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Sade Lyrate
21st Jul 2002, 19:01
..not certain if this has been thus far discussed in some form or other, but...

It's been stated (in SR2, at least), that Nupraptor's Patented
Mind Blast rendered our Vampire-Lord-to-be insane when he was
taking his first breaths, in addition to the Circle. (Although whether
or not Ariel is insane, despite her own claims, can be
discussed...)
So I thought to ask what kind of madness people here believe to
have seized the newborn Kain? If and/or how did it 'manifest' in
his words & deeds?

warpsavant
21st Jul 2002, 19:28
Considering the fact that Kain was present in two different forms at the time Nupraptors Psychic Tsumani attacked the Gaurdians, I have to wonder if his future self's presence somehow deferred the blast from the infant Kain in that time.

Kain never seems mad/insane, more like he is just lost, not knowing what his purpose is or who he really is.

Serul
21st Jul 2002, 19:35
Then again we don't know much about Kain's previous life. For all we know he terrorized the whole neighbourhood when he was a kid. :D

And when we saw him at the beginning of BO1 in the tavern, maybe then he was just being "nice" because he was tired and wanted a drink.

KainSyndrome101
22nd Jul 2002, 00:32
I don't know about that. You could here his thoughts after the conversation, and he didn't seem evil.

Azrael
22nd Jul 2002, 01:50
Well the only thing that i've seen that could be resembled to "madness" was when he was a vamp, he liked to be one and keeped saying that he didn't...and not forgeting that he kept all of his human memories, and how many humans do you know that like to "chacinate" and drink blood from its victims? (ok dumb question, forget about it) And keeping in mind that he was from "noble blood"...

Just listen(read) some of Kain's (in BO1) frases:

Kain:
The cretin squandered life and left it seeping on the floor. Such waste was a travesty. Perhaps Nupraptor needed to be taught a lesson as to the value of blood.

Kain:
Worms and maggots fed upon his festering skin, the scent of tainted blood seeped through the wounds upon which they feasted. Pity . . . such a waste; good blood gone bad.

...

And the like of Kain with the spells:

Anti-Toxin:
"This cleanses my body of any dangerous poisons. Quite useful, with all the filth I find myself surrounded by."

theres more, but i think this ones are enough to see Kain's madness... I personally think that the vampire curse helped to show his evilness/madness, we see that in BO2 too...

Sade Lyrate
22nd Jul 2002, 08:27
Warpsavant: nice idea there with that future-Kain 'protecting' his
infant self from the Blast...even though something in it doesn't 'fit'
my way of thinking. And I agree with you about how he doesn't come
across as being insane, more like the most sensible person
around, at least in the SRs. In the BOs, yes, I think you describe
him well.

Serul: ;) And Kain's parents never got around making another kid...
What you said is true, though. We _don't_ know what kind of he
was in 'life'. 'Child-tyrant' sounds like a perfectly normal noble child
of the feudal system to me, though...;)

Azrael: So Kain's got a bit of an identity crisis, at least in BO1?
(not certain what you mean with "chacinate"...wish to explain?)
And, in my experience/knowledge, humans can be pretty 'weird'. Drinking
blood being one of the milder fetishes/kinks, and the human history
is riddled with myriad occasions of grand cruelty. Performed by one
person against his/her fellow mortals. (Okay, agreed, most of such
folk have been pronounced mentally ill, but you get my point...;)
And even though I support by no means nazis or their kind, I don't
think Hitler was mad. Also agreed, I haven't done a research on the
guy, just enough to know the main stuff...)
So what I'm trying to say here is that I don't think Kain's comments
show his 'madness'. Simply his morale and views. But a good,
good idea. And I apologize for not agreeing with it/attempting to
crush it. There are people in these very forums who have views quite
similar to Kain's... including myself.;)

Just for the record: I have always disliked the idea that acts of
cruelty and violence are commenced by 'insane' people. It's the
perfectly normal, civilized people who beat up each other, and
delight in gore.

Now, on to adding my thoughts... last night, I had a chat with Nite
about this... and I'm not sure how far we got. Since it's assumed
that Kain was mad from birth, it's hard to tell what character traits
he would have had sans 'insanity'. Would he have been as arrogant?
As cynical? Would he have treated the people around him with
such contempt? And was he admired/cursed as the very personification
of what a person of noble blood should be?

Nite and I pinned down a couple of traits that could be, at least if
taken a bit further, mental illnesses. Megalomania and paranoia
arose as our 'favorites'. Though Kain's paranoia would be, in my
opinion, quite well-founded. Megalomania is marginal, though. I
don't think Kain ever really wanted to rule the world, just his
'life'.

We ran into an idea that perhaps, just maybe, Kain's death and
resurrection as a vamp 'freed' him from his madness. For, as Warpsavant
stated here, and others elsewhere, Kain does not appear 'mad'. And
in SRs, he seems repentant more than anything else. As if somewhere
down the metaphorical road, he'd awaken from a madness-plagued
dream, into the realization of it all.

Time Streamer
22nd Jul 2002, 17:05
I find myself agreeing with you a lot Sade. SR2 implied that Kain had been affected by Nuptraptor's psychic assault which rendered other circle members mad. Clearly all the time Kain seems just arrogant due to his noble background, he doesn't strike being tainted by any powerful madness like the Circle members were.

I believe Arial wasn't affected by the mental attack because she was already dead.

Azrael
22nd Jul 2002, 17:44
Aww, my english :( .
Sorry guys, and Sade i think i suposelly made a mix between English and portuguese, but somehow write from a portuguese word "chacina" that means slaughter..sorry about that.


Posted by Sade Lyrate:
...So what I'm trying to say here is that I don't think Kain's comments show his 'madness'. Simply his morale and views. But a good, good idea...

I think in a certain way it show a bit, maybe he didn't got 100% affected by Nupppy's Psychic assault, since he was a baby when Nuppy did the Psychic assault, or its just his Vampire part talking...


Posted by Sade Lyrate:
...And I apologize for not agreeing with it/attempting to
crush it...

Hey, this is a forum, so that means when someone post an idea/theory, its expected a debate/corrections on that idea/theory, and i like to know the other people thoughts on that (since they don't offend me ;) )



Posted by Sade Lyrate:
There are people in these very forums who have views quite
similar to Kain's... including myself ;)

Yes i sometimes (ok a bit more than sometimes) have a view quite similiar to Kains, and i would do the same judgement as Kain did at the Pillars (awww, i was influenced by Nuppys Psychic Tsumani :p )

Non-existent
22nd Jul 2002, 20:58
Well, Kain's madness may not seem madness at all considering the court he was raised in.

The Coorhagen court seemed to be a harsh place from what little information we have been given about it.
Coorhagen - my home - the finest city in all of Nosgoth, rich in vanity and conceit. I had no delusions as to the welcome I would receive.

As Kain said:
Ottmar slumped on his throne like a rag doll, his beard matted with the tears of his own self-pity. In my court, he would have long since been usurped by one stronger, but in Willendorf they worshipped him, even in his weakness.

Obviously Coorhagen is a survival of the fittest.

Then there is the obvious sociopathic/psychotic tendencies Kain displays:
As I walked among them I smirked thinking of the carnage that would befall them at the hands of the Legions of the Nemesis . . . the glorious flames, the inevitable rape and pillage.


