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Glucolisis
21st Jul 2002, 05:09
Hi everybody. I`ve been away for a Looooooooooong time so I don`t know if this has been talked before.

the question is:

when did vorador make Kain`s army??

Chris said that Vorador was weak because of the events in Bo1 and Vorador said in bo2 that he couldn`t make a new army because he is too weak.

So, when was he strong enough to make an army for Kain??

Umah Bloodomen
21st Jul 2002, 05:19
I don't think that had anything to do with Kain's army. It had to do with making more vampires. (Siring).

Here's the dialogue (Compliments of Ardeth's site) :)




Vorador:
It serves. But time is short. The Sarafan's power grows by the day. Soon our every haven will be destroyed. We are facing extinction once again.

Kain:
They thought once before they had destroyed us, yet you proved them wrong. You created a new race - something I could never do - and from that race, I had my army.
Vordor bends half-imploringly to Kain.


Vorador:
Now we are divided -
Kain also bows slightly, then sharply straightens.

Kain:
- and dying. Then rouse yourself. Make more of our kind.

Vorador:
It takes time and energy to create a vampire. I have not the strength. No, as Umah told you, we must kill the Sarafan Lord. When he is dead, their power will crumble.
You have come far already, Kain, and proven to be our greatest ally. We must plan our attack.

I don't think that Vorador created an army specifically just for Kain. He merely reproduced the vampire species and from that Kain dubbed himself an army.

EDIT Amy said something about Vorador being a primitive human who existed long before the events of BO & SR. I am sure he had plenty of time to sire, rest, and sire some more. :p

Glucolisis
21st Jul 2002, 05:40
At the end of BO1, Kain was the LAST vampire. In Bo2 we can see a lot of vamps, all of them created by Vorador, a time after the destuction of the pillar(Bo1`s end).

After Vorador`s resurrection he was too weak to create vampires. That was the BIG weaknes we saw in Bo2 (Chris@Crystal confirmed that).

So, when did he gave birth to all those vamps???


My idea is that he did that before his first death.

Umah Bloodomen
21st Jul 2002, 05:51
So how is this?

Vorador wad sired by Janos
Vorador sires his first brood (say within the 200 years of his own sire)
Vorador takes a hiatus from siring (lack of strength) for 200 years.
Vorador creates a new brood
New brood is wiped out (BO1)
Vorador dies (supposedly)
Vorador comes back (how is unknown) creates more vampires (not necessarily right away...when his strength returned)
Vorador takes another hiatus
BO2 Occurs.

He would've had to have done it soon after the events of BO1 for Kain to rise to the power he did. It was a 400 year break from BO1 to BO2 (when Kain wakes up).

In the opening FMV of BO2, Vorador is seen overlooking the map with Kain. I would presume this was before his next sire hiatus seeing thats when he claims he is weak. This would be within the first 200 years post BO1. This would've had to have been the last time he sired seeing the vampire numbers dwindled off in the second half of those 400 years (the 200 year slumber of Kain). Hence why I believe that was another sire hiatus of Vorador.

EDIT I am going to call this bluff of yours as well. 1. If Vorador didn't create vampires when he came back, and Kain couldn't, who did? Vorador is Umah's sire. Obviously there is evidence of Vorador being able to do so.

Time Streamer
21st Jul 2002, 08:59
And Umah, obviously being the youngest of Vorador's brood, is created during the Kain's hibernation as well the few others since Kain doesn't know them.

Glucolisis
21st Jul 2002, 20:55
Thanks for your answer Umah!!
Now I understand :)

but what is: hiatus?

Azuriel
21st Jul 2002, 20:59
check your dictionary

Umah Bloodomen
21st Jul 2002, 21:14
Main Entry: hi·a·tus
Pronunciation: hI-'A-t&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, from hiare to yawn —more at YAWN
Date: 1563

1 a : a break in or as if in a material object : GAP <the hiatus between the theory and the practice of the party —J. G. Colton>
b : a gap or passage in an anatomical part or organ

2 a : an interruption in time or continuity : BREAK b : the occurrence of two vowel sounds without pause or intervening consonantal sound

Glad to help! It's my pleasure as always. ;)

warpsavant
21st Jul 2002, 21:29
So Vorador only gets busy every 200 yrs or so? I guess that makes sense considering the number of vampires he must've created. I would have to think that he has always sired this way then, even in Nosgoth's early past.

I mean, all the vamps in Sr2 that are dead, pretty much have the same characteristics, leading me to think they could've been sired at the same time. And there looks to be only 2 generations of Vampires in BO2, pre battle of Meridian and Post.

Umah Bloodomen
21st Jul 2002, 21:35
I estimated the every 200 years for the following reasons:

1. It coincides with the timeline

2. I think Vorador doesn't go off overpopulating, so his children can't overpopulate and eventually end up running out of food and die off.

3. It gives Vorador sufficient time to not become too weak to defend himself and survive and to take a much needed break.


But I do agree that now I re-read this, it does make a lot of sense regarding Vorador's (and perhaps vampires in general) reproduction habits.

Quick, get me a show on the Discovery Channel. I may be on to something. :p

warpsavant
21st Jul 2002, 21:54
I'll see what I can do. :p

I think that Vorador is the only one with the power to sire. I dont think other vampires can sire. If it takes 200 yrs for Vorador to recouperate, then I would have to say that a vampire would have to be very old before it could sire in the first place.

