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Laughing Storm
27th Jul 2002, 07:34
Ok, I don't know if anyone brought this up and if its been discussed, then I apologize for a rehash. I have a thought and it involves a plot hole. Here goes:

In BO2, if you think about it, Raziel and Co. should be already made or in the game. My reasoning is this: Raziel and Co. were killed and then turned into vamps shorly after the Janos incident, in which Raziel tears his heart out. Well, in BO2 when you first see Janos, Kain mentions something to the affect of "But you should be dead, your heart ripped out" That would mean Raziel already killed Janos in the name of the Sarafan. But where are they? Not mentioned or no appearences in the game by any of them. Also, Raziel is his first lieutenant, yet Magnus is his greatest General in his army. The fact that he had an army and a General suggests he had lieutenants as well. Yet no Raziel. The thought is that Raziel and Co. are made after the events in BO2, roughly 100 years later, but part of the story in BO2 goes against that thought. Also, in the end there is no longer a driving force in the Sarafan, but in SR2 when you go back in time there seems to be someone directing them. Another factor is when you go back in time and see the human Raziel kill Janos, Janos looks more healthy and youthful. When you encounter him in BO2, he seems aged and more evolved. So it can't be that Janos escaped the Sarafan gate and had his heart re-torn out later on. The time machine can't explain it either really. If Kain goes back in time and creates Raziel and Co., it still wouldn't fit as they weren't in BO2 and Kain looks 'evolved' when he has them as his lieutenants, and he doesn't look thus in BO2. Was Raziel already cast in the abyss? Doubtful since Kain ruled all of Nosgoth in the intro to SR1. I can name other tid-bits that don't tie in right, but I will later if needed.

Has anyone else thought of this? Or have any thoughts?

KainSyndrome101
27th Jul 2002, 07:54
It states in the SR2 timeline that Kain raised the six lieutenants roughly 100 years after the events of BO2, and then Raziel is thrown into the Abyss 1,000 years later. Janos looks older because he was in the device for a long time, sapping his energy. He was weak after he got out, which might explain his older look. When you go back in time, 500 years before Blood Omen, the leader of the Sarafan is Malek, and the sponsors of the order are the Circle of Nine. After the Sarafan brethren get killed by Raziel, the order ceases. But it is soon brought up again after the Sarafan Lord breaks through the Demon Realm.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't see any holes.

Laughing Storm
27th Jul 2002, 08:00
Agreed on the Janos point to a degree, but even still......he restored a lot of youth in that case. Still doesn't clear up the hole. Janos had his heart ripped out, by the Sarafan as Kain and Janos state in BO2. Sounds a lot like what Raziel does to him. That fact alone gives merit to my suggestion to the hole.

Umah Bloodomen
27th Jul 2002, 08:00
Kain states his immediate intentions (hinting at the ressurection of the Sarafan bretheren at the end of chapter 11)


The war was over, and yet there was another battle to be fought. The cruel masters of Nosgoth, the Sarafan - now leaderless - still had to be put down.
There were cities to be rebuilt, and order to be restored. And a new rule, my rule would then begin.
To the victor go the spoils. At last, Nosgoth would be mine.

You need to remember that Janos died at the hands of the Sarafan Raziel at least 1000 years prior to the events in BO2. (I'll get the exact time confirmed for you after I am finished posting). The Sarafan bretheren were long dead at the time of BO2. Raziel hadn't been conceived yet as a liutenant. Magus was Kain's greatest general during the 200 years following the events of BO1. Kain fell in battle and slept for 200 more years. Giving Magus the chance to be captured during that time.

There is no one directing the Hylden at this point. I am not clear on where you gained that opinion from. Kain mentions the "puppetmasters" which could mean the Hylden themselves or perhaps Hash'ak'gik. (Unclear at this point).

Janos' appearance in BO2 suggests that vampires do indeed evolve over time. The theories on the SR forum indicate that Janos was resurrected sometime immediately following the events of SR2. (I am sure SR3 will clarify this for us). You seem to be contradicting your statements a bit. The time you see Janos in SR2 (when you dispose of him) is way before the time you see him in BO2. There was no escaping the Hylden gate, although it still isnt clear where he went.

The order of the games goes as this.

The ending events of SR2 (Janos' death)

BO1 (Kain being born and going through his quest)
The beginning of SR2 (Raziel emerging from the chronoplast)

(Keep in mind William was dead and I am sure Kain was off creating what would be his early BO2 empire).

BO2 (400 years after BO1)

SR1 (I believe within 1000 years of BO2)

The future events of SR2 (Exact future unknown at this point)

There are certian things we havent seen (notice we didn't see BO2 Kain in SR2 creating his empire) I am sure all of this will come together in SR3 and BO3 for that matter.