Worms and maggots fed upon his festering skin, the scent of tainted blood seeped through the wounds upon which they feasted. Pity . . . such a waste; good blood gone bad.

If it was not in the self-interest of the one acting it was not worth doing. Kain was probably just more extreme than others at his court, a little more arrogant, a little more ruthless, but this was probably considered a bonus.

Then, let's not forget his family's motto (if not his court's): Vae Victus.


Vae Victus - suffering to the conquered. Ironic that now I was the one suffering. Not anything as pedestrian as physical pain. Rather the cruel jab of impotent anger - the hunger for revenge.
I didn’t care if I was in Heaven or Hell - all I wanted was to kill my assassins. Sometimes you get what you wish for.

Even in his madness he probably appeared normal. His insanity, coupled with his court's inner/outer workings probably tempered him into an individual that was able to function fairly normally to all outward appearances by focusing his inward desires on the extension and maintaining of power.

keepittrue
22nd Jul 2002, 21:40
Hmm, interesting indeed.

I dont think at all the older Kain blocked the younger Kain from the wave. I think Kain was a pretty normal person and since he was just an infant, he could not have had many thoughts to go mad about. I think the madness only enhanced some of Kains personality traits. Mainly the ones NE was talking about. I really like what NE pointed out about Coorhagen and the people there.

Vampmaster
22nd Jul 2002, 23:07
I said in another thtread that I think the madness is paranoia. He sees treachary everywhere as Nupraptor suspected everyone as Ariels murderer. I think this is why he was so quick to suspect Duma of working with the Hylden and others as traitors. Raziel as well although with him that wasn't the only reason.

Non-existent
22nd Jul 2002, 23:42
Vampmaster:
I said in another thtread that I think the madness is paranoia. He sees treachary everywhere as Nupraptor suspected everyone as Ariels murderer. I think this is why he was so quick to suspect Duma of working with the Hylden and others as traitors. Raziel as well although with him that wasn't the only reason.

First: When it comes to Umah that was not Paranoia, that was common sense. Examples are laws in every military around the world, traitorous acts or acts of insubordination in a war zone are punishable by death. If you woke up after sleeping for 200 years surrounded by enemies, had allies that were dubious in their position, and just had a supposed ally run off with the key to your taking out the enemy that would crush your opposition you are not going to calmly say, "well, I found you, please, refrain from almost destroying the resistance's movement again". Kain killed Umah on more than the assumption she worked for the SL, he also killed here because she just about cost him everything. His claiming her to be working for the SL was most likely an attempt to further rationalize what he knew had to be done. It is much more palatabile to kill a traitor who works for the enemy than to kill an ally who just about cost everything because they decided to betray you on what amounts to a whim.

Umah was a liability to Kain no matter what, she showed she did not trust him, with no information on his manners besides Vorador's tales, which Vorador is obviously no fan of Kain. Umah, if left to live, would have most likely furthered dissention in the Cabal ranks and then Kain has traitors at his back. The possibility of this leaves him no choice, esp coupled with his raising in the Court of Coorhagen, kill her and retain power.

It did not take Madness to kill Umah, or suspect her of working for the other side, it took a simple evaluation of her actions from the time she was captured. She refuses to tell Kain what she found out before reaching Sanctuary, a true ally would not risk the loss of information that the success of resistance relys on. She teleports Kain away when he wished to face the SL (not only hurts pride, but when looking back it could appear the SL turned up conveniently so Umah could save Kain, gain trust, and later come back). The she takes the one item it has been determined can stop the SL in his tracks.

Second: The madness is not paranoia. In Nupraptor it was not. Nup knew a circle member killed Ariel, he went insane and infected all others. Bane and Dejoule, their madness had no paranoia, they were intent on changing nature into a diseased blight that would twist Nosgoth into a horrid land scape of malformed beasts. Azimuth wished to allow masses of demons into Nosgoth and spread death and destruction. Malek became quite the Recluse, bent on building an army, if his machines are to tell. Moebius... well, no telling with him, he may have had the madness from the word go and just liked to bend time to his own will and purpose. Morty, well he figured the only way to cleanse the circle was through the death of all others.

The one thing each mad guardian had was not paranoia, it was an obsession with spreading pain. Each guardian killed, or manipulated events in such a way to cause destruction and death on a phenomenal scale. Morty was the most subdued of them, and that was either because of his possession, immunity through his link to death, or incredible ability to focus that allowed him to find a solution to the problem. That the solution involved killing a human, raising the human as a vampire, and then setting the vampire loose to kill the other circle members does not imply a great deal of stability though.

That the madness can be overcome is apparent in that Kain wishes to right the corrupting of himself at least and what he did to the future Nosgoth and clear the madness permanently, allowing him to restore balance.

BadGuysAlwaysWin
23rd Jul 2002, 03:32
Like I've said before, I honestly believe that Kain's madness is his placing self worth above The Balance. I have no doubt in my mind that Ariel would have gladly sacrificed herself to maintain The Balance(and anyone else, as apparent by the fact that she had Kain kill her beloved and her former friends). An ideal Guardian of Balance, therefore, should be one who would be willing to sacrifice anything to maintain the balance of the Pillars. Kain did not do this, and thus chose to live for himself rather than to die for the Pillars (at the time when he made the choice, Kain did NOT know that the extinction of all Vampires would also destroy the Pillars. He found this out LATER; it cannot be used to defend his original choice). That is also why I think that Moebius started his evil-ness AFTER the Corruption of the Circle (and since he can time travel, he set up plans by going back in time). I honestly feel that, during SR2 (in the 500 years ago thing), there is likely ANOTHER Moebius that ISN'T evil (most likely at the Caves of the Oracle, or doing other general good Guardian things).

Non-existent
23rd Jul 2002, 04:13
BadGuys: Have you played all the LoK games? I ask because your post does not coincide with many things learned from them.

To Quote Soul Reaver 2 directly:

Raziel: V.O.:
As I approached, I discerned the spirit of Ariel - bound here now for more than a century.

[As Raziel approaches, he hears Ariel lamenting to herself, unaware of his presence.]

Ariel:
Forever am I bound, hope abandoned, my spirit tethered to this place... What destroyed the Circle could not touch me. For I was newly dead, and beyond harm's reach. I alone was spared the descent into madness, and Kain alone was spared the pain of death. When Nupraptor's poison seized Kain even in the safety of the womb, much more than just his destiny was lost. All of Nosgoth lost Balance. Consider us now... both of us less than we once were. I, pure but insubstantial; and Kain, terribly real, but corrupted.

[Raziel interrupts Ariel's reverie, and she turns in alarm.]

Raziel:
You imprisonment here has deranged you, spirit. You fixate on Kain because you believe he is the tether that binds you here. But we both know he is not the author of your agony. The Pillars were subverted by dark forces, invited by the Guardians themselves. The more I learn of your Circle, the more I see a tangle of nested manipulations.

[Ariel responds angrily.]

Ariel:
Kain handed them their victory. They sought to topple the Pillars, and he was their willing instrument.

[Raziel interrupts, challenging her.]

