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Power reaver
22nd Jul 2002, 14:54
The Elder is a very funny thingamajig .

I mean besides his looks , just look at his stupidity , 500 yrs before BO he calls Raz a traitor (as Raz refuses to kill Kain) and 2000+yrs later he makes him the Soul Reaver (or at least supports him mentally and tells him where to go next) to kill Kain . Either he has very bad memory or he is plain dumb

Back to the Topic : Why would Squiddy do that ? , from SR2 he looks more of the parasite that causes Nosgoths corruption , but knowing that Raz is the savior of Nosgoth , why would help him in his infancy ? Isnt it strange , it makes me think that the Elder isnt all bad , he is probably manipulating him into doing the right thing .

Think about it : Elder tells Raz that Kain is a b****** , makes him angry , his anger fuels his lust for power , and probably is the reason he got the wraith blade . Then in the past he makes Raz think that he (Elder) desparately needs to kill Kain and his natural growth makes Raz think he is a parasite . Kind of acting as a bad guy but really doing good - its a classic Anime thing .

Or it could be the boring Elder is out of time and space thing since he is a god . :p

Anubis_Orr
22nd Jul 2002, 15:06
It's debatable whether or not the Elder made Raziel the Soul Reaver or whether that always was his destiny.... but anyway, The Elder wouldn't have known ahead of time that Raziel was going to spare Kain, even as Raziel was acting it was changing history and because of the power fo the Soul Reaver it was not just a minor change but a paradoxical one that altered the course of the stream.
The Elder is immune (or so it seems) from the changes of time but that does not mean that he is omniscient, he can't see what's going to happen but what HAS happened, and that is subject to change.

Umah Bloodomen
22nd Jul 2002, 19:32
I am willing to bet that Squiddy did not make Raziel what he was. He merely was there at the time Raziel woke up and took the credit. It is becoming more apparent everyday that Raziel was originally a Soul Reaving entity (much like that of the Ancient Race).

Squiddy is in this for his own reasons. I agree with you Anubis, that he can't necessarily see the events of the future. Hence why he has Moebius see that for him. (Providing that Squiddy is somehow related to Hash'ak'gik then this is more than supported seeing Moebius is a devout follower of the Dark Entity).

It makes no sense for Squiddy to anger Raziel into "doing the right thing". Anger often clouds one's judgement and their actions. (Meaning they can't think about the consequences, they merely want an immediate course of action - impulse). Raziel was so angered at Kain in William's Chapel, that he drew the blade upon him, he had more than the chance to destroy him and didn't. Why you ask? Well that is obvious, Kain opened his mouth and caused Raziel to calm down and think about the "big picture" and what he was about to do. (This was the point that Raziel began to become insubordinate with Squiddy, trying to weigh all options before taking a specific course of action).

As for your reference to the paradoxial change, Anubis, I think that really screwed up Squiddy's & Moebius' game. Neither of them expected it, nor could they see the events of the altered timeline. Both of them are currently flying blind and making things up as they go along to fufill their own intentions.

darien_specter
22nd Jul 2002, 19:52
Yeah, when my sister played SR1, even before she knew the Elder would turn out evil, she said he was evil, because he was telling Raziel to be guided by his hatred...

Even after Raziel spared Kain, there wasn't a whole lot changed at that point. I think Moebius was really freaked out right after the fact; but the rest of the events were Moebius' plan unfolding just as he had ordained it: sending Raziel to the future, so he could get all good and cranky (and letting him get to the Air forge - now why would Moebius want the forges active? Of course, Raziel was going to die before he got them all anyway, so I guess it was useful for him to get at that one...), and would then use his pre-set time streaming chamber to go back and blaze the trail for the Sarafan to follow... but I bet they're really screwed up now... :D

Anubis, good point: the Elder would be cheesed, because as far as he knew Raziel was going to kill Kain and get himself sucked into the Reaver; so he's caught out now, too...

keepittrue
22nd Jul 2002, 21:58
I agree somewhat of what Umah has said but I do believe the Elder God has/had some influence on Raziels present existence. The main reason I believe so is because Raziel cannot die, and if it was just him without the elders influence then a regular Vampire Wraith would be able to kill Raziel. I dont know how much impact the Elder has on Raziel but I do believe he has some.

