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Darakari
24th Jul 2002, 20:34
THE FIRST BATTLE:
Vorador defeats the HUMAN Malek. This is an epic battle that is a keystone in the legends of Nosgoth. Nothing should ever be changed in this first battle. This is the main reason why HUMAN Malek is damned by Mortanius and becomes the WRAITH Malek fused to his suit of armor.

THE SECOND BATTLE:
Vorador and WRAITH Malek fight for the SECOND time, and WRAITH Malek is mysteriously killed, but we never see HOW this is done. Kain returns to the area of the conflict and finds WRAITH Malek's now-lifeless helmet.

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Some dim-witted individuals jumped into the conversation and ignorantly demanded that the first battle between Vorador and Malek should not be changed so that Raziel kills Malek.
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These individuals missed the entire point of the conversation. Everyone agrees that the FIRST battle is a pivotal part of the Nosgoth storyline.

The entire point of the conversation is to determine exactly ***HOW*** Vorador manages to kill the WRAITH Malek in their SECOND BATTLE. The point was brought up that maybe Vorador manages to weaken or stun Malek long enough for the Wraith Raziel to reave the soul of the WRAITH Malek. Since BO1 never shows us HOW Vorador manages to kill WRAITH Malek, this is entirely possible. This explanation does NOT alter history in any way. Just because we did not SEE something, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

For those dim-witted individuals claiming that altering the FIRSt battle was blasphemy, no one ever mentioned altering the FIRST battle. We were trying to come up for an EXPLANATION on HOW Vorador manages to kill WRAITH Malek in the SECOND battle. Since Malek is now a wraith or spirit fused to a suit of armor, Vorador as a vampire does not have any natural abilities that would allow him to kill a spirit fused to a suit of armor. So if you cannot offer an explanation on how a vampire manages to kill a spirit, then you do not have anything useful to contribute to the discussion.

One possible explanation is that time-traveling WRAITH Raziel helps Vorador by reaving Wraith Malek's spirit. THIS DOES NOT ALTER tHE STORYLINE IN ANY WAY. Kain did not see HOW Vorador killed Malek, so he would have told everone that Vorador killed Malek and would not even have known that Wraith Raziel even existed.

Another possible explanation is that maybe Vorador also had some of the SPELLS that Kain uses in LOK: Blood Omen. One of the spells that the vampire Kain uses in BO1 is the SPIRIT WRACK spell. Using this spell, Kain can pull a spirit out of its body, thereby killing the enemy. If Vorador had the Spirit Wrack spell, then he could have used it to pull Wraith Malek's spirit out of the suit of armor, thereby finally killing Malek's soul.

If you want to misinterpret this discussion and argue about something entirely off-topic, then please shut up and go somewhere else. There are no other means that we know of that a vampire can kill a spirit. If you can think of one, then please submit your idea.

If you can think of another way that would allow VAMPIRE Vorador to kill WRAITH Malek, then please submit your ideas here.

keepittrue
24th Jul 2002, 20:47
First off I dont think you have the right to tell people to shut up or that they cant post theyre opinion on how the whole thing works in theyre eyes.

Second you have to look at how V killed Malek before Raziel was even thought of. Remember SK is what made BO1 not CD, Raziel at the time was not even thought of. What I believe since Malek was damned to his armor, I think V just seperated Maleks helmet from the rest of his body thus killing him.

chinese-soul-eater
24th Jul 2002, 20:48
well then you are a dimwit yaself cause we know what you meant by raziel sucking maleks soul in the SECOND BATTLE

but WE dont want raziel involved in that battle at all

FIRST OR SECOND we dont want raziel involved in that battle

so try understanding before you call names

chinese-soul-eater
24th Jul 2002, 20:51
when i say dimwit i meant darakari not you keepittru
darakari-dimwit

warpsavant
24th Jul 2002, 20:54
They could use Raziel in that scenario and have him suck up armor Malek, but what's the point? Why?

To give a better explantion of how a Wolf killed the Tin Man??


Malek's Helmet
"I found Malek’s helmet amongst the scattered remnants of his armor, whole and intact. Vorador had finally laid his old adversary to rest."

Sounds like Malek fell apart, and couldn't get back up. However, I don't think it matters! Like you said, it doesnt change anything, so whats the point?

Azuriel
24th Jul 2002, 21:40
I, for a change, won`t comment on how nice everyone is here.


i just post an idea how Vorador could have done the 2nd battle.

maybe Vor did his utmost best to decapitate the fallen Paladin. then, seperate the head long enough from the rest, and the soul cannot heal, and thus dies.


just an idea.

Anubis_Orr
24th Jul 2002, 23:01
Well it's always seemed to me that Malek's armor works like a container, it keeps his soul on the mortal plane because it is bound to an inorganic object and when Vorador separated the head of the armor from the body then Malek's soul was released and went wherever souls go.

Personally I don't care how Malek dies as long as he does.

darien_specter
24th Jul 2002, 23:22
The Spirit Wrack is a good idea. But Raziel can't have been involved, and again here's why:

Malek dies in BO. We know this. We last saw Vorador fighting him; Kain assumes Vorador killed him. The two Soul Reaver games chronicle the ENTIRE life of Raziel as a devourer of souls thus far. That is, we know everything that happened to him and everything he did from the moment he woke up in Squiddy's cave. Now, according to history before it was altered by Kain, Raziel DIED there in the chapel, utterly absorbed into the Reaver blade. Which means that he could not have done anything ever again after that (except scream a lot ;)). Which means that he did not kill Malek. But Malek died anyway. So, logically, Raziel cannot have had a hand in Malek's ultimate death.