Raziel:
Or was he their unwilling pawn? Would it blunt your wrath to know that Kain's dilemma was calculated to bring the Pillars down, regardless of the choice he made? And that the devastation would have been even greater had he chosen the path you would prescribe for him?

Ariel:
You are a subtle, deceitful creature. But your clever arguments do not absolve Kain. He must die for the Pillars to be restored; there is no other way.

Raziel:
Then consider this more ominous possibility - what if Kain's death does not restore the Pillars? Consider that it may simply be too late. That this world may be beyond redemption. And that you may be bound here eternally.

[Distraught, Ariel flees into the spirit realm, unaware that Raziel is able to follow. Raziel shifts into spectral and startles her as she cowers behind the Balance Pillar. Cornered and miserable, Ariel implores Raziel.]

Ariel:
Why do you hound me, demon? You can see that I am captive here. Show me some mercy.

Raziel:
Like the mercy you showed your fellow Guardians when you set Kain on them? Or the mercy you showed Kain when you kept him ignorant of his destiny while you used him as the scourge of the Circle? Or perhaps like the mercy you showed your beloved Nupraptor when you made him Kain's first kill?

Ariel:
You are cruel. Why do you torment me?

[Weary of this, Raziel relents.]

Raziel:
I'm merely looking for answers, Ariel. Very well - I'll leave you in peace. But know this - about you, and this purgatory from which you long to escape...you're merely at the threshold.

Somewhere else I also remember reading something about the Circle already being corrupted, and only Nupraptor's madness drove the pillars to the breaking point which required the replacing of the Cirlce.

The desperation in Ariel's voice alone shows that she is in no way apart of the balance. That she loved Nupraptor at all showed she was not keeping the balance. If she was truly apart of the balance she would have neither loved or hated, she would be completely apathetic to her own situation and that of the world, seeking only to keep things stable but uncaring which way the pendulum swings, if the world swings to good she would have to swing to evil, and vice versa. Ironically she is as unbalanced as Kain.


BadGuysAlwaysWin: there is likely ANOTHER Moebius that ISN'T evil Not likely actually. Why? Because the good Moebius would never let any one mess with the TimeStream like that, especially not a corrupt version of himself. In fact, a good Moebius would do his best to make sure he never became corrupted. More likely is that Moebius was always corrupt, either through early pacts with the Elder, or because his link with the time pillar corrupted him from the word go (he already knew when he was going to die after all, when Raz first meets him he seems a little unstable and vindictive, and the madness was yet to taint the circle, etc). Most likely is that Moebius was corrupted very early on because of a desire for power, he may have been chosen to be the time guardian, but that in no way suggests he was chosen because he was selfless. Most likely he found the Elder early, and helped to ensure the possession of Morty or something.

The madness was, I reiterate, the spreading of pain throughout the world. Every single guardian with the exception of Morty did this. Every guardian, including Kain, spread more death through Nosgoth. Considering they were supposed to safeguard life, it is pretty easy to see that the madness was just that.

Kain's refusal of self-sacrfice was the corruption doing what it does, spread destruction and pain, setting himself was apiece of it, but not the whole shabang. That Kain refused to sacrifice himself actually, considering the later revealed events, can be defended using what we find out later because it actually indicates a subconscious desire to restore balance, something he cannot do if he is dead, but something he can work towards while 'alive'. It is just that his attempts at making a better world are corrupt as well, because he does not seek to balance the whole, only provide for the vampires.

The simple fact is that Ariel was not truly willing to defend the balance, she allowed Nup to be hunted because he had become a twisted spiteful thing she wanted put out of its misery. She encouraged the fall of the others because she knew one was responsible, and may have held all responsible, esp her 'guardian' Malek. And she wanted Kain dead because until he died she was bound at the pillars. Notice how she never actually tells Kain about her being bound to the Pillars until the Balance is restored, kinda leaves that little tidbit out.

Even her subtle manipulation of Kain through BO1 indicates a soul that is not part of the balance, but likes to pretend they are.

BadGuysAlwaysWin
23rd Jul 2002, 06:26
The Pillar of Balance isn't supposed to be some kind of EUNICH. There is no reason why he or she can't love someone. No "rules" like that exist for Guardians of the Circle, you know. While, in hindsight, it would have been smarter for her to have had no relationship with Nupraptor, had she not been murdered, Nupraptor would not have poisoned the rest of the Circle.
Also, your long quote of the conversation between Raziel and Ariel in SR2 has no bearing on the conversation. Raziel is rather famous for repeatedly changing his view of the world (and whenever he does, he speaks with such conviction as if THAT is the only truth in the universe... likely a drawback of his Sarafan life). Raziel also once believed that killing Kain would solve the problems of Nosgoth with the same conviction that he now believes it won't. This doesn't necessarily offer proof EITHER way, so I fail to see the importance of that quote.


Somewhere else I also remember reading something about the Circle already being corrupted, and only Nupraptor's madness drove the pillars to the breaking point which required the replacing of the Cirlce.

We SEE the corruption of the Circle, both in BO1 and in SR2. That is the exact moment when Nupraptor discovers the body of Ariel, and in anger, unleashes the madness upon the rest of the Circle of Nine. As each member is poisoned, their Pillar turns corrupted and black. Even though Ariel was dead, Kain was already born, and so there was nothing wrong with the Pillar of Balance. But since Kain was maddened as well, his Pillar also cracked.


The desperation in Ariel's voice alone shows that she is in no way apart of the balance. That she loved Nupraptor at all showed she was not keeping the balance. If she was truly apart of the balance she would have neither loved or hated, she would be completely apathetic to her own situation and that of the world, seeking only to keep things stable but uncaring which way the pendulum swings, if the world swings to good she would have to swing to evil, and vice versa. Ironically she is as unbalanced as Kain.

The desperation in Ariel's voice is proof that she was a perfect Pillar of Balance. Even in death, she is unable to let go of the inbalance of Nosgoth, and thus stays on to help Kain in his path (and since Kain chooses himself rather than Balance, she is thus doomed to spend eternity there). And the Guardians aren't just physical manifestations of the Pillar's power! They are people who each control an aspect of Nosgoth, and eventually come to embody it. It was an OUTSIDE evil that caused the Circle's destruction. No one before this would have thought an event like this would have happened (and thus, the brilliant tactical mind of Hash'ak'gik). Her job is to make sure that Balance is maintained, and since she dies before she can accomplish this (as the problem is created BECAUSE of her death), she stays to guide her successor to restore Balance by killing the Pillars. Remember, even in the beginning she is still mourning for Nupraptor:


Ariel: Nupraptor, your madness has shattered our dreams and blinded you . . .

Even still, however, she has Kain kill the man she loved, as well as her former friends. This shows extreme devotion to the Balance, as she would sacrifice those she loved to it (many people would martyr themselves. Most, however, would stop short of martyring those closest to them). As there is no "rule" that you cannot love, and as she could NOT tell the future, she had no way of knowing that her innocent love (the kindest of emotions) would cause such horror. I am absolutely sure that had she even suspected what it would cause, she would never have had a relationship with Nupraptor.

