them do deserve a lot of respect for making FM's.Now,I will admit some FM's are better then otheres but still if you know how to work Dromed porperly thats a BIG accomplisment in my Book!

Zaccheus
28th Jul 2002, 19:22
I think people should just post away, either here or on TTLG, because it is quite likely that the author will be on one of these forums.

Also, thief-thecircle still have the voting system going, and it takes 5 minutes to give an FM a good vote (say, an eight).

Lytha
28th Jul 2002, 20:25
!


True, Zaccheus! The voting system of the Circle! *ponders* Last time I tried to vote, it gave me nasty error messages? Haven't tried it for some weeks though.

Messaging/emailing the authors can be a two-edged sword. Nice if the author gets positive feedback, nasty if he's expected to reply to each of the messages, and nasty if he's supposed to answer questions concerning the FM now with private messages... depends on the multitude of questions though that arise concerning the mission. Hmph.

But, "no answer was received" does certainly <i>not</i> automatically count as "tossed unread into the wastebasket".

Squid
28th Jul 2002, 22:03
How about talking one of the better known Thief sites, like Komag's, into making a listing of active email addresses for FM authors? Or hosting a new set of email addresses just for them, so that they don't have to give out their personal addresses? I've seen this sort of thing done on several sites, but I've got no idea how hard it would be to set it up.

Squid

theBlackman
28th Jul 2002, 22:09
Originally posted by Squid
How about talking one of the better known Thief sites, like Komag's, into making a listing of active email addresses for FM authors? Or hosting a new set of email addresses just for them, so that they don't have to give out their personal addresses? I've seen this sort of thing done on several sites, but I've got no idea how hard it would be to set it up.

Squid

Good idea, but who tells the authors that this is were they look for KUDOS and feedback?? :D

If we can't find them now how do we find them to tell them. ( actually we could post a broadcast notice on all BBS and Forums with a general call " ATTN ALL FM AUTHORS") :D

RiCh
28th Jul 2002, 22:10
It’s a sad fact, but I guess we all take FMs for granted now a days? And it’s a shame that certain FMs may not get the credit they deserve. The problem is, no matter what happens it’ll still be only the better quality or well known FMs that will ever get a mention and praise, either through email or on the forums. I don’t think FM authors would appreciate comments about their FMs if they were all negative. It’s a fact that some FM builders are better than others and that will always be the way, for better or worse! Because of this certain FMs stand out more than others, it doesn’t mean that authors of these ‘lesser’(so to speak) FMs didn’t work just as hard as the authors of more well known FMs. It’s just unfortunately you see this in every aspect of life, be it FMs, games, films etc it’s only the better ones that will ever be remembered :(

What’s the solution? Everyone email FM creators thanking him or her for helping keep Thief alive that little bit longer? That’s never going to happen! The voting AND reviewing systems are the easiest way of expressing thanks to FM builders. But you can’t give every FM 10 out of 10! So again it’ll only be the better FMs that get rewarded with a decent mark. The thing is, just because an FM builder has spent months and months creating an FM, that doesn’t then give them the right to be showered in praise unfortunately. After all they made the FM because they wanted to, not because it was needed!

I personally vote for the FMs I like at the TTLG! But not the ones I don’t! I’ve always said I appreciate ALL FMs and the time and effort people put into them. I may not like them all but appreciate nevertheless! FM builders should make FMs because they enjoy doing so, not for the praise they may or may not receive afterwards. But I guess we all live for a little praise now and again don’t we?

theBlackman
28th Jul 2002, 22:18
My mother, rest her soul, used to say: "A fanny patter, always makes out." :D So strokes are good.

Even the worst FM's have something to offer. A new twist on the story. A particularly interesting piece of scenery, or situation.

Praise for the good parts is deserved.

In RL I met and meet guitar players of every ilk. I never met one (even one you might consider the worst) from whom I did not learn something, a new lick, and interpretation I had not thought of or a tuning or chord pattern.

Nothing is completely bad. So a pat on the fanny for the good stuff, with a polite non-mention of the dogs -unless requested- would not hurt.