Anubis_Orr
24th Jul 2002, 23:28
Excellent reasoning, but now that the timeline has changed Raziel could have a hand in it :) Wouldn't change anything so I don't think they bother with it, but hey who knows.

darien_specter
24th Jul 2002, 23:38
He could but I doubt it, because I don't think big V needs any help... :D On the other hand, you're quite right, the continued existence of Raziel changed history in a huge way. We don't even know how those years happened now... and as I recall that's part of the speculation around BO2...

Anubis_Orr
25th Jul 2002, 00:37
Unfortunately I don't know all that much about BO2, haven't had a chance to buy/play it, basically just know what I've seen on this forum and some audio clips I've heard.....

Actually now that Raziel and Kain are both in that timeline I wondering if Vorador's ring that Kain wears as an earring will come into play, maybe they'll call on him when they need some sort of assistance... the ring's been there since the beginning, maybe that's why (if people need a reason for anything, could just be asethetic) :)

Azazel005
25th Jul 2002, 14:23
Jeez that was a pointless waste of breath Darakari, I knew exactly what battle we were talking about and everthing I said is stil appropriate.

You argue a logical analysis of a piece of fiction, and you've made assumptions within that Mechanic to aid your argument.

I was looking at it as one looks at a piece of literature and said what I felt was important in that battle as a BATLLE two seperate fights that formed the same conflict.

I don't think your a Dim-wit because you believe what you believe, I just disagree. I felt the Symbolism was more important than devolping a level of rules which we decide how magic and wraiths work in nosgoth. You obviuosly want a clearer reason as to what magical force could in effect kill Malek.

Dont call me a Dim wit again, express your opinion cast your critiscm over my opinions but don't treat me (or anyone else) like an idiot, I don't apreciate it.

Umah Bloodomen
25th Jul 2002, 18:49
Originally posted by Azazel005
Dont call me a Dim wit again, express your opinion cast your critiscm over my opinions but don't treat me (or anyone else) like an idiot, I don't apreciate it.

So you are the one who caused this little flame-tangent? (I'm just messing with you Azazel. ;) ).

I do agree with this quote of yours. Insults are definately not appropriate here. Especially without justification. So much for the term "friendly debate" eh? :rolleyes:

Farfaniccio
26th Jul 2002, 01:21
Yo, I take responsibility for saying Raz killed Malek. I got Malek and Melchiah mixed up and in another thread I already appologized for it. I guess I am the dim wit here. But does it really matter who kills Malek if he dies at the same time in all time frames?

keepittrue
26th Jul 2002, 01:32
Originally posted by Farfaniccio
But does it really matter who kills Malek if he dies at the same time in all time frames?




:cool: YES!!!!

CyberFish
27th Jul 2002, 14:07
Not really, no. But Malek might make an interesting boss fight in SR3. And besides, if gives Raziel a good excuse to visit Dark Eden. That place was pretty cool in the Physical realm, it must be awesome in the Spectral realm.

Umah Bloodomen
27th Jul 2002, 23:39
Originally posted by CyberFish
Not really, no. But Malek might make an interesting boss fight in SR3. And besides, if gives Raziel a good excuse to visit Dark Eden. That place was pretty cool in the Physical realm, it must be awesome in the Spectral realm.

I forsee Raziel traveling to Dark Eden in SR3. Amy said that they were aiming at focusing a bit on Turel in future installments, and how he eluded Raziel in Soul Reaver 1.

Turel, as you may (or may not) know, inhabited Dark Eden and was originally supposed to be in the final cut of SR1 but was ultimately cut out. For more information on that, visit Blincoln's site. It was very informative. ;)

KainSyndrome101
28th Jul 2002, 20:49
So that means we might go back to the wasteland in SR1? Hmmm...

It would be cool to see the whole place with better visuals. It sure would bring back the memories.

Mordred
3rd Aug 2002, 00:08
hehe Leave poor Vorador alone :) people always seem to want Raziel to have been every where and done every thing, let that bit of history stay with Vorador :)

Non-existent
3rd Aug 2002, 02:22
Mord: Here here! Raziel has explained enough stuff to explain sticky points in LoK. I swear, LoK will be nothing more than a long G.I. Joe episode if they keep having Raz's presence explain things. It is already enough that he is used as the Reaver to explain tons of events, it would be even worse if in the altered timeline they have him killing Armor Malek, and who knows what else. His delaying of Malek, with Moebius, to allow Vorador to kill the Circle members was already seriously pushing it for the coincidence department, hopefully CD avoids anymore of that.

As for visiting Dark Eden and battling Turel... that would be pleasant. Hopefully SR3 incorporates plenty of vampire fighting as well as more sophisticated human fighting, and especially, at least one boss battle reminiscent of SR1, which a showdown with Turel would provide, hopefully.

keepittrue
3rd Aug 2002, 20:42
Originally posted by Non-existent
Mord: Here here! Raziel has explained enough stuff to explain sticky points in LoK. I swear, LoK will be nothing more than a long G.I. Joe episode if they keep having Raz's presence explain things. It is already enough that he is used as the Reaver to explain tons of events, it would be even worse if in the altered timeline they have him killing Armor Malek, and who knows what else. His delaying of Malek, with Moebius, to allow Vorador to kill the Circle members was already seriously pushing it for the coincidence department, hopefully CD avoids anymore of that.

As for visiting Dark Eden and battling Turel... that would be pleasant. Hopefully SR3 incorporates plenty of vampire fighting as well as more sophisticated human fighting, and especially, at least one boss battle reminiscent of SR1, which a showdown with Turel would provide, hopefully.

I second this, one of the main reasons I like SR1 better.

Azazel005
4th Aug 2002, 11:21
Same