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Apache
26th Jul 2002, 04:40
I finally played it..after a little horsing around in UT..but man this game ROCKS...everyone grab a copy of UT and go at it..I only have 1 minor comment..I don't care for the time limit aspect of it. You should be able to play end the objectives are met or all of either group has been removed X number of times.
Gonna install it on KidGarrett's PC so we can practice playing Thieves..Then you'll wipe the board with all of you..*insert evil laugh here*:D :p

LeatherMan
26th Jul 2002, 05:14
I think you will appreciate the time limit when you play guard some. It forces the thieves to hurry along, instead of lurking for extended periods of time, thus forcing mistakes and opportunities for guards to get in on some action. It can be quite boring when the thief is never seen (am I right Vesper and Huntress?:D).

I agree about the objectives. I think the thieves should have to complete the objectives within the time limit even if all guards have been KO'd. Maybe in a future patch ...

Meet me at my place Friday night and we'll see who wipes! :p

theBlackman
26th Jul 2002, 05:35
I don't know about the rest of the missions, but only the Aqua one has a time limit, I think. The second one doesn't and I have not looked at the others yet.

If they all have a limit of time I would have to generally agree with Apache. Forcing the game is not a bad idea, but a constant time pressure element would reduce my enjoyment. Not that you should take forever to play a mission. But without a true brief, as a real pro thief would have undertaken, time to explore and set the parameters would be a little more realistic.

A pro would not just rush into a building, site or whatever. A cautious painstaking approach would be more like it.

The idea is to STEAL and ESCAPE not run in and DIE.

Squid
26th Jul 2002, 09:05
Yea, but if you don't have a time limit, then the thieves can hide in some inaccessible corner until all the guards get bored and quit. Or until they get kicked off the server for various reasons. (Some of the servers are not as stable as I'd wish.) The time pressure on the theives keeps the game from becoming a stalemate. Not to mention moves the game along, for those who have been taken out already.

And all the missions have time limits. They don't come into play often, but they're there.

Squid

Muzman
26th Jul 2002, 11:27
I know you're all talking about online play and are aware that you can turn time limits off when playing solo, right? :D Just checking.

LeatherMan
26th Jul 2002, 12:02
Once the thieves have learned the maps (have played them 5+ times each) they don't need to take their time and explore or watch patrols. Also, 2 or more thieves going in together will give you more time to work on one area because you alone don't have to get all objectives (they are pooled). I have seen online games that only took 5 minutes or less because the thieves were experienced and the guards weren't.

PS, all of the maps on my server have 30 minute time limits.

theBlackman
26th Jul 2002, 16:39
Originally posted by LeatherMan
Once the thieves have learned the maps (have played them 5+ times each) they don't need to take their time and explore or watch patrols. Also, 2 or more thieves going in together will give you more time to work on one area because you alone don't have to get all objectives (they are pooled). I have seen online games that only took 5 minutes or less because the thieves were experienced and the guards weren't.

PS, all of the maps on my server have 30 minute time limits.

OK. A "Gang" effort would smooth out the Time problem. I wasn't thinking in the correct terms. As a team then the time factor (with appropriate commo between thieves) would not be as great.

Not being a multi-player of anything, by choice, I was not thinking correctly.

And the ability to cancel the time for solo play and experimentation changes that reservation also.

Thanks all for the adjustment of mental outlook. :D :D

Huntress
26th Jul 2002, 20:24
since I'm so rotten at this game..it will be of great value to have some comrades :) <i>Yea LM..you sneaky thief...didn't know where you were at all that last game :(</i> However, there is a limit to the number of players that can join in..and the more players the less respawns you have to use...The only way to tell accurately how many are currently playing is when you put LM's server in your fav's (temporarily as it's not dedicated yet) or any other server if you'd want to join up with sometime..as the other tabs are misleading to the number of players in game. I'm not sure if this is a glich in my installation but I can only join from one of the other two tabs...Thievery or Populated Thievery...for some reason can't click server name in fav's and right click to select "Play on this server" :( Won't let me?

So welcome aboard you Thieves and see you tonight :) I'll be joining up around 6ish I guess (my time PDST) or as soon as I can check when he's up and running :) Ta and Good Hunting!