Komag
28th Jul 2002, 23:02
Originally posted by Squid
How about talking one of the better known Thief sites, like Komag's, into making a listing of active email addresses for FM authors? Or hosting a new set of email addresses just for them, so that they don't have to give out their personal addresses? I've seen this sort of thing done on several sites, but I've got no idea how hard it would be to set it up.

Squid

As linked in Spitter's thread, it already exists:
www.keepofmetalandgold.com/auth.htm

I need to do some updating there though, and if anyone know of corrections or updated e-mail addresses, feel free to let me know :)

Gumdrop
28th Jul 2002, 23:17
LMAO Blackie! :D

I have to say I have received quite a few emails from players that don't post on the forums asking for help or a little hint. All of them have then sent me a follow up email thanking me and some even taken the time to tell me what they liked or disliked, or generally how they went about playing.

It really does make me want to carry on creating (dispite a few major setbacks) when I know people have enjoyed what I've done. And although I don't get to play that many Fm's myself, I did start emailing the creators a while back.

I don't really see the need for a huge list of addresses, as most (if not all) FM creators visit the forums. Just posting your thaughts about any FM's you play - like Clayman's Commentary series, would be the best idea IMHO. This in turn should generate more discussion on FM's in general. :)

Peter_Smith
29th Jul 2002, 00:11
I agree, Nightwalker. Athough I am sometimes too lazy to correspond with an FM designer, I often do so. I have always received a response from them, even from a Japanese designer who does not speak a word of English (that was an interesting exercise in machine translation:)). It is clear that the designers appreciate my interest and comments. I should say that it is important to keep comments constructive. Nobody wants to be abused.

I intend to make a post with comments about the C3 contest FM's in a little while. I feel compelled to do this because there were a lot of good missions, and they were all enjoyable to play, some more than others, of course. The voting process necessarily places more attention on the cream of the crop, and I think the authors need to know that their efforts are appreciated even if they are not prize winners.

The same applies to all FM's.

Huntress
29th Jul 2002, 21:09
to at least put something on the boards about the FM I'm playing (not just questions :D ) and I don't play them all...I try and be rather selective about the types of games I'll play (undead's are usually not downloaded in my case) but I do have a couple, one of which I'm playing now...the converted Baffords' for T2 :eek: :D which I started continuing last night after finishing Lord Ashton's. But yes, I do need to do this more as well... ;) Our unsung hero's of FM's should at least be acknowledged for their efforts! So just in case...THANK YOU FM CREATOR'S...your efforts are really appreciated by us players...you do keep Thief alive for us! :) Ta and Good Hunting!

ChristineS
29th Jul 2002, 22:13
I have recieved e-mails from players who need a hint, constructive criticism and also e-mails from players who want to let me know that they have enjoyed the missions. It's also that feedback that want me to carry on with Dromed.
It was also an e-mail, that brought me to the Eidos-Forum. I didn't know it, till Speedy sent me a very nice e-mail with the link to it :D
And Peter Smith you are not lazy, you are a very constructive critic. :)
I have never get an e-mail with something like "it's garbarge", it was always fair. But I can understand, that a bad feedback like for "Hush, hush..." the author let give it up, when he get that feeling, that nobody like it.

theBlackman
30th Jul 2002, 00:12
Originally posted by ChristineS
I have recieved e-mails from players who need a hint, constructive criticism and also e-mails from players who want to let me know that they have enjoyed the missions. It's also that feedback that want me to carry on with Dromed.
It was also an e-mail, that brought me to the Eidos-Forum. I didn't know it, till Speedy sent me a very nice e-mail with the link to it :D
And Peter Smith you are not lazy, you are a very constructive critic. :)
I have never get an e-mail with something like "it's garbarge", it was always fair. But I can understand, that a bad feedback like for "Hush, hush..." the author let give it up, when he get that feeling, that nobody like it.

Entschuldigunge mir bitte.
Ich habbe deinen "kinder" nicht geschpielt. Aber, von alles, habbe ich nur gutte worten gehoren.