The suggestion that the Elder had something to do with Mortanius' possession is one I completely disagree with. There are more plots at work here than this, which seems too highly obvious. My personal belief is that Moebius was made into the Guardian of Time ages ago, and simply goes back and forth as he needs. With his ability to see into time, he could know exactly which moments he needs to appear, and would go directly to that time. In that way, he could maintain the GUISE of immortality, while actually going back and forth. That is why he speaks in the PAST TENSE of events that are YET TO HAPPEN. And not just "Kain will kill me in 30 years", but when he tells Raziel that "you failed to kill Kain" 470 years before Raziel fails to kill Kain, since Time was altered, the only way this could be explained is that Moebius is only one person alive in all eras. The Moebius alive AFTER Ariel's death, however, becomes poisoned, and thus goes across time altering what he needs. I am certain that, at one point, there IS a Moebius that is not evil. Remember, however, that Time CANNOT be altered (without two Soul Reavers, anyway). Thus, the good Moebius would have no reason to believe that his future self can alter history (and since the FUTURE changes, the past-good Moebius wouldn't know that anything had occurred). Likewise, he would never TRY and change history because that would go against his own duty.

And finally, we KNOW that the madness was indeed, "madness." As Kain says,


The Pillars reflected the mental state of their servants, and as the minds of the Circle degenerated and descended further into dementia, the Pillars crumbled.

Note the term "dementia." The Guardians of the Circle go insane, and each begin to do whatever they want with their powers, which, basically, means doing the exact opposite of what they were meant to do. How did Malek cause pain throughout the land? His was the ONLY Pillar that was directly linked to violence and bloodshed, and he shut himself away in the freezing mountains of his Bastion, while all the others, whose Pillars have such positive aspects (Nature, Mind, Energy, and even Balance) cause great death throughout the lands. Thus, they all do the OPPOSITE of what their Pillars would have them do: Bane destroys and corrupts Nature, Nupraptor destroys the minds of others, Dejoul uses energy to pervert and destroy, Malek allows war and conflict to tear the land apart, and Kain damns the Pillars and Nosgoth.


That Kain refused to sacrifice himself actually, considering the later revealed events, can be defended using what we find out later because it actually indicates a subconscious desire to restore balance, something he cannot do if he is dead, but something he can work towards while 'alive'.

Uhm... How does what we find out LATER have any bearing on what Kain did at THAT time? He can't see into the future! If you punch a man in the face for bumping into you, and LATER find out that he was running from a bank robbery, you didn't punch him to stop a burgler; you punched him because he BUMPED INTO YOU. That doesn't make you a hero, it makes you a villain who happened to be in the right place at the right time. Kain made the decision due to the 4 reasons I spell out here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?threadid=2060).

Finally, there WAS no manipulation of Kain in BO1. You can plainly SEE the Pillars become restored to their pre-corruption state every time Kain kills the Guardian and returns their artifact to the Pillar. This isn't a lie, it is PLAIN FACT. And there was no reason to tell Kain every detail about her life and death. There was no need to tell him about her staying there, as it was obviously HER choice to come there and fix what evil was wrought when she was killed. If she wanted to truly manipulate Kain, she would have not shown him his complete choices (the two different cards), or she could have lied about their meanings, or whatever. She left the choice up to him because THAT is the essence of the Pillar of Balance; she simply suspected that Kain would make the same choice that SHE would have made.

Non-existent
23rd Jul 2002, 19:41
BadGuys:
Uhm... How does what we find out LATER have any bearing on what Kain did at THAT time? He can't see into the future! If you punch a man in the face for bumping into you, and LATER find out that he was running from a bank robbery, you didn't punch him to stop a burgler; you punched him because he BUMPED INTO YOU. That doesn't make you a hero, it makes you a villain who happened to be in the right place at the right time. Kain made the decision due to the 4 reasons I spell out here.

You know what that is basically saying? Forget the entire idea of LoK being a continuity, forget them being connected, there is nothing there. You are not asking for bearing. You are asking for JUSTIFICATION. In case you did not know, I am not even trying to Justify, I am giving bearing. Why would he be compelled to act like this? He is probably still serving the Balance. Justifying it would be attempting to excuse his acts. Justification could never have been given for any of his acts, including the taking of his own life.


The Pillar of Balance isn't supposed to be some kind of EUNICH. There is no reason why he or she can't love someone.

Let me quote a famous song by Percy Sledge:

When a man loves a woman
Can't keep his mind on nothin' else
He'd trade the world
For a good thing he's found
If she is bad, he can't see it
She can do no wrong
Turn his back on his best friend
If he puts her down
That is precisely why she cannot serve the Balance and love someone. It is called Favoritism, and it destroys any thought of Balance.


We SEE the corruption of the Circle, both in BO1 and in SR2. That is the exact moment when Nupraptor discovers the body of Ariel, and in anger, unleashes the madness upon the rest of the Circle of Nine. As each member is poisoned, their Pillar turns corrupted and black. Even though Ariel was dead, Kain was already born, and so there was nothing wrong with the Pillar of Balance. But since Kain was maddened as well, his Pillar also cracked.
Obviously you do not know what I am talking about. There was information given, I forget where, I think the BO1 strat guide, maybe buried in SR2 dialogue, one of the two, where it is said, specifically, that Nupraptor's Madness only EXPOSED the corruption, made it more apparent, more visible, showed the Pillars for what they were. That does have some bearing. I really wish I could remember where it was, because I hate giving undocumented information like that. Skip over that for now, if either of us eventually comes over it then we can reintroduce, until then we can leave it as a non-issue.


The desperation in Ariel's voice is proof that she was a perfect Pillar of Balance. Even in death, she is unable to let go of the inbalance of Nosgoth, and thus stays on to help Kain in his path (and since Kain chooses himself rather than Balance, she is thus doomed to spend eternity there). And the Guardians aren't just physical manifestations of the Pillar's power! They are people who each control an aspect of Nosgoth, and eventually come to embody it. It was an OUTSIDE evil that caused the Circle's destruction. No one before this would have thought an event like this would have happened (and thus, the brilliant tactical mind of Hash'ak'gik). Her job is to make sure that Balance is maintained, and since she dies before she can accomplish this (as the problem is created BECAUSE of her death), she stays to guide her successor to restore Balance by killing the Pillars. Remember, even in the beginning she is still mourning for Nupraptor:
Love Blinds. She is in love and mourning the loss of her love. She also is no longer the Pillar Guardian. She is no longer reliable to trust what Balance is. You said it yourself, she is still mourning Nupraptor instead of moving on and figuring out the next step to restore Balance.


Ariel: Nupraptor, your madness has shattered our dreams and blinded you . . .
What dreams? This does not sound like someone I would trust. Someone with hidden dreams and ambitions, recently dead, bound as a shade, believing blindly that only the death of Kain can release her. That is not Balance.


Even still, however, she has Kain kill the man she loved, as well as her former friends. This shows extreme devotion to the Balance, as she would sacrifice those she loved to it (many people would martyr themselves. Most, however, would stop short of martyring those closest to them). As there is no "rule" that you cannot love, and as she could NOT tell the future, she had no way of knowing that her innocent love (the kindest of emotions) would cause such horror. I am absolutely sure that had she even suspected what it would cause, she would never have had a relationship with Nupraptor. Yup, she sends Kain off as her private assassin to kill Nupraptor and the Circle member who killed her. The more I hear the more I see her as far from being the 'Perfect, shinging example of a Balance Guardian' you present her as. She is in mourning, hurt over betrayal, and upset over seeing Nosgoth become corrupted, and she still seeks to meddle in affairs. That is not Balance.

