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Lady Minerva
17th Jul 2002, 12:37
This was supposed to be a poll, but due to spam (as I'm been informed by other members), this will have to be a regular discussion thread. I was going to wait, but I was encouraged to go ahead and post it anyway, just for the discussion value.

So, okay. Here goes.

How maybe people think that Kain was too hard on Umah, over her taking his Stone from him and running off?

Basically, I think he should have helped her, then have Janos teleport in
to get her and taken her home -- with a note stapled to her forehead, telling Vorador what happened and requesting that the Cabal leader keep her out of his hair for the rest of the mission. :p

Anyway, Umah Bloodomen and I have been having an off-line discussion about this and I have been convinced to go ahead and share the question. In fact, she says she's got some insites to add to the mix, if posted.

Take it, Umah.

Serul
17th Jul 2002, 14:06
Let's not forget that Kain thought that Umah was a spy for the Sarafan Lord.

Lady Minerva
17th Jul 2002, 14:56
Ooo, hey. Yeah. I forgot about that. But I wonder, when exactly, he came to that unproven conclusion?

Umah Bloodomen
17th Jul 2002, 15:33
Okay, I took the liberty to start a character thesis if you will. It will be appearing on my LoK fansite when it is complete. Here are some interesting tidbits of the thesis of Umah pertaining to this current thread. (For the rest of this character thesis, you'll just have to await the site's completion. :p)





Umah’s Betrayal: Premeditated or Impulsive? Is Love Something To Consider?

With the many ironies of the Legacy of Kain Series™, I felt that it was inevitable that Umah would betray Kain. Despite this, I believe that her motive for doing so wasn't as vindictive as most other characters who have done the same. I believe that Umah simply wanted to be the hero, I didn't get the impression that she wanted take away all that Kain had accomplished. As Kain continued on through Blood Omen 2™ his arrogance became more apparent. I am willing to believe that Vorador had discussed Kain and his arrogant, power-hungry nature with his child following Kain’s defeat at the hands of The Sarafan Lord 200 years ago. Umah most likely disregarded Vorador’s warnings of Kain as she cared for him during his slumber. I believe that this is when she learned to hold feelings for Kain. By the time that Kain had awakened, Umah was beginning to fall in love. As she retrained Kain, I believe she naively felt that Vorador was wrong about him, and even perhaps underestimated him herself. I don’t believe that Vorador ever really liked Kain on account of Kain’s desire for power. Umah foolishly stated at the beginning of Blood Omen 2™ that the Cabal could not defeat the Sarafan alone, and that they were willing to put everything on the line in order to enlist Kain to help their cause. When it appeared that Kain grew closer to his victory over The Sarafan Lord, Umah panicked. She was devoted to Vorador and Kain was infringing on that bond and making her look like less of a leader to her kind. Fearing her own embarrassment and perhaps feeling that she was no longer Vorador’s “favorite”, Umah needed to do something, and fast. In her mind, taking the Nexus Stone surely would protect her from being defeated by The Sarafan Lord. At this point, nothing mattered but her own reputation. Did Umah love Kain? Yes. I believe she did, however, she proved willing to throw her feelings aside to maintain the bond with her sire, Vorador, without weighing the consequences of her actions first.



Umah’s Death: Justified or Uncalled For? Did Kain Love Umah?


What kind of leader would Kain be if he had spared Umah? Kain would be a total hypocrite if he let her live, and destroyed others who committed trespasses against him (Marcus, Faustus). She betrayed him by stealing his glory, actually not necessarily HIS glory per say, but THEIR glory. From the dialogue, it seemed that Kain was willing to share the victory of defeating the Sarafan Lord, however Umah's impulsive nature prevented that. I agree that Umah gave Kain what he wanted to hear as opposed to the truth, which in fact condemned her. He was justified in taking her life because a good leader must ensure just punishment for subjects who step out of line, this leads to deterring similar crimes from taking place. Umah's death occurred as a just punishment. I don't think Vorador even questioned the punishment when Kain let him in on the details surrounding Umah’s death. Although Vorador was shocked and upset by the death of his child, (as any parent would be) he didn’t really argue about it, nor did he seem to resent Kain for doing it. Umah betrayed Kain and let down her beloved Cabal. Perhaps Vorador was embarrassed by Umah’s actions in the end. Either way, he knew what the result of treachery was, and could only respect the punishment enforced. I believe it was obvious that Kain had feelings for Umah. Allowing himself to feel love for anyone must have been a difficult task since becoming a vampire. Even at the time of her death, Kain never talked down to Umah, yelled at her, nor did he question why she had betrayed him. I believe Kain was tortured by having to take Umah’s life but had to inform her of what she had done wrong, perhaps to justify his actions to himself. I believe it was a sign of true love to both comfort Umah yet still punish her. I believe that Kain felt that he was doing her a favor, sparing her from a more agonizing death at his hands, as well as sparing her from the future events of Nosgoth..




What If Umah Had Lived?

Kain was not stupid. He knew that whatever compassion he began showing Umah would only get in the way if he had let her live. She is again, too impulsive and would jeopardize Kain's rise to glory. No offense, but if I worked as hard as Kain did and put up with the things Kain had over the course of these games I would most definately not want to jeopardize it for mere impulse. Perhaps if Umah had actually took the time and effort to discipline herself, then the jeopardy would be worth making her Kain's queen. If Umah had been spared, she would indeed have gained some of Kain's gifts but I still stand behind the argument that she is WAY too impulsive and naive to use them. (I refuse to call her "stupid" just lacks common sense. (She strikes me more as “book smart” rather than “street smart”). I think she would let his power go straight to her head and would've ended up getting herself killed anyway. I am willing to believe that if Umah lived, she and Vorador would clash instead of upholding the close-knit relationship that they did. Vorador and Kain don't get along because of Kain's arrogance and whatnot, and you know Kain would try to instill some of that trademark arrogance into Umah, perhaps taking her on as his own "prodigy". I mean he did instill his arrogance in 6 other individuals we all know and love.(The Sarafan brethren). I would stand to think that Vorador may have even taken Umah out if these events transpired, he's not one to jeopardize all that he's worked hard for just because of someones lack of good judgement. He still remained reserved about many of Kain's actions in BO2.


I hope this further's our off-forum discussions Minerva! I think you will find some of my ramblings a bit interesting. Looking forward to some feedback. :)

Umah character thesis is a written work of Umah Bloodomen - Copyright 2002. All Rights Reserved. Not for reproduction without expressed permission.

Lady Minerva
17th Jul 2002, 15:48
I'm not done reading this yet, but before I forget, I 've got to point out that General Hylden defeated Lord Kain 200 years ago, ... not 400.

On Umah's Motivations:
There was also Kain's ambitions in themselves. She seemed afraid of what might happen if he did win, how he would rule. Would his rule really be more just that General Hylden's? Or would he see the Cabal (at that point obsolete) as a threat to his position and wipe them out? In fact, she seemed so sure that he would metamophosize into the thing that they hated and feared that she seemed to go so far as to exclude him from their race, referring to her band as "we vampires" (or was it "us vampires"?), ... like he wasn't one of them anymore.

Vorador's Reaction:
Still, he was pretty preeved at first, huh, when he heard how the girl died? Seems like our boy just can't seem to stay out of trouble, ... even with his associates. :p

Umah Bloodomen
17th Jul 2002, 15:57
Typo on my part. I had a reference to the events of BO1 being 400 years before Kain woke up. (As you can see I changed direction with the point. I'll edit that out.

Lady Minerva
17th Jul 2002, 16:07
Good points, tho'. I should've seen some of that coming myself.

An interesting point with their relationship.

It's touching, isn't it, when he commends her courage as she's dying. The way he speaks softly to her in a voice so gentle, it almost doesn't sound like him -- and the way he gently strokes her, with his claws away from her so he doesn't stratch her in the process.

For a brief moment, he almost seems, well, ... human again. Or at least a little humane. :)

Huh. That doesn't last long, tho', when she tells him what he and we all already know, that she's dying. And his response (that cold, decisive tone) is that he's not likely to lift a claw to help her, ... not that he doesn't lift a claw -- except to put her down. :rolleyes:

One thing's for sure: here's a guy you don't mess with.

SirRaziel
18th Jul 2002, 05:55
I wonder what will happen if Raziel ever finds out?

Umah Bloodomen
18th Jul 2002, 05:59
It's not Raz I am worried about.... **looks around innocently*** It's Blincoln. :p


Hell hath no fury like a Blincoln scorned. ;)

SirRaziel
18th Jul 2002, 06:04
Want me to put it in my comic? Raziel finds out about Kain and Umah.

Umah Bloodomen
18th Jul 2002, 06:09
I don't think Umah is quite Raziel's type but sure go ahead. :)

Lady Minerva
18th Jul 2002, 09:29
Just testing my signature image. Cool, huh?

Umah Bloodomen
19th Jul 2002, 01:53
However I feel you are going to get a response from the higher ups that periodically check the forums. Now. I had a tall sig and received this in the LoK Community chat:

Originally Posted by XCom
Time for reminder:

Signatures
Please note that signatures must be no larger than 150 pixels high x 450 pixels wide and have a file size no greater than 30KB. This size restriction applys to pictures and text. There can only be two lines of text included with a picture. No signature picture can include any copyrighted material, unless you can prove you hold said copyright or proof of permission from the copyright holder. Public domain pictures are acceptable. Signature pictures will not contain any material that is inappropriate. (see above) We or our forum leaders will have final determination as to what is appropriate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quick examination of this forum revealed the fact that some members go beyond permitted width and height limits. Please, adjust your signatures accordingly.

Thanks!

I had one of Umah sitting ontop of Blincoln's computer and (as you can see) I had to change mine to fit the requirements. :(
**cries because she can't pay homage to Blinc**

Vampmaster
19th Jul 2002, 18:22
In SR2, when Kain is explaining how Nupraptor corrupted the circles minds with suspisions of treatuary (sp?). Well I think this has made Kain paranoid, suspecting everyone of being traitors the second they even question him. This is what I think it means that he is corrupted. This is also why he will deal with treatuary with the severest of punishments.

BadGuysAlwaysWin
20th Jul 2002, 00:00
Actually, Nupraptor DOES infect the Circle because he believes one of them slew Ariel. Most likely, however, Kain's "madness" is that he does not live and die to maintain the balance, but rather, does what he personally feels is right.

Umah Bloodomen
20th Jul 2002, 02:36
Originally posted by Vampmaster
In SR2, when Kain is explaining how Nupraptor corrupted the circles minds with suspisions of treatuary (sp?). Well I think this has made Kain paranoid, suspecting everyone of being traitors the second they even question him. This is what I think it means that he is corrupted. This is also why he will deal with treatuary with the severest of punishments.

