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Azrael
28th Jul 2002, 04:56
...like the thread title said, here's something to think about, but first look at the pic:
http://nosgothblood.no.sapo.pt/pics/murals/bo2/mural01.jpg

He have five fingers not three but five but this isn't what we see at the SR2 murals...this is something to think about, did the first Ancients have five fingers before the curse?

http://nosgothblood.no.sapo.pt/pics/murals/bo2/mural09.jpg

http://nosgothblood.no.sapo.pt/pics/murals/bo2/mural02.jpg

And im going to risk saying that these depictions are the Hylden as creators of Humanity...and Ancients alike.

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2002, 05:22
Okay, so if we shuffle the order you posted those around a bit.

The first one depicts the Sarafan Lord (in pre-banished form) Killing an ancient. This signifies that the heart is the key to all of them. Without the heart they can't function, but I would assume they go dormant without it. (Hence why Janos magically comes back to life). He wasn't dead, he was dormant. (My theory anyway) ;)

Take the third picture next. This would be The Sarafan Lord (pre-banished form) conducting an experiment on an ancient, for whatever purpose.

Take the middle picture of the Sarafan Lord and the Seer (pre banished form) comforting a human. Now we know that they enslaved humans in the Hylden city.Could this be the Hylden testing out their creation?

I think the theory Az was trying to get across is, did the Hylden create humans to serve them?

I think its sketchy but plausable. 1. We don't yet know what happend to all the ancient people. (Janos' race). Nor do we know for a fact that humans inhabited Nosgoth at the time of the Hylden/Ancient war. I understand that Vorador is a primitive human turned vampire. The SR2 script says that Vorador has been through a lot in his time - even more traumatic than the demise of his race during the purges and the loss of his sire. Could this indicate that Vorador had originally been a part of the experimentation? Could he have been made into a human and eventually sought his sire to become reborn under the blood curse? Or perhaps he was simply cursed along with the rest of the ancients at the time of the Hylden banishment.

The possibilites here are endless. I know this sounds far-fetched but it does indicate another "hole" in the plotline. I surely hope we can get some answers to this in SR3. (It's killing me I swear. :p)

Laughing Storm
28th Jul 2002, 07:05
I think the first would depict a Hylden or the lord, killing(battling) an ancient. Remember the two races battled for dominance.

The second, I don't see how you got the Seer out of that one. All I see is two Hylden petting a human or whatever they are doing to him. He doesn't seem to be an ancient, no wings or fangs. Just looks like a slave or something.

The third looks like a Hylden just killed an ancient or finished torturing one and is examining his work maybe. Not sure on that one.

It seems as though Az is suggesting at a theory that the Hylden created the Humans. I don't see much to support it, but its possible. Since both the Ancients(orig vamps) and the Hylden were Gods at one point.

Vordador was the leader of the Cabal, maybe it was suggesting to such things as the events just prior and during BO2. He and the vamps came close to being extinct, but then that isn't 'a lot' of trauma, so it has to be referring to Janos's era too.

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2002, 07:14
Ah yes, I forgot...new people don't necessarily come across old topics. ;)

There was a heavy debate on the murals before where I concluded that the Seer is also of Hylden origins. It is also the same way I explained the Sarafan Lord (pre-banishment). I am not sure if I copied it from the old forum. But I will locate that for you to give you a chance to look it over and debate it further.

I agree with Az's theroy being possible and await more evidence to support it.

I do remember the war for dominance, but in that mural it is pretty clear to see who's beating on who. (And yes, I know who ultimately won the battle).

Vorador is an ancient. He was a prehistoric human who was sired long before the events of SR2. This is confirmed by Amy Hennig (Director of the LoK Series). I will find that for you also.
Being a prehistoric being, most likely originating from about the same time of the Ancient vs. Hylden battle or soon after, he had plenty of time to experience trauma other than the purges and what we know as bad spots in the stories. We still don't know how he reacted to the murder ofhis own sire (Janos) nor do we know what he experienced in his past. Was he married, did he end up feeding off of his family? Things of that nature.

Laughing Storm
28th Jul 2002, 07:29
Ah, yes. I have heard of the theory of the Seer being a Hylden. Didn't read the debate though. I find it strange she would help Kain if she were.

The reason why I say it can't be the seer in the middle one, is cause the Seer is female, and those two hylden seem to be males.

Ah, Amy H. That is the person you were referring to in the other thread. :lol Indeed, I am new, more so then I thought. :lol

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2002, 07:31
Its funny that you ask why she would help Kain (the Seer that is). I do hope you find time to read this debate because I did comment on it.

(REPOST)The Seer is Revealed...Well, Partly..LOL (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=727)

Enjoy!

EDIT Also for your reading enjoyment L.S. (and to help with your current speculations) I dug this up for you as well.