As for the future, yeah, maybe if she knew the future she would not have, but serving Balance she would have known the risk anyways, Balance can have no favorites, that is the essence of Balance, neither good nor evil, neither hate nor love. Ariel is Kain's foil, she is Love to Kain's Hate, and she is every bit as unBalanced as he.


The suggestion that the Elder had something to do with Mortanius' possession is one I completely disagree with. There are more plots at work here than this, which seems too highly obvious. My personal belief is that Moebius was made into the Guardian of Time ages ago, and simply goes back and forth as he needs. With his ability to see into time, he could know exactly which moments he needs to appear, and would go directly to that time. In that way, he could maintain the GUISE of immortality, while actually going back and forth. That is why he speaks in the PAST TENSE of events that are YET TO HAPPEN. And not just "Kain will kill me in 30 years", but when he tells Raziel that "you failed to kill Kain" 470 years before Raziel fails to kill Kain, since Time was altered, the only way this could be explained is that Moebius is only one person alive in all eras. The Moebius alive AFTER Ariel's death, however, becomes poisoned, and thus goes across time altering what he needs. I am certain that, at one point, there IS a Moebius that is not evil. Remember, however, that Time CANNOT be altered (without two Soul Reavers, anyway). Thus, the good Moebius would have no reason to believe that his future self can alter history (and since the FUTURE changes, the past-good Moebius wouldn't know that anything had occurred). Likewise, he would never TRY and change history because that would go against his own duty.

Trust me, good ol' past Moeb would have seen the meddling, and he would have known how to stop it. Two Soul Reavers, by the by, is not the key, it is Paradoxes, reality can be changed with Paradoxes, the Soul Reavers existing in the same time when they are the same matter are a paradox, thus History can be altered. Introduce a paradox and history must change. Thus, Good Ol's Moeb, being the master of time, would have been able to tell about Evil Moeb, and he would have taken measures. How is this known? Because Evil Moeb was interfering long before Nupraptor's Curse corrupted the circle, like, say 500 years before during the Serafan Purges. Good Moeb woulda felt the disturbances enacted from those moments on. Only conclusion that Moeb was corrupt long before Nup blasted the Circle.


Note the term "dementia." The Guardians of the Circle go insane, and each begin to do whatever they want with their powers, which, basically, means doing the exact opposite of what they were meant to do. How did Malek cause pain throughout the land? His was the ONLY Pillar that was directly linked to violence and bloodshed, and he shut himself away in the freezing mountains of his Bastion, while all the others, whose Pillars have such positive aspects (Nature, Mind, Energy, and even Balance) cause great death throughout the lands. Thus, they all do the OPPOSITE of what their Pillars would have them do: Bane destroys and corrupts Nature, Nupraptor destroys the minds of others, Dejoul uses energy to pervert and destroy, Malek allows war and conflict to tear the land apart, and Kain damns the Pillars and Nosgoth.
*sigh* When did I say they were not insane. You say it is simply a case of doing the opposite. I believe the Lakota Speaking Peoples called them Contraries. Washed with dirt, dried with water, basically acted contrary. I happen to say they become completely Psychotic and Sociopathic and this is not insane? Yet simply saying goodbye when you mean hello is?

Oh, by the by, I love how you changed Malek in this thread to being someone who should spread pain and violence and in the other you said he should prevent conflict.


Finally, there WAS no manipulation of Kain in BO1. You can plainly SEE the Pillars become restored to their pre-corruption state every time Kain kills the Guardian and returns their artifact to the Pillar. This isn't a lie, it is PLAIN FACT. And there was no reason to tell Kain every detail about her life and death. There was no need to tell him about her staying there, as it was obviously HER choice to come there and fix what evil was wrought when she was killed. If she wanted to truly manipulate Kain, she would have not shown him his complete choices (the two different cards), or she could have lied about their meanings, or whatever. She left the choice up to him because THAT is the essence of the Pillar of Balance; she simply suspected that Kain would make the same choice that SHE would have made.
Yes, from word go he was manipulated. Morty did it, Moeb did it, Ariel did it.


She left the choice up to him because THAT is the essence of the Pillar of Balance
What? Now you say the essence of Balance is non-involvement. Thank you for just confirming Ariel was not apart of the Balance then. If the Essence was non-interference and the whole time she is leading Kain blindly by the nose then she is not upholding the essence of Balance and letting him decide.


If she wanted to truly manipulate Kain, she would have not shown him his complete choices (the two different cards), or she could have lied about their meanings, or whatever.
Or, being truly a non-manipulative creature with selfless cause for Balance she would have told him about the possible third choice. She gives him two, he had three or more. That is not balance. She presents two extremes and leaves no middle ground. One extreme is so abhorrent she is sure he will not choose it, the other secures what she thinks will be her release from her fate being bound where she is. That is not Balanced at all.

The simple fact she 'forgets' to mention the Oracle is Moebius she has willfully deceived Kain, because Moebius played the Oracle before Nupraptor's Mental Blast, and thus she set Kain up for Moebius to use him.

BadGuysAlwaysWin
23rd Jul 2002, 21:03
argh, this is getting annoying... You are just repeating your statements, and responding to mine, and giving little or no game proof. No continuity ever uses events that occur CENTURIES in the future to explain why someone did something in the past. Perhaps if Kain KNEW already, or he had an INKLING, or even a drunken IDEA. Kain knew NOTHING about the Ancients, the Hylden, the creators of the Pillars, or anything else at the end of BO1. All he knew was that if he chose release, Nosgoth would be saved, and if he chose power, Nosgoth would be damned. That was IT. NOTHING ELSE. And he chose power. You can't say "he was right because it was a Hylden plot" because he couldn't even IMAGINE a Hylden plot, or even a Hylden. It was just non-existant.

And OMG! PERCY SLEDGE said that? Wow, that makes a WORLD of difference to me. How can I ever think about going against the words of PERCY SLEDGE. Come ON. We aren't talking about a guy, a guy, and a girl. We are talking about a FANTASY WORLD with MAGIC and VAMPIRES and MYSTICAL PILLARS. If it isn't against the RULES, then it's ok. There were (as far as we know) no rules against dating a co-Guardian, and so they dated.

And if you never had dreams with a lover, then you need to get a lover. An important part of a relationship is the sharing of secrets and dreams with the one you love, thus planning a future together. Perhaps they wanted kids, and a beautiful Nosgoth. Perhaps they dreamed of creating public education. Perhaps they wanted to make really really kinky gothic love while wearing blinc's boots (Umah? ^_^). Point is, those dreams were shattered when she died and Nupraptor went insane.

Kain was supposed to have been raised in the Circle. You do realize that, correct? As soon as Ariel died, they would have sought him out and raised him with the laws and justice of the Circle of Nine, and when he was ready who would fulfill the role of Guardian, which would be empty until then. But since they were ALL mad, they did not do this. Thus, Ariel NEEDED to stay and help guide the wayward Balance Guardian. She isn't "meddling", she is trying to fill the gap in Kain's education and upbringing, while directing him to do what is needed (it isn't personal petty vengeance because we SEE the Pillars become restored after each death. If it was nothing more than vengeance, there would be no restoration. And if she wants only to kill those who killed her, then why kill Nupraptor?)