Treachery btw... ;)

Vampmaster
20th Jul 2002, 19:04
Originally posted by BadGuysAlwaysWin
Actually, Nupraptor DOES infect the Circle because he believes one of them slew Ariel. Most likely, however, Kain's "madness" is that he does not live and die to maintain the balance, but rather, does what he personally feels is right.

That's not madness, it's the sanest thing he does in the game. If he made the wrong decision (which I don't think he did), it was because of the "madness". Madness isn't something you do, it's a way that you think.

Azuriel
20th Jul 2002, 19:29
Kain saves an entire race from extinction, and prevents the demons from penetrating the primary realm. that is not a personal decision.

BadGuysAlwaysWin
20th Jul 2002, 20:14
I cannot help but think that Kain's decision to not sacrifice himself was not based on preventing the Hylden from entering Nosgoth - especially since he did not know about them. I already pointed out that all the selfish decisions Kain makes somehow turn out to be the CORRECT decision, but at the time that he makes them, they are selfish decisions nonetheless. The prime example of this is his damning of the Pillars. Although it was the correct choice, as it allowed Vampires to exist, who can now go back in time and FIX the problem, it was not made for the decision of ultimately saving everyone. Kain felt angry at the Humans and the Circle, for they had done nothing but manipulate him (Mortanius had him killed, Moebius had him basically kill his own species, and Ariel lied to him to have him wipe out the Circle). And if one had to choose examples of Races, give one Human that would be able to equal the great Vorador? Thus, Kain chose to damn the world of Humans, rather than to wipe out the world of Vampires. But since he WAS the last Vampire, this IS a case of sacrificing the many to save the one. Which is a selfish decision.

Umah Bloodomen
21st Jul 2002, 00:53
Let me ask you something. If I walked up to you and told you that you have to kill yourself for this reason, without going into detail about it, would you be so willing just to throw your future away along with everything you worked for prior to the moment of being asked?

I understand sacrifices need to be made, but no offense, I would certainly want to find out all the reasons why I supposedly "need" to terminate my own existence.

So it is selfish? Where the hell were the beloved humans to help Kain when he was being assassinated? Even when Kain returned as a vampire, his assassins still roamed freely. They weren't punished, they weren't murdered themselves/ They were still walking around, most likely commiting crimes and whatnot.

I most certainly would hold a grudge and put my existence before that of others in this sense, ESPECIALLY to seek out the answers of why I should not hold that grudge and eventually help humanity and Nosgoth. Obviously Nosgoth is a dog eat dog world and this is a classic example of Darwinism (survival of the fittest). Kain is "visibly" the fittest right now. If he sacrificed himself tomorrow, doesn't necessarily mean that Nosgoth will go back to being a "happy place". There are still manipulative beings around to contend with. Either Kain stays around to seek those beings out so that when the time comes to sacrifice himself (if that be the case) then him doing so will indeed have a benefit. I don't think Kain is an idiot, and therefore don't think he will take such a drastic leap if nothing good were to come of it. (Meaning his death didn't change a damned thing).

Vampmaster
22nd Jul 2002, 22:52
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that he can't make mistakes or rash decisions (such killing allies because of paranoia) because of the effects of Nupraptor corrupting his mind.

BadGuysAlwaysWin
23rd Jul 2002, 03:57
Actually, Kain knew exactly WHY he was being asked to sacrifice himself. And, honestly, when Ariel said "there is no cure for death, only release," I honestly felt that Kain knew that he would be given a chance to RETURN to death at the end of his mission, rather than the Abyss (the place the Vampires go when they die, according to Vorador). Thus, I think that Kain wasn't TRICKED, in that he thought he would be returned to life and at the last minute, the truth was SPRUNG on him. It was just that Kain did not KNOW that he was the Circle of Balance. Ariel did not feel the need to tell him this because Kain SOUGHT release. I feel that Kain made his decision for these reasons:
Kain was disgusted: Kain had seen the reality of Humanity. Good (Ottmar) was defeated by evil (the Nemesis), and even when Kain went back in time to change all this, evil still won (in the form of the Vampire Hunters. By the way, what do you think happened to Ottmar now? I say that, since Kain already knew the strengths of his army and his strategies, Ottmar and Willendorf were the first powers to fall to Kain's army at the end of BO1, in that 200 year conquering spree that he had). Kain thus felt that he was better than all the people that were to be "saved," and so decided to "save" himself.
Kain was a changed man: When Kain originally began the quest, he fully knew that he would die at the end. He also felt that Vampirism was a hideous curse. Over the course of his adventures, however, he met evil, horrible Humans, and righteous, just Vampires. In fact, Vampires were more heroic in BO1 than any of the Humans. Kain grew to enjoy life as a Vampire, and so, naturally changed his mind about sacrificing himself. He did not know, when he started, that his death was the KEY to restoring the Pillars; he had naturally assumed that it was to be his reward. And so, he decided to live.
Kain was power-hungry: With the extinction of the mighty Vampires, and the destruction of the Circle of Nine, Kain was the most powerful being on Nosgoth. With his newfound weapons and abilities, Kain was a match for any mortal army. His entire mortal life, he had sought power, and fought for power. Now, in death, he had finally achieved power, and absolute power at that. Why would he want to sacrifice this? As he had already indicated, Coorhagen was a dog-eat-dog place, and Kain had grown up as the perfect son of Coorhagen.
Kain was mad: I don't mean "angry" mad; I mean "Nupraptor" mad. Kain was mad from birth. The Madness manifested differently in each of the Circle Members, and seemed to alter the way they carried out their duties: Bane, Guardian of Nature, corrupted Nosgoth and created Dark Eden; Azimuth, Guardian of Dimensions, ripped the fabric of reality; Moebius, Guardian of Time, changed history; Mortanius, Guardian of Death, directly had someone killed and then resurrected him; Malek, Guardian of Conflict, hid himself away in a mountaintop castle while violence erupted everywhere; Dejoul, Guardian of Energy, distorted magic to create Dark Eden; Anacrothe, Guardian of States, disrupted the being of all creatures in Dark Eden; Nupraptor, Guardian of Mind, went mad and in turn made everyone else mad; and Kain, Guardian of Balance, chose himself above the Balance of the Pillars and of Nosgoth. Therefore, I think that Kain's insanity made all the other reasons I stated (which a regular Pillar of Balance would have disregarded) seem to justify his damning Nosgoth to maintain his own life.

Non-existent
23rd Jul 2002, 05:26
BadGuys:

I love this one:
Thus, I think that Kain wasn't TRICKED, in that he thought he would be returned to life and at the last minute, the truth was SPRUNG on him.
Actually, he was tricked, and quite expertly. Ariel said there was no cure for death, she never said anything about Vampirism, then she offers him the one thing to best manipulate him, hope. She tells him he will find 'release' from his curse if he cleanses the circle. Irony is that he does not seem to equate being dead and his vampirism as the same. No, Ariel is quite the deceiver and destroyer of balance herself. Love has no place in balance, neither does revenge, Ariel has both.

And to this:
Kain was mad: I don't mean "angry" mad; I mean "Nupraptor" mad. Kain was mad from birth. The Madness manifested differently in each of the Circle Members, and seemed to alter the way they carried out their duties: Bane, Guardian of Nature, corrupted Nosgoth and created Dark Eden; Azimuth, Guardian of Dimensions, ripped the fabric of reality; Moebius, Guardian of Time, changed history; Mortanius, Guardian of Death, directly had someone killed and then resurrected him; Malek, Guardian of Conflict, hid himself away in a mountaintop castle while violence erupted everywhere; Dejoul, Guardian of Energy, distorted magic to create Dark Eden; Anacrothe, Guardian of States, disrupted the being of all creatures in Dark Eden; Nupraptor, Guardian of Mind, went mad and in turn made everyone else mad; and Kain, Guardian of Balance, chose himself above the Balance of the Pillars and of Nosgoth. Therefore, I think that Kain's insanity made all the other reasons I stated (which a regular Pillar of Balance would have disregarded) seem to justify his damning Nosgoth to maintain his own life. No, no, no. The One with Morty is all wrong. No one said Morty could not kill others and even ressurect them, that may have been a habitual duty he performed from the beginning to learn the secrets of the dead, no one knows. Malek may have retreated, but that means nothing, it means he embodies conflict, it does not mean he has to be in the middle of it, in fact, Malek built himself a fortress and army, seems perfectly in line with what a Gurdian of Conflict would do to prepare for a siege.

Your list is only half complete, in that you list the effect, but not the cause. The effect was the misuse of the Pillars powers, the cause was the insanity making them hate Nosgoth and see it as their playtoy. Nupraptor's insanity was a deep hatred for the Circle and Nosgoth. Each Circle member, infected with his madness began to mistrust eachother and began to attack Nosgoth. The Misuse of the Pillars was effect, an aspect of an insanity that would demand their attacking Nosgoth no matter what. See, the madness did not manifest differently, in fact, it manifested quite uniformly, only the tools used were different. The madness was bringing pain, destruction, and death to Nosgoth. The tools were each of the Guardians' Pillars.

Mortanius is a unique case. There is no evidence of his use of his pillar to attack Nosgoth. Do not point at Kain and say, "Ah Ha!" because Kain was actually raised to do what Morty apparently saw no one else could do, cleanse the circle, that Kain was already a person that would bring suffering to others is quite apparent. Morty in fact seemed rather constrained in his insanity, except for one thing, he admits he is no longer sane. (Then there is the whole possession thing, which tends to put a damper on the relationship between Guardian and Pillar)


BadGuysAlwaysWin: I already pointed out that all the selfish decisions Kain makes somehow turn out to be the CORRECT decision, but at the time that he makes them, they are selfish decisions nonetheless. Think about this, could it be, despite his madness, Kain's wrong/selfish decisions are in fact his innate sense of balance manifesting itself despite his madness? Sure, he may not know his not killing himself was the right thing, but it does not mean the Pillar is not acting through him. Kain has an advantage no other Guardian had, he was raised insane from birth with no knowledge of his role as Guardian and the power it gives him. Then there is the dubious manner of the Court of Coorhagen, a cruel and vindictive court from what little we are told of it, that would make Kain seem only a little more extreme than his fellow noblemen. Such an upbringing may have caused the madness in him to be somewhat different.