Because if other vampires could sire, you wouldn't need Vorador. When Vorador was too weak, some other vampire could've sired more of their kind, but that's not how it was.

Or maybe other vampires can sire, but they just dont. Outta respect for Vorador, or fear possibly.

Umah Bloodomen
21st Jul 2002, 22:07
Originally posted by warpsavant
I'll see what I can do. :p

I think that Vorador is the only one with the power to sire. I dont think other vampires can sire. If it takes 200 yrs for Vorador to recouperate, then I would have to say that a vampire would have to be very old before it could sire in the first place.

Because if other vampires could sire, you wouldn't need Vorador. When Vorador was too weak, some other vampire could've sired more of their kind, but that's not how it was.

Or maybe other vampires can sire, but they just dont. Outta respect for Vorador, or fear possibly.

I will agree with this notion, Warp. It only stands to reason that Vorador is the only one able to sire. Everyone seems so concerned with him doing it, which implies that it is true.

Another thing, if the other vampires could sire I am sure that they would. I mean look at Kain, he wants to create new vampires and can't. I am sure if Marcus and Faustus could do it, they would have to further their own agendas. I think there would be a lot of power hungry, vampire reproducing menaces out in the world.

Naturally I would assume that someone out there would want to surpass the power of the ancient Vorador. (Kain is a good example of this). On another note, I would assume that the 200 year break from reproducing would follow a similar length in breeding time. 200 years, he sires - 200 years off. It makes sense. I don't think he goes overboard necessarily, but makes enough to ensure the species is preserved and at the top of the food chain.

Azrael
22nd Jul 2002, 03:51
I think all vampires can sire by the original methods, less Kain (because he's not 100% vamp), just think how Raz & company did their clans:

Theory:
They made the first "wave" of vamps (maybe 20-30) then those first made vamps made the second "wave" of vamps, and so on...

And that didn't take to long to they progreed, then just look at the SR1 manual (page 7):

...The destruction of the major human was inevitable. Whithin a hundred years humanity had been thoroughly domesticated...

warpsavant
22nd Jul 2002, 18:45
But thats different, cause Vorador is dead, as he aint around, so I assume he is dead. So then all bets are off. In all probability, Vorador is the only one WHO KNOWS how to sire.

Kain and his children are different. Kain could not create "Legions" he could only create 6 Vampires, and even when he did that the last few were pathetic wretches. So the Lts HAD TO reproduce, simply because KAIN could not.

keepittrue
22nd Jul 2002, 19:26
Well, I dont think Vorador reproduced the same in BO2 as he did in BO1. My memory is a little hazy but I think Amy stated in Warps interview that Vorador reproduce the more traditional way. Few more reasons why but I just dont think he reproduced the same, however it is highly likely that he did reproduce the same way but for some reason I just have a feeling he did not. Maybe its the attitude change or the change in styles in gameplay and how V was in BO1 and BO2. I dont know but for some reason I just dont think he reproduced the same way.

Non-existent
22nd Jul 2002, 20:38
Umah:
So how is this?

Vorador wad sired by Janos
Vorador sires his first brood (say within the 200 years of his own sire)
Vorador takes a hiatus from siring (lack of strength) for 200 years.
Vorador creates a new brood
New brood is wiped out (BO1)
Vorador dies (supposedly)
Vorador comes back (how is unknown) creates more vampires (not necessarily right away...when his strength returned)
Vorador takes another hiatus
BO2 Occurs.


Does not fly, if you are suggesting Vorador was the only vampire to sire others throughout Nosgoth.

First off, all we know is that Janos was the last of the Ancients, and that he sired Vorador. What we do not know is: Exactly how many Ancients were still around when Janos turned Vorador, how Janos figured out how to turn Vorador to begin with, whether or not Janos turned any others besides Vorador (no clue is given about this, Vorador is claimed to be the oldest vampire in BO1, sure, but the story never confirms he was the first human turned or not, just oldest living at the time), and most importantly we have no clue whether or not other Ancients also turned other humans. It would be very conceivable that other Ancients did, and that Janos created but the one, thus causing Janos to outlive the others (him not wasting strength on constantly propagating vampirism while the others sire constantly and waste away).

Now, according to BO1, in some sections that is, Vorador is called the father of Vampires, but then again, BO1 is a shambles when it comes to reliable information, ask Warp, the strat guide cannot even begin to agree on how many guardians Vorador killed. Besides, 'Father of Vampires' can just be an honorary title, like the 'Father of Modern Literature', etc. Such a title is often not true, just that the person gained the most respect/acclaim early on in the movement.

Mostly why I am against Vorador being the true father of vampires is the fact that the LoK series is already beginning to suffer from cheesiness that moves it from thought provoking/ground breaking to cookie cutter formulae that will pump out another sequel. Seriously, Janos was unneccesary in BO2, no matter if it sheds more light on the Hylden/Ancient War and entanglement; the history of the Hylden and Ancients could have been shed without Janos, in fact, it would've been much better to thicken the plot with a new Ancient. It looks like the Elder is going to show up, again (seriously, as much as I like Tony Jay's voice acting the octopus on steroids needs a definite resolution soon, but with the weapons like the one under Meridian, does not look to happen) ol' squid face is just getting ridiculous, it is like the GI Joe episodes where everything comes back to Cobra Commander. The series needs to introduce new menaces or all Nosgoth will become is Valhalla where its all the same faces battling it out each day.