(REPOST) Warp's answers from Amy (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169&highlight=warps+answers+from)

warpsavant
28th Jul 2002, 07:53
Mural 01 is a war
Mural 02 is experiments/death upon our enemies(Vae Victus)
Mural 09 is a prisoner maybe

Laughing Storm
28th Jul 2002, 07:55
Hmm, quite a bit of reading in those two Umah. I'll read them before I head to sleep, and get back to you on my thoughts tomorrow.

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2002, 07:56
Yeah, but admit it. You liked this theory. ;) :p

Give us a break, we're grasping at straws now. LOL.

Azrael
28th Jul 2002, 08:02
Offers???? No way, Throw it right in his eyes... ohh yeah i hadn't forgot that biscuit "accident" Wasp...

:p ;) :p :D :p ;) :p

Ok i really need to sleep...

warpsavant
28th Jul 2002, 08:06
Umah's got some mighty fine biscuits..... :p

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2002, 08:07
Originally posted by warpsavant
Umah's got some mighty fine biscuits..... :p

Speaking of which...you still have yet to "show me yours" :p

Azrael
28th Jul 2002, 08:08
Oh i forgot, sorry L.S. but im not with the head nor the mood to discuss my own topic(or others).

Man i feel like someone that were kicked everywhere... lol...need a good night of sleeping...

Laughing Storm
28th Jul 2002, 08:11
No a problem bro, I am sure you have valid and good points. I'd rather you waited till I read the two posts Umah reposted for me. Get a good nights rest man.

Azrael
28th Jul 2002, 08:11
No wayyyyy, i don't want a biscuit talk here....



j/k here take a miscuit...
**hands over Umah and Warp**

warpsavant
28th Jul 2002, 08:13
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen


Speaking of which...you still have yet to "show me yours" :p


http://lokicons.homestead.com/files/bo2/kain12.jpg

Azrael
28th Jul 2002, 08:14
Originally posted by Laughing Storm
No a problem bro, I am sure you have valid and good points. I'd rather you waited till I read the two posts Umah reposted for me. Get a good nights rest man.

Ok thanks for the compreension, here have a muffin...
http://www.chefscatalog.com/products/p/CC1240_p.jpg

But don't eat them all :)

Azrael
28th Jul 2002, 08:16
Originally posted by warpsavant



http://lokicons.homestead.com/files/bo2/kain12.jpg

Warpppppp..sorry but i don't see any biscuit/muffin in there... so where are them?

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2002, 09:00
Originally posted by warpsavant



http://lokicons.homestead.com/files/bo2/kain12.jpg

O...M....F....G!!!! :eek: :eek: ***begins to drool and faints instead. She has learned her lesson when asking warp to show of his "mighty fine looking" biscuits****

Reaper007
28th Jul 2002, 20:25
ok i only read the first few posts so dont go off on me if u dont like what i write.

when i saw the first pic it looked a lot like the sarafan lord from bo2, looks a lot like a hlyden, just look at the head, he has those wierd horn things, remeber in bo2 u hear the hlyden saying something like being banished to the other dimension caused their apperance to change. also look behind him u can see something sticking out/on to his back, looks a lot like what the sarafan lord was wearing, his armor. u see it well in bo2 when kain arrives at the hlyden city.

if u look at the victim(had to put my britness to the max), he has 5 fingers, the only vamp i remember having 5 fingers in bo2 was Kain, raz has 3. the fangs tell me he was vamp(hard to see but they r there). also he has wings, not like janos, more like raz in the SR1 intro.

also if u compare the first one with the 2 with their hands on the human u can see the skull ridge's r diffent. the one with the 2 and the human have a complete skull ridge, the other 2 pics have a guy with split ridges, like in bo2.

maybe these r before and after pics.

Reaper007

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2002, 21:56
Originally posted by Reaper007
ok i only read the first few posts so dont go off on me if u dont like what i write.

when i saw the first pic it looked a lot like the sarafan lord from bo2, looks a lot like a hlyden, just look at the head, he has those wierd horn things, remeber in bo2 u hear the hlyden saying something like being banished to the other dimension caused their apperance to change. also look behind him u can see something sticking out/on to his back, looks a lot like what the sarafan lord was wearing, his armor. u see it well in bo2 when kain arrives at the hlyden city.

if u look at the victim(had to put my britness to the max), he has 5 fingers, the only vamp i remember having 5 fingers in bo2 was Kain, raz has 3. the fangs tell me he was vamp(hard to see but they r there). also he has wings, not like janos, more like raz in the SR1 intro.

also if u compare the first one with the 2 with their hands on the human u can see the skull ridge's r diffent. the one with the 2 and the human have a complete skull ridge, the other 2 pics have a guy with split ridges, like in bo2.

maybe these r before and after pics.

Reaper007

LOL. We aren't going to "go off" on you. ;)
Yes, the Hylden's appearance did change (which lead to part of the reason why the Ancients - Janos' species - were cursed).

It isn't clear at this point, how many fingers the Ancient's had pre Hylden battle. I would assume that they may have originally started with 5 fingers and as their natural evolution occured, they became 3 cloven hands. (See Kain in the SR series). As for the wings not being feathered, I believe this is due to the murals being from the Hylden perspective. If you check the murals in Squiddy's chamber in the SR series, you will notice that the Ancient's wings are feathered not flesh. (These murals I would assume are from the ancient's perspective, because the Ancient's look the same in the various murals of the various forges.)