Anubis_Orr
23rd Jul 2002, 01:12
I think Moebius was really freaked out because at that point all his power meant precisely NOTHING, Raziel could have killed him there resulting in a paradoxical event and a nice big stone thrown in the river :)

Well... IMO the Souls of everything in Nosgoth are just like energy, and energy can be neither destroyed or created, and that is why Raziel cannot die, when he consumes a Soul it's not destroyed just changed (maybe makes him stronger, allows him to maintain form better, etc)


As for your reference to the paradoxial change, Anubis, I think that really screwed up Squiddy's & Moebius' game. Neither of them expected it, nor could they see the events of the altered timeline. Both of them are currently flying blind and making things up as they go along to fufill their own intentions.

I think it really screwed them up too, but as to their flying blind.. I don't think so, Raziel was too neatly and intricately maneuvered into providing access to Janos, as I said I think the Elder is outside of time but can only see what has happened and after Raziel spared Kain he (and others) had to go to "Plan B"

playaphilosophy
23rd Jul 2002, 04:47
What were most of you thinking and I quote "I am willing to bet that Squiddy did not make Raziel what he was. He merely was there at the time Raziel woke up and took the credit." The Elder God made Raziel into the vampire that he is -- the Soul Weaver. The proof are there in the cinema event in SR1 and the manual instruction SR2 -- read the History of Nosgoth. The Elder God is the devour of souls (quote in SR2 cinema) and the weaver of souls before he made Raziel to be his Angel of Death. The Elder God did not coincidencely find Raziel. The Elder God was and always there in the underworld. Raziel was saved by the Elder God, nearly from oblivion. Raziel cannot just wake up, he's in a deep hot white fire that burns his body almost into crisp. Raziel, do not have the kind of power to turn himself into the devour of souls. I don't know much about the myths behind soul reaver, but I bet you Elder God did save Raziel!

Anubis_Orr
23rd Jul 2002, 05:21
All quotes concerning the Elder are either from Raziel or the Elder himself. The Elder exaggerates his importance while Raziel spurns him, so you really can't trust any quote about him.

Power reaver
23rd Jul 2002, 12:04
i think the elder made Raz even more angry and like Umah said , you cant think while your angry , plus he gave a lot of advice , and at least till he got the Wraith Blade , if the Elder didnt rant Kain this and kain that as soon as Raz awakened , i bet ya that Raz would have probably thunk over it and used his head rather then his hatred .

I support the "Elder is an evil squid thing" theory and that" he did not create Raz" theory but he s definately an interesting character because only 2 people talk about him in the whole series (Raz and himself , as stated before) so we know very little about him and he could turn out to be the "good guy" who wants to save Nosgoth but has to kill Kain and Raz to do it (but theres as alternative way that kain keeps talking about) .

After all , he calls himself a God .:rolleyes:

Umah Bloodomen
23rd Jul 2002, 19:48
Originally posted by playaphilosophy
What were most of you thinking and I quote "I am willing to bet that Squiddy did not make Raziel what he was. He merely was there at the time Raziel woke up and took the credit." The Elder God made Raziel into the vampire that he is -- the Soul Weaver. The proof are there in the cinema event in SR1 and the manual instruction SR2 -- read the History of Nosgoth. The Elder God is the devour of souls (quote in SR2 cinema) and the weaver of souls before he made Raziel to be his Angel of Death. The Elder God did not coincidencely find Raziel. The Elder God was and always there in the underworld. Raziel was saved by the Elder God, nearly from oblivion. Raziel cannot just wake up, he's in a deep hot white fire that burns his body almost into crisp. Raziel, do not have the kind of power to turn himself into the devour of souls. I don't know much about the myths behind soul reaver, but I bet you Elder God did save Raziel!