LeatherMan
26th Jul 2002, 22:44
Originally posted by Huntress
I'm not sure if this is a glich in my installation but I can only join from one of the other two tabs...Thievery or Populated Thievery...for some reason can't click server name in fav's and right click to select "Play on this server" :( Won't let me?
There is a known glitch in connecting from Favorites and I'm not sure if the next patch will fix it or not. For now, adding my server to your Favs will do no good.

The server should be able to handle 10 players based on my DSL bandwidth, so hopefully all who wish to join will be able to. If the server rejects your connection, it is probably full, not that I am blocking you. Try again later.

I will be playing Guard most of the games tonight, so everyone new to the game will hopefully be able to play Thief, but remember to be considerate of other players and allow them the chance to be a Thief also (don't spam the Thief button at the beginning!). We all must guard sometimes on my server since Co-Op mode isn't working for me.

theBlackman
26th Jul 2002, 22:54
Hey Dbl T,

I will try to join, but will probably be a rat in the background for a visit or two. :D

If this loads the server, I'll dropout between games to give all a chance.

Sneak
27th Jul 2002, 00:53
I love it as well. And if any of you guys are playing it online, I wanna give it a try. Has to be a kick. :)

On the time limits, in single player mode you can raise the time limit if you want to explore or play it stealthy. I can't remember where it was set but I did it in a few missions.

But for Online Multiplayer, yaa, too much time and being a Guard might get boring. Hard to say. Have to hunt em down I guess.

I have the Beta Version, is there a final one?

Am gonna see if I can log onto a game online. :D

Sneak
27th Jul 2002, 01:19
Leatherman,
Whats the password for your server? Am trying to join in the game.

Muzman
27th Jul 2002, 02:45
In case anyone is still confused; If you want objectives only solo play (for practice, exploration, making it more like Thief, what-have-you), in the rules section you tick 'override map time settings' (I think that's what it's called) and set the round time limit to zero
This will give you infinite time and the round will not end until all thief objectives are complete or all thief lives are lost (and maybe when all guards are out too, not sure).

LeatherMan
27th Jul 2002, 05:23
Originally posted by Sneak
But for Online Multiplayer, yaa, too much time and being a Guard might get boring. Hard to say. Have to hunt em down I guess.

I have the Beta Version, is there a final one?
I was getting a little bored being a guard, waiting for the thieves to escape the prison. The 30 minute time limit saved me! Otherwise, I enjoyed being a guard all night (snuffed a few thieves I did :D), and I hope all had fun.

Beta is all that is out now.

Sneak
27th Jul 2002, 06:06
I had some Big Fun in there. Is different than Thief as we know it but a lot of fun. Gonna have to get some practice in. Playing against humans makes the difference. I keep forgetting about the time trying to be stealthy, have to move a bit faster unless there are a buncha Thieves playing.

Ahem, I was gonna knock Huntress out. In fact had decided to hunt her down and then she had to go. It's comin Huntress, it's comin! Buy a Helmet! HA! :D

Was fun guys, lets do it again. :)

Squid
27th Jul 2002, 07:03
If I'm aware the game is going to be played, and I'm online, I'll be in your server, Leather. And we now have a new challenge for Sneak.... ghosting Thievery! :D Can you do it with human opponents? Patrols are no longer static... not to mention it's a true thinking opponent!

Squid

Apache
27th Jul 2002, 16:08
I wish i could have been there, but i have to work friday nights unt6il we get more peopled hired. souned like fun..catch ya next time.

Sneak
27th Jul 2002, 16:17
Well Squid,
Ghosting Thievery UT would be a Challenge. But umm, might have to up the time limits to a stratospheric amount. Ha! Then the Human Guards would get bored and fall asleep and Ghosting would be easy. ;) Maybe! I played that way as much as I could in Single Player, still not easy.

The time is what mostly got me last night and when I pushed it, well, Ha, Human Guards ain't dumb and they can go anywhere you can go. Tunnels, vents, anywhere! Tag Arrows, Paralysis Arrows, the Bane of the Modern Thief. Gonna buy some Crack Arrows this time. Revenge! And those Flares sure have a use. Which I could pick pocket them.

Playing a Guard was none to easy either. Lots of waiting and hunting around. I finally found the Thieves about 1 minute before the time ran out in one mission. I was flashbombed, what a white screen. Kept moving and almost made it too the clock, but I hit the ground just as the timer ran out.

Am gonna see if anyone is in there now. 11:10 CST Saturday :D

theBlackman
27th Jul 2002, 16:45
Much fun. the guards do have a major advantage, in that they do not need to be sneaky.