Blah...someone correct me if I am wrong...I'm still looking through the timeline threads...LOL

EDIT I need to learn to type faster eh? :p

EDIT 2 Corrected my "zero" error. :p

Laughing Storm
27th Jul 2002, 08:08
No, you misread my post.....or I didn't clarify well. My whole point was that Raziel should already have been made if Janos had his heart already ripped out by the human Raziel. I am well aware of the timeline and such. Also, I never said someone was driving the Hylden, just the Sarafan. If you are agreeing that the Janos/Raizel occurance already happened by BO2, then how is it possible that Raziel and Co. are not present. They were humans and did not live long thanks to SR Raziel, so how could Kain make them into Vampires centuries after they were long dead? From decaded bones? Also remember that it is clearly stated that Raziel is the first of Kain's lieutenants.

Edit:Magnus is captured before Kain loses the war. Remember Magnus says he tries to kill the Sarafan Lord the day before, but was defeated and had his mind robbed from him and sent to the EP.

Janos has wings, so it's not impossible for one to think that he flew away before going through.....but I don't think he did that. The Hylden nearly escaped, so it plausible to think Janos did as well. But I don't know, we need another game to tell us more :lol

Umah Bloodomen
27th Jul 2002, 08:18
After the day I've had, I probably misinterpreted something. Don't mind me. :p

Just as we didn't see the antics of BO2 Kain in the beginning of SR2, we did not see the SR Raziel appear in BO2.

Raziel and company are not present in BO2 because there vampyric selves have yet to be created. (Following the events of BO2). Soul Reaving Raz had the ability to travel through time through the Chronplast. His bretheren did not because they never became little Soul Reavers. LoL.

As far as BO2 is concerend, the Sarafan Bretheren are long dead and entombed. Yet Kain implies of their rebirth following this time.

You are correct that Raziel is the first. In order they go like this:

Raziel, Turel, Dumah, Rahab, Zephon and Melchiah. (If I am remembering correctly).

Kain is an alchemic vampire. One created through Necromancy not through the bite as Vorador or Janos would sire. Somehow after BO2 he discovered a way to raise vampires of his own. (Remember in his conversations to Vorador he said that siring was something he himself could never do). Kain's method for siring was supernatural. He breathed a portion of his own soul into the remains of the Sarafan. The first one received the most of Kain's soul (hence why Raziel didn't become disfigured as he evolved). As Kain went down the line, the evolution was more extreme and devloved. (Hence their horrid appearances).

Laughing Storm
27th Jul 2002, 08:27
Damn good point! :lol Though, it still seems wierd that he can do it to dust......if you think about it, their bones would be dust by the time he made them then.

When I said we don't see Raziel and Co., I meant before Raziel is SR Raz, but instead the Vamp Raz. and Vamp Co. But your point above is a good one if he can in fact make a vamp from dust. I need to replay the first game I am thinking......though he didn't say the siring part in BO1, cause I remember hearing it recently.

Raziel was never given the chance to evolve and become disfigured like his Sarafan brothers.....as he was cast in to the abyss while they all looked like human vamps.

blincoln
27th Jul 2002, 08:27
What Umah said =).

If Nosgoth has magic that allows the souls of long-dead humans to be restored to their corpses, I don't have trouble believing that it could make them look nice again.

Umah Bloodomen
27th Jul 2002, 08:37
Depending on where Kain received the knowledge of resurrecting the Sarafan, I would assume that the spell he used enabled the regeneration of the bodies.

There is another thread floating around here that suggests the Sarafan bretheren were mummified much like the ancient Egyptians. I believe this to be true because they are such revered individuals (similar to a pharoh would be revered).
I am willing to bet that William the just was also mummified in his own sarcophagus.

Now don't get me wrong, mummies aren't perfect or totally intact, they still have some decomposition affects. Although their overall body may still remain in one piece and some of the flesh, hair and nails could be apparent. If this was the case, the Sarafan brethren merely reversed the effects of their mortal death, thus restoring them to their human/vampirish appearances.

Other than that, I agree with Blinc...there is definatly magic afoot. :p

Laughing Storm
27th Jul 2002, 08:39
A thought just occured to me, Raziel served Kain 1000 years before being thrown into the Abyss. So SR taking place 100 years after BO2 wouldn't work out. Kain himself would only be 500. Also remember, 100 years isn't enough time for Kain to evolve to the way he looks in SR and for him to conquer all of Nosgoth and for it to turn out the way it looks in SR.

Note, in the intro to SR, Raziel says he served Kain for a millennium(1000 years).

Edit: Mummies would do it then.....:lol
Hopefully Edios will clear things up a lot in the next installments of each.

