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darien_specter
18th Jul 2002, 08:09
I've got to stop thinking about this stuff... I'm at it again...

So this time I'm pondering the cause and effects of the shifts in history. (I'm still thinking about that timeline Jeffers posted, with that double-Reaver thing, and I'm still not buying it - sorry, J :)) As Kain tells Raziel, the paradox is created when "two incarnations of the blade meet in time and space." This was to explain the change wrought when Kain killed William. Well, a number of things sprang to mind: what about the element of free will? (More on that later.) And which blade?

I took it instance by instance. Two incarnations of the material blade? No, because that only happened once, but we know of three changes to history thus far. Very well; two incarnations of the blade in any form? No; when Raziel encounters the blade in Janos' retreat, there is no displacement. Which leaves the only solution as two incarnations of the wraith blade - the only condition that satisfies all three changes, all three areas of paradox. And this is how Kain knew when to pull the blade from Raziel: when his soul twinned, the doubling of the existence of the wraith blade Raziel bore and the wraith blade being created from his soul. It was then that the displacement began, and when Kain was able to make a history-changing choice.

Which leads to the free will question. Obviously, not just any act of will can cause the change of history; what makes one special from another? The paradox. (Why this should be so I cannot explain, but that's what we've got.) Clearly, though, it is not the mere paradox that creates the change in history; for no change occurs when the Reaver heals itself in William's chapel. (Perhaps if he had killed Moebius... it would have sparked a genocidal crusade against emaciated, ragged-winged blue guys... :p) But wait, I can hear you saying, what about when Kain killed William?

Well, I'm glad you asked. History as recorded at the beginning of BO1 did not include Kain killing William the Just; but it did include Moebius giving William the Reaver, planting a time-streaming device, Moebius giving Kain a time-streaming device, and the later appearance of the Reaver in Avernus for Kain to find. (But I just asked myself: if William has the Reaver, as the big statue of him shows, how'd it get back to Avernus? Maybe Moebius asked him very persuasively... that's a tough question. I welcome suggestions.) Since that history still leaves Kain on the battlefield of Willendorf with no other escape, presumably that also includes Kain's trip to the past as well. But once there, that history must have recorded him finding another way back, or none at all; he had no reason to expect that a path home lay through William. Therein lies Kain's act of free will: he chose to change things, to perform an act that he knew to be contrary to history. And when he returned to the time he left, the history he left had been obliterated, with Moebius' garish new outcome in its place. (The relationship to my disagreement with the twinned Reaver theory is that nothing changes about Kain finding the Reaver in Avernus, so I don't see the justification for it. How do i know nothing changed? Azimuth is still dead, so Kain still went through Avernus. Malek is still dead, so Vorador still killed him. Point of fact, that's probably when Moebius rounded him up - knowing, again, just as with Janos, that the time would be right...) The free will in the other instances, we already know; the only difference is that Kain had knowledge of events he had not experienced, so he knew what would be a change.

And what about Moebius? He seems to manage an awful lot of intricate manipulating across centuries. He must be time-streaming; who else would use the chambers? They surely weren't built just for Raziel's benefit - that would be a ridiculous amount of effort... At the same time, he can't just have two of himself running around all over the place. It seems a reasonable guess to say that, in the various time periods in which we encountered him, that was the Moebius of that era. Could it be that he just knows? That is, that he has seen all of history, and knew exactly when and where to be to unravel it? Everything Raziel did was part of the history we have experienced, which seems to indicate that it would always happen in that fashion, even though much of it depends on Raziel's manipulation by Moebius. What this seems to say to me is that everything that occurred in SR2 was a result of Kain's choice to kill William in BO1; this is the history that Kain would have seen in the Chronoplast, knowing apparently little of history before his quest began. That difference coupled with Moebius' intentions could have been enough to redirect history in the manner which Moebius desired... This last is pretty much me on a limb trying to piece things together about that devious devil. Who's got ideas...

Azrael
18th Jul 2002, 15:18
Posted by darien_specter:
...At the same time, he can't just have two of himself running around all over the place. It seems a reasonable guess to say that, in the various time periods in which we encountered him, that was the Moebius of that era. Could it be that he just knows? That is, that he has seen all of history, and knew exactly when and where to be to unravel it?...

Well, you're right, but i think that he is like the Elder, i mean, he can remember all the future and past wherever he is... like the Elder said ...Im eternally present here and everywhere... (i think that something like this)...