Throughout each game it is never seen that he used the Pillars strength in any way, shape, or form. If anything it appears he never was given the benefit of fully developing the symbiotic link to his pillar, which makes it so that balance can still act through him. If he is making the right decisions despite his best efforts to be selfish then maybe he has not misused the Pillar at all and has been serving Balance unwitting from his birth. Something to think on.

Case in example:
and Kain, Guardian of Balance, chose himself above the Balance of the Pillars and of Nosgoth. Therefore, I think that Kain's insanity made all the other reasons I stated (which a regular Pillar of Balance would have disregarded) seem to justify his damning Nosgoth to maintain his own life It was selfish, but was he truly placing himself above balance, or was balance perhaps exerting enough influence on him to truly make him decide to embrace his vampirism? After all, any true balance guardian would have known through the balance itself that their death would not have served the balance, they would have felt it, if not known it (another indication that Ariel is not still part of the balance).

BadGuysAlwaysWin
23rd Jul 2002, 07:17
OK, real kwik cuz I had it all written out and accidently pressed a link and lost the WHOLE thing GRRRRR.


I love this one:

Way to go.


Actually, he was tricked, and quite expertly. Ariel said there was no cure for death, she never said anything about Vampirism, then she offers him the one thing to best manipulate him, hope. She tells him he will find 'release' from his curse if he cleanses the circle. Irony is that he does not seem to equate being dead and his vampirism as the same. No, Ariel is quite the deceiver and destroyer of balance herself. Love has no place in balance, neither does revenge, Ariel has both.

You would have to be pretty uneducated in vampire lore to not think that telling a vampire "there is no cure for death only release" isn't saying anything about vampirism. Also, Kain never ever EVER puts any differentiation between death and Vampirism, since he calls vampirism "unlife", which means "death". He can't call it death because Vamps die too. She doesn't say "die", she says "release", which likely means that he would return to a MORTAL death (Heaven or hell, and since Nosgoth is religious, he might think that he would enter Heaven due to the good he is doing by saving Nosgoth). Ariel doesn't deceive at all and definately destroys nothing. Since we don't know of any rules against love, that last sentence is also incorrect.


No, no, no. The One with Morty is all wrong. No one said Morty could not kill others and even ressurect them, that may have been a habitual duty he performed from the beginning to learn the secrets of the dead, no one knows. Malek may have retreated, but that means nothing, it means he embodies conflict, it does not mean he has to be in the middle of it, in fact, Malek built himself a fortress and army, seems perfectly in line with what a Gurdian of Conflict would do to prepare for a siege.

Explain to me how "no one knows", and yet you are so sure that I'm "all wrong"? That's a bit hypocritical. Either way, we know that Guardians get their powers from whatever their link with the Pillar is. And since each Pillar was originally meant to protect Nosgoth, the Pillar of Conflict would likely have to prevent CONFLICTS from erupting into war. Malek thus retreats to his Bastion instead of preventing the wars (the Nemesis).


Your list is only half complete, in that you list the effect, but not the cause. The effect was the misuse of the Pillars powers, the cause was the insanity making them hate Nosgoth and see it as their playtoy. Nupraptor's insanity was a deep hatred for the Circle and Nosgoth. Each Circle member, infected with his madness began to mistrust eachother and began to attack Nosgoth. The Misuse of the Pillars was effect, an aspect of an insanity that would demand their attacking Nosgoth no matter what. See, the madness did not manifest differently, in fact, it manifested quite uniformly, only the tools used were different. The madness was bringing pain, destruction, and death to Nosgoth. The tools were each of the Guardians' Pillars.

Anyone who doesnt know the cause of the Corruption shouldn't be in this discussion. Nupraptor's insanity is explained already, and its not a hatred. It's grief for Ariel's death and a SUSPICION that it was other Circle Members who murdered her. Their madness shapes out to be each member doing the OPPOSITE of what they are apparently their to do (don't say they all attack Nosgoth, because Malek and Mortanius don't, but they ARE insane. That means that Malek's retreat from conflict and Mortanius' resurrecting Kain would have to be the OPPOSITE of what they are meant to do).


Mortanius is a unique case. There is no evidence of his use of his pillar to attack Nosgoth. Do not point at Kain and say, "Ah Ha!" because Kain was actually raised to do what Morty apparently saw no one else could do, cleanse the circle, that Kain was already a person that would bring suffering to others is quite apparent. Morty in fact seemed rather constrained in his insanity, except for one thing, he admits he is no longer sane. (Then there is the whole possession thing, which tends to put a damper on the relationship between Guardian and Pillar)

Read above.


Think about this, could it be, despite his madness, Kain's wrong/selfish decisions are in fact his innate sense of balance manifesting itself despite his madness? Sure, he may not know his not killing himself was the right thing, but it does not mean the Pillar is not acting through him. Kain has an advantage no other Guardian had, he was raised insane from birth with no knowledge of his role as Guardian and the power it gives him. Then there is the dubious manner of the Court of Coorhagen, a cruel and vindictive court from what little we are told of it, that would make Kain seem only a little more extreme than his fellow noblemen. Such an upbringing may have caused the madness in him to be somewhat different.

I just said that. Look at it like this: if you punch a guy because he ran and bumped into you, and later found out that he was running from a bank robbery, you DIDN'T punch him to stop a burgler, you PUNCHED HIM because he BUMPED INTO YOU. Kain finds out LATER that what he did was good. At the TIME, however, he is doing it for HIMSELF. Just because it becomes the RIGHT decision doesn't make it the HONEST one. Also, his upbringing as a Coorhagen noble has no bearing on his insanity. He just grows up with the times, and makes bids for power. It's his MADNESS that causes him to place this above the welfare of the world and to not care of his fellow man.


Throughout each game it is never seen that he used the Pillars strength in any way, shape, or form. If anything it appears he never was given the benefit of fully developing the symbiotic link to his pillar, which makes it so that balance can still act through him. If he is making the right decisions despite his best efforts to be selfish then maybe he has not misused the Pillar at all and has been serving Balance unwitting from his birth. Something to think on.

And? The Pillars are DESTROYED. Besides, quite possibly, the power of the Pillar of Balance is to restore the Balance. Perhaps KAIN was the only one who could kill the other Pillars because HE was the Pillar of Balance. Maybe THIS was the power of the Pillar, to shape the Pillars and Nosgoth as needed. Kain abuses this without even knowing, then.


It was selfish, but was he truly placing himself above balance, or was balance perhaps exerting enough influence on him to truly make him decide to embrace his vampirism? After all, any true balance guardian would have known through the balance itself that their death would not have served the balance, they would have felt it, if not known it (another indication that Ariel is not still part of the balance).

We know that the Pillar of Balance was corrupt because it is CRACKED and BLACK, showing that Kain is also tainted with MADNESS. THAT is the irony, since he does the opposite of what he was meant to do since birth (the opposite of the Pillar's essence, since that apparently is the nature of the Madness). Kain's death would restore the Pillars as far as anyone knew. Kain does not choose to live because he thinks it won't restore Balance; he is quite plain, actually. "Once I embraced my powers I realized that Vorador was correct. We are gods - dark gods - and it is our duty to thin the herd." Thus, as I pointed out, he LIKES being a Vampire now and since he is the STRONGEST being in the world, he decides to keep living.

Non-existent
23rd Jul 2002, 18:55
BadGuys:
You would have to be pretty uneducated in vampire lore to not think that telling a vampire "there is no cure for death only release" isn't saying anything about vampirism. Also, Kain never ever EVER puts any differentiation between death and Vampirism, since he calls vampirism "unlife", which means "death". He can't call it death because Vamps die too. She doesn't say "die", she says "release", which likely means that he would return to a MORTAL death (Heaven or hell, and since Nosgoth is religious, he might think that he would enter Heaven due to the good he is doing by saving Nosgoth). Ariel doesn't deceive at all and definately destroys nothing. Since we don't know of any rules against love, that last sentence is also incorrect.
Nope, you'd have to be a recently resurrected mortal who wanted revenge and now wants to be alive again. Kain probably did want to be alive, if he wanted death he could have at any time. Notice how he does not jump in a lake, or drink some poisoned blood, or any of the multitude of things that can kill him, and quite quickly at that?

To quote BO1 directly:
Kain: Only when all the Pillars were restored, did Ariel claim my curse would end.

He may very well be holding out for a cure even though he was told one does not exist. If all he wants is to die he can at about any moment he so chooses. Ironically even though he is told by Morty that to truly get revenge he needs to go after the Pillar Guardians he does not mention revenge once more, meaning he abandoned it for a cure. Ariel did trick him, she gave him hope telling him that if he killed Nup and the others he would find peace from his torment, yet being Kain it sure does not sound like he equates peace with death now does it?

I am not saying he did not know he would find death as the release, the game happens to breeze over that. The fact that he looks for a cure when he is not truly immortal though suggests that he may have been looking for some other answer than death, and he was most assuredly tricked into ridding the Circle Members, the trick started the moment he was assassinated so Morty could offer to raise him up. Ariel continued the deception with neglecting to tell important facts, she did not have to tell him about him being Balance Guardian, but there were many things she could have told him, such as the Oracle being Moebius, she knew, she did not tell, he could have lopped Moebius' head quite quickly, saved the world from much pain. Ariel is as much an instrument in setting Kain up with his terrible decision as Moebius, Hash, and the others were.


Explain to me how "no one knows", and yet you are so sure that I'm "all wrong"? That's a bit hypocritical. Either way, we know that Guardians get their powers from whatever their link with the Pillar is. And since each Pillar was originally meant to protect Nosgoth, the Pillar of Conflict would likely have to prevent CONFLICTS from erupting into war. Malek thus retreats to his Bastion instead of preventing the wars (the Nemesis).
WTF? Did you just go off on a tangent? Yes, yes you did. I said the one with Morty is wrong, and it is, Morty holds sway over death, his ressurecting people does not automatically make him misuse his power. Morty has done more than that, or else his binding Malek to his armor would have been misuse because he made it so Malek's soul can never go to the underworld.

As for Malek: Prevent conflict? HA! Have you even seen what Malek does? He spreads as much conflict as he prevents, or do you not remember inumerable deaths of vampires and humans in his 'righteous' quest to rid Nosgoth of its Evils? Malek does about anything but 'prevent' conflict.