Umah Bloodomen
27th Jul 2002, 08:45
Forgot a zero on that. I will edit it appropriately. I am glad one of us caught it. :p ;)

I believe that the Sarafan brethren were raised immediately after BO2 as I've stated. We just haven't seen what occured between the events post BO2 and pre SR1 FMV.

I am curious as to the brethren's rise to power, Kain's evolutionary changes (as well as the brethren's although they didn't appear too evolved in SR1's FMV). What exactly did happen to the Razielim Clan? I am sure you see where else I am headed with this. ;)

Laughing Storm
27th Jul 2002, 08:54
Indeed, Raziel was in the abyss for 'eternity' as he puts it, so I don't know what could have happened inbetween then and his 'awakening'. Likely his clan was wiped out by his brethren and Kain. Though it seems to me that Kain fell into a disregard for his remaining 'lieutenants' after Raziel was thrown into the Abyss. Kain didn't evolve at all and they did, and not for the better it seemed. They seemed to evolve more into monsters then into a more superior vampire, Kain seems as though he just come's closer to returning vamps to their godhood, though he seems to be the only one down that road of the vamps you run into. We shall see what Edios has in store.

For now, I need sleep since its 5am...........Nice meeting you all and discussing the series with you all, I look forward to doing more :D

Umah Bloodomen
27th Jul 2002, 09:03
The pleasure was all mine. I am sure you'll come across me lurking here again tomorrow.

I'll leave you with an interesting topic.


**Impersonates Mike Myers' character, Linda Richman, from the SNL Coffee Talk skits***

Raziel is hurled into the abyss and dies. Meanwhile his clan simply vanishes or dies off simultaneously. Discuss. :p

keepittrue
27th Jul 2002, 09:39
Mummified, c'mon this is game, how about they still look neat because its a game.

I personnally dont think Kain raised Raziel directly after BO2, although I could be wrong. As a matter of fact it would make sense that he did raise Raziel after BO2 because the SR2 site states Raziel is nearly as old as Kain. I dont think the others were raised untill hundreds of years later. Maybe each liutenant is 100yrs apart.

As for Raziels clan I dont think (and I can almost be 100% certain) that Kain killed them off. They more likely would have something to do with the Ancients or Hylden. I am leaning more towards the Hylden.

KainSyndrome101
27th Jul 2002, 17:56
I'm gonna' say it one more time: The Sarafan Brethren were resurrected by Kain roughly a century later. That's what it says in the SR2 timeline in the extras.

Why would he wait such a long time to raise them? Perhaps he needed a little help with destroying the Sarafan after BO2. So after about 100 years, he raises the lieutenants, and they destroy the Sarafan for good.

Laughing Storm
27th Jul 2002, 20:08
We know the timeline and what the sites say, but based on the information the stories in the games give us it doesn't seem entirely right. That is what we are disscussing Kain.

If the SR2 site states that Raziel is almost as old as Kain, then he had to have been made before BO2, and not 100 years after. 500+ years isn't really an 'almost as old' difference to me.

I am gonna go with the mummy thing for now, only way to explain them being made after BO2.

To your final thoughts Umah. Only thing I can think of right off that bat from your statements, is Kain planned ahead and had them taken care of as he was carring out Raz's sentance or they simply went into hiding or Mobeuis did something to them. It's quite possible that they never even existed, and Raziel was just confused into thinking he had his own clan vamps(the least likely, but possible considering Kain's lack of memory in BO2). Maybe he had Kain's problem with siring. Or that his brethren started making clan vamps after he was cast into the abyss. Keep has a point too, though I don't see where they would have thought to aid the Hylden from. Killed off as traitors? I don't think so, as Raziel was never established as a traitor. All in all, I am inclined to think that what ever happened to them, was Kain's doing.....since he seems to be planning a lot of things ahead of time to reach a certain goal.

Discussing all this makes me realize I need to go back in replay SR and BO :lol

KainSyndrome101
27th Jul 2002, 22:26
But it also states in the SR1 manual:

A millennium has passed since Lord Kain set his capital in the ruins of the Pillars of Nosgoth and began his conquest of the world. His first act was to recruit a cadre. Dipping into the underworld, Kain snared six souls and thus birthed his lieutenants, of which I, Raziel was one. We, in turn, prowled the twilight of purgatory building six legions of vampires to pillage Nosgoth.

Kain is about 1,830-2,030 years old. Raziel is about 1,330-1,530 years old. For vampires, that's not much of a difference.

Just because the site states that Raziel is "nearly as old as Kain himself," doesn't mean he has to be right up there in the years with Kain.

blincoln
27th Jul 2002, 22:40
It also says right at the beginning of Blood Omen 2 that the game takes place before Raziel was made.