And like I said, Pillars aren't there to just serve as physical embodiments of the Pillars. They are PEOPLE who make CHOICES. She saw no reason why she couldn't date Nupraptor because they were all devoted to the protection of Nosgoth. From what we have seen, apparently the Balance Guardian is only there as a "just in case" Guardian. In case it all hits the fan, wipe out the Circle and start again. We don't really know, all we know is that the final decision rests with the Balance Guardian.

Trust you? You have no more insight into this as me. I am just as correct as you in the realm of speculation. If future events are changed, you wouldn't know about it in the past. It's that simple. It's logic.

And btw, I don't change Malek. At all. I say that he is going contrary to what the Pillar of Conflict would intend. Rather than stopping conflict, he is shutting himself away. Thus he is indirectly hurting the world of Nosgoth. Thus supporting my theory. I explain quite clearly in the other thread, I just don't want to keep reposting my ideas. Feels like having to repeat myself over and over again. Which would be an insult to you.

And OBVIOUSLY Ariel stopped being the Guardian of Balance when she died. That is the BASIS of the games! She still wants to GUIDE him, to fix the evil caused by HER murder. She feels responsible because HER murder caused HER lover to poison the world. But, in the end, she CAN'T usurp Kain's authority, and knows that this is contrary to the will of Balance. The Guardian has to CHOOSE, he can't be FORCED.

Oh and... what? She was supposed to have told him that a dead soul-stealing former Vampire who was a part of Kain's distant future Vampire Imperial Army would travel back in time to kill his future self and to get sucked into a Vampiric Reaver, and if both this soul-reaving assassin and the future Kain survived then another choice would be possible? And all of this was supposed to happen thirty to five hundred years ago? Yeah... Think about that for a while. See maybe why she didn't tell him, or far more likely, SHE HAD NO IDEA. This is what I mean by you using events that are yet to occur to explain why people do what they do.

keepittrue
23rd Jul 2002, 21:30
Bad Guy, I have to agree with some of your stuff but the others I disagree with. I think NE was pointing out that Ariel loved someone within the circle, we all know there had to be at least a little favortism and with this brought the whole corruption to happen. If you are to keep balance than there cannot be favortism there has to be an equalibrium between good and evil. Ariel seems more concerened for herself than the balance of nosgoth and to me the main problem of these situations is because humans are just more weak minded. Remember the convo with Ariel and Raziel, she seemed terrified. If anything she is more concerened of her release than the balance of nosgoth. Too many ??s about Ariel to say she only wants good. The balance guardian is not there as a just in case guardian, there are there to keep everything equal, to keep balance within the circle and the land. Cant keep too much balance in the circle if she favors one over the other.

Non-existent
26th Jul 2002, 05:35
BadGuys:
Kain knew NOTHING about the Ancients, the Hylden, the creators of the Pillars, or anything else at the end of BO1. All he knew was that if he chose release, Nosgoth would be saved, and if he chose power, Nosgoth would be damned. That was IT. NOTHING ELSE. And he chose power. You can't say "he was right because it was a Hylden plot" because he couldn't even IMAGINE a Hylden plot, or even a Hylden.

I never said anything about Hylden, or Ancients. I would like to know where you got that. I did not even mention Ancients or Hylden. I did not mention anything about Kain knowing ahead of time.

The piece with Ariel is valid for perspective, which is what I used it as. I used it as perspective. It is valid, which you obviously do not like, because it does fit in with continuity as I am using it to further show the character of Ariel. I in no way attempted to Justify or excuse Kain's action. I was using it for what it was, more information on Ariel. You suddenly say I am talking of Kain, and again, you are claiming I am trying to Justify Kain's actions, I have never said he was Justified, and will happily admit that not one Character in the entire LoK series has been Justified.


And OMG! PERCY SLEDGE said that? Wow, that makes a WORLD of difference to me. How can I ever think about going against the words of PERCY SLEDGE. Come ON. We aren't talking about a guy, a guy, and a girl. We are talking about a FANTASY WORLD with MAGIC and VAMPIRES and MYSTICAL PILLARS. If it isn't against the RULES, then it's ok. There were (as far as we know) no rules against dating a co-Guardian, and so they dated.

And if you never had dreams with a lover, then you need to get a lover. An important part of a relationship is the sharing of secrets and dreams with the one you love, thus planning a future together. Perhaps they wanted kids, and a beautiful Nosgoth. Perhaps they dreamed of creating public education. Perhaps they wanted to make really really kinky gothic love while wearing blinc's boots (Umah? ^_^). Point is, those dreams were shattered when she died and Nupraptor went insane.

That you totally missed what I said proves you, and I do not mean to be insulting when I say this, but you have no idea what Balance is.

I used that to show why Ariel was not the perfect Balance Guardian you have been saying she is. (Actually, you said, "The desperation in Ariel's voice is proof that she was a perfect Pillar of Balance", last I looked desperation was not something you wanted in a decision maker, it tends to cloud judgement)

Because Ariel was in Love she risked Balance. Balance is like apathy, you cannot have strong feelings or desire either way or else the Balance will shift. Ariel had love for Nupraptor, later she had grief, pain, and the want to not be trapped for eternity until the Pillars were restored. These things do not a Balance Guardian make. Love can make you think, feel, and do crazy things.

Love is great, sure, but do not expect an objective view of the world when your best friend just lost thier love and is filled with grief.


Kain was supposed to have been raised in the Circle. You do realize that, correct? As soon as Ariel died, they would have sought him out and raised him with the laws and justice of the Circle of Nine, and when he was ready who would fulfill the role of Guardian, which would be empty until then. But since they were ALL mad, they did not do this. Thus, Ariel NEEDED to stay and help guide the wayward Balance Guardian. She isn't "meddling", she is trying to fill the gap in Kain's education and upbringing, while directing him to do what is needed (it isn't personal petty vengeance because we SEE the Pillars become restored after each death. If it was nothing more than vengeance, there would be no restoration. And if she wants only to kill those who killed her, then why kill Nupraptor?)

Where did it say that? Kain is supposed to be raised in the Circle, huh? First I heard of it. Please, provide the source.

Ariel did not need to stay to guide the 'wayward Balance Guardian'. She is Meddling. He is not wayward, you have admitted that he is corrupt, insane, completely off the wall. That is not wayward, and Ariel uses him. She is not trying to educate him in anything, she is using him. She says, "Go here, kill Nupraptor. Go Kill Malek. Go Kill Bane. Hey, Azimuth needs killing, get to chopping."


If it was nothing more than vengeance, there would be no restoration.
LOL, about the only thing we do know is this:
Ariel: Death in the Circle breathes life to the Pillars. For every Pillar, there is a token; only with these shall they be restored.
Nope, nothing about it having to be something besides vengence, in fact, it happens to say that as long as the Guardian is killed and their token returned the Pillar will be restored. So, yes, it could have only been about vengeance and it would have been fine, the Pillars only need the corrupt Guardian dead and the token restored. In fact, anyone able could have killed the Guardians and placed the token at the Pillar and the Pillar would be restored, apparently.