Anyone who doesnt know the cause of the Corruption shouldn't be in this discussion. Nupraptor's insanity is explained already, and its not a hatred. It's grief for Ariel's death and a SUSPICION that it was other Circle Members who murdered her. Their madness shapes out to be each member doing the OPPOSITE of what they are apparently their to do (don't say they all attack Nosgoth, because Malek and Mortanius don't, but they ARE insane. That means that Malek's retreat from conflict and Mortanius' resurrecting Kain would have to be the OPPOSITE of what they are meant to do).
Don't even try that pathetic attempt to say I do not know the cause of the Circle's madness. You obviously misunderstood me. I very well know Nupraptor caused the Circles' members to go insane but it was not the simple misuse of the pillars that made them corrupt, it was that the corruption of Nup's mental blast made the Circle members fill with pain and hatred and thus they misused their pillars. They could have used their Pillars like they always did and the Pillars would have been cracked, because the Pillars reflect the mental and physical states of their Guardians, not thier use of.

As for Nup's insanity:
Kain: Nupraptor, with his blind act of vengeance threatened to destroy all of Nosgoth.

Ariel: My murder at the hands of this beast drove my love Nupraptor mad. Now he spreads misery and pain among the Circle, crumbling the very foundation of Nosgoth.

Nupraptor: Come, Kain . . . come share my pain . .
Kain: She spoke of his self-mutilation, sewing his eyes and lips shut to deny the outside world. Fueled by despair and hopelessness, he turned his magic on the Circle, infecting their minds with his madness.

So, let us see, no, it is not suspicion. It is Pain, Misery, Suffering and Hatred, something Nupraptor felt at the death of Ariel and something he spread to all others. Paranoia may be included, but, let's face it, Paranoia is not going to suddenly make someone do the opposite of what they are meant to. Hatred, Pain, Misery, and the want to spread it sure will though.


I just said that. Look at it like this: if you punch a guy because he ran and bumped into you, and later found out that he was running from a bank robbery, you DIDN'T punch him to stop a burgler, you PUNCHED HIM because he BUMPED INTO YOU. Kain finds out LATER that what he did was good. At the TIME, however, he is doing it for HIMSELF. Just because it becomes the RIGHT decision doesn't make it the HONEST one. Also, his upbringing as a Coorhagen noble has no bearing on his insanity. He just grows up with the times, and makes bids for power. It's his MADNESS that causes him to place this above the welfare of the world and to not care of his fellow man.

No, actually you did not just say what I said. I said that despite everything he was still serving the balance unwittingly despite wanting to be selfish. You just said it was coincidence. There is a difference. You say that even though it turns out right it is coincidence and ok, I say the Pillar is still making him serve the Balance in the only way it can to eventually right itself. Difference is that one leaves Free Will completely in Kain's hands (your version) and the other means Destiny is still using Kain as a pawn (my version).

As for Coorhagen: Should I find the quotes of Coorhagen again? You think that was a place where he would have cared about his fellow man? Let me do that.


Kain: Coorhagen - my home - the finest city in all of Nosgoth, rich in vanity and conceit. I had no delusions as to the welcome I would receive.

Kain: Ottmar slumped on his throne like a rag doll, his beard matted with the tears of his own self-pity. In my court, he would have long since been usurped by one stronger, but in Willendorf they worshipped him, even in his weakness.
And let us not forget the most important thing:
Kain: Vae Victus - suffering to the conquered. Ironic that now I was the one suffering.
Then there is numerous quotes I can show where Kain literally revels in the act of killing and bloodshed.

With Paranoia, wait, no, you said Suspicion, a much weaker form of Paranoia, anways, with Suspicion Kain would not revel in Carnage and he would not place himself about the world, after all, Suspicion may cause him to work harder to protect the world suspecting just about all things of working against balance. Hatred, Misery, and the spreading of it would make a person place themself above all others. And, in case you cannot tell, Coorhagen, from the sounds of it, is the perfect court to raise a person who is quite insane into a model that can survive in the world, because if they cannot survive in a court where it is dog eat dog they will get replaced.


And? The Pillars are DESTROYED. Besides, quite possibly, the power of the Pillar of Balance is to restore the Balance. Perhaps KAIN was the only one who could kill the other Pillars because HE was the Pillar of Balance. Maybe THIS was the power of the Pillar, to shape the Pillars and Nosgoth as needed. Kain abuses this without even knowing, then.
This whole argument does not fly. The Pillars were restored, they were not destroyed until he refused to die. Are you saying that nothing is wrong until he chose? Because, if he is the only one that can restore the Pillars he is still serving Balance as it was meant to be served so by your logic his Pillar should not appear corrupt until he refuses to die. The fact is, if the only way to restore the Balance was by killing the corrupt Guardians then he never abused his the power of the Pillar of Balance until he made his choice to not die. So, Kain actually serves the Pillar, yet more, and does not abuse the power until the very end upon which he makes his act with full knowledge of consequence. Does not sound like he ever placed himself above the balance until the end there, but in fact, it sure sounds like his and the Balance Pillars purposes ran parallel. Now, why would the Pillar be corrupt from the word go, before he can even fully form conscious thought then? Why, could it be because maybe the misuse of the Pillar is nothing but an effect of the wanting to spread Pain throughout the world? Why, yes, yes it could.

Your Pillar argument is faulty. I will explain more in a moment, after addressing this quote by you:

We know that the Pillar of Balance was corrupt because it is CRACKED and BLACK, showing that Kain is also tainted with MADNESS. THAT is the irony, since he does the opposite of what he was meant to do since birth (the opposite of the Pillar's essence, since that apparently is the nature of the Madness). Kain's death would restore the Pillars as far as anyone knew. Kain does not choose to live because he thinks it won't restore Balance; he is quite plain, actually. "Once I embraced my powers I realized that Vorador was correct. We are gods - dark gods - and it is our duty to thin the herd." Thus, as I pointed out, he LIKES being a Vampire now and since he is the STRONGEST being in the world, he decides to keep living.

And, I never said he did not like being a vampire. Misuse of the Pillar would require more than the intent to do the opposite, it would require truly doing the opposite. He can intend to throw the world out of Balance all he wants, but if he actually brings the world into Balance at all then he is not misusing the Pillar and only intending to. Intent has little to with it in your Pillar argument, and that is why you are faulty in it.

You Pillar argument hinges on that they actually do the opposite of what they are meant to to abuse the Pillar and thus be corrupt. This means that until they abuse the Pillars powers the Pillar should not be corrupt. (If you do not think that is what your argument is saying read over it again)

Kain can intend to do whatever he likes, but if he serves the Balance he is not abusing the Pillars power so under your defintion of the insanity it should not be corrupt. Now, if infact he is actually filled with a deep abiding dislike for Nosgoth (which is evidence when he says he cares nothing for Nosgoth to Ariel) then that might be different. The Pillar was corrupt long before it was abused, but you say the insanity makes them do the opposite of what they would do, which does not mean intending to do the opposite, it means the willful abuse of the Pillars power. Kain does that only once, at the end. Up to that point he is serving the Balance, by restoring the Pillar, but the Pillar is still cracked. Why? Because he is Insane you will say, and I will agree, but, sadly that does not go with everything else you have been saying.


Their madness shapes out to be each member doing the OPPOSITE of what they are apparently their to do
"madness shapes out to be each DOING the OPPOSITE of what they are apparently there to do" Intent is not a part of that equation. That means that despite intent they can end up still serving the Pillar faithfully.

The real insanity is that they all give up serving Nosgoth as a whole, more than just the Pillars, and then they cap that off with making Nosgoth suffer. What was the one common theme in all case of Circle members and their abuse of Nosgoth? They brought Pain, Suffering, and Death. Even had they not used the Pillars to do it the Pillars would have cracked. It is not that they were made to use their Pillars in a contrary manner, it was that they came to attack Nosgoth and the Life on Nosgoth. They were no longer the Protectors of Nosgoth, but its attackers. That is opposite, true, but they did not need to abuse the Pillars to be considered so or to have the Pillars crack. The Pillars became a tool, something they used but not something that the misuse of determined they were insane. By your logic if the Pillar is not misused the Guardian is not corrupt. Kain, who up until the end of the game, does not misuse his Pillar, and it is corrupt. Saying he is insane to defend your argument does not work, because your defintion of insanity is doing the opposite of what they were meant to with the Pillar. So Kain's Pillar should not be corrupted, until the end, where no matter his choice he cannot serve Balance, but up until that point he is doing what he is meant to by restoring the Pillars and bringing back Balance.

BadGuysAlwaysWin
23rd Jul 2002, 20:35
Nope, you'd have to be a recently resurrected mortal who wanted revenge and now wants to be alive again. Kain probably did want to be alive, if he wanted death he could have at any time. Notice how he does not jump in a lake, or drink some poisoned blood, or any of the multitude of things that can kill him, and quite quickly at that?

I meant that YOU are unfamiliar with vampiric lore. When a Vampire dies, his soul doesn't get the same fate as a normal person; rather, the soul becomes NOTHINGNESS, oblivion. zip. zilch. That person ceases to be. We know Nosgoth is religious, and thus, by release, Kain the just-fallen noble would probably have understood it to be a RELEASE from his vampiric unlife, rather than OBLIVION. All those other things are OBLIVION, not RELEASE.


Kain: Only when all the Pillars were restored, did Ariel claim my curse would end.


He may very well be holding out for a cure even though he was told one does not exist. If all he wants is to die he can at about any moment he so chooses. Ironically even though he is told by Morty that to truly get revenge he needs to go after the Pillar Guardians he does not mention revenge once more, meaning he abandoned it for a cure. Ariel did trick him, she gave him hope telling him that if he killed Nup and the others he would find peace from his torment, yet being Kain it sure does not sound like he equates peace with death now does it?

Once again, this is release. He may have been damned, but he still had an eternity ahead of him (in Hell), and with these actions, it isn't foolish to believe that he might just gain entry into Heaven. The CURSE of a Vampire isn't over when you KILL the Vampire. The CURSE ends when the Vampirism ends and the person returns to the grave.


I am not saying he did not know he would find death as the release, the game happens to breeze over that. The fact that he looks for a cure when he is not truly immortal though suggests that he may have been looking for some other answer than death, and he was most assuredly tricked into ridding the Circle Members, the trick started the moment he was assassinated so Morty could offer to raise him up. Ariel continued the deception with neglecting to tell important facts, she did not have to tell him about him being Balance Guardian, but there were many things she could have told him, such as the Oracle being Moebius, she knew, she did not tell, he could have lopped Moebius' head quite quickly, saved the world from much pain. Ariel is as much an instrument in setting Kain up with his terrible decision as Moebius, Hash, and the others were.