Umah Bloodomen
27th Jul 2002, 23:35
When I say "immediately" after BO2 I believe that a century would fall into this time frame. Merely for the fact, vampires don't have to rush to get things accomplished because for all we know ithey have an eternity. I am sure a century to an vampire (who is at his prime in life) would feel as if it were passing in a year as opposed to 100.

Secondly, Keep, with all the detail already instilled in these games, mummification would not surpise me. These brethren were revered. They had time to mummify William and give him a nice little sarcophagus, I am positive they had time to mummify, Raziel, Turel, Dumah, Rahab, Zephon and Melchiah. They were heroes - martyrs. Judging from the lack of a "royal entity" around the time they lived, I would assume they fit the position of royality and were revered as such. (And no I am not saying they were royality, the could just be compared to royality).

This game is based on past medieval references and biblical references of the real world. I am sure some of those customs (of death for example) could/would be referenced as well.

I find you to be a bit hypocritical. You tell me this is just a game when I theorize, (basically telling me that the theory was lame and not plausable) but immediately contradict iyour thought of "it is a game" by theorizing on your own. :rolleyes: :confused:

I play the game, and since coming to the forums I have learned to go deeper into the storyline than I did before. I realize that it is a game, but can enjoy it a lot more with all the theories and notions that I have come across. I am one of many creative individuals (much like yourself) who come here and discuss the storyline for hours on end and try to reach the point of total plot dissection. Am I right about my theories? Probably not, but we don't know who is or isn't "totally" right at this point either now do we?

KainSyndrome101
28th Jul 2002, 01:00
Thanks for the good explanations Umah. Yes, mummification does fit very well into the series.

And blincoln, thanks for catching that little tidbit about BO2.

Laughing Storm
28th Jul 2002, 04:27
First off, people form theories and questions when they see a movie or read a book that has a deep story and plot twists. So why should a game be any different, especially when it plays more like a movie or book anyway.

Where in BO2 does it say that, and what does it say? All I got was it takes place several centuries before the 'events' of SR1.

Kain set his capitial in the Pillars, and when you see the intro of BO2, what is he walking through and what place do you see him discussing the coming war with other vampires? It's the Pillars. If his first act was to make Raziel and Co., then they should have been in the game. True that 500 years wouldn't be a difference when you compare those numbers, but it would seem like one when they first come to be vampires. 550 vs 1 would seem like a lot.

warpsavant
28th Jul 2002, 04:35
L.S., you need to visit the Official BO2 site, or play the game.




FOUR HUNDRED YEARS AFTER THE NOBLEMAN KAIN
WAS CURSED TO WALK THE NIGHT AS A VAMPIRE
AND CENTURIES BEFORE KAIN WOULD RULE THE
WASTELAND OF NOSGOTH WITH HIS LIEUTENANT RAZIEL

HIS PATH OF CONQUEST IS STOPPED BY A NEW ENEMY

THE PILLARS OF NOSGOTH LIE IN RUIN
VAMPIRES ROAM THE LAND ONCE AGAIN
AND THE LEGACY OF KAIN CONTINUES

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2002, 04:53
Did you not get your daily dose of biscuits today, Warp? ;) :p

Laughing Storm
28th Jul 2002, 04:54
Right, and you need to clearly read peoples statements.

Again, I heard that and disregarded it cause it is not what Blin said. He said before Raziel was MADE. That intro says no such thing. It says before he RULED WITH Raziel, not before he made him.

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2002, 05:11
What Blinc said and I also said comes from the sources of information such as the BO2 site and the manuals, play guides, you name it.

The BO2 Background story From Ardeth's site:



AS GIVEN IN THE GAME MANUAL

The story of Blood Omen 2 takes place two hundred years after Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen, and several centuries before the events of Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver. The vampire Kain awakens in a strange city with almost no memory of his former self. Another vampire, Umah, has taken him in and revived him to health after a deadly battle that Kain barely remembers. He is weak, and has lost most of his former power. Worse still, his weapon, the Soul Reaver, is missing. Umah begins to fill Kain in on the recent past, and pieces of Kain's shattered memory return.

Also compliment's of Ardeth's site:



AS GIVEN IN THE GAME MANUAL
LORD KAIN AND THE STORY OF NOSGOTH
(as told by Raziel)

Dark Gods
A millennium has passed since Lord Kain set his capital in the ruins of the Pillars of Nosgoth and began his conquest of the world. His first act was to recruit a cadre. Dipping into the underworld, Kain snared six souls and thus birthed his lieutenants of which I, Raziel, was one. We, in turn prowled the twilight of purgatory building six legions of vampires to pillage Nosgoth.

The destruction of the major human Kingdoms was inevitable. Within a hundred years, humanity had been thoroughly domesticated. To be sure, there remained some feral humans scattered across the hinterlands, clinging to their hopeless holy war to rid Nosgoth of 'the vampire scourge'. They were tolerated. They made existence for the fledglings more challenging.