Umah: I am sure if Marcus and Faustus could do it, they would have to further their own agendas. I think there would be a lot of power hungry, vampire reproducing menaces out in the world.

Not true. You forget that Macrus, Faustus and Sebastian, by their very nature are untrusting and jealous of power as well. They would not risk creating a score of progeny that may one day unseat them through direct usurpation or by gaining the favor of the SL. Then there is the fact that as much as they like to claim they are independent the SL owns and controls them, so if the SL says to them, keep the vamp pop low and do not add to it they will not add to it out of fear.

Those who desire power will only give it to those they believe they can control. Vampires, by their nature, are quite difficult to control, so those who want power will be less likely to try. Kain was willing because he is beyond arrogant and knows he has the power to back it, even in BO2 at his weakest he was much more powerful than any thought he could be (Umah was surprised he could even walk so soon after waking). Marcus, Sebastian and Faustus on the other hand, they were sniveling rats that were used because they were not strong enough to contest the SL directly, or even Kain directly, and only did so when they thought him weak, they preferred to leave direct confrontation for when they believed themselves to have the upperhand, and still used cowardly tactics to try to give themselves the edge. Such beings would never risk creating off spring that might one day turn against them.

keepittrue
22nd Jul 2002, 21:10
keepittrue applauds, very good.

Azrael
22nd Jul 2002, 21:39
:eek: WOW :eek: , good thought Non, i like the final part...

Non-existent
22nd Jul 2002, 23:09
keep/Azra: Thanks for the compliments.

To expound on the subject of Marcus, Sebastian, and Faustus and why they would not create other vampires:

(Note: This is very much a rambling section and may not flow well, just producing some thoughts)

Marcus:
Stay back! You cannot win! The bishop will tell you nothing while he
remains under my power and you will never catch me.
Notice his gift. He controls others absolutely by subverting their will. This seems to also indicate a desire for as much control as possible or else why would his gift have become as powerful as it was. Marcus would not want to create other vampires that might inherit his ability and possibly become so powerful with it they could control him. Also, why have a dozen potential back-stabbers when you can have a dozen loyal bodyguards, who would set themselves on fire and do everything they can to safe guard you? Marcus is the king he imagines himself to be when he is surrounded by his living puppets, something he cannot get if he creates vampires. Notice Marcus runs early on, intent on finding the Bishop over confronting Kain directly.

(Anyone notice that Marcus could be said to have a Hive Mind, much like Zephon, or that Magnus was water resistant much like Rahab, or Sebastian was a power house like Dumah?)

Sebastian: Classic case of the cowardly, he betrays Kain and the other vampires to the SL rather than any other course of action. He envied Kain his power, and wanted to be a king like Kain. With the SL he is still not king, but then again, he gets to slaughter humans, boss around Serafan, and basically act all around tough. No doubt he fears other vampires, as he would not even face newly awakened Kain (despite Sebastian saying that he did not fight Kain because he had to be somewhere else, let's face it, that is a blantant lie because he had the time to have that conversation with Kain, killing Kain in that state would not have been much more time consuming). He only faces Kain when ordered by the SL to guard the Nexus Stone. This is not a vampire who is going to trust even his own offspring following him, especially when together they might overthrow him, or just one might go to the SL with a fabrication to have him ousted.

Faustus:
What is our kind? In serving the Sarafan I have protection. I have
power and who better to hunt down a vampire than a more powerful vampire. History is written by the winners, Kain, that is my kind.


Protection is the key there. Faustus fears the Serafan definitely and Vampires presumably, but with the SL he gets some degree of power over others, and only has to fear the vampires, which, since he hangs around the Serafan and is probably older, and thus more powerful than the average vampire in the Cabal, means he has little to fear there. Faustus, wanting to be a winner, would not risk losing to another vampire, so he would not risk creating his own enemy.


There is also this curious quote from Umah (the one in BO2 that is):

Peasant: Wait! Tell Umah that I helped you, please. She promised the Dark Gift if I did as she asked. You'll tell her, won't you?

Unless Umah meant Vorador then maybe other vampires can sire vampires, but again, the energy required would limit the numbers to insignificant in the face of the Serafan threat. Or it may mean Umah was lying, and so was Vorador when he promised the Bishop, something to think about.

As to why Vorador would create, but not other Cabal members (assuming the ability to turn humans is shared): Well, if age is significant, then, it appears no Cabal member is old enough to sire vampires, or maybe not in the numbers Vorador can. Umah did not know Kain personally, no other vampires appeared to, in fact, they seemed to hold Kain in awe, as if he was Legend and not true. The only vampires (besides Vorador, Kain, and Janos) that are known for sure to be over 200 years of age are Faustus, Marcus, Sebastian, and Magnus (but then again, no telling how old the Eternal prison made him, and no telling if turning is possible in those time warped walls).

Transylvanians:
Let's do the time-warp again.
Narrator:
It's just a jump to the left.
All:
And then a step to the right.
Narrator:
With your hands on your hips.