Nosgoth is a world that is rich with Vampire lore, so I am guessing that an educated noble like Kain would know ALL about Vampires. And Mortanius explains to Anacrothe WHY he had Kain killed: to cleanse the Circle. Now, think about it. Kain was killed by A HANDFUL OF REGULAR MERCENARIES as a Human. And as a Vampire, he is able to DESTROY THE CIRCLE OF NINE. Do you think that he would have been able to accomplish this as a Human?? And at the beginning of the quest, do you think that Kain would have been strong enough to tackle Moebius? Trying to use the way the video game is created for playability against a character is rather bland. That's like saying that all RPG villains are stupid because they don't attack the hero with all their might at the beginning of the game.


WTF? Did you just go off on a tangent? Yes, yes you did. I said the one with Morty is wrong, and it is, Morty holds sway over death, his ressurecting people does not automatically make him misuse his power. Morty has done more than that, or else his binding Malek to his armor would have been misuse because he made it so Malek's soul can never go to the underworld.

And which tangent was this? I pointed out your hypocrisy, and went on to explain about Mortanius. His binding Malek's soul is not altering anything. All he does is change Malek's body. Malek was NOT killed at the end of his fight with Vorador. And since Kain was able to enter Hell AGAIN, this means that it IS possible to enter Hell without having to die. So how are you so sure that "Morty has done more than that"? Or that resurrection isn't against the rules of the Pillar of Death? My basis is the fact that all the Guardians DO act opposite of how their Pillar would intend. I am extending this to include Mortanius, the Guardian of Death. Just because you disagree doesn't mean I'm wrong.


As for Malek: Prevent conflict? HA! Have you even seen what Malek does? He spreads as much conflict as he prevents, or do you not remember inumerable deaths of vampires and humans in his 'righteous' quest to rid Nosgoth of its Evils? Malek does about anything but 'prevent' conflict.

First of all, the Circle of Nine CREATED the Sarafan in ORDER for them to wipe out the Vampires. And at the time, Malek was NOT the "Pillar of Conflict". While there is debate on whether his "rebirth" as the bodyless Malek may have been when the Pillar chose him, all we know is that "he came to embody the spirit of the Pillar of Conflict". no "inumerable [sp] humans" died in his quest. And notice that AFTER he became Pillar of Guardian, there WERE no wars. The Circle wanted the Vampires gone. This wasn't a "conflict" that they had to appease, but a "genocide" that they created. These are two completely different terms (as an Armenian, I know this well).


Don't even try that pathetic attempt to say I do not know the cause of the Circle's madness. You obviously misunderstood me. I very well know Nupraptor caused the Circles' members to go insane but it was not the simple misuse of the pillars that made them corrupt, it was that the corruption of Nup's mental blast made the Circle members fill with pain and hatred and thus they misused their pillars. They could have used their Pillars like they always did and the Pillars would have been cracked, because the Pillars reflect the mental and physical states of their Guardians, not thier use of.

Apparently you didn't understand ME. I never said it was the misuse of the Pillars that corrupted the Guardians. I gave an ingame quote about how the Pillars deteriorated with the increasing dementia of the Guardians. No where did I even try to say that it was the misuse of the Pillars that caused the Guardians to go mad.


So, let us see, no, it is not suspicion. It is Pain, Misery, Suffering and Hatred, something Nupraptor felt at the death of Ariel and something he spread to all others. Paranoia may be included, but, let's face it, Paranoia is not going to suddenly make someone do the opposite of what they are meant to. Hatred, Pain, Misery, and the want to spread it sure will though.

It's not suspicion? Hmm... As I recall from Kain himself in Soul Reaver 2...


At the moment of my first cry, Ariel's beloved - the Guardian Nupraptor - finds her corpse. Wracked with grief and tormented with suspicions of treachery, Nupraptor plunges into a madness which overflows and infects all of the Guardians, who are symbiotically bound. Including me. The repercussions of Ariel's assassination were expertly calculated... The entire Circle descends into madness, and I am tainted at the moment of my birth - instantly renderedincapable of fulfilling the role destiny has prepared for me.

Did you notice how it says "wracked with grief and tormented with suspicions of treachery"?


No, actually you did not just say what I said. I said that despite everything he was still serving the balance unwittingly despite wanting to be selfish. You just said it was coincidence. There is a difference. You say that even though it turns out right it is coincidence and ok, I say the Pillar is still making him serve the Balance in the only way it can to eventually right itself. Difference is that one leaves Free Will completely in Kain's hands (your version) and the other means Destiny is still using Kain as a pawn (my version).

Well, since there is absolutely nothing in the game that ever supports the idea that the Pillar FORCES its will on the Balance Guardian even despite Nupraptor's Insanity, I'll just leave you to keep on thinking your version.


Then there is numerous quotes I can show where Kain literally revels in the act of killing and bloodshed.


With Paranoia, wait, no, you said Suspicion, a much weaker form of Paranoia, anways, with Suspicion Kain would not revel in Carnage and he would not place himself about the world, after all, Suspicion may cause him to work harder to protect the world suspecting just about all things of working against balance. Hatred, Misery, and the spreading of it would make a person place themself above all others. And, in case you cannot tell, Coorhagen, from the sounds of it, is the perfect court to raise a person who is quite insane into a model that can survive in the world, because if they cannot survive in a court where it is dog eat dog they will get replaced.

Good for you, so can I. The Protectors of Hope are destroying the world, King William the Just is murdering thousands as the Nemesis, plague runs rampant across the land, thieves and brigands infest the countryside, Ottmar the Lion of Willendorf grieves in his city, and you expect Kain to have been raised any differently with or without Coorhagen or his madness? You need to do a little research into middle-ages nobility. They were ALL soldiers, and the very IDEA of the Knight was seeking out your opponent in glorious combat. Kain was a Knight as well (as his armor matches those of the Knights of Willendorf). You should also check up on warlords and conquerors of those times, and see which ones tried to AVOID bloodshed. I, for one, can name at least a dozen ancient warlords who reveled in death and came up with quite creative methods of murder. And we are talking about Nupraptor's suspicion, which causes him to go mad, which causes the rest of the Guardians to also go mad. Get it now?


This whole argument does not fly. The Pillars were restored, they were not destroyed until he refused to die. Are you saying that nothing is wrong until he chose? Because, if he is the only one that can restore the Pillars he is still serving Balance as it was meant to be served so by your logic his Pillar should not appear corrupt until he refuses to die. The fact is, if the only way to restore the Balance was by killing the corrupt Guardians then he never abused his the power of the Pillar of Balance until he made his choice to not die. So, Kain actually serves the Pillar, yet more, and does not abuse the power until the very end upon which he makes his act with full knowledge of consequence. Does not sound like he ever placed himself above the balance until the end there, but in fact, it sure sounds like his and the Balance Pillars purposes ran parallel. Now, why would the Pillar be corrupt from the word go, before he can even fully form conscious thought then? Why, could it be because maybe the misuse of the Pillar is nothing but an effect of the wanting to spread Pain throughout the world? Why, yes, yes it could.

I explained before, this time I'll put it in bold and underline it for you. KAIN IS SELFISH, YET THIS SELFISHNESS OFTEN COINCIDES WITH WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE, WHETHER BY COINCIDENCE OR BY DESIGN OF PEOPLE SUCH AS MORTANIUS. The corruption of the Pillar of Balance was because Kain was driven insane at birth, or as KAIN HIMSELF says,


The entire Circle descends into madness, and I am tainted at the moment of my birth - instantly rendered incapable of fulfilling the role destiny has prepared for me.

The role he was to play was sacrificing himself for the Balance. He was INCAPABLE of this because he was selfish, which was caused by his madness. You can cry "Coorhagen" all you want, but remember that Hash'ak'gik had expertly calculated the effects. Driving the Circle mad would destroy the protection of Nosgoth, and thus Coorhagen would descend into a den of dogs just as Kain was being raised. It STILL goes back to the betrayal of the Circle.


And, I never said he did not like being a vampire. Misuse of the Pillar would require more than the intent to do the opposite, it would require truly doing the opposite. He can intend to throw the world out of Balance all he wants, but if he actually brings the world into Balance at all then he is not misusing the Pillar and only intending to. Intent has little to with it in your Pillar argument, and that is why you are faulty in it.

And you are the expert on how the Pillars works, even though that hasn't been revealed yet? I never speak of intent or action. I say that the Pillars are corrupted when the members are driven MAD. Anything after that is simply a RESULT of said madness. Kain can intend to dress up like a woman for all the Pillar of Balance, cares, because he is still mad and that is the reason for the Pillar's corruption.


You Pillar argument hinges on that they actually do the opposite of what they are meant to to abuse the Pillar and thus be corrupt. This means that until they abuse the Pillars powers the Pillar should not be corrupt. (If you do not think that is what your argument is saying read over it again)

Thanks for explaining to me what my argument is. And since I have repeatedly said that THE GUARDIANS ARE CORRUPT BECAUSE NUPRAPTOR MADE THEM ALL INSANE I really don't know where you're getting this whole intent/cause thing from. What they do AFTER they are insane is because they ARE insane. So... what are you talking about?


Kain can intend to do whatever he likes, but if he serves the Balance he is not abusing the Pillars power so under your defintion of the insanity it should not be corrupt. Now, if infact he is actually filled with a deep abiding dislike for Nosgoth (which is evidence when he says he cares nothing for Nosgoth to Ariel) then that might be different. The Pillar was corrupt long before it was abused, but you say the insanity makes them do the opposite of what they would do, which does not mean intending to do the opposite, it means the willful abuse of the Pillars power. Kain does that only once, at the end. Up to that point he is serving the Balance, by restoring the Pillar, but the Pillar is still cracked. Why? Because he is Insane you will say, and I will agree, but, sadly that does not go with everything else you have been saying.

Buddy, you have to quit trying to tell ME what I'm saying as a basis for YOUR arguments. ONCE AGAIN, THE GUARDIANS ARE CORRUPT BECAUSE NUPRAPTOR MADE THEM ALL INSANE. They aren't corrupt because they INTEND to do evil or that they actually DO evil, it's because they are INSANE and thus can't HELP it. The Pillars wouldn't choose evil people or insane people. Kain is already BORN and CHOSEN when he goes insane. The rest are already there. As I never ever talked about how their ACTIONS cause the Pillars to crack, I will again ignore the rest of this paragraph.


"madness shapes out to be each DOING the OPPOSITE of what they are apparently there to do" Intent is not a part of that equation. That means that despite intent they can end up still serving the Pillar faithfully.

I'm seeing a pattern here... ugh... Read my paragraph above.