That intro sentence had nothing to do with Raziel being around. It was before his time. His first act following his conquest of the Hylden city was to resurrect the brethren.

Again from Ardeth's site:



Raziel was the first-born of Kain's lieutenants, the second most powerful vampire in Nosgoth during the first thousand years of Kain's empire. He served his master faithfully.


Kains empire started being put together immediately after BO2 (within the first century) He set the base of his empire at the Pillars, resurrected his "children" and thus we come to the opening FMV of SR1. Which occurs at the end of that millenium that is constantly referred to.

Again from Ardeth's site: ESPECIALLY RELEVANT



Roughly a millennium and a half later, Kain's empire stretched across Nosgoth...

Kain ruled a world filled with vampires. He raised six elite Sarafan warriors from their tomb to serve him, leaving their past forgotten. After the human kingdoms had been conquered, these lieutentants created many offspring. The domination of the vampires became complete as the Pillars continued to decay. Kain's throne was at the base of the eternally corrupted Pillar of Balance.



Hope this clears some things up for you and builds on some things from yesterday.

KainSyndrome101
28th Jul 2002, 06:10
Kain set his capital in the Pillars, and when you see the intro of BO2, what is he walking through and what place do you see him discussing the coming war with other vampires? It's the Pillars.

Actually, you only see Kain walk through the Pillars once in the entire game; when he's walking away after he damned the Balance Pillar in the intro. And he never talks about the war with other vampires there. He only said that in the trailer from a long time ago. "Tell them Kain is coming, and I will deliver the war." That's what he said, but it was cut, so it has no use anymore, and therefore cannot be used as a fact.

KainSyndrome101
28th Jul 2002, 06:27
And also, actually, mummification is the only way to explain the way the corpses stayed intact for 500 years. It states in the SR1 manual that "one must steal a soul from the abyss to reanimate the corpse." So, you actually need the physical body to create a vampire the way Kain does.

And plus, the name "Tomb of the Sarafan." When there's a "tomb," aren't there mummies in it?

Laughing Storm
28th Jul 2002, 06:35
Kain:Agreed on the mummy part.

Watch closely to the intro in BO2, it shows him walking away as you said, but it also shows him(at the pillars) and standing around him are Marcus, Fastuas, etc. Then it shows him and Vorador pointing at a map(probably an in game thing).

Umah: I am not disputing when he was made here or the facts that have been presented, I am well aware of them. My 'arguement' is more of a speculation. All I am saying is the story and what is written clash at some points, leaving wayward information. Edios and the games never actually say 'when' Raziel and Co. are made, but they leave enough clues for you to guess.....but sometimes they get warped by other clues and such. Like Janos and the heart ripping thing, but that was cleared up when you pointed out that Kain doesn't make vamps like others do. Then there is the 'Raz is his first Lieutenant' yet he has an army already in BO2, or just prior to it and one would think Lieutenants as well. But I suppose that is explained as Raz being his first in his new army, or some such.

Edit: Ok, so they all have fledglings. My only guess as to where Raz's went is either they were killed or they went into hiding, which seems unlikely form they to stay that way in Kain's realm, as godlike as he claims to have become. I suspect if they decided, for some reason, to help the Hylden, that Kain would have stopped them. But again, where would the thought of the Hylden come from and why would they want to.

KainSyndrome101
28th Jul 2002, 06:56
I've got you now.

SR1 manual: A millennium has past since Lord Kain set his capital in the ruins of the Pillars of Nosgoth and began his conquest of the world.

It means that Kain did not create his throne room from the Pillars themselves until after he raised the lieutenants, which was 500 years after the intro to BO2. And, the room in the intro where Magnus, Vorador etc. are with Kain doesn't look like the Pillars area. The columns behind Kain are just regular buttresses, nothing more. It looked a lot like the room where you fight Marcus.

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2002, 07:05
Originally posted by Laughing Storm
Then there is the 'Raz is his first Lieutenant' yet he has an army already in BO2, or just prior to it and one would think Lieutenants as well. But I suppose that is explained as Raz being his first in his new army, or some such.

You really should move away from the Raziel being Kain's first lieutenant at every point of his rise to power. LOL. That is understood. Kain created his first army after the events of BO1. Magus lead that army as Kain's general. Generals are indeed above lieutenants. Kain fell. Magnus would have assumed control of the army, but was ultimately defeated and taken as a POW. Kain wakes up, has no army, goes through the events of BO2 and sets himself up for another army. BO2 is pre SR1. With no army, Kain has no empire. It is simply sitting there waiting for him to assume the role of emperor. It is absolutely clear (no speculation) that the empire of SR1 is a "new army' with new commanding officers in that army. (There is no speculation here). There is no trace of the vampires of the original army and vampires are no longer "born" at the time of SR1.