Ummm, anyways, other Cabal members might not have had the appropriate age to give them the energy required to turn a human successfully and live. This might necessitate Vorador setting some guidelines on who can and cannot turn others. Then there is the risk of betrayal, Vorador might only allow himself to turn humans because he is a better judge of character. (Most likely it is the age thing, no vampire in the cabal currently powerful enough to successfully turn a human and survive the process).

Then there is motivation. Vorador is not looking for an army to gain him power, he is looking for a society, or better yet family if you will. A family with rules, sure, but a family that while he is the head of it he is not the absolute ruler of it. He appears to encourage independence in his progeny. He makes it clear Kain is not the boss but that Kain is in no way subject to his (Vorador's) will either.

Of course, not knowing the true limitations this is speculation. I am currently basing my speculation that all vampires can turn humans based on BO1 and SR2, in that there was such a number of vampires shown during the purges that it is highly doubtful Vorador created them all, even given millenia to do it. This means that either other Ancients created vampires who shared Vorador's ability to spread the blood curse, or Vorador is the only direct Ancient descended but his offspring can turn others as well (or else the sheer numbers seen staked in SR2, and the number faced in BO1 makes the whole time and energy thing suspicious if only Vorador can turn humans).

Then there is BO1, sketchy to use it, but here goes: When Kain shows up in Vorador's Mansion. Vorador knows Kain was not turned by him, but shows no surprise at all. This indicates, quite heavily, that there were other vampires capable of spreading vampirism. Vorador always seemed to be about restraint when it came to increasing vampire numbers and thus increasing the risk to all vampires. (note: I bolded that because it was the last thing I thought of before typing it in, and it fit best in this section)

Then there is Kain. Obviously Kain desires power and control, and is more than confident that he can enforce his decisions. That he prefers vampires over humans shows he distrusts humans, or he looks at them as too low and cowardly a life form (latter much more likely). That he concedes the right for Vorador to raise the vampire army, and believes himself to be incapable indicates he has no clue how different from other vampires he is. He says he could never raise a vampire army like Vorador did, which is true, because Kain is an altogether different form of vampire, requiring a new method if raising, which is shared (if not precisely the same then in a modified form) by Raziel and his brothers.

With a noblemen's mentality, his upbringing in Coorhagen, from the sounds of it a court where only the strongest rulers survive, he would most likely feel right at home with followers who were potential threats. Then there is no doubt a natural charisma a good leader must have along with sharp wits. Kain risks little in having six potential threats at his side, no doubt he would be most comfortable in such a situation, other vampires would probably not feel the same way. Which would be why Kain would encourage the raising of vampires and their armies to further the world he can best survive in.

Azrael
23rd Jul 2002, 00:04
Hmm, that's a good thought on vampire creation in LoK series, but i don't think that age is somehow required, but like i stated before, if its age required to create a vamp so it was impossible to the Lieutenents to create other vamps, i say this because im not seing Kain and his Lieutenants hiding for 200 years to create their offspring... i think they started to create a few days since they were turned into vamps(or ressurect if you prefer).

And about the traitor vamps... if you notice they only attack Kain directly at first (thinking that he should be still very weak to confront them), but when they see that he's not that weak, they try to kill him at distance



Posted by Non-existent:
...Kain risks little in having six potential threats at his side, no doubt he would be most comfortable in such a situation, other vampires would probably not feel the same way...

I don't think that he risks to much, because they are afraid of him (probably because he's teir sire, or just too old that they wouldn't have any chance to defeat him, or just simply they fear the Soul Reaver (as it looks he never separates from it)), and they get more fear of him when he casts Raziel into the Abyss (we see that by their devolution(thats a good reason for that) and by their retreat into the depths of their territories)...Well thats my thoughts!


And again, nice theory http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

Non-existent
23rd Jul 2002, 00:38
Azrael:
but i don't think that age is somehow required, but like i stated before, if its age required to create a vamp so it was impossible to the Lieutenents to create other vamps, i say this because im not seing Kain and his Lieutenants hiding for 200 years to create their offspring

Actually, the process of turning a vampire for Kain and his Lieutenants might not have the age limitation that Vorador and his ilk suffer from. It is not known if vampires created from Kain take any energy on the part of the creator or not (though the creation of Raz and the Brothers did take some in the form of Kain's soul that might have been to make the Raz and the Brothers unique in comparison to the vampires they themselves would create).

According to Vorador it took time and energy to create a vampire, neither of which he had during BO2. Kain may only suffer from the energy limitation when trying to make a vampire of greater than average strength/abilities (hence Raz and the Brothers took a portion of Kain's soul, leaving each newly created a little less powerful with Melchiah the weakest, but Raz and Co. might have started turning vamps right away, and those vamps, not taking pieces of the brothers souls or less, possbily, which would make the common vampire weaker, but easier to spread the plague of vampires throughout Nosgoth).