Und muss ich auch sagen, deine English sind vielen besser als meine Deutsch.

Thanks for the FM's and the chance to practice my very poor German. After 55 years of non-use, I should practice more. :D

amievil?
30th Jul 2002, 01:41
i entered the realm of the internet in febuary of 99(was on before then but with no computer of my own), ive had dilligaf_77@yahoo.com since feb99. anyone can email me and curse my fms :D

seriously i think alot of the fm authors of 99 have gone on and the few that have remained are usually on the forums. anyone from 2001 up is probably still around in one form or another. i think we need a full on where are they now thread and try to reach each author and have them post something in said thread. that would be hella cool:)

Zaccheus
30th Jul 2002, 08:51
Originally posted by theBlackman
Ich habbe deinen "kinder" nicht geschpielt.

You didn't play with her children?
:confused:
:D

Lytha
30th Jul 2002, 12:59
Don't you think of your missions as your "babies", Zaccheus? I mean, they take some months of an exhausting "pregnancy" (dromeding), and afterwards, they are living their lives of their own on the computers of the players.

(maybe it's just me and I'm weird). :p

Gumdrop
30th Jul 2002, 13:49
Originally posted by Lytha
Don't you think of your missions as your "babies", Zaccheus? I mean, they take some months of an exhausting "pregnancy" (dromeding), and afterwards, they are living their lives of their own on the computers of the players.

I don't think the pains of mission creation can compare to child birth...But portalise my particulars - it must come close! :D

Zaccheus
30th Jul 2002, 15:07
Originally posted by Lytha
Don't you think of your missions as your "babies", Zaccheus? I mean, they take some months of an exhausting "pregnancy" (dromeding), and afterwards, they are living their lives of their own on the computers of the players.

(maybe it's just me and I'm weird). :p

Oh - I see.
:)

ChristineS
30th Jul 2002, 16:24
theBlackman :)

Hmmm, I have not seen my fms as babies... But, like all mamies I always have pictures of my children with me, I have also put one in my fms.... and fm-authors have always screenshots of their missions..... :D

Zaccheus
30th Jul 2002, 17:29
I see the FMs more like a work of art, like a painting.

Saturnine
30th Jul 2002, 17:37
Well this thread is working Nightwalker! :D
I just got a really nice email from a taffer called Jericho, he told me what he thought about the whole mission from the story and characters to the atmosphere and scenery, made me smile ---> :)
Nice guy too.

Anyway thanks for this thread NW, I'm sure it will make a lot of FM builders happy!

theBlackman
30th Jul 2002, 17:44
Originally posted by Zaccheus
I see the FMs more like a work of art, like a painting.

I paint a little, write a little, compose poetry and songs and I feel that the pangs of creation for any artistic endeavor is like creating a child.

You produce the finished item and turn it loose into the world, a thing you gave birth to. If someone abuses it, or subverts its beyond your shaping, you react just as if one of your children was abused.

I think all of these, FM's included, are "Children of the mind" and heart.

So "kinder" was appropriate from my point of view.

Nightwalker
30th Jul 2002, 18:44
I'm glad it's working, Saturnine! Even if only a few people remember, it will be a good thing. :)

I have an enormous amount of respect for people who create things, whether it be FMs, literature, art, music, etc. and then have the ability to put it out there for the public to criticize and, hopefully, praise. I don't think I could do it, so my hat's off to all of you!

Lytha
30th Jul 2002, 18:58
I am glad that I am not the only one who sees the results of creative processes as "babies" or "children", tBm. :)


At the moment, it's more like a mind-bending puzzle though. (a difficult month of the pregnancy.) ;)

*rolls eyes and starts to listen to very loud music with lots of heavy drumbeat*

schwaa
31st Jul 2002, 06:41
Quote Lytha:
At the moment, it's more like a mind-bending puzzle though. (a difficult month of the pregnancy.)
End quote

Haha, that reminds me of the other day at work, a lady I was helping told me that men didn't understand REAL labor. I said I did some concrete work before, then I relaized what she was talking about.:D

But I bet she has never mothered an FM
:p