And like I said, Pillars aren't there to just serve as physical embodiments of the Pillars. They are PEOPLE who make CHOICES. She saw no reason why she couldn't date Nupraptor because they were all devoted to the protection of Nosgoth. From what we have seen, apparently the Balance Guardian is only there as a "just in case" Guardian. In case it all hits the fan, wipe out the Circle and start again. We don't really know, all we know is that the final decision rests with the Balance Guardian.
That is all you saw, a 'just in case guardian'? Hmmm, what I saw was a Guardian that makes sure all the other Pillars are in Balance and when they fall out of Balance the Balance Guardian goes and says, "hey, you need to do this and you need to stop doing this, restore Balance!"

As for not dating Nupraptor: Well, let us see, she now feels more strongly for Nupraptor than other memebers of the Circle, maybe she happens to hate one as much as she loves Nup, now that would be balanced, but there is no evidence of that, there is only evidence of her love for Nupraptor. Conclusion: Yes, she should have known that falling in love with Nupraptor would skew what she saw/thought/felt was balance.


Trust you? You have no more insight into this as me. I am just as correct as you in the realm of speculation. If future events are changed, you wouldn't know about it in the past. It's that simple. It's logic.
Oh, again, like in the other thread any suggestion I make is instantly discounted, but yours are standing accounts of correctness, because you apparently know how the Pillars are intended to work, so I get to be told, "you know not how they work, but here, let me tell you about how the Guardians are using the Pillars in a manner contrary to how their power is intended to be used, Nupraptor should heal the insane, because his making everyone insane was opposite what he should ", and I can go on, use that argument on yourself first before using it on me. If you want to say, "That is your theory, and I do not agree." Fine; however, do not tell me I do not know how the Pillars work while you go and then say how they work after just admitting we have no actual clue.

Back to Moebius:

Moebius himself said, "My role as Time Guardian affords me a certain level of omniscience, Raziel." (And yes, this is applicable, I am not trying to justify Kain and his choice, do not try to say I am, this is more perspective on the character of Moebius himself and is valid as evidence)

Now, it appears the Chronoplast chambers, built by Moeb himself, can see the future, whether or not that has changed because of SR2 is to be seen, but presumably he can, he likes to travel through time an awful lot. This level of Omniscience would, theoretically, allow him to see with all his travelling and searching and chambers, that he would turn evil, that Nupraptor would go Insane, etc. That he does nothing to preserve the world says he was probably corrupt all along, or CD has a surprise in which Good Moeb knew from the start everything would work out so he sat on his hands, which would be a depressing ending.

Now, I would think Moebius would know of future events and their way of changing history as his role is the Guardian of Time. I admit, I may be wrong, we all may be wrong, it may turn out that Nosgoth is actually a giant Doughnut that is consumed by Cletus The Slack Jawed Yokel from the Simpsons.

Oh, there is also this from SR2:
Raziel: Hardly impetuous; it took all the will I could muster. Has my refusal to kill Kain reshuffled your carefully stacked deck of cards?

[Moebius responds angrily.]

Moebius: You really think that you're exercising your free will, Raziel? You're simply Kain's servant -

This suggests that though history changed Moebius was aware of what would have happened had Kain died, this is suggested by the reshuffled bit. Not as reliable as Moebius saying it, but, well, his response seems somewhat measured. Though, there is this from the Dark Chronicle:

Just as the chamber's door slides open, Moebius rushes into the room, shaken and alarmed. He knows that Kain has survived what was supposed to be a fatal encounter with Raziel in the chapel, and that the course of history has therefore been changed.


And btw, I don't change Malek. At all. I say that he is going contrary to what the Pillar of Conflict would intend.
Again, note the use of you being able to tell me how the Pillars are intended for their Guardians to use their power and how the Pillars work but I cannot, because we do not know how the Pillars operate, thank you. As for my thinking you changed Malek. I will admit, mistake on my part, I read to fast, when, in the other thread you said hid himself away while violence erupted I did not realize you meant he should sally forth and prevent it, I thought you meant he should join in the battle.


And OBVIOUSLY Ariel stopped being the Guardian of Balance when she died. That is the BASIS of the games! She still wants to GUIDE him, to fix the evil caused by HER murder. She feels responsible because HER murder caused HER lover to poison the world. But, in the end, she CAN'T usurp Kain's authority, and knows that this is contrary to the will of Balance. The Guardian has to CHOOSE, he can't be FORCED.
I cannot agree that that is the Basis for the Games. I would say the Basis is a story of redemption for Kain/Raziel, a story which they eventually have to get through by seeing through all the other people who want to use them and right their destinies from their corrupted courses. A course that whether or not Ariel is acting out of Altruism is one she cannot accurately guide them on.

Sure, she wants to guide him, that is not the problem, the problem is why she wants to guide him. You said it yourself, she wants to fix the Evil that caused her murder. The question for Ariel is one of motive. Is she being objective, calm, examining the possibilities and situation like she should if she wants Balance corrected? Or is she desperate, in grief-filled, and looking for a quick fix?

No, she cannot FORCE Kain, but she can influence, and the problem is is whether or not she is influencing for herself and her grief or for the Balance. I have already stated that with Ariel, her Love, and now her terrible position at the Pillars she is not the source one should look to for guidance.


Oh and... what? She was supposed to have told him that a dead soul-stealing former Vampire who was a part of Kain's distant future Vampire Imperial Army would travel back in time to kill his future self and to get sucked into a Vampiric Reaver, and if both this soul-reaving assassin and the future Kain survived then another choice would be possible? And all of this was supposed to happen thirty to five hundred years ago? Yeah... Think about that for a while. See maybe why she didn't tell him, or far more likely, SHE HAD NO IDEA. This is what I mean by you using events that are yet to occur to explain why people do what they do.

I agree, she probably does not know a thing about Raz, why? Because so far, that we know of, Raz never once visited her before she met Kain.

Jeez, I talk of her neglecting to speak of Moebius and you are making it sound like I said she was what Moebius was/is, of limited Omniscience. I never said that; however, there are things about the Circle, the State of Nosgoth, and her own situation she does know, alot more than she told. One thing she did know, she did know about Moeb, and being the Balance Guardian and ex-Guardian/Member of the Circle she probably knew of more things Kain could have done but Kill himself or build damn Nosgoth. I never said she knew about the same third option Kain is grasping at now, I suggested she might know of a possible third option. Notice, she never questions the options, or let's Kain, she says Choose one and all is well, Choose the other and damn the world. Again, she is not balanced.

Oh, as for the Paradoxes being needed, not necessarily the Reaver, let me present this, from SR2 itself:
Kain: ...a paradox is created, a temporal distortion powerful enough to
derail history. This suggests that any Paradox that is powerful enough will derail history, so the Soul Reaver does not seem to be required.

Anyways, I must apologize for the length, I like to use quote boxes to clearly show what I am addressing, and it does tend to add a bit to the post.

keepittrue
27th Jul 2002, 06:59
Kain:

... and profoundly ingrained, Raziel.
You must understand, our presence here doesn't alter history.
You and I meet here because we are compelled to - we have always met here.
History is irredeemable.
Drop a stone into a rushing river - the current simple courses around it and flows on as if the obstruction were never there.
You and I are pebbles, Raziel, and have even less hope of disrupting the time-stream.
The continuum of history is simply too strong, too resilient.