(The time limitation seems to hold true no matter what for the newly created vampire to gain in strength and control of their new forms)

Note: The reason I cannot tell whether the brothers clans used pieces of the Brothers soul is because of the ambiguity in SR itself. In the case of the brothers we know Kain used a piece of his soul to raise the brothers, but in the game (manual) we are told the vampires are created by reanimating a corpse with a soul from the abyss. Whether the common vampire in SR is made by using a portion of the creator's soul or not, like in Kain's raising of his lieutenants is unknown. With the amount of vampires faced in SR it has to be presumed that the vampires take no portion of the creator's soul to be turned, it takes very little, or the soul happens to replenish itself, or the lieutenants do not suffer Kain's limitation of using a portion of their soul but they cannot make vampires any stronger than the apparent norm. (This would limit creation of vampires in any case to those who can find souls and place them into bodies, which may take some degree of raw strength as well, leaving lesser vampires out)

The question is left in SR whether or not only the lieutenants could raise others. This is in question from the scores of Dumahim that happen to litter the landscape of Nosgoth when Dumah had been quite incapable of spreading his kind for quite a few centuries, and the comparable numbers of the other clans was about the same.

keepittrue
23rd Jul 2002, 02:11
Very nice, I do like that explanation.
The way Kain and his liutenants reproduced were different from Vorador, Amy has already stated that.
I agree with NE about Vorador. I do think something is wrong with V being weak after making Vampires, and NE pointed out something real good when he said V knew he did not create Kain but was not surprised he was a vamp so therefore other vamps can make vamps.

warpsavant
23rd Jul 2002, 02:31
Maybe they can, but since you never see any, it is plausible that they can not. Even if they could I think they wouldnt out fear of being usurped.

I think the biggest difference between Kain/Vorador is the fact that it would appear that Vorador turns living humans (the peasant and the Bishop are examples) but Kain raised corpses, and in the Garden of the Dead (or whatever it is), Raziel mentions Melchiahs brood recruiting fledglings from corpses.

Non-existent
23rd Jul 2002, 02:58
warp: Just because you do not see them turn humans into vamps it is plausible they cannot, true, but at the same time, it is just as plausible they can. Lack of evidence in both directions is what we have. Of course, it is mainly BO1 and SR2 with their number of vampires and the fact of Kain being a vampire and Vorador not being at all surprised that is causing this contradictory evidence.

All we know for sure: At the end of BO1 the only one capable of creating vampires was Vorador (presumably his ressurection left him as powerful as before). During BO2 Vorador is the only one in the Cabal credited with raising any vampires. Vampires in BO1 seemed to spawn from more than Vorador's efforts (given the Vorador recognition factor).

Let us not forget this, Kain says Vorador raised his army, yes, but all that could mean is that Vorador started the chain, and helped create the numbers, but Vorador was the Origin of the army. Because Kain's exact words are, "You created a new race, something I could never do, and from that race I raised my army". The only suggestion that Vorador is the only one is when he says, "it takes time and energy to make a vampire and I have not the strength". That is the only suggestion that he is the only one, and it is not that strong of a suggestion because it says he has not the strength, indicating that others could should they become powerful enough. His creation of a new race seems to suggest propagation beyond just himself turning humans.

Actually, I suggested only Faustus, Sebastian, and Marcus would not create others from either fear of being displaced by their 'children' or fear of the SL's retribution if he told them not to.

The rest of the Cabal comes down to age, Vorador telling them to keep their teeth in their mouth, or both.

I always figured Vorador and his kind turned living humans, being the main difference between Kain and Vorador is their state of undeath. Vorador and his kind go from Life to Unlife, Kain and his kind go from Death to Undeath (which is just Unlife with a different word).

keepittrue
23rd Jul 2002, 03:16
I def agree with the last part NE. But in BO2 I believe V was the one who made all the other Vampires unless there are 2 races which I doubt. I think V made all the Vamps we see and the ones Kain used for his army in BO2 and postBO2. Something is starting to tell me CD may have a little bit of nonaccuracy when it comes to how Vamps are made and how V made them in BO1 and BO2.

I dont agree with that statement made Warp if you are refering to BO1, I do agree if you mean BO2.

Non-existent
23rd Jul 2002, 05:38
keep: I would agree that during BO2 Vorador was the only one to create any vampires, but again, I think that might be because of the whole strength thing, which a young vampire would not have. If others could have it may have been through direct orders not to or fear of the consequence (in the case of the three traitors). Either way I am saying that Vorador is not responible for all the vampires pre-BO2 timeline.

As for CD having too many contradictions... yeah. Seems kinda like DC's "Crisis on Infinite Earths" thing, where they had so many differing, contradictory stories that did not follow continuity (because DC said anything that is against continuity is on a parallel world, so the story can be told but not contradict) that people could not longer find out what was continuity and what was not. Eventually DC destroyed all the worlds and said, "This is what is true, forget everything else, forget the infinite parallel worlds" or something.

BO1 may need to be remade if for no other reason than to clean up these ambiguities, same with SR1.

warpsavant
23rd Jul 2002, 06:05
Before Bo2 who would be old enough to make vampires?

Chances are Vorador was the only one powerfull enough. It looks like Jnaos was alone for thousands of years, waiting alone, so lonely and alone, waiting for you. He was probably the last "blue" around and made Vorador and only Vorador. (he may have made someone else, but we haven't seen 'em) Since Vorador is already an ancient vampire when we see him in SR2 (what makes you ancient? 1000 yrs? 2000 yrs?) Either way this puts Voradors turning in the time period when Janos was alone, all alone, waiting.

