View Full Version : The Ancients and the Shift Glyph...

18th Jul 2002, 00:41
...i remember that i saw once a thread on the old forum (i think) that was about the relation of the Ancients and the Spectral World...or something like that...anyway :rolleyes: ...well i think the Ancients knew about the Shift Glyph, just check this:

- Near the Pillars, the two collumns;
- In Janos Retreat, underwater (the entrance);
- And all over the Air forge;

I think i miss some places...if you remember anymore Shift Glyph symbol on SR2, just post it here... :)

Well my following theory is:(And i could swear that i read something like this before)
The Ancients before got cursed with vampirism, were soul reavers (maybe thats the reason the Elder hates them all(maybe he was one of them, that got banished, but thats for another thread)), i say this because the words of the Elder

...I restored you to yourself(hmm, i think he mean the Raz being a soul reaver), Raziel. It was Kain who destroyed you(Raz's body)...

So do you guys think that the Ancients were soul reavers?

~note:Man, this is very strange because i have the feeling that i wrote something like this, and it was recently... :(

18th Jul 2002, 01:16
Nah. But with knowledge of the Elder God and the Underworld. They would have known about the spectral realm. And that their saviour would need to use it, to accomplish his goals.

18th Jul 2002, 01:24
I can't really decide about that, but I definitely think they knew Raziel would be. All those places mark areas that shift in the spectral plane such as to give Raziel unique access to areas not accessible by any others (except if you can fly, of course... ) In the Air Forge? Lets him compensate for not being able to fly around in it. Behind the Pillars? Gives him access to the Pillars shrine (which has his portrait on the door!). Underwater at Janos'? It's the only way he could get in, because his wings are ruined. There's also the mural, with the figure holding the Soul Reaver; that figure has a golden aura, that I've stated is to represent Raziel's ability to shift planes, and the fragility of his material existence.

That's my two cents, anyway... Like I said, I haven't decided one way or another about the rest of the ancients. But they were certainly waiting for Raziel...

18th Jul 2002, 15:28
Hmm, darien, I'm a bit meta-thinking here, but don't you think those might have been there just to let the player know what Raz was supposed to do at the particular moment? To avoid lots of people demanding walkthroughs, solutions and so on? Personally, I found myself even slightly - well, insulted - at how easy this made some puzzles. (Not on my behalf: on Raziel's. I mean, one would think that after SR1 - where he did not need such hints - he would remember that sometimes going into spectral could change things!)

And well, just one tiny bit to add: I think that the Forges were waiting for a Soul Reaver (a person); not for a vampire. The Thralls, after all, have black blood...

18th Jul 2002, 18:48
You're right, of course; I was really just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt here, but since you mentioned it...


Whew... got that out of my system. Yeah, I was disappointed at that; it sort of removed the element of having to figure something like that out, like in SR1. And not only were there symbols all over the place, but at the Pillars the damn FMV ends by zooming in on it: "Here you go, in case the fact of torches and a canyon beyond your reach didn't clue you in, look here's a column with a shift glyph..." Hmph.

As to the other point: yes. I have long been saying that they expected Raziel as a reaver of souls. It's in the murals... :D

18th Jul 2002, 20:11
Originally posted by darien_specter
As to the other point: yes. I have long been saying that they expected Raziel as a reaver of souls. It's in the murals... :D

but Janos was surprised to see raziel in his: no jaw no skin state.


18th Jul 2002, 20:21
Outside forces have colluded to change events in history in their favor, only the actions of Kain have diverted things somewhat from their plans. So Raziel was always meant to meet Janos but because of the outside forces influence his appearance has changed and perhaps changed the nature of the meeting (darien_specter has a good theory on the reason Raziel is destined to meet Janos)

19th Jul 2002, 08:23
The hints everywhere were almost as annoying as the doors and the demon barriers that you could not simply pass... I prefer to choose whom to fight, not having to fight to open some doors!

But darien, which murals, precisely?
There are those "raising of pillars" and "war" murals, like in the Pillars chamber. Those repeat pretty often, and on some the central figure looks a bit like Raz (glowing eyes, that is). On the entrance to the Light Forge there is something that looks like Raziel - it has no stomach. But it has some really weird hands.
There is the statue in the Fire Forge which looks just like Raz, who - funny that, after all those lengthy cutscenes, I expected a really, really long commentary on how this statue resembled him - did not comment on it at all.
And Janos looked like he also knew Raz, not only knew of Raz.

Enlighten me, though: where do they show that the Ancients expected Raz as a Reaver of Souls? (That the Thralls are black-blooded is a no-observation, because if the entering vampire in question had been a winged creature, or a teleporting creature, it would have been able to go feeding through the top of the Forges, which are quite often open. Or teleport out. :) )

19th Jul 2002, 19:29
I base this assumption on the fourth and final of the murals in the Pillars shrine. They show one of the ancients bearing the Soul Reaver (note the golden aura in contrast to the blood-red aura in the first panel). This one, unlike the others in the panel, is free of the blood curse. He also has a gloden aura about him. I take that as their attempts to depict our buddy Raziel being able to shift planes, that his corporeal "body" is temporary. (Someone - Serul, maybe? - also mentioned that Raziel has kind of a glow about him in the intro movie for SR2.) Between that and the fact that he is free from the blood curse, I think it clearly shows that they expected someone like Raziel to come to them. The fact that Raziel is so clearly depicted in the many places you described, as well as (and most clearly, besides the Fire forge statue) on the door to the underground. In these representations, as you also noticed, even though his form is that of the ancients he still has his glowing eyes. (The Light Forge door isn't him, but rather the enormous statue within. What these beings are, I don't know. They most closely resemble those inexplicable bound creatures in the Air Forge...)