Except... then how do we explain William, here?
Kain gestures toward William's funereal effigy, and turns to face the sarcophagus.

Kain:

The beloved boy-king turned tyrant.
He lifts the Soul Reaver from the casket, and turns back to Raziel, flourishing the sword.

Kain:

In my youth, I witnessed William's rise to power, and his transformation into the 'Nemesis' who laid waste to Nosgoth.
Raziel: (steely)

Keep your distance, Kain.
Kain walks slowly forward, Reaver in hand, as he speaks.

Kain:

Years later, I stumble upon a chance to journey back in history, unaware that the entire affair has been orchestrated by Moebius.
In my wisdom, I seize this opportunity to murder the young king before he can ravage Nosgoth...
... and thereby provide the catalyst Moebius needs to ignite a genocidal war against our race.
Raziel grows more agitated as Kain advances.

Raziel:

I warn you - no further!
Kain continues, his voice taking on a greater sense of urgency.

Kain:

This one reckless act unravels the skein of history.
The Nemesis never becomes the Nemesis; William dies a martyred saint. I, the vampire assassin, become the author of my own species' destruction. And Moebius profits from it all.
I destroyed a tyrant only to create one far worse.
Kain gestures toward the stained glass window, which depicts a lionized William and a demonized Kain in combat, both armed with the Soul Reaver.

Kain:

But how can it be so? How, if history is immutable?
Kain advances slowly on Raziel, gripping the Soul Reaver. As he approaches, the feeling of displacement intensifies.

Kain:

The answer is here in this room, Raziel.
Moebius propelled William and me together - but ensured first that we were both armed with the Soul Reaver.

The Reaver is the key.
Two incarnations of the blade meet in time and space... a paradox is created, a temporal distortion powerful enough to derail history.
As Kain takes a final step toward Raziel, the surrounding distortion reaches it's peak, and the wraith-blade begins to manifest of its own will. Raziel reacts in alarm.

Raziel:

Is this your sorcery?
Kain:

Not mine, Raziel - yours.
You have nothing to fear from me, Raziel.
You hold all the cards.


UUhh Actually NE the Reaver/Raziel is needed to create a paradox.

warpsavant
27th Jul 2002, 07:32
Kain: from Sr2
In my youth, I witnessed William's rise to power, and his transformation into the 'Nemesis' who laid waste to Nosgoth.
Raziel: (steely)

Kain : from BO
Ironic. By going back in time, and altering the past, you turned William the Just into the Nemesis.

Moebius
Aye - you have seen my plan, vampire, as I have seen your destiny. The future says you die!






Willy's transformation was a result of a temporal distortion/ paradox, since it was Moebius who handed the Reaver over to Willy. Isnt it?

keepittrue
27th Jul 2002, 09:51
Warp what do you mean. I think the Soul Reaver inflicted William with the same madness as the soul trapped inside(Raziel). I dont think a paradox happened and then he transformed. I think Kain was refering to William the JUST turning into THE Nemisis. Kinda like if you got the Soul Reaver than the SR would actually inflict you with its madness turning you into THE mad warp or whatever. No paradox needed for someone or something to make you mad.

Kain:

The answer is here in this room, Raziel.
Moebius propelled William and me together - but ensured first that we were both armed with the Soul Reaver.

The Reaver is the key.
Two incarnations of the blade meet in time and space... a paradox is created, a temporal distortion powerful enough to derail history.
As Kain takes a final step toward Raziel, the surrounding distortion reaches it's peak, and the wraith-blade begins to manifest of its own will. Raziel reacts in alarm.

See, 2 Reavers is needed.
Maybe something else can cause a paradox, but not strong enough to derail history.

Non-existent
27th Jul 2002, 21:02
keep: No, I do not believe the Reaver is the only thing that can alter history. The Reaver alone being turned is enough evidence to show that history can be altered without two forms of the Reaver, all that is needed is a Paradox that creates a strong enough temporal distortion to derail history, without having the irritant expelled of course.

An example: Raziel goes out and kills his parents before his human self was born (or whatever he is if he is in fact related to the Ancients already), this creates a Paradox in which he was not born so he cannot exist to kill his parents, and creates a loop, history would expell Raziel then before he can kill his family because it is a Fatal Paradox, history cannot be changed in this instance. On the other hand, two objects composed of the same matter meet in the same time and space and a Paradox is created that allows history to be altered without forcing it to be fatal. Raziel never becoming the Reaver is such a Paradox, if he never becomes the Reaver then the Nemesis is, presumably, never killed by Kain because a Paradox cannot be created of sufficient temporal distortion to alter history, this would border on a Fatal Paradox, unless history can compensate with a late/earlier event.

CD has a flaw in the story if only the Reavers can alter history when they meet in time and space since the very act of the Reaver becoming the Soul Reaver which would then alter history afterwards is a History Altering event in itself, since history would need to be altered no matter what to allow Raziel to go back in time to become the Reaver. Even if the original event did not involve Vampire Raz at all. (Basically, the Soul Reaver could not become and allow Raz to earlier be a vampire unless history was altered previously without the Reaver, because if history originally existed without the Reaver in the past then having it suddenly appear drastically shapes how history forms from that point on)


No paradox needed for someone or something to make you mad.
Yes, but the act of making William mad is history altering if it is what changed him into the Nemesis. If William was destined to be sane and just all along and Moeb changes that by just handing him the Reaver then Moeb altered history without two Reavers. The problem is whether or not Willy woulda become the Nemesis or not without interference. If so then Moeb did not alter history. If not then Moeb did without two Reavers meeting in time and space, so he had to use a seperate Paradox.

Anyways, the Reaver, as of now, seems to be a history altering Paradox in itself unless CD manages to craft an airtight story that shows how it can originate without altering history.

So no, two Reavers are not necessary, they are just the easiest, and most likely safest/most-reliable means. Kain says it himself, "a paradox is created, a temporal distortion powerful enough to derail history." He never says that only two Reaver can create such a Paradox, that only one is created by the Reavers meeting that can change history. The suggestion here, and a very strong one at that, is that the Key to changing history is to create a Paradox that is not Fatal so that history can be altered.

Reaper007
28th Jul 2002, 20:37
i only read the first post.

1) knowledge is power(Kain has a lot of knowledge)
2) power leads to corruption(kain is pretty corrupt)
3) corruption leads to madness(in SR3 maybe)
4) madness to complete insanity(there is a difference between madness and insanity/maybe in SR3 when all his work is being undone???)
5) insanity to death(we will have to wait and see.)

Reaper007

Azuriel
28th Jul 2002, 20:42
Originally posted by Reaper007
i only read the first post.

1) knowledge is power(Kain has a lot of knowledge)
2) power leads to corruption(kain is pretty corrupt)
3) corruption leads to madness(in SR3 maybe)
4) madness to complete insanity(there is a difference between madness and insanity/maybe in SR3 when all his work is being undone???)
5) insanity to death(we will have to wait and see.)

Reaper007

1. ok
2. kain is not corrupt. he`s not serving anyone. he`s just selfish
3. that was aimed at the pillar guardians, methinks. they went mad after being corrupted.
4. no idea
5 cute