The real insanity is that they all give up serving Nosgoth as a whole, more than just the Pillars, and then they cap that off with making Nosgoth suffer. What was the one common theme in all case of Circle members and their abuse of Nosgoth? They brought Pain, Suffering, and Death. Even had they not used the Pillars to do it the Pillars would have cracked. It is not that they were made to use their Pillars in a contrary manner, it was that they came to attack Nosgoth and the Life on Nosgoth. They were no longer the Protectors of Nosgoth, but its attackers. That is opposite, true, but they did not need to abuse the Pillars to be considered so or to have the Pillars crack. The Pillars became a tool, something they used but not something that the misuse of determined they were insane. By your logic if the Pillar is not misused the Guardian is not corrupt. Kain, who up until the end of the game, does not misuse his Pillar, and it is corrupt. Saying he is insane to defend your argument does not work, because your defintion of insanity is doing the opposite of what they were meant to with the Pillar. So Kain's Pillar should not be corrupted, until the end, where no matter his choice he cannot serve Balance, but up until that point he is doing what he is meant to by restoring the Pillars and bringing back Balance.

OK... As the Protectors of Hope, their duty was to guard the land, ensure peace, and protect hope. Now, what would the opposite of this be? That's right... Attack the land, cause strife, and destroy hope. Which is why they are now called the Destroyers of Hope. Each Guardian INDIVIDUALLY accomplishes this in different ways, and each way is the OPPOSITE of what the Pillar would intend. Bane twists nature instead of guarding it. Malek allows conflict instead of stopping it. Mortanius raises the dead instead of keeping them. Nupraptor causes insanity instead of healing it. And Kain damns the world instead of saving it. See the pattern there? They ALL cause grief because that is the OPPOSITE of what the Pillars are MEANT to do. But each does it in their own way, which is the OPPOSITE of what their individual Pillars would intend. And the definition of normal insanity isn't just doing the opposite of what a person would want, but from their ACTIONS, we can HYPOTHESIZE that the EFFECT of the insanity is doing the opposite of what the Pillars would want. Kain's Pillar is cracked because he IS insane. The entire game, his own desires coincide with what the Pillar needs done, but he doesn't DO IT for the Pillars. We know that because at the end, when his desires and that of the Pillar differ, he chooses himself. THAT is why the Pillar was corrupt, because he was insane. What you do when you are insane doesn't effect the Pillars anymore because you already ARE insane and they already ARE corrupt. They don't get MORE corrupt. They already ARE corrupt.

Non-existent
26th Jul 2002, 03:43
I meant that YOU are unfamiliar with vampiric lore. When a Vampire dies, his soul doesn't get the same fate as a normal person; rather, the soul becomes NOTHINGNESS, oblivion. zip. zilch. That person ceases to be. We know Nosgoth is religious, and thus, by release, Kain the just-fallen noble would probably have understood it to be a RELEASE from his vampiric unlife, rather than OBLIVION. All those other things are OBLIVION, not RELEASE.
Again you attempt to insult me. Please refrain. As you yourself addressed, I was expressing a possible view of Kain's knowledge of vampires, which may cause him to hope for something besides death. It is very easy for you to say I am not familiar with Vampire Lore when you have not even found out what I actually know. I am very familiar with Vampire Lore.

Apparently you are not. The term Oblivion must be replace with Damnation. Oblivion is not the same. Oh, but wait:

Once again, this is release. He may have been damned, but he still had an eternity ahead of him (in Hell), and with these actions, it isn't foolish to believe that he might just gain entry into Heaven. The CURSE of a Vampire isn't over when you KILL the Vampire. The CURSE ends when the Vampirism ends and the person returns to the grave.
Oh, I see, either you are referring to Hell like it was/is (I am not quite familiar with the current belief) for the Hebrews as an empty Abyss where you are locked for an eternity away from God, or you are being contradictory. And the curse does sometimes end on death, depends on the author and how Biblical they get.

We can tell Kain does not care about Hell, because he actually says, “I didn’t care if I was in Heaven or Hell - all I wanted was to kill my assassins.” Sure does not seem to care there.


Nosgoth is a world that is rich with Vampire lore, so I am guessing that an educated noble like Kain would know ALL about Vampires. And Mortanius explains to Anacrothe WHY he had Kain killed: to cleanse the Circle. Now, think about it. Kain was killed by A HANDFUL OF REGULAR MERCENARIES as a Human. And as a Vampire, he is able to DESTROY THE CIRCLE OF NINE. Do you think that he would have been able to accomplish this as a Human?? And at the beginning of the quest, do you think that Kain would have been strong enough to tackle Moebius? Trying to use the way the video game is created for playability against a character is rather bland. That's like saying that all RPG villains are stupid because they don't attack the hero with all their might at the beginning of the game.

You are guessing Kain was versed in vampire lore, you mean the same lore written by the Circle and the Serafan? And to suggest that Kain would “know ALL about vampires”. Kain actually seems like the person who would know the most popular tales, like Janos Audron, and the weaknesses of a Vampire. The damnation thing, well, he already stated that all he cared about was revenge, not Hell, not Heaven.

As for taking Moeb. Yes, he could have. You do not think so? Why not? He just took on Malek and lived in a head to head battle. Moeb is not the fighter Malek is. Moeb is a cowardly little man who runs away every chance he gets after tricking people. Notice how Kain killed Moeb with extreme ease once he cornered him? If he had gone after him in the Oracle cave two probable things would have happened: 1.) Kain would have lopped off Moeb’s head. 2.) Moeb woulda run and Kain would have possibly had to face Malek again.

As for finding Vorador, before you bring it up, Ariel would have know about him as well, no way she could not have known, her predecessor was killed by Vorador after all, and she knew why Malek was damned.


And which tangent was this? I pointed out your hypocrisy, and went on to explain about Mortanius. His binding Malek's soul is not altering anything. All he does is change Malek's body. Malek was NOT killed at the end of his fight with Vorador. And since Kain was able to enter Hell AGAIN, this means that it IS possible to enter Hell without having to die. So how are you so sure that "Morty has done more than that"? Or that resurrection isn't against the rules of the Pillar of Death? My basis is the fact that all the Guardians DO act opposite of how their Pillar would intend. I am extending this to include Mortanius, the Guardian of Death. Just because you disagree doesn't mean I'm wrong.
The tangent was that you went on talking about Malek when I talked of Morty. You went on to say I was wrong about Malek in great detail. I talked of Morty, you talked of Malek, that is a tangent.

As for Hypocrisy, let me explain why you are the hypocrite in this situation, you may find it amusing.

Morty killed Kain, resurrected him, and you say that is against the Pillar. Morty killed Malek, resurrects him, and you say it is fine. Both are the exact same thing. Morty kills Malek’s mortal shell, which is what death is, and places the soul in a shell that makes him immortal. He does the same thing to Kain, but uses Kain’s old mortal shell instead of a suit of armor.

That is hypocritical to say that Kain’s murder and having his soul returned from death is different from Malek’s. Both of them had to die to have their souls returned to bodies. Morty was not acting against his Pillar 500 years ago with Malek? Did the rules mysteriously change?


First of all, the Circle of Nine CREATED the Sarafan in ORDER for them to wipe out the Vampires. And at the time, Malek was NOT the "Pillar of Conflict". While there is debate on whether his "rebirth" as the bodyless Malek may have been when the Pillar chose him, all we know is that "he came to embody the spirit of the Pillar of Conflict". no "inumerable [sp] humans" died in his quest. And notice that AFTER he became Pillar of Guardian, there WERE no wars. The Circle wanted the Vampires gone. This wasn't a "conflict" that they had to appease, but a "genocide" that they created. These are two completely different terms (as an Armenian, I know this well).

I will have to defer to warpsavant here. In his interview with Ms. Hennig she answered this.

Now, I tentatively say that Malek was born the Guardian and remained one, because I believe she confirmed that the three remaining Guardians were Malek, Morty, and Moeb, which would leave six dead at Vorador’s hands.

As for Innumerable humans, let me quote SK’s site: “In "life"(picture left), Malek was known as a ruthless and cold blooded murderer by enemy generals and, particularly, by the vampires.” Now, please, explain to me how humans who are enemy generals and not vampires would not think him a cold blooded killer unless he killed many humans in Cold Blood?


Apparently you didn't understand ME. I never said it was the misuse of the Pillars that corrupted the Guardians. I gave an ingame quote about how the Pillars deteriorated with the increasing dementia of the Guardians. No where did I even try to say that it was the misuse of the Pillars that caused the Guardians to go mad.
I did misunderstand you, because your argument sounded like this: The Pillars are corrupt because they are misused. The clarification is appreciated.


It's not suspicion? Hmm... As I recall from Kain himself in Soul Reaver 2...

Kain: At the moment of my first cry, Ariel's beloved - the Guardian Nupraptor - finds her corpse. Wracked with grief and tormented with suspicions of treachery, Nupraptor plunges into a madness which overflows and infects all of the Guardians, who are symbiotically bound. Including me. The repercussions of Ariel's assassination were expertly calculated... The entire Circle descends into madness, and I am tainted at the moment of my birth - instantly renderedincapable of fulfilling the role destiny has prepared for me.

Did you notice how it says "wracked with grief and tormented with suspicions of treachery"?
Did you notice where it says, “Nupraptor plunges into a madness which overflows and infects all of the Guardians.”??? It does not say that Nupraptor plunged into Suspicion and grief and spread it to the rest of the circle. It says he went from Grief and Suspicion of Treachery to Madness. There is a difference.

I never said Suspicion and Grief are not part of the madness, but I am saying that are only a part, and small at that, you insist they are the whole madness:

BadGuysAlwaysWin 7-23-2002: . Nupraptor's insanity is explained already, and its not a hatred. It's grief for Ariel's death and a SUSPICION that it was other Circle Members who murdered her.

Now, Nupraptor does hate, everything, if he did not he would not have sewn his eyes shut and started killing innocent people to spread pain. Or as he says to Kain:
Nupraptor: Come, Kain . . . come share my pain . . .
No, I think Nup wants to make everyone else feel whatever pain he can, thus he tortures the people who went on a pilgrimage to his keep, and spread a madness through the Circle which caused them to all attack Nosgoth over protecting.


Well, since there is absolutely nothing in the game that ever supports the idea that the Pillar FORCES its will on the Balance Guardian even despite Nupraptor's Insanity, I'll just leave you to keep on thinking your version.

I will admit, Forces is to strong a word, which is why I did not use it. To say more properly would be influence the Guardian. I did say “Making him serve Balance” which is too strong as well, but happens when you type fast. I also said destiny and serving Balance (not the Pillar, Balance). More properly if anything is forcing Kain it is destiny/history.