Ranmyaku
18th Jul 2002, 15:35
....... Ow. *rubs forehead* Ya know I could never figure out omnipotence even with a full night's sleep. Hrm. Nope. I thought no sleep would make me understand things a bit more. Ah well.

Well, as for the Reaver, I just think someone stole off of William sometime between the last 20 years leading up to Blood Omen. That why even if Kain didn't get to kill William in the past, lone and behold, it can still be placed in Avernus.

I'm gonna go get another cup of coffee and do some thinking on this.

Anubis_Orr
18th Jul 2002, 16:35
I don't think Moebius is omnipotent or omniscient, as we've all seen he is just as likely to make a mistake as anyone else, even though he knows the future (take the moment in William's chapel, Raziel could have killed him there). Moebius sees the "probable" streams of history, but free will she is a ***** and interferes the paths of the stream, however minutely or greatly in few instances. It's likely that Moebius has been informed or discovered to some degree the role that Raziel will play in the world of Nosgoth and therefore keeps track of our blue friend.

As to the Reaver being in Avernus Moebius could've taken it out of history at a point after he gave it to William, or perhaps he reclaims the reaver after Kain pulls it out of Raziel (we'll have to see what Kain does with it :))

IMO the time streaming chambers WERE built by the Ancient Vampires, but as they began to die off and humans assumed their roles a new guardian is picked. And I find it really hard to believe that Moebius is capable of building all of the time streaming chambers, and they would have to exist before he could go on his adventures to the past and future and be capable of influencing either.

chuffy
18th Jul 2002, 17:14
Originally posted by darien_specter

I took it instance by instance. Two incarnations of the material blade? No, because that only happened once, but we know of three changes to history thus far. Very well; two incarnations of the blade in any form? No; when Raziel encounters the blade in Janos' retreat, there is no displacement. Which leaves the only solution as two incarnations of the wraith blade - the only condition that satisfies all three changes, all three areas of paradox. And this is how Kain knew when to pull the blade from Raziel: when his soul twinned, the doubling of the existence of the wraith blade Raziel bore and the wraith blade being created from his soul. It was then that the displacement began, and when Kain was able to make a history-changing choice.

are you saying: That you think that when kain pulled the reaver from raziel's body part of raziel, or the wraith blade, entered the empty blood reaver. Making it into the soul reaver. But leaving enough left for the raziel's wraith blade to stay combined to him? Thus making two froms of the wraith blades. One in the reaver and one on raziel's arm?
i just wanna make sure.

chuffy

darien_specter
18th Jul 2002, 19:07
Chuffy: yes, that is indeed what I'm saying. But I've said that for awhile...

Lot of good replies so far... I like Anubis' thought that the time-streaming chambers were built by the ancients. That thought never even occurred to me... but if Kain can figure out how to use them, well then so could Moebius have figured it out... it also speaks to the nagging question of how Moebius could have used the elemental forces peculiar to the ancients... That reinforces the similar thought I had once that the ancients are the architects of the Sarafan cathedral/abbey complex...

About Avernus, remember though that the end of SR2 is before Kain and William battle, so that doesn't help much for that. Again, as Ranmyaku said, I really think the simplest answer is that someone just stole it from William... As I recall from BO, most of the Nemesis soldiers were using duplicates of the Reaver anyway, and William's didn't appear to exhibit the magical (that is, the wraith blade) properties that Kain's did. So it could have been easily enough replaced with a duplicate to fool William, especially if done after victory was assured...

Good answers, keep 'em coming. :D

Anubis_Orr
18th Jul 2002, 19:15
Well at the end of SR2 Kain holds the reaver, now depending on what he does with it can change things. For your theory, if Kain just left the Reaver behind then Moebius could take it and do what he wants with it, such as transporting to Avernus or giving it to King William, since we don't know where Moebius claimed either one from, or when, we'll have to wait and see :)

As to William's Reaver not exhibiting any qualities of the Soul Reaver
Actually, when are you saying that it was replaced with a duplicate??

Also the game doesn't follow William and William didn't face any supernatural enemies other than Kain so the blade wouldn't exhibit any magical properties.

darien_specter
18th Jul 2002, 19:25
In the original history I mean. Moebius always gives William the Reaver; it's just that he originally uses it in his campaign to conquer Nosgoth. Only at some point, it has to make it to Avernus. So either Moebius "persuaded" him to give it up, or had someone steal it. In which case I'd think it'd be easier for all concerned if William didn't know it was missing. In fact, even if William gave it up "voluntarily," it would probably be a blow to his rule for him to have lost it, so he'd probably want a copy just to save face with the troops. But all of that is undone when Kain kills him, of course...