I was thinking that Squiddy did not make Raziel a soul reaver. It is becoming very apparent (and I said this above) that his originial existence was that of a Soul Reaver. (Just as the Ancient Race were). Squiddy was there when Raziel woke up and took the credit. I don't think he had anything to do with turning the human gone vamp into the little blue guy we all know and love. As for "my angel of death" he was the one orchestrating Raziel's course of action, fueling his head. Raziel already had the power to do what he did, but there was no drive/motivation other than to destroy Kain. He knew nothing of the glyphs, nothing of the forges, nothing of the wraith/blood reaver. He simply wanted Kain. You are right, the elder god did not coincidentally "find" Raziel. Raziel coincidentally found the elder god. There was no evidence of Squiddy (in that current form) anywhere in Nosgoth. He layed dormant beneath its surface. Now if he is linked to Hash'ak'gik (which I believe that he is) then yes, he did have a presence in Nosgoth. An active one. Squiddy did not save Raziel. Raziel had that ability on his own. (and the drive to succeed at it).

Vampmaster
23rd Jul 2002, 21:15
Maybe he's just using the Chronoplast and Moebius visions to see into the future and make himself seem more powerful than he really is.

darien_specter
23rd Jul 2002, 21:43
He's a giant, subterranean, parasitic squid. He can't use the Chronoplast... Even if his intentions are less than honest, and he had nothing to do with Raziel's resurrection (both statements I agree with), that doesn't mean he can't still possess supernatural qualities, such as being sort of outside of time, and thereby knowing the entire skein of history. Only when the path is changed would he know any different; and then he would be irate with Raziel, as we saw...

Anubis_Orr
23rd Jul 2002, 22:39
I've always thought Raziel was destined to be the Soul Reaver even though the Elder claimed credit, but I disagree that the Ancients were Soul Reavers too, or else why would they have to wait for Raziel to appear? I think he is unique and only he can fulfill the purpose that they intend for him.

Power reaver
24th Jul 2002, 14:44
Yeah , I also dont think the ancients were not soul devourers like Raz , I think they were mutated humans , um i mean humans were devolved ancients , or perhaps they had no connection at all (except they lived on the same planet) . i think before the blood curse they ate normal stuff , you know , stuffed human with no blood , saraphan (dry ofcourse) , and perhaps they had raw squid . After the Blood Curse it was the other way round . :p


I still find it strange that they made the SR a BR which would turn to SR in the future . Perhaps they didnt know how to , or have the power to , or perhaps they wanted it to remain BR (I know , I know , you all will say without the SR this wouldent happen and that wouldent happen , I am aware of all that , but i still find it strange)

heres a theory regarding the reaver .
MAJOR BO2 SPOILER (sorry Darien)
I think you all know about the nexus stone , it makes the wearer imune to the SR , well do we know when it was made ? Cause if we dont then its a good possibility it existed during the war . Probably the SR was still the SR at the time but due to that imune Hylden they changed the Reaver to a BR so the Nexus stone would have no effect on it . Thus the Hylden were defeated and they curse the Ancients to become Vamps . Now probably the SR was made as the key , as there was no SR only the BR , the lock had been weakened . That along with the corruption allowed the Hylden to attack kain in BO2 . Thus Raz was chosen to restore the BR to its original SR state , but this event was countered at the end of SR2 . Thus the lock became weaker till the SR was made sometime before 50 years before BO , assuming the lock was not restored to its original state right after the SR is forged . Now the guy who kills the guy with the nexus stone is probably Raz holding the BR , now the question arises who was in the reaver when it was originally made ? Perhaps it was Raz himself .

think - Getting Raz get sucked right into the reaver early on into the game is a really good way of scaring the audience . But he is released in the war to turn the SR back to BR , he defeats the Hylden and after the war was asked by the Ancients to get sucked back into the reaver , but it was not to be and Raz escapes the Ancients . Then he goes around time setting things right , kills the ultimate evil and does 1 of the following :

1) He is absorbed into the Reaver and either goes mad or finds true peace within it .