Good for you, so can I. The Protectors of Hope are destroying the world, King William the Just is murdering thousands as the Nemesis, plague runs rampant across the land, thieves and brigands infest the countryside, Ottmar the Lion of Willendorf grieves in his city, and you expect Kain to have been raised any differently with or without Coorhagen or his madness? You need to do a little research into middle-ages nobility. They were ALL soldiers, and the very IDEA of the Knight was seeking out your opponent in glorious combat. Kain was a Knight as well (as his armor matches those of the Knights of Willendorf). You should also check up on warlords and conquerors of those times, and see which ones tried to AVOID bloodshed. I, for one, can name at least a dozen ancient warlords who reveled in death and came up with quite creative methods of murder. And we are talking about Nupraptor's suspicion, which causes him to go mad, which causes the rest of the Guardians to also go mad. Get it now?

Again, you insult me. When did we happen to be discussing Medieval Europe? It is very easy to claim I am ignorant on the subject when I was discussing what appears to be the fundamental philosophical belief of Coorhagen that might benefit Kain in his madness when you suddenly say, "Ah ha! Middle Ages, you must do research!!!!" We were not talking of the Middle Ages, last I looked I did not sit there and give a breakdown of possible/probable feifdoms and the vassalage the King required. Coorhagen appears to be very RealPolitik/egoistical, kinda sounds alot like Kain. What if Kain was raised in Willendorf where it appears that Idealism is the word of the day? He might grow up with alot of internal conflicts, and who knows how that would change things.

I know a lot about the Medieval world that was once Europe. Nosgoth is not Medieval Europe. Nosgoth is possibly a world with a Feudal System that happens to have some trappings that resemble Europe in its Middle/Dark Ages. There is no evidence that Nosgoth runs on the same foundations. There were many Feudal Systems which consisted of Kings, Nobles, and Peasants. Japan was Feudal for over a thousand years, China was Feudal, etc. Nosgoth could be said to actually more resemble a Renaissance world, where nobility still exists but they are not the sole source of military might, and the merchant and middle classes begin to have some influence. Or Nosgoth could be a fusion, accepting the vassalage system but not having lands operated by serfs.

(And just because Kain's armor matches the knights of Willendorf's it does not mean he was a knight. Coorhagen's location is known, their general philosophy is known from what little Kain says, but their standard soldiering attire is not. Whether or not Kain had any similarities beyond the armor, which he may have requested by rider, to Willendorf's soldiers is unknown, though we do know he held disgust for King Ottmar and the People who still revered him)


They were ALL soldiers, and the very IDEA of the Knight was seeking out your opponent in glorious combat. Kain was a Knight as well
No Knight in History who went out to face “Glorious Combat” had a Motto like “Vae Victus”. Remember Chivalry? Killing innocents and such was kinda looked down upon. Kain, from the word go, happens to talk about how he would like to kill people and dance in the streets as they burned (well, not so much, he talks wistfully of screams, laughs at killing helpless victims, revels in killing his killers, etc). A ‘Knight of the Middle Ages’ would not think that the death of innocents was a glorious thing, not even if they (the Chivalrous Knight) were changed to a vampire. Glorious Combat against the opponent did not involve the deaths of innocents (except when battling heathens/pagans, then they were guilty by default, vampires would be heathens/pagans in this case), it involved the deaths of fellow soldiers/knights. Whether or not Kain was a knight... unknown, he had armor, he had a sword, he was also travelling, he may not have been a knight who was part of an army, it is never stated if he was a knight, only that he was a noble, if Nosgoth is not based upon a Feudal System then he chances are good he is a trained fighter who is not a knight.

Nosgoth is not the Middle Ages. It is Nosgoth. It presumably has a Feudal System (just because it has nobles and kings does not make it Feudal like the Middle Ages) It has some similarities in design to Europe in the Middle and the later Renaissance period. It does not mean that everyone had a system of honor, or Chivalry, and Coorhagen sure sounds like that kinda place. Coorhagen sounds like what France was/became, a place of opulence where the Ruling Class were gods and everyone else was to be starved at a whim. Willendorf sounds like an Arthurian England, where nobility and Chivalry exist. The Nemesis and his army are the Vikings, pillaging and Killing all they can. Of course, that is the closest real life parallel to be drawn, for the Nemesis’ army is much worse, Coorhagen happens to have the motto of Vae Victus suggesting that life matters little beyond their own desires, and Willendorf did not have Excalibur. And whether they can be said to have any similarities to the Middle Ages beyond appearance is unknown.


And we are talking about Nupraptor's suspicion, which causes him to go mad, which causes the rest of the Guardians to also go mad. Get it now?
We are? I thought we were talking about Nietzsche’s theory of the Super Man and the Mediocrity of the Church. [/sarcasm]

I was connecting the idea that in some environments what would be considered a undesirable trait becomes an encouraged asset. If Coorhagen encourages ruthlessness then Kain, filled with a madness that makes him a sociopath, would no doubt find his lack of guilt over the fate of the conquered better than an empathy that causes him to dislike the notion of “Vae Victus”. Now, in such a place Kain might happen to be slightly more sane looking than the other Guardians who did not have the benefit of being raised in their madness. Is this significant? Yes, a Sociopath will gladly choose their life over everyone else’s and a sociopath will gladly use “Vae Victus” as their slogan and laugh when killing helpless chained up victims. (Note: I am using sociopath in the term as someone without conscience, unable to empathize with other people or feel guilt over, say, killing someone, instead they will feel sorry they are facing consequence and got caught, and not care about the actual person or their family, friends, etc)

What if Kain was a peasant in a small town? Might have become a brigand of narrow vision and cruelty. What if Kain was raised in Willendorf under King Ottmar and his court? Well, he probably would have been very confused and had an upbringing that conflicts with his instincts, which would do who knows what.

So, yes, this does have relevance to Nupraptor’s Madness.


I explained before, this time I'll put it in bold and underline it for you. KAIN IS SELFISH, YET THIS SELFISHNESS OFTEN COINCIDES WITH WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE, WHETHER BY COINCIDENCE OR BY DESIGN OF PEOPLE SUCH AS MORTANIUS. The corruption of the Pillar of Balance was because Kain was driven insane at birth, or as KAIN HIMSELF says,… The role he was to play was sacrificing himself for the Balance. He was INCAPABLE of this because he was selfish, which was caused by his madness. You can cry "Coorhagen" all you want, but remember that Hash'ak'gik had expertly calculated the effects. Driving the Circle mad would destroy the protection of Nosgoth, and thus Coorhagen would descend into a den of dogs just as Kain was being raised. It STILL goes back to the betrayal of the Circle.
When did I say Kain was not selfish? When did I say he would not choose out of feeling for himself? Your argument is one of Justification. I am not Justifying what he did, I am saying that there are circumstances beyond his control that influence him. Why would Kain willingly damn the world? Coorhagen is accurate, he thinks himself above it, he is a vain noble raised in a court where power is key. Destiny is the answer, even if he wants to rid himself of his ‘curse’ he may feel a compulsion that sways him towards a decision.

And no, I never said Coorhagen become a den of dogs because of Hash. My guess is like Willendorf Coorhagen has a tradition of being the way it is. Willendorf, considering its extensive library and buildings, would be safe to say it existed before Ottmar and had a line of Just Kings. Coorhagen, unknown, but safe to say it did not start at the time Kain was born.

Now, I am suggesting that maybe because the way Kain was raised that, while incapable of fulfilling his role as the Balance Guardian, does not make him incapable of fulfilling a role for Balance itself. Such compulsions, combined with his madness which makes him think of himself above others, would make the choice to preserve his life and eventually right the Balance much easier than ‘release’.


And you are the expert on how the Pillars works, even though that hasn't been revealed yet? I never speak of intent or action. I say that the Pillars are corrupted when the members are driven MAD. Anything after that is simply a RESULT of said madness. Kain can intend to dress up like a woman for all the Pillar of Balance, cares, because he is still mad and that is the reason for the Pillar's corruption.
Like I said before, I had confusion over your argument, you happen to stress the Opposite of how the Pillars should be used so much that I thought you were saying: Pillars are corrupt because they are misused.

Also, dare not say that against me. You claim the Pillars are being misused, but how do you know? By the very example of Malek and his death and you qualifying that as different from Kain’s shows you either do not know or are being a hypocrite. We are both bound in ignorance in this matter. You do not know if Malek is actually doing the opposite of what he is supposed to be doing. You do not know if Morty is. You do not know if any of them are. All we do know is that they are not protecting Nosgoth, but harming it, but whether they are misusing the Pillars to do so… unknown. It may be perfectly fine for Bane to warp creatures into new breeds, we do not know. Because, again, it is not misuse you stress, but opposite use than what is intended. So, by that logic, if resurrection is the opposite of what Morty should do then obviously the correct thing is he should go out and kill, kill, kill.

As for Malek, we do not know how long he has been in his bastion. That he has a bastion suggests more than 30 years. That he is binding the dead souls of warriors to suits of armor so they may continue to fight does not seem to suggest he abandoned conflict. It is known, from the SK site, that Malek continued purges for hundreds of years, how long those hundred, as in less than 500, more, is unknown. (Of course, if we are to believe the SK site that says 5000 than obviously he has been locked away awhile)

To tell me I do not know how the Pillars work so I am invalidated while you then claim to know how the Pillars are used oppositely when you have no clue how they are meant/do-work either is Hypocrisy as well.


Thanks for explaining to me what my argument is. And since I have repeatedly said that THE GUARDIANS ARE CORRUPT BECAUSE NUPRAPTOR MADE THEM ALL INSANE I really don't know where you're getting this whole intent/cause thing from. What they do AFTER they are insane is because they ARE insane. So... what are you talking about?
Like I said, I thought your argument was not that. You have been stressing “Opposite of what the Pillars are intended to do” in all other posts. So, I happen to construe that as, if the Pillars are used opposite how they are meant to then the Pillars are corrupted whether or not Nupraptor made the Guardians insane. And, since, like you said before:
And you are the expert on how the Pillars works, even though that hasn't been revealed yet?
Are you the expert? Is this how you know they are using the Pillars in a fashion that is Opposite how the Pillars are meant to be used?


Buddy, you have to quit trying to tell ME what I'm saying as a basis for YOUR arguments. ONCE AGAIN, THE GUARDIANS ARE CORRUPT BECAUSE NUPRAPTOR MADE THEM ALL INSANE. They aren't corrupt because they INTEND to do evil or that they actually DO evil, it's because they are INSANE and thus can't HELP it. The Pillars wouldn't choose evil people or insane people. Kain is already BORN and CHOSEN when he goes insane. The rest are already there. As I never ever talked about how their ACTIONS cause the Pillars to crack, I will again ignore the rest of this paragraph.