I don't think the Reaver exhibited any properties whatever even when William was fighting Kain, which is why I think a copy would do the job for William later on (in the original history I mean). Maybe it has to do with a vampire wielding a vampiric weapon...

But you're right, at the end of SR2 things are different. Any number of different things can happen from here... :eek:

Anubis_Orr
18th Jul 2002, 19:31
But the Reaver that William is using HAS to be the Soul Reaver or else the paraodixcal moment when history can be changed won't occur when he battles William.
Also Moebius doesn't really need to bother stealing the Reaver from William since he can go to a time where he can get it without a hassle, because for 470 years the Reaver's presence is unaccounted for....

warpsavant
18th Jul 2002, 20:38
But that doesn't matter, because DS is talking about the "time" where Moebius gives the blade to William, thus "corrupting" him for lack of a better term, leading into his transformation as the Nemesis. This is what Kain knows as his "childhood", BEFORE Kain travelled into the past. At some point the Nemesis must "lose" the Reaver so that Kain can find it in Avernus.

Anubis_Orr
18th Jul 2002, 22:17
No, I was just saying that Moebius didn't need to take the Reaver he gave William because he could just take it out of another time period.

darien_specter
18th Jul 2002, 22:18
Warp is right; also, I'm not saying William doesn't have the Soul Reaver; you're absolutely right, Anubis, it is critical for him to have it when he fights Kain. But it doesn't exhibit the wraith-blade properties it does when Kain wields it, leading me to believe that a man wielding the Reaver somehow inhibits the manifestation of those properties. So that, far later on, when it became originally necessary for Moebius to plant the Reaver in Avernus, he could subsitute a fake and William would never know - after the battle would have taken place. In the altered timeline, Moebius can simply plant the healed Reaver from William's chapel; but in the original, something else had to be done. In the original history, they never meet at all. So any time after the time when Kain visits, Moebius would have taken the Reaver back from him somehow.

So that:
Original history:
50 years before the Fall: Moebius gives William the Reaver, beginning his transformation into the Nemesis. He proceeds to conquer Nosgoth. Kain arrives, but does nothing.
Some undetermined point: Moebius gets the Reaver back from William, perhaps substituting a copy to ensure William maintains his rule. He plants the Reaver in Avernus.
At the time of the Fall: Kain finds the Reaver and goes back in time.

Altered History:
50 years before the Fall: Moebius gives William the Reaver. Kain arrives, and kills William; the Reaver is broken. William's body is laid to rest in the Sarafan cathedral, the broken Reaver enshrined there as well. Moebius uses the vampiric slaying of the beloved William to launch his genocide against the vampires.
30 years before the Fall: Raziel arrives, and the Reaver draws on him to heal itself. He spares Kain, and leaves the Reaver embedded in William's tomb. Moebius presumably reclaims it, planting it in Avernus.
At the Fall: Kain finds the Reaver in Avernus, and travels back in time. He returns to witness the execution of Vorador, and the extermination of the vampire race save for himself. He refuses the sacrifice, and the Pillars collapse.

I hope that cleared up what I was trying to say. If it's still unclear just tell me what is and I'll see if I can reword it. Now, back to some classic Klingon-walloping Star Trek...

Vampmaster
18th Jul 2002, 22:29
It is Raziel who must enter the Blood Reaver to turn it into the Soul Reaver, not Raz as the wraith blade. You can't have:

Raz (as wraith blade) enters Reaver

Raz (as Reaver) consumes Raz

Raz leaves Reaver (as wraith blade)

Raz (as wraith blade) enters Reaver

Raz (as Reaver) consumes Raz

Raz leaves reaver (as wraith blade)

etc etc etc...

But you can have:

Raz (as not wraith blade) enters Reaver

Raz (as wraith blade) leaves Reaver

Raz (as wraith blade) puts Raz (as not wraith blade) in the Reaver

etc etc etc...

If the top one was true it wouldn't need to consume him, but he would never have become it so there would be nothing to cause the cycle to be started in the first place. Part of Raziel's soul is in the Reaver, part is still in his body, but both parts will have been put back together by the time he becomes the wraith blade that is around his arm. So the wraith blade is all of Raziel's future soul. I keep repeating myself with this, and I explain it badly every time.:o

Can't the Reaver have been in the stronghold until Willam needed it, then Moebius just told him he needed it back and stashed it in Avernus. Even with the Soul Reaver and all his armies he would probably feared the circles magic so he would have done what Moebius said. In the new timeline Moebius would have left it in the Stronghold for Raziel to heal it and then moved it back to Avernus for Kain to find.