The Brethren and their brood may have been able to turn humans into vampires using some version of the ol traditional method Vorador used, but when Raz gets out of the Abyss Melchiah's brood appeard to be using corpses.

I do not think anyone else is making vampires other than Vorador at any time up until Kain raises the Sarafan. Either they aint old enough, they are chicken, or don't know how.

I understand there isnt enough evidence but I like thinkin V is the only one making vamps and thats what I'm thinking.

Non-existent
23rd Jul 2002, 19:49
warp: See, the Vorador Recognition Factor is what convinces me that Vorador was not the only one making vamps before and during BO1's time period. He sees Kain, he knows he did not create Kain, he is unsurprised to see a young vampire at his home. Only conclusion that can be drawn is that during BO1, at least, other vampires were making more vampires, or Vorador would have been quite shocked to see a vampire that did not originate from himself.

warpsavant
23rd Jul 2002, 20:12
IMO Voradors recoginition factor is insignificant, because the Chess match wich was deleted at the last minute is where Vorador actually met Kain, what is in the game is kinda of odd cause the chess game was cut. Chances are Vorador knew off Kain well before Kain ever got to the Mansion, either through his birds, spies, or wives. So he wasn't surprised.

BadGuysAlwaysWin
23rd Jul 2002, 20:37
True, warp. Remember that the Chess Match was there to "test" Kain, perhaps to ensure that he really was a Vampire, not some human sorcerer?

warpsavant
23rd Jul 2002, 20:53
I dont know. This is LOK anything is possible. The chess match was some sort of test. Anyway, I read the BO dialogue over, and Vorador acts very odd considering this young upstart barged into his swamp, stole the chaos armor right out of his Mansion. Killed his pets, ate all the people in the pantry...


Voradors first words
It’s not often I see one of our own, especially one as young and foolish as yourself. Nonetheless, drink. Drink deep and indulge your gift.


I'm not seeing the whole recoginition thing, he seems somewhat perplexed to me. This whole argument is shadey. We dont know how Vorador feels.

keepittrue
23rd Jul 2002, 20:55
Yeah but he still would be surprised because he didnt make Kain. He should be like how did you get to be Vamp, not, its not often I see a Vamp as young and foolish as yourself. I am not saying this is a fact but I truly believe V was not surprised about Kain because other Vamps could also make Vamps, and I dont think it wore them out either.

warpsavant
23rd Jul 2002, 21:01
Im gonna try and find that person who had the Anacrothe/Mortanius dialolgue that wasnt used, but is still present on the Bo disc. There are some Vorador lines there to and I think Vorador questions if Kain is indeed a vampire.

keepittrue
23rd Jul 2002, 21:06
I dont wanna sound like a jacka## but you cant use those lines, its like using those lines cut out of SR1.

For a long time Warp I thought V was the only one who made Vamps to but as this story came along more I started to think otherwise. Then NE really made me think.

Time Streamer
23rd Jul 2002, 21:26
After learning of the Chess match, I began to ponder that the Vordador's first words begin rather casually, like Kain and Vorador had just spoken few minutes earlier. Considering near the end of discussion he says, "Sarafan witch hunts are much too tedious to concern ourselves with. Am I understood Kain?" It felt strange how Vordador would know Kain's name since Kain didn't tell it to Vorador during the FMV. Clearly they made the introductions at the beginning of the Chess match.

keepittrue
23rd Jul 2002, 21:36
Lets just put this way, I dont think Vorador would let someone he did not know in his Mansion. He would have been more defensive. Vorador also is a much more powerful Vamp than Kain and remember Vamps can read minds.

warpsavant
23rd Jul 2002, 22:11
Some of the dialogue is interesting, and I'm gonna find it and post it anyway! LOL The first thing I said is they may produce but they dont, or wouldn't, because they dont know how (power) or they fear the consequences. Maybe, since the Vampires are always hunted, they wouldnt want to bring a "child" into a world such as theirs where they are hunted and persecuted.


BO PILL/0111 Kain:
Vorador enjoyed his game- I was but a fledgling vampire to him, a child to be coaxed and baited. Vorador bore no ill towards his own kind, as long as I knew my place, he said, I would be safe.



Vorador says some stuff but I havent found it yet....

warpsavant
23rd Jul 2002, 22:47
Vorador:

Pill 258
Call yourself a vampire do you?

Pill 259
Ive dined on rats more dangerous than you. HahahaHa

Pill 260
Why pretend child? Face your fate, as a mortal....

Pill 261
Ahhh, you are a great pretender, little one

Pill 262
Haahahaha So there is fight in you after all. HahahahahHaha (silence)Hmmmm...Perhaps there is more to you....

Pill 263
You have much to learn, Vampire, but, you have earned my hospitality, come, you shall sup at my table this eve.

keepittrue
24th Jul 2002, 00:49
Originally posted by warpsavant
Some of the dialogue is interesting, and I'm gonna find it and post it anyway! LOL The first thing I said is they may produce but they dont, or wouldn't, because they dont know how (power) or they fear the consequences. Maybe, since the Vampires are always hunted, they wouldnt want to bring a "child" into a world such as theirs where they are hunted and persecuted.



Personnally I definitely have to disagree with this reason because not reproducing while they are being hunted would ensure annihalation of they're species. However you do make an interesting point and I too wish to view this dialogue you speak of.