As a new guard, even if you have never played, you can scope the entire map out with impunity, unless you run face to face with a thief.

A poor thief, and most of us remained POOR last night, :D really is up against the time element.

Sneak, as a first player, was most impressive. A pleasure to watch a master at work.

I managed a few tries inbetween taking care of the wife, and a little more solo work to learn the maps (although I think that reduces the fun a little) and I might live a little longer.

Sneak
27th Jul 2002, 19:11
Thanks TheBlackMan! :)

And have you noticed that Human Guards, including myself, are wound up like a spring and paranoid. They do not stand still, turning, moving, looking behind them. Hard to Blackjack at times.

I did see Huntress backed into a corner once not moving. She was in a well lit place though and pretty safe, sort of. I was above and had a arrow all nocked up for her, but instead I made a small crater. Fell off the ledge! HAHA! ;)

And what name were you using Blackman? I did notice that in the last mission I played there were a lot of Rats underfoot! ;)

What a riot. Open the server dagnabit! :D

theBlackman
27th Jul 2002, 19:45
Sneak,

Dhu Glas that is Gaelic for Black (Dhu) Man (Glas) for Douglas, or Donel Dhu (Donald the Black IE EVIL)

Dhu means Secretive, mysterious, Black (as in evil or black-hearted) Hidden, unknown, etc. depending on usage. As an example the small dirk hidden in a Scotsman's boottop is a Skean (knive-dagger) Dhu or hidden knife= Skean Dhu. :D

I ID'd myself just before you arrived. I was watching you over the bar area in the rafters, and again when you came across the grounds by the river near the trees. :D

As far as the guards being paranoid, that in RL is the way a security force should truely be.

It is a slight disadvantage to be a Thief in this game. In RL the guards would do thier thing and not be so active unless and until an intruder was detected.

With this setup the guards are not really true to life. They already know an intruder is present.

I would like the game modified to a situation where the guards were limited to a certain movement factor until an alert was sounded, or a body discovered, or an object was noted as missing.

In other words, the guards would not be able to be in complete independent S&D (Search and Destroy) mode until one of them sees or confronts an intruder.

The way it is now. It's "OK guys. There are thieves here search them out." Not "Be alert and man your posts. If you see something sound the alert."

With the "I know you are there" situation the odds are with the guards in nearly every instance.

Huntress
27th Jul 2002, 20:49
Been much discussion about Guards having more of an edge over Thieves in this game...but....and I say but...they've tried to balance this by giving each certain advantages over the other...i.e...invis when in shadows for the thieves...and although a Guard can use a flare to try and uncover your presence...they have a limited amount of time before burn out...he/she have only a few on hand before needing to find the supply chest to get a few more...then start from scratch as to were to search now...seeing as how ppl move around...and here's a big one...he has to drop his flare first before he can trigger the key to use a weapon...(and while I'm searching for the right weapon to pull up (hopefully a tag or paralize) the Thief in the meantime is making tracks unless I can see him enough first to use paralize and then I've pretty much got his little hooded self :D So bottom line is...yes it's tough for both sides to play their parts...but learning the maps and where you need to go to complete objectives is important to be successful or you'll be running all over not knowing where to go and time will run out...however, I do believe, that when that map/game comes around again...it will only show those objectives that weren't completed the first time and then you would need to do those (correct me LM if I'm misunderstanding this part...but that's what I seem to have observed in watching several different games/servers as well as with you?). Ta and Good Hunting!

LeatherMan
27th Jul 2002, 21:35
Originally posted by theBlackman
In other words, the guards would not be able to be in complete independent S&D (Search and Destroy) mode until one of them sees or confronts an intruder.

The way it is now. It's "OK guys. There are thieves here search them out." Not "Be alert and man your posts. If you see something sound the alert."

With the "I know you are there" situation the odds are with the guards in nearly every instance.

I agree about the human guards on a "Search and Destroy" mission, but it's not likely that I or anyone else would enjoy the waiting game. As it is, guards run around placing traps, moving AI to patrol or guard different areas, as well as hunting thieves that they shouldn't know are there.

I like to think of it as the guards have gotten a tip that a thief/thieves will be coming tonight, and the humans are keeping the tip to themselves to be the hero/s (explains why the AI aren't searching). There really isn't any other way to do the guards.