Anubis_Orr
18th Jul 2002, 22:40
I never contested the fact that William has the Soul Reaver or the fact that Moebius may have pulled a switch on him, I'm just saying that Moebius could have just as easily taken the Reaver from a different time/line/period/stream and planted it at Avernus.

darien_specter
18th Jul 2002, 23:10
VM, I'm not sure what you mean. The consumption of Raziel in the Reaver blade is what created the wraith blade in the first place; it is Raziel's soul. Originally, this was complete; but I see no reason why it needed to be. There are many reasons why I believe that the creation of the Soul Reaver was accomplished without killing Raziel, but I've said all of those things elsewhere, and to repeat them all would be a great undertaking. In any case, what else could have caused the displacement but the emergence of the wraith blade? It would have been the point just prior to Raziel's utter consumption. He is indeed weakened to the point of death after the event. It seems logical, then, that the doubling has occurred. That is the changing of history; else why couldn't Kain just pull the blade right away? Why wait for a crucial moment if the only goal was sparing Raziel's life? The crucial moment was when the soul of the Reaver emerged, and Raziel was nearly destroyed. In this instance present met future, and the paradox was created. Thus, the blade is forged, but Raziel lives; this is why the blade is still with him. And it is Raziel's soul entering the Reaver; he describes the moment when his "twinned soul hovered both inside and outside the Reaver blade." That is how the wraith blade - the soul of the Reaver - is created. One twin enters the Reaver; one survives - Raziel.

This is not coming across very clearly, but hopefully you see what I mean... if not I will try to do better... :)

darien_specter
18th Jul 2002, 23:19
Anubis, it is indeed possible that Moebius took the Reaver from the past, but I don't think so - that would cause too many problems, I think, and leave the present Reaver just lying around somewhere where any schmuck could get his hands on it. That seems like a really bad idea... :p

As for alternate streams, it is my contention that when the timeline is altered, the original is destroyed. There are two reasons: 1) From a logical perspective, because a change alters both future and past events, so there really can't be a "branching" effect. 2)Kain tells Raziel that if the change is too great, then "it is the irritant who is expelled," which again implies that there can be only one course of events, and if there is a change to an alternate possibility then the original ceases to occur and therefore to exist. Once history is altered, the original is no longer accesible in past or future. I concede that Moebius could have brought the Reaver from the past, but again, that seems like it causes too many possible problems, when simply taking it back causes none that I can think of...

Binky
19th Jul 2002, 08:27
Well, darien, William's Reaver "screamed" just like Kain's... so it has (at least A) special property. Or am I mistaken? All I know is that constantly dying and getting restored by the HoD was pretty annoying (and, of course, shouldn't even have happened; unless, that is, Kain's special heritage granted him immunity to the Reaver even then :) ).

On Moebius: if this is the Moebius-of-the-time, not a time-streaming-Moebius, I'd really like to see his diary.
"Dear Diary. To do: Taunt Raziel so that he enters the Reaver. Don't call Raziel Raziel in front of Malek.
(aftermath: $#%$! Forgot. Have to do something with Malek.)
Dear Diary. Malek's done with.
... (500 years later)
To do: greet Raziel like a friend. Send him to kill Kain. Become mad.
...
To do: die.
...
To do (ghost's diary): greet Raziel in the new Nosgoth."

Actually, when one thinks about it, if the other people (and I'm using the term very loosely) live in time, the conversations are pretty weird. For instance, Ariel: if "Ariel remembers", in SR1 she should have remembered that Raziel insulted her some time ago... and yet, she greets him, and helps him, and is kind to him. Funny, that.

Anubis_Orr
19th Jul 2002, 13:46
That's because history has changed, but only in the most minor ways because like Kain says (paraphrase) "The stream flows around the pebble admitting only the most minor of changes."