2) He finds a way to remain alive/dead and make the SR at the same time .

3) He puts the infamous "To Be Continued" sign on his butt and bends down :p

darien_specter
24th Jul 2002, 17:59
Whoa whoa whoa, major BO2 spoilers there! No we do NOT all know about the Nexus stone, because we haven't all played BO2 yet! This is the SR forum, which is not to say don' discuss BO2 plot elements (it is all one story, and therefore blends across) but put in some kind of warning next time, I almost runied the whole thing for myself! (Which matters because my copy of BO2 is finally on the way! Woohoo!)

playaphilosophy
24th Jul 2002, 21:18
Here's alittle reading for all whose skeptical about the Mysteries of Elder God:

Q: Did raziel just fall into the Elders Lair? And like adapt somehow to his
surroundings?
A: Do you mean was Raziel correct in his accusations in his final confrontation with the Elder God?
When people hear the dialogue, it's important to remember that just because a character says something, it isn't necessarily correct. What you're hearing is that character's opinion and subjective interpretation.
So if you mean: "did Raziel just drop into the EG's lap by coincidence, or did the EG have something to do with his resurrection?" Let's just say Raziel doesn't know everything yet, and neither do we.

You all are agreeing with Raziel's opinion, but not the whole truth.
Although we may or not know the origin of Raziel become the Soul Weaver yet, we can only hope the answer is in SR3. I justified my opinions with x-samples. Where is yours? I want to know how Raziel can just turn himself into the Soul Reaver (devour of souls, when he still suck on humans blood) when he's down that burning hot white fire dissolving his body? It's not possible.

Another thing, if Elder God did not make Raziel. How did he know when Raziel was weaken by his hunger, not for blood anymore but for Souls, if he had not created Raziel? Gimme reasons to believe Raziel coincidently become the Soul Reaver, and happen to be in the UnderWorld with Elder God in his awakenning.

Anubis_Orr
24th Jul 2002, 23:08
Our opinions don't have to be justified because they are just that, opinions. And your examples do nothing to justify your opinions either because all of the material is a subjective interpretation AND subject to change at the whim of anybody who's in on the next game.

And as for the Elder knowing that Raziel was the Soul Reaver it already SEEMS that the Elder knows what's going on in the timeline (given the time changes in SR2 the Elder always knows where/what Raziel has done) it seems he is out of time and aware of what happens so he would know that Raziel was a Soul Reaver.

Coincidence is what ALL games/movies are about, the main character always finds something just at the right time and place that helps the story progress, it is a tool of good writing.

Power reaver
25th Jul 2002, 06:45
Raz is a spectral creature , he is in the spectral realm , what is he going to eat ? souls ofcourse . If you remember the dailogs correctly then its Raziel 1st who states that he has no desire for blood . Then the Elder analysis the situation , this is what he probably thinks :

Elder : Hmmmm , Raziel unlike other souls has a certain form just like a wraith , and he is weak , a former Vampire and has no desire for blood , in the spectral realm one eats souls , and if he is a spectral creature , then he must , like other vampire wraiths , eat souls !

Besides Elder has seen Raziel in the past (SR2) , and if you noticed the planar portal in the Spectral realm is on the elder . Raziel probably ate a few souls and shifted to material , in front of the elder . Do you need more proof then this ?


BTW sorry Darien , i edited the post , I didnt know that there are still people out there who are alien to the BO2 plot , but I havent given away everything about the Nexus stone , there is a weee bit more you can chew on when you get the game . (You lucky spectre , your gettin the game , I still have wait ages before i get mine , if ever :( )

darien_specter
25th Jul 2002, 10:24
Hey, no problem; I realized just in time, and quickly ceased reading. I remain largely unaware... (no comments from the peanut gallery on that one ;) ) Just wanted to alert you for the future, and to look out for others, whose reflexes are not as quick as mine... :p