As far as "guards have the advantage" or "thieves have the advantage" arguments, I disagree. Some maps tend to favor one team or the other, but overall the game is well balanced IMO.


I do believe, that when that map/game comes around again...it will only show those objectives that weren't completed the first time and then you would need to do those No, each time a map comes around in the rotation it is started anew. Some players tend to finish the map quicker than others, which might explain why you felt that way. I have seen a map finished in only a couple of minutes, but it was started from the beginning.


What a riot. Open the server dagnabit! :D Okay, okay. It will be open soon (6pm EST), but I may not be playing for a while. Everyone have fun! :)

theBlackman
27th Jul 2002, 21:45
Originally posted by LeatherMan


I agree about the human guards on a "Search and Destroy" mission, but it's not likely that I or anyone else would enjoy the waiting game. As it is, guards run around placing traps, moving AI to patrol or guard different areas, as well as hunting thieves that they shouldn't know are there.

I like to think of it as the guards have gotten a tip that a thief/thieves will be coming tonight, and the humans are keeping the tip to themselves to be the hero/s (explains why the AI aren't searching). There really isn't any other way to do the guards.

As far as "guards have the advantage" or "thieves have the advantage" arguments, I disagree. Some maps tend to favor one team or the other, but overall the game is well balanced IMO.

No, each time a map comes around in the rotation it is started anew. Some players tend to finish the map quicker than others, which might explain why you felt that way. I have seen a map finished in only a couple of minutes, but it was started from the beginning.

Okay, okay. It will be open soon (6pm EST), but I may not be playing for a while. Everyone have fun! :)

I don't mean to sound like a whiner. I really think the mod is fantastic. It is a lot of fun, sweat, blood, and tears, but a real pleasure.

I was merely offering an observation. In the overall I realize that boredom is a major factor, but to be blunt :D "That is what Guard Duty is" having spent many hours so doing. :D :D

Apache
28th Jul 2002, 04:53
Ok, Im tried again this eveing for a couple of games. First one I had no sound as a thief..tends to make it very hard to hear footsteps..but I managed..
Next I was a guard and I still ended up playing like a thief. Going from rooftop to rooftop. Going to the places I would go if I were the Thief playing. Puts a whole new spin on guards I think..before you could just jump in water or climb something and you were safe..but now the Gaurds follow you everywhere basically. To me this makes it more realistic..I await for my next evening off to play again. But you know..This is really cutting into my DromEd time..:D

theBlackman
28th Jul 2002, 05:07
Originally posted by Apache
Ok, Im tried again this eveing for a couple of games. First one I had no sound as a thief..tends to make it very hard to hear footsteps..but I managed..
Next I was a guard and I still ended up playing like a thief. Going from rooftop to rooftop. Going to the places I would go if I were the Thief playing. Puts a whole new spin on guards I think..before you could just jump in water or climb something and you were safe..but now the Gaurds follow you everywhere basically. To me this makes it more realistic..I await for my next evening off to play again. But you know..This is really cutting into my DromEd time..:D

Like that is a real complaint. :D :D

Fun game is it not. :p

Sneak
28th Jul 2002, 06:00
Yes, it is fun. Wish there were more in there tonight. Is fun with a bunch of people.

Lots for me to figure out still. I do OK when I move slow like when playing Thief. But I run into the time thing. When I move to fast, I get Clobbered. There's a balance in there somewhere. :D

Catch ya on the next one Apache, and Leatherman, Salvage, TheBlackMan, who else was in there. Oh...Squeeky. Squeeky clawed me to death, so I clawed him back HA! :)

Vesper
28th Jul 2002, 08:01
Sorry I missed the fun tonight :( Would loved to have had a rat fight with Squeeky :) and others, how appropriate! ......Plus I'm so bad at this game yet about the only thing I'm good at is being a rat..... er, that is as long as I don't jump down that chimeny in Gerome anymore.

I just finally got my new printer working. The supposed easy out of the box and have her up in running in a half hour or less just took me 6+hrs and one Ibuprofen to get it hooked up and working right.

I've been attempting to make some maps of the maps of Thievery and now with new printer and getting the scanner to work again, maybe I can finish a few of them, altho they are taking more time then I thought they would. I'm pretty rusty using my PSP program and it's been slow. By the time I get them done to share, all you taffers will know the layout by then just from running around. :p Have got rough drafts for 5 of them so far.

Maybe I can find time to play tomorrow with ya all.

Vesper