This plot hole is far from a speculation. It is easily explained and there is plenty of evidence to support it. Is it carved in stone, no. But I will lose respect for the entire LoK Franchise if they decide to focus on the new empire being his only successful attempt at a conquest of Nosgoth. (Especially after bringing it up that it wasn't in BO2). Prior to BO2 I would not have doubted your speculation. But BO2 filled in this hole and I am satisfied with how it was accomplished.

There are plenty of bigger "plot holes" around with loads of speculation and a huge lack of evidence and inconsistancy.

Star Wars episodes 4, 5, and 6, had loads of speculation. Now Lucas is filling in the holes. The holes of LoK are being filled in as the series progresses. I don't think they are going to dwell on the empire parts because it has already been divulged. The next army/empire related hole we will see focused on is the Ancient vs. Hylden.

Now I just went and watched the opening FMV to BO2. Kain walks away from the Pillars as they topple. It does not show him at the Pillars with Marcus and Faustus and co. They are in the church. You can see the pews and everything. Then it shows Vorador showing the map to Kain to plan their milltary assault on the Sarafan Stronghold and the Sarafan Lord.


Kain - thanks for pointing out the manual reference. It better supports the mummy theory. :)

EDIT: I need to type a bit faster tonight. At least there are two eyewitness accounts of the Pillars in the FMV :p

EDIT 2 Added the ommitted words to my Magnus would've assumed control of Kain's army statement. :)

EDIT 3 Will try not to confuse Magnus with Magus again tonight. **repeats*** Magus is NOT the same as Magnus... :p

Laughing Storm
28th Jul 2002, 07:18
Heh, yes regular pillars they are. Bad memory on my part. ;)

Umah: First, Magnus was taken captive BEFORE Kain lost his war, a day before. He never lead the army and all that. They army fell when Kain fell. Remember, Magnus states he stole out the night before to take care of the S. Lord on his own, to please his master, Kain. Who had questioned him on why he had dissapeared. Then he explains from there.
Second, don't dig your nails into me too fast, please, remember my original speculation was based on my ingorance of Kain's siring abilities. Meriting that, my argumement had plenty of ground to work on.

Edit: Forgot to touch on the lieutenant thing. :lol True, I use it a lot(as well as other points).....but then I am trying to defend myself. I only threw it in that time to add to examples, not actually using it as a point.

So what happens to Vorador in that time frame? Since he apparently didn't die in BO. Is that the 'bigger' plot hole? :lol

Edit: Fixed a misread response

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2002, 07:23
Originally posted by Laughing Storm
Heh, yes regular pillars they are. Bad memory on my part. ;)

So Kain, you are saying Umah is wrong in assuming Kain did all of this 100 years after, but rather 500 years? I am inclined to think its closer to 100 then it is to 500.

Umah: First, Magnus was taken captive BEFORE Kain lost his war, a day before. He never lead the army and all that. They army fell when Kain fell. Remember, Magnus states he stole out the night before to take care of the S. Lord on his own, to please his master, Kain. Who had questioned him on why he had dissapeared. Then he explains from there.
Second, don't dig your nails into me too fast, please, remember my original speculation was based on my ingorance of Kain's siring abilities. Meriting that, my argumement had plenty of ground to work on.


Trust me, I am far from digging my nails into you. ;) Forgive my hastiness here, but your recent speculation has made me speculate your familiarity with these games as a whole. Not just one on one. :p

That part of my speech should have read:

"Magnus would have assumed control of the army, but was ultimately defeated...etc."

This was when I went to go check out the opening FMV to disprove your Pillar statement and I had lost track of where I was going. I apologize and will edit it accordingly. :)

Is it me or is it getting hot in here tonight? :p ;)

EDIT Had to adjust my color. :p

EDIT 2 Changed Magus to Magnus LoL.

Laughing Storm
28th Jul 2002, 07:37
Yes, I question myself as well. :lol I feel rather silly sometimes during this debate, oh well. Bare in mind, I have only played each game once, and that was directly after they came out. I've played many games inbetween and have had school and other things weighing on my mind, so forgive me if I tend to 'forget' a few parts of the storyline. I hope I don't come off as someone who has hardly even played any of the series. I don't mind being wrong, it helps me fix my facts and understand the story better. ;)

Oh, I don't think its getting hot in here in the 'heated' up sence, unless you meant peoples being hot physically. Kidding :lol No, I don't take things to offense too fast. I am trying to avoid that if I can.