Hmm interesting, the Vorador I like to see. Where did you find that??

warpsavant
24th Jul 2002, 01:18
It's on the BO disc. In PILL.BIG There is some interesting Mortanius dialogue too.



Vorador:
It serves. But time is short. The Sarafan's power grows by the day. Soon our every haven will be destroyed. We are facing extinction once again.


It takes time and energy to create a vampire. I have not the strength. No, as Umah told you, we must kill the Sarafan Lord. When he is dead, their power will crumble.
You have come far already, Kain, and proven to be our greatest ally. We must plan our attack.


I think Vorador wasn't going to make any more Vampires until the Sarafan Lord died. And if they can all make vampires, its no big deal. As long as one lives, they are Legion.

Also, the humans have to be turned. Granted if they are dead, its no big deal. But if you plan to turn a living human, I would think you'd need it's permission first. In an era where Vampires are persecuted, where the Hell do you find people like that? Turning people against their will is not something the vampires would do IMO. Eventually the Vampire would grow powerfull enough and just kill the one who turned them in the first place, i think the vampires are smarter than that.

keepittrue
24th Jul 2002, 02:01
Warp I think we have to agree to disagree.
I dont think that proves that he would not make a Vamp unless the SL died. I think if he had the strenght he would have made many more.

I think it was more of the humans got turned against theyre will when the Vamps decided to feed in BO1, I dont know about BO2 tho. I dont think Vorador made all the Vamps that caught the attention of the circle, it must have been pretty fast a pace to make the Vamps.

Hmm, do I need to find a program to read the BO disc???

warpsavant
24th Jul 2002, 03:07
Thats cool, we can disagree Im still your friend. LOL You need Playstation Sound, and your computer has to have directX 8 or better. PS Sound is free you get it from snailrush.

That book, the one that says that Vampires grew into such numbers as to capture the attention of the Circle, maybe there were other vampires making more of their kind at that time.

But look what that got them! Annihilated! Janos death was the pinnacle of this afront.

Bad things come from vampires making more vampires. I dont think they are making more of their kind unless absolutely neccesary just because of their history in Nosgoth. If they can even make more of their kind.

keepittrue
24th Jul 2002, 20:29
*keepittrue shakes Warps hand in alliance*

I think I have direct 7 but I have to check.
Is it www.snailrush.com, then download ps sound,
how about I just try it. Thanx.

Very true about the annihalation (or close to) of the Vampires but I still disagree.

darien_specter
10th Aug 2002, 08:40
I'm going to reply to this one because I think it's a good one to bring back to page one. Nonexistent particularly makes many excellent points. To that I wish to add these things:

Amy says that Vorador and Janos reproduce in the more traditional way. As I understand it, this involves the one being turned coming into contact in some way with the vampire's blood, OR simply not being drained completly, depending on who you ask. If it is the former, then it makes sense that a vampire would be temporarily weakened in the creation of another; also the argument that a certain age/strength must first be attained, so that none of the Cabal would be capable. This could also be a first clue to the thus far unexplained extinction of the ancients; if Janos turned only Vorador (and perhaps only a few more) while the others turned so many that they weakened themselves too much, making them vulnerable either to attack, or perhaps something so simple as disease. In any case, the idea that Janos alone turned anyone, and only Vorador, and that Vorador turned every other vampire who ever existed, is just ludicrous from a standpoint of common sense.

Also, one of the very good points made was in the difference between the ancients and their offspring, and Kain and his: that the ancients turned the living, but Kain raises the dead. This must stem from Kain's own unique turning, that he himself was raised from death to vampirism. And it is clear that Kain's "sons" did the same in raising their armies.

Very good theories constructed here.

warpsavant
10th Aug 2002, 19:21
I dont think my idea is ludicrous at all and don't appreciate you basically telling me I have no common sense.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Aug 2002, 20:32
Originally posted by warpsavant
I dont think my idea is ludicrous at all and don't appreciate you basically telling me I have no common sense.
I will agree with you warp...that was very rude to say IMO. :mad: :rolleyes:



Originally posted by darien_specter
Amy says that Vorador and Janos reproduce in the more traditional way. As I understand it, this involves the one being turned coming into contact in some way with the vampire's blood, OR simply not being drained completly, depending on who you ask. If it is the former, then it makes sense that a vampire would be temporarily weakened in the creation of another; also the argument that a certain age/strength must first be attained, so that none of the Cabal would be capable. This could also be a first clue to the thus far unexplained extinction of the ancients; if Janos turned only Vorador (and perhaps only a few more) while the others turned so many that they weakened themselves too much, making them vulnerable either to attack, or perhaps something so simple as disease. In any case, the idea that Janos alone turned anyone, and only Vorador, and that Vorador turned every other vampire who ever existed, is just ludicrous from a standpoint of common sense.