So far the only one who seems immune to these changes is the Elder, Moebius dosn't really count since he may be responsible for many of the changes.

darien_specter
19th Jul 2002, 19:36
Binky, that was hilarious... :D

Y'know, I can't actually remember if William's Reaver screamed or not. Hard to tell with all my futile Reaver screaming... also annoying: constantly running out of magic because I hit William twice with the Reaver, then having to run away and do something about it... ;) And yeah, Ariel: funny, that... always thought so myself... "What are you, little soul? Oh, yeah - jackass." **slaps him**

On a more serious note, I can certainly see the point about Moebius, at least, living outside of time somehow. I've been wondering about that for awhile. His conversations with Raziel are certainly very linear to be scripted out in Moebius' Big Book of Nefarious Plots*...

*$39.95 at amazon.com

warpsavant
19th Jul 2002, 19:55
Binky's right, William has the Soul Reaver. It screams like Kains Reaver, but it has a green hue instead of a blue one. I wouldnt look to much into it, the FAQ's at SK specifically state it is the Soul Reaver that William weilds. I dont really think this changes anything that DS has said.

Vampmaster
19th Jul 2002, 21:18
In BO1 the Soul Reavers hue changed depending on how much magic you had left.

Darien-Specter, what I meant was Raziel enters the Reaver as himself and leaves as the wraith blade. If the wraith blade enters before he does then it is in the wrong order and if it consumes him as well, then it has destroyed him before he can enter it. The only explanation I can think of is that coiling around the Reaver does not mean entering it and it did not consume him just force him into the empty Reaver that it was coiled around. At the moment though only part of his soul is trapped in the Reaver: He is part way in and part way out, but before he becomes the wraith blade the rest of him will be sucked in to the Reaver. So when he leaves it, as the wraith blade this will be all of him. Is that explanation any better?

darien_specter
19th Jul 2002, 23:38
Guys, I know that William has the Soul Reaver. It's just that when I played the PC Blood Omen, William's reaver did nothing and Kain's was always blue. Maybe it was defective, who knows...

VM: Sorry, it's still not clear to me... I don't know what exactly you mean by "entering" or "leaving" the Reaver. With that said, it's hard to tell what it is we're disagreeing on here. Is my explanation still unclear as well? I still don't think that I'm explaining it too well...

Binky
20th Jul 2002, 18:52
Heh, I'd love to read that Moebius's book (though I'd rather get a discount)... perhaps then I'd understand what drives this man. I mean, if he knows that he dies in the fight with Kain, why does he fight at all? If he dies, what does he get out of this whole deal with time-streaming, mixing up destinies, and so on? I don't understand his motives. Not-at-all.
Unless he has no motive at all, and is just a religious fanatic. Which I'd hate, personally.

Vampmaster: why does it have to be all of Raz' soul that is the wraith blade? It has always been so - in all of the previous repetitions of the cycle, but THIS repetition is different... THIS Raz managed not to kill Kain. So perhaps in THIS repetition - which, hopefully, will end the eternal cycles, a wraith blade CAN be created from only part of the soul? I don't think so, personally, but - perhaps?

And back to original darien's post. Hm. So, you're saying that the twinning of soul is the existence of both Raz' freshly-out-of-body soul and the wraith-blade-soul in the same place? It may be so, but well...

Idea: what if, in that moment, Raz' soul (ONE of it) is kind of Schroedinger's cat? The cat isn't the best example, because the state function always collapses into either "dead" or "alive" upon checking, while in this case it apparently collapsed into BOTH "dead" AND "alive" (that is, both "inside" and "outside" the blade)... perhaps a better example would be interference patterns done with one photon? (The result of the photon passing through BOTH gaps?) That's at least how I took the scene (somehow, the words "uncertainty" and "paradox" have kind of way of automatically putting me into quantum mechanics way of thinking :D )

darien_specter
20th Jul 2002, 19:25
So that his freshly-out-of-body soul "collapses" into both his body and the Reaver? That's brilliant. That's exactly what I've been trying to say so ineffectually. Bravo, Binky...

hmm, quantum mechanics - why am I not surprised...

Binky
21st Jul 2002, 11:04
Oh %^&$@!
Was I drunk or what when I wrote this? Raz's soul is Schroedinger's cat?
Ah, well. As long as I'm not quoted on this, yes, I would not be surprised if the soul in the blade, and the soul still in Raz, were two complete Raz's fresh-out-of-body souls. No fractioning, just two complete copies. And yes, because of some deal of quantum physics (after all, Heisenberg's principle is, when taken "philosophically" (large quote marks there, please), free will) and a lot of Nosgoth magic, which apparently allows for re-capitation of vampires. Doubling of souls seems a small feat next to THAT.

I keep forgetting this: where is the thread where the Ancients as soul reavers are discussed?