BTW, Umah, it's Magnus, not Magus. ;)

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2002, 07:43
Originally posted by Laughing Storm
Yes, I question myself as well. :lol I feel rather silly sometimes during this debate, oh well. Bare in mind, I have only played each game once, and that was directly after they came out. I've played many games inbetween and have had school and other things weighing on my mind, so forgive me if I tend to 'forget' a few parts of the storyline. I hope I don't come off as someone who has hardly even played any of the series. I don't mind being wrong, it helps me fix my facts and understand the story better. ;)

Oh, I don't think its getting hot in here in the 'heated' up sence, unless you meant peoples being hot physically. Kidding :lol No, I don't take things to offense too fast. I am trying to avoid that if I can.

BTW, Umah, it's Magnus, not Magus. ;)

Ha! Can you tell I've been playing a lot of Chrono Trigger & Chrono Cross lately? LOL. I'll change that. **laughs**

I understand where you're coming from about playing the games only once and whatnot. It's all good. We don't look down on you for that at all. (We all started in the exact same spot). You came off as a seasoned player who knew this and knew that, which is why we "attacked the debate" head on. ;) You are a very welcome entity in these forums and I enjoy debating with you immensely. Especially at "my time of the day/night". ;)

I bet you didn't think the story was this big did you? :p

warpsavant
28th Jul 2002, 07:43
Then play the games again.

Laughing Storm
28th Jul 2002, 07:51
I plan on it warp, but not right away. I have a few games that need beating.

Umah: Thanks ;)
Yes, I was gonna say, "He's not Magus from CT" I need to replay those games again too, just to get the different endings. I am currently playing Warcraft III though, and for some reason I have an urge to replay Star Ocean: 2nd Story, so I just put that in to play too. Here's an off topic, sorta, question. What, if any, are some other good boards to visit?

Oh, and I knew the story was this big. One of the reasons LoK is one of my favorite series(games) to play now. It's very indepth and has good twists, its like reading a good series of books.

KainSyndrome101
28th Jul 2002, 08:12
So Kain, you are saying Umah is wrong in assuming Kain did all this after 100 years, but rather 500 years? I am inclined to think its closer to 100 then it is to 500.

I said it was 500 years after the INTRO to BO2, which is 100 years after the actual events of BO2. I'm agreeing with Umah.

keepittrue
28th Jul 2002, 10:24
Originally posted by KainSyndrome101
I'm gonna' say it one more time: The Sarafan Brethren were resurrected by Kain roughly a century later. That's what it says in the SR2 timeline in the extras.

Why would he wait such a long time to raise them? Perhaps he needed a little help with destroying the Sarafan after BO2. So after about 100 years, he raises the lieutenants, and they destroy the Sarafan for good.

So you are saying all the brothers are/were the same age then??
I can understand them being raised after BO2 but I dont think they were ALL raised at the SAME time.

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2002, 10:33
Keep, I originally posted this (Compliments of Ardeth's site)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roughly a millennium and a half later, Kain's empire stretched across Nosgoth...

Kain ruled a world filled with vampires. He raised six elite Sarafan warriors from their tomb to serve him, leaving their past forgotten. After the human kingdoms had been conquered, these lieutentants created many offspring. The domination of the vampires became complete as the Pillars continued to decay. Kain's throne was at the base of the eternally corrupted Pillar of Balance.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think Kain would make multiple return trips to the Tomb just to resurrect the bretheren when he was there and could do it then. I also think he did it at the same time because of the different amount of his soul breathed into each one. It isn't clear on if he can regenerate his soul, but lets say he could after a rest. If he resurrected them at different times, then I would think the bretheren wouldn't be as devolved or weaker than it's predecessor. I would think they would be stronger and more humanoid looking (like Raziel but not necessarily with the wings).
Now we know that Kain lost a lot of strength when he resurrected the bretheren. Implying (if he could regenerate his soul after a rest, hypothetically) then he was weakening with every breath thus each lieutenant was weaker with the less soul they received.

Power reaver
28th Jul 2002, 15:15
OK I havent taken the time to read the last few posts but I understand you are having trouble putting the correct events in the correct ages , so here we go :

Time line begins :

500 yrs before BO - The Janos / Raz event takes place . Human Raz rips out Janoses heart , SR Raz kicks human Razes butt . - SR2

50 yrs before BO - Willy and Kain battle , willys SR breaks - BO

30 yrs before BO - Raz arrives from SR era , fixes the Reaver etc - SR2

BO era - All the events of Blood Omen take place . Kain makes his decision , thus damning Nosgoth to its corruption .
Note : Since Kain uses the Heart of Darkness rather frequently in the game , we can be sure that Janos was not resurrected till after BO (correct me if Iam wrong) although it is possible that he is resurrected and then killed again but thats highly doubtful

200 yrs after BO - Vorador makes Vampires which Kain uses in his army and together they battle the SL , they are defeated and Kain is almost killed .