As for the ridges on the Hylden's heads, I would assume that in the murals with the battle scene, and the experimentation scene, these immediately followed the fighting. (Meaning that it could possibly be battle damage). In the middle mural (with the human) I would assume that they've had time to properly heal their wounds and appear a bit more normal Hylden-like.

Ranmyaku
28th Jul 2002, 22:02
I dun know about you guys, but I think that second one is off the Hylden draining the human of his mental energy.

Whheeeee! It's warp's biscuits. Mighty fine ones too. ^_^ *drools*

Laughing Storm
29th Jul 2002, 06:59
Ok Umah. I read your Seer theory. Quite good, and well thought out. But, I am inclined to go against it until there is further evidence to back it up more. I don't see her being a sibling, if she is indeed full hylden. I also don't see the SL depending on her for success, if he did, he would have known Kain was still alive and what Kain was up to, and when and where he would be almost all of the time. I mean if she helped to the point he had already gotten to, why stop helping all of a sudden. She could have refused outright, being able to fortell coming events.

I didn't pay close attention to the murals, but if they mostly look like the ones above, then I don't see how you got the Seer out of any of them. They all look male. Perhaps there is something to that, that we don't see any female Hylden in the game.(I'm pretty sure we didn't, but I am not positive, as I didn't pay close attention to the enemies in Hylden City. The Hylden with the blades was a male, but the ones with the blue clothing, I am not totally sure about)

One question to you all, why does the Sarafan Lord have to be the lord of the Hylden or the strongest. Why can't he be some general or a more powerful one. Everyone seems to assume he is the Janos of the Hylden. Also, both races started as Gods, and I was under the assumption they both ruled(or were Gods) in Nosgoth, and then a great War broke out and one race was defeated and banished. I thought the War weakend both races to the point that they became Fallen and lost their Godhood.

I agree on your theory about the Elder though. But I would say that he starts the war so he can weaken both races enough to eventually claim Nosgoth as his own.

warpsavant
29th Jul 2002, 07:23
I think the Hylden were winning and would have won the war. It's possible the Seer foresaw the Hyldens defeat and was thus cast out of their society. Many of the Hylden believed it is their destiny to defeat the vampires, I figured this comes from the fact that they were superior in the Early days and would have won if not for divine intevention on the part of some dood named Raziel.
Someone should have an archive of all the Hylden City murals and the SR2 murals all in one place.


Sarafan Lord doesnt have to be the strongest, he may have been the strongest at the time he broke thru, but, all we know for sure was that it was he who broke thru and created the gate. He sure sounds like he is in charge. But maybe not.

Laughing Storm
29th Jul 2002, 07:27
Ok, also just finished reading the Q&A repost. Helpful, tells me a lot i didn't know. Ok, so based on my limited experience of the series(as I seem to be the only one to play it once through), when they are talking about the lost city........for some reason it sounds a lot like it would be a city of the Ancients, lost due to their extinction and connecting to the Lake of the Dead because of this, buried beneath the abyss. Maybe the fact that a godlike race was driven to extinction, the trauma resulting from it would create such a place. I don't know. Does this sound really dumb?

Ok, can someone clarify this for me, the Elder was found beneath the Pillars in SR2, right? Could he not in fact recieve his blood sacrifices through the Pillars(on the theory that he is Hash)? He could in fact be behind the Circle as a whole. I got a hint of this with the answer saying "A: Actually, Anarcrothe says "Stand with us, Mortanius, or die" (which is a little different than "serve us")
When he says "us," Anarcrothe also means the Circle as an entity -- but there's a deeper meaning, too, which hasn't been revealed" Since the Elder would be residing deep below the surface under the Pillars. I also noticed she said something about some confusing things may result from the artists not getting a chance to fix things do to producers deadlines. Just a thought.

Ok, I think the fact that Kain broke Raz's wings did have more to do with then just escaping a toss into the abyss. I think it has something to do with why Kain tells Raz that Janos must stay dead. Perhaps that is the key to returning them to the state of Godhood. I also think it would tie into what happens to Raz's clan.

Ok, as I said, I am not too clear on some of my speculation points due to my memory being a tad hazy, so don't flame me if I am way of on somethings. lol

Umah, I have to thank you for posting that to me as well, both were very helpful and furthered my understanding, at least I think they did. Thanks Umah!

Laughing Storm
29th Jul 2002, 07:37
Sounds good to me, I was never denying any of the theories, just saying that they'd need more proof to be a sure thing. The way SL talked to Janos could easily show a sign of a superiority complex, wrought maybe by them being more powerful before? Perhaps.

The SL could have been the most powerful at the time, or he could just be a really powerful one sent through to hold the gate open, and in their arrogance think that would be enough to thwart the vamps and anything else that would try to oppose them.