Perhaps it was a bit of an assumption to jump on the "they knew he was a soul reaver" bandwagon, I admit in retrospect. :rolleyes: But I think they knew he would be what he is, if not the form he would have...

19th Jul 2002, 20:32
I believe they know about Raziel's destiny because they built the time streaming chambers and the "windows of time[end of SR]). They were the original guardians of the pillars so I would assume they have the same abilities (or more) of the current Guardians of the Pillars.

20th Jul 2002, 01:26
Posted by darien_specter:
... (Someone - Serul, maybe? - also mentioned that Raziel has kind of a glow about him in the intro movie for SR2.)...

Hmmm, like this one?


20th Jul 2002, 04:28
Haven't seen the opening intro in a while but isn't Kain glowing a little too? I kinda just thought that it was the light emanating from the object overhead (three-pronged spins) that made it seem like everything was glowing, walls, floor, etc.

20th Jul 2002, 05:58
Yeah, like that... specifically, look down around his cowl for what I think he was talking about.

20th Jul 2002, 10:47
:D Thanks for starting my day in a wonderful way, darien!
(I'm sorry. It's just when I saw the "gloden aura", I remembered the Terry Pratchett's tale of a king that became cursed by a god with spelling trouble: everything he touched turned into glod. Glod turned out to be a dwarf from a village far away, and he was very annoyed by being constantly multiplied and teleported across the Disc. I LOVE the Discworld. I simply have to love a world where the horse of Death himself is called Binky.)

Mhm. OK.

Couldn't the golden aura be merely an attempt to show that the one wielding the Reaver is different - divine, wielding the holy weapon? (I assumed this by comparison with how, for instance, saints were presented in Christian paintings (especially medieval): wearing gold, with - for all the birds of Avernus I can't remember the word - aureole? Nimbus?) Nothing to do with shifting or soul-reaving (of course, those might be implied, but I didn't see them anywhere; that's why I was surprised). Raziel's glow in the intro is, I think, more the light around; he sometimes does glow, and sometimes not, and so does Kain.

The paintings in the Light Forge? Well, they do have really big eyes... and look at their lumbar regions. Just like Raziel's. And they stretch out their hands, while it's Raz's hand that unlocks the door.

Of course, MY pet theory is that it will be Raziel himself who will order those ridiculous forges/time streaming chambers built. I mean, who better to show how they are to look like than the man who already saw them? In other words, the murals don't show the hopes of the Ancients, but real scenes from the past; and the statue in the Fire Forge is not of some future messiah, but of the creator of the Forge. :)

Yup. You people can laugh now.

20th Jul 2002, 11:02
Binky, once again you prove that great minds think alike... I too have thought to myself that Raziel maybe has a hand in the building of those places... that that's why Janos recognizes him, but is stunned by his appearance... I even, when I'm playing, sometimes think of the underground as Raziel's sanctuary, a place that only he could get to, to rest... Shhh - best not say that too loud... Good eye on the hand thing.

And again, that's another valid point about the aura about him : merely depicting a holy savior... does he have an actual nimbus about his head? Or is that just the art of the Sarafan? I can't remember, and I'm not checking now - it was way too late when I posted a couple hours ago, but I can't stop playing crappy old demos...

Oh, just noticed that typo - I usually catch that, but it this case, glad to provide the service... :D I've always wanted to read some of those Discworld novels, they look hilarious. Which is the first one? Or does it matter? Which would you recommend to read first?

I suspect we may have much in common, good Binky... :D

20th Jul 2002, 11:47
Heh. Interest in mythology, Latin and LoK... nah. Nothing in common.

The best site to learn things about the Discworld is www.lspace.org; but, well, I'll give you a primer here. There are (more or less, the most recent are not available in paperback, which is what I buy) thirty Discworld novels. The first is "The Colour of Magic", about a would-be wizard, Rincewind, and the first tourist of the Disc, Twoflower. This one, and the next one, "The Light Fantastic" are quite different from the other novels - some things are a bit different here than in the other ones, Terry's style was not yet... mature?... when he wrote them, but they are a fun ride nonetheless.
Well, anyway, there are several sub-series of books in the series, and some people like some more, and others less, as it always is; but most of the books are stand-alones as well. The ones I like the most are "Mort", in which Death finds himself a student, and goes on vacation; its follow-up "Grim Reaper"; "Wyrd Sisters" - "Macbeth" coupled with "Hamlet" in Discworld scenery; "Guards! Guards!", which introduces the Ankh-Morpork City Guard (actually, all the Guard books: "Men At Arms", "Feet of Clay", "Jingo" and "The Fifth Elephant", are hilarious); "The Last Continent", in which Rincewind travels to XXXX, a continent which looks suspiciously like Australia...
But the ones I'd recommend reading are the "starters" of series: "The Colour of Magic" for the Rincewind series, "Guards! Guards!" for the Watch books, "Wyrd Sisters" for the Witch books, "Mort" for the Death books. There is also a really funny one which isn't part of any series, called "Small Gods".
Ah heck, why am I lying. Read them all, chronologically. Even a bad Discworld book (and there aren't many: two or three in the thirty) is a lot better than most other books out there.

A Discworld gem: what are the three best things in life according to Cohen the Barbarian? "Hot water, good teeth and soft toilet paper."

Sade Lyrate
21st Jul 2002, 18:19
...even though Pratchett's not the writer of it, I'd recommend to
any Discworld-fan (or -to-be?) The Science of Discworld, written by
Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen...
:D I practically failed Chemistry and Physics in school, but that
book's written in a style that 'gets the point across'... And on top of
that, it's Funny!

Apologies for an OT-post...