400 yrs after BO/BO2 era - Kain wakes up , overthrows SL and emerges victorious

100 yrs after BO2 - Kain finds a way to create Vampires and creates Raziel , Turel , Dumah , Rahab , Zephon and Melchiah and gives them a little part of his soul/gift in the respective propotions .

Note : A mellenium has past since SR Raz killed Human Raz , this millenium word is used by Raz in a dailog thus we can be sure that Raz is created a 100 yrs after BO2 or 1000 yrs after Janos/Raz incident .

Till 1000 yrs : Raz is loyal to Kain , he evolves (since we can see the claws , the feet in SR intro) , Kain probably teaches Raz and Co to make Vamps like he(kain) did and all of them get busy making their clans and together they take over Nosgoth .

1000 yrs later : Raz gets wings and is cast into the Abyss

After an eternity (the no. of yrs that pass when Raz is boiling in the Abyss is uncertain although its preety safe to say that it can range from a mere 500 yrs to a 1000 yrs , I assume 1000 is the max it can be) : Raz awakens as the soul stealing material and spectral shifting entity , Raz gets the SR , kills all his bros and follows kain into the chronoplast time portal .

End of the Timeline

A note on Kain and Razes ages : Although it may sound stupid but Raz is technically older than kain . Heres how :

We assume that both their humans forms died at the age of 30 .

Raz : 30 yrs of Human age
1000 yrs of dormancy in the Tomb
1000 yrs of service to kain
1000 yrs of boiling (max remember)
Max age = 3030 yrs

Kain : 30 yrs of Human Age
400 yrs from BO to BO2
100 yrs after BO2
1000 yrs after creation of Raz
1000 yrs of waiting till Raz reawakened
Max age = 2530 yrs

Thus 3030
- 2530
= 0500 yrs

Conclution Raz is more or less 500 yrs older than kain .

Hope this clears up a lot for you .

KainSyndrome101
28th Jul 2002, 16:11
With Raziel, I meant actual years of living. I don't think he burned in there for an entire millennium. My guess is probably about 300-500 years.

You are right about Kain being about 500 years older than Raziel though.

Power reaver
29th Jul 2002, 14:39
Raziel says an eternity in the intro and I think about 1000 yrs is the max it can be , so the max age I can sum up for Raz is 3030 . (Raz seriously needs to die and take a breather dont you think ? :p )

KainSyndrome101
29th Jul 2002, 16:47
But in the SR2 timeline, it says "centuries later." If it was a millennium, I think they would put something that stated it was around 1,000 years.

Azrael
30th Jul 2002, 01:21
I don't know if this counts, but in the Uncut version of SR1 the Elder says to him that he was a millenium "burning" in the Abyss...

warpsavant
30th Jul 2002, 05:34
he says a millenium or a moment? we who stand outside the rim of time dwell not in past or future ages, there is only the now. Its more like philosophy than an answer to Raziels question, wich was a V.O. anyway.

Power reaver
30th Jul 2002, 14:01
Listen to what Iam saying people :

A mellenium is a max to a few centurys - correct

thus the max time Raz can be burning in the Abyss is a mellenium - correct

Thus what Iam saying is 3030 is the "max" Razes age can be , Iam not saying that that is the exact age .

:cool:

Edit : Whoa , a whoopin idea just hit my mind .

How long do you think a yr lasts in Nosgoth . Is it a 100 days , 200 days , 365 , or a 1000 ?

From what we know , Razes age could turn out to be 3 Nosgoth months or 3030000000 Nosgoth yrs (The BO sun set and rose quite fast)

KainSyndrome101
30th Jul 2002, 16:02
That's a good point you have there. But I think the game is based on human years. It would just be better to understand.

Laughing Storm
30th Jul 2002, 17:44
Actually, a millennium is exactly 1000 years. Its the code word for it, just like a century means 100, and a decade means 10 years.

KainSyndrome101
30th Jul 2002, 20:02
Yeah, I know that.

warpsavant
30th Jul 2002, 20:25
Whats it matter how old anybody is?


After BO2 is over, ROUGHLY a CENTURY passes and Kain sets the Ruined Pillars as the Seat of his empire, NEXT he raises his 6 Lts.

A MILLENIUM passes, and Raziel evolves and is thrown into the Abyss.


CENTURIES LATER Raziel returns!

This is how it is. You can argue with me, but you are arguing a losing battle....

Power reaver
31st Jul 2002, 13:31
You sound like one of those guys that rant :

Who cares what happens to Kain , who cares what happens to that blue butted freak , Who cares what happens to Nosgoth , its just a game .

You know better then that Warp , I shouldent need to explain to you that "the discussion board is for discussion for things we want to discuss , and If you dont like the topic of a thread , dont reply to it" , but then again I just did .

BTW yeah I guess that its based on earth yrs , but its an interesting point aint it .