Darien, we still do not know the fundamentals of the early vampire. (Meaning their rituals, their reproduction habits or their species code-of-conduct. I still think that when siring, a vampire becomes vulnerable to either attack or disease and must temporarily go off to heal. (Meaning I would think they are smart enough to not put themselves in the situation to be affected by either attack or disease). Amy said that after the curse upon the ancients, the race was no longer able to reproduce in the normal manner. I feel that a lot of early ancient's lives were lost in the original Ancient vs. Hylden battle and the survival of their species then became a question. Perhaps it was decided on, not to overpopulate the world with vampires (on account that they would only end up killing each other until their foodsource was depleted). I think this could lead us to the reasons why siring only occurs in spurts. I don't think it is ludicrous to think that Janos and Vorador were the only ones to sire. They were the oldest and most likely the mature beings of the species. Humans need to reach a certain maturity before they can produce offspring, why wouldn't it stand to reason in vampires as well? Again back to why this occurs in spurts, also during this point, the more vampires one would sire, the more likely they are to die as fledglings within the vampire scourge. Persecution took out a lot of vampires, why would one waste the energy to create them if they wouldn't be able to properly fend for themselves? I feel that not only is it a maturity issue, but a personal decision possibly influenced by the beliefs of the elder vamps. (Perhaps like a commandment list as in the Bible). I am sure rules were also applied to ensure the species survival. There is no evidence out there at this point to suggest that any other vampire other than Janos and Vorador could or did sire. (With the exception of Kain, but he does that differently and doesn't apply here). Until new evidence surfaces, I will stand behind them being the only two to accomplish such a feat during what we have seen within the LOK series so far.

darien_specter
10th Aug 2002, 21:51
Again, logic dictates that, barring issues of maturity, there is no physiological reason why only Janos Audron and Vorador would be able to create wampires. Sorry for sounding so harsh, but it really does sound just ridiculous to me. For one thing we don't know that Janos was the oldest of his race. And just because Janos made Vorador doesn't mean that other ancients - now dead - didn't make other vampires as old as Vorador, who could well also now be dead. As you said, we don't know very much about the ancients; this includes who was still alive when Janos turned Vorador, and how many others were turned by how many other of the ancients, as NE said. In fact, he has a lot of very good points; for instance, that Vorador was not surprised to see a vampire that he knew he didn't create. The only explanation is that others were turning vampires; else Vorador would have been more shocked to see an unacounted-for vampire. In BO2, yes, he was the only one; and look how small the Cabal is! At the most, what, ten vampires are all we ever see? There were more vampires than that staked in front of Janos' retreat. One person cannot create an entire race; it just doesn't stand to reason. Just because we haven't seen the other vampires creating does not mean that there aren't any; it is nearly impossible to prove the absence of a thing. Certainly if your race is being killed, then not creating more of it isn't going to do much to ensure its survival. And in the traditional vampire lore, at least as far as I'm aware, you don't see some sort of vampire "queen bee" who is the sole progenitor. If that were true, why not go get Vorador right off the bat? Kill him, and vampirism is on the path to extinction! Remember what Janos tells Raziel:
To them, I am merely a devil; the origin of their vampire 'plague'. ...

They have this foolish notion that destroying me will somehow topple our entire bloodline.
Thankfully, we're not that fragile. In the first, it is the human's perception that Janos is the origin of all the vampires; and in the second, Janos' death does not mean the end of their bloodline. I seriously doubt that if only Vorador was capable of passing on the bloodline, that this would make it "not that fragile." There's just no good reason to believe that, contrary to what logic would dictate here, that only one person is capable of creating vampires, and that every created vampire in history up to BO2 come from only Vorador. You need more evidence to support such a claim; the burden of proof lies with you...

EDIT: For the record, I wasn't implying any personal insult, nor a lack of sense on anyone's part; indeed, the entire purpose of my arguments is to appeal to that very faculty. Just because I think an idea is ridiculous does not mean that I think you are idiots. We all come up with stuff that someone at one point or another is going to think implausible. So please don't take it so personally. We're all friends here, right? :)

keepittrue
12th Aug 2002, 09:33
Actually Darien, after BO1 V did create a whole new race, and in BO1 V was THE oldest Vampire. Other points you made were indeed valid.

TempySmurf
12th Aug 2002, 18:12
There's no proof, only Vorador's word that he can not reproduce at will. There's no evidence of exactly how he reproduces or the methods in doing so nor the age limit nor who can and can't reproduce. Personally, I think Vorador might just be bipolar and/or manic depressive.

What intestests me though, is the creation of new vampires in the LOK universe through the blood (assuming that's what Amy meant by traditional methods) versus through souls.

So you have the ancients who were cursed in some form or another by the Hylden and became vampires. Then you have Kain who is turned into a vampire by Mortanius. These are two different "strains" of the vampiric "curse". This interests me because of Raziel's assumption that he is of the same ilk as Janos. Yet their "curses" are different.

On a side note, what I find strange is that Raziel's transformation and time spent in the abyss make him look similiar to an ancient. He gets the wings and gets a bluish tint to him. I assume he would appear almost like Janos if he was not deformed. I just find this odd.

Not to mention how easy the vampiric "curse" is to implement. Since the Hylden and Mortanius can produce similiar effects using different methods. So is there some sort of constant in the LOK universe that will always lead to vampirism? Such as having life within death (or death within life) or something else of that nature. How this works would define the correlation between the different types of vampires. Are they the same thing in a different form or are they completely unrelated and just similiar?

keepittrue
15th Aug 2002, 08:00
To be reeeaaaal honest, I think they just said V was weak after making Vamps is just an excuse to why V cant just be the crap out of Kain.