Already explained. Intent does come in the picture when the argument is understood to be the Opposite of what the intended purpose of the Pillars are.

OK... As the Protectors of Hope, their duty was to guard the land, ensure peace, and protect hope. Now, what would the opposite of this be? That's right... Attack the land, cause strife, and destroy hope. Which is why they are now called the Destroyers of Hope. Each Guardian INDIVIDUALLY accomplishes this in different ways, and each way is the OPPOSITE of what the Pillar would intend. Bane twists nature instead of guarding it. Malek allows conflict instead of stopping it. Mortanius raises the dead instead of keeping them. Nupraptor causes insanity instead of healing it. And Kain damns the world instead of saving it. See the pattern there? They ALL cause grief because that is the OPPOSITE of what the Pillars are MEANT to do. But each does it in their own way, which is the OPPOSITE of what their individual Pillars would intend. And the definition of normal insanity isn't just doing the opposite of what a person would want, but from their ACTIONS, we can HYPOTHESIZE that the EFFECT of the insanity is doing the opposite of what the Pillars would want. Kain's Pillar is cracked because he IS insane. The entire game, his own desires coincide with what the Pillar needs done, but he doesn't DO IT for the Pillars. We know that because at the end, when his desires and that of the Pillar differ, he chooses himself. THAT is why the Pillar was corrupt, because he was insane. What you do when you are insane doesn't effect the Pillars anymore because you already ARE insane and they already ARE corrupt. They don't get MORE corrupt. They already ARE corrupt.
God, here you go again, quit saying Opposite, this is where the confusion sprang. Of course, now you are just saying what I have been saying about them being insane and going after Nosgoth, we are not in direct contention there. For the longest time you did not mention the destruction they caused to Nosgoth, you mentioned how they are using the Pillars (which according to you I am not the expert on, but I must assume you are apparently) Opposite to their Intended Purpose.

As for them attacking the land, ummm, I have been saying that for a long time. In fact, I said:
The real insanity is that they all give up serving Nosgoth as a whole, more than just the Pillars, and then they cap that off with making Nosgoth suffer.

Now, that happens to say that they do do something you should agree with, they do the opposite of serving the Pillars, which is making the Pillars serve them (Anacrothe admits this), then they go on to harming Nosgoth.

As for this:
Malek allows conflict instead of stopping it. Mortanius raises the dead instead of keeping them. Nupraptor causes insanity instead of healing it.
You do realize that you have flawed this entirely. You have no clue if Nupraptor is supposed to heal the insane. You have no clue if Malek is supposed to prevent conflict. You have already proved yourself a hypocrite by saying that Morty killing Malek’s body then placing his soul in a suit of armor is different than what he did to Kain, when, in fact, they are the same in all but a few minor technicalities, he killed a person and kept their soul from the Afterlife in both cases. It has never been said Nupraptor was a healer, it said he gave advice. Never said Malek prevented conflict, in fact, all he ever did was spread it. Morty’s actions do not agree with what you say.

Oh, as for the insanity, from the SK site, direct from what they said about Nupraptor:
He vows vengeance upon Mortanius and the fates that have caused this event, and turns his powerful magic to bear on the other members of the Circle of Nine. All across Nosgoth, the minds of the sensitive and intellectual are blasted by relentless waves of hatred. There is no stopping the assault. When the enchantment ends, the entire Circle is quite insane, some raving like madmen, others maliciously in control of their actions... And now, Nosgoth is at their mercy.

Hatred.

And again, for this:
Kain's Pillar is cracked because he IS insane. The entire game, his own desires coincide with what the Pillar needs done, but he doesn't DO IT for the Pillars. We know that because at the end, when his desires and that of the Pillar differ, he chooses himself. THAT is why the Pillar was corrupt, because he was insane.
So, again, you profess to know how the Pillars operate and their desires? Who says the Pillar did not want him to choose life at the end? We do not know. Yes, he is Insane, I have said that many times. I admitted that he selfishly chose himself and that there is no justification. Are you agreeing with me on this point? The Pillar was corrupt because he was insane, no matter what actions he took it would never have mattered because he is insane. He could have given bread to the needy, the Pillar would have been corrupt, he could have served the Balance exactly how he was supposed to until the very end and the Pillar would have still been corrupt. I have said that. I have stressed many times the Pillars are corrupt because the Guardians are insane, I did this in response to what I gathered to be your argument where you stress opposite instead of telling it plainly, like I did. They make Nosgoth suffer, they attempt to corrupt and bring pain to the entire world because Nupraptor infected the entire circle with his madness born out of pain, despair, hatred, and yes, suspicion.

(Now, let us all see if this came out ok because I am writing it on word when the first draft was dumped when I tapped the Backspace when the cursor was not in the box)

Edit: Ok, it worked.
Edited for grammar, placed in some forgotten words.

Reaper007
28th Jul 2002, 20:54
just read the first few posts.

according to dantes inferno the worst place in hell is reserved for those who betray their comrades. kain set all the others, marcus, sebastien, not magnus he just went nuts, to that place, uhma was no different. not only that i believe that kain loved her, just before he killed her he said "U could have been my Queen!"

Reaper007

Diefalling
3rd Aug 2002, 13:28
So, I am a theory nut what can I say...here are a few more

Bone reaver
I thought that it was interesting that vorador's blade came from the same stock as the soul reaver, in all probability."The most formidable weapon ever forged by our swordsmiths..." is how janos describes the blood reaver, I figure that the blade that belongs to vorador is also of this stock.

Dark Gifts and Vampire Magic
I am of the opinion that these two things are seperate charateristics, that the magic visibly wielded by Kain, Vorador, and Umah are a disapline seperate from those of the dark gifts. One of the reasons (and I acknoledge that this is a bit silly) is that they seperate them in blood omen options screens. But that aside I really do see them as seperate disaplines, especially considering the nature of most of the other dark gifts. Charm of course is the odd one out, though, I think that it is a dark gift that is simply an anologe to the vampic magic abilities. I think vorador and kain's primary dark gift is the shape changing ability(see the cutscene of malek vs vorador in dark eden to confirm that vorador also has the wolf form). Kain and vorador's gifts kind of make you wonder why they seem to stop physicaly changing over time. I think it may be that the form they are in may be completly of their choosing(see later for a completly different idea about the massive changes in kains sons while kain remains unchanged. I also think the teleport displine is just an advanced form of the sanctuary spell, and not Umah's dark gift. (what was Umah's gift you ask, I have no Idea).

Hylden, Kain, 'evolved forms' and the 6 brothers
here is an odd one. I was thinking about the shape of the drained janos in blood omen 2, and I was trying to think of any other related effects in the game series, and an interesting one came to mind. That would be, look at what the various brothers look like in their so called evolved forms. now start with the youngest, and work your way to the raziel and kain, you might notice a pattern. The most grotesque and similar to devolved Janos are Melchiah and Zephon, and both Rahab and Dumah progress towards appearing more like their original selves. It leads to the question what will they do with Turel? Might he perchance be blue? it seems that the weekest brothers are devolving but the closer they are to kain's gift(and possibly his role as balance guardian, the more they seem protected(and thus why kain is still in his current form). Also what presisly is making the weak brothers devovle(along with their children). So what about raziel? what if, dispite his plunge into the lake of the dead, he continued to evolve, surpassing kain as he said. Is it possible that if a vapire(soul created, not blood gifted) evolves long enough he may become one of the elders. If this is true, once again, what will turel be like(yes I know they had a picture of him at the end of soul reaver, but at the same time...they have changed their minds before now.

What about the guardians
I would like to question whether there are other guardians chosen after kain cut his bloody swath through them in bo1. (interesting thought if the reborn brothers might be some of these(ok its a streach...but go with me). It would mean that raziel might have inherited some of the seats of pillar guardian when he obsorbed their souls. It also might be that he has to do exactly that (obsorb the guardians souls in order to be "savior of Nosgoth, and in one being hold all the souls of pillar guradians[and that being at least a semi-Ancient]. (wouldn't that be an interesting plot for soul reaver 3, eventually go through time and gather each of the guardians soul as kain slays them. I think it would be very interesting to revisit blood omen nosgoth as raziel. Also, I would just love to see the look on mobious' face if he ran directly into uberdemon kain. I would just love to see a confrontation of raziel and mobious, and then from the dark behind mobious you see an arm reach out and tap mobious on the shoulder.<cackles with evil delight>.

Alright only one last thing-
who is with me in wanting to see the return of havoc and malice(the axes) and the wraith armor(see my theorie post on the blood omen 2 list for what I think about that. And of course one final thing, just remeber who was the last person to have his hands on the reaver at the end of soul reaver 2(he breaks it, he gets a replacement, kain is just always more fun with a soul reaver).

Mordred
3rd Aug 2002, 15:47
YEAH havoc and malice Rock


Even tho i did like the SR games, i was adisapointed when SR First came out, i was hoping for more BO, BO has cool weapons armor and magic spells, SR felt like Tomb Radier in the LOK setting.

But i still enjoyed them

but i still prefere the Blood omens

And imo Blood omen is still the best even if it is old

Umah Bloodomen
3rd Aug 2002, 20:12
Originally posted by Diefalling
So, I am a theory nut what can I say...here are a few more

Bone reaver
I thought that it was interesting that vorador's blade came from the same stock as the soul reaver, in all probability."The most formidable weapon ever forged by our swordsmiths..." is how janos describes the blood reaver, I figure that the blade that belongs to vorador is also of this stock.

Join the club fellow "theory nut" ;) :p
Interesting indeed. I don't find it surprising that he had access to such a weapon though. Janos was his sire afterall and most likely bestowed the ancient weapon onto his child to fend for himself when necessary. It was my impression that the Bone Reaver was a "dead blade", meaning that it wasn't imbued with ancient magical energy. Merely a tool for battle. I wonder if perhaps all of the ancients had these Bone Reavers in the Ancient vs. Hylden war. Another speculation I had was, what if they were created as decoys to deter other beings from discovering the Soul Reaver aka "the key to the Pillars". Warpsavant said something about the Bone Reaver actually being smaller than what the Soul Reaver was. I will ask him to confirm the specifics on that. There hasn't been any indication as to how many of the Bone Reavers were forged either, I have also wondered that. It could help prove my "decoy theory" that I stated above.




Originally posted by Diefalling
Dark Gifts and Vampire Magic
I am of the opinion that these two things are seperate charateristics, that the magic visibly wielded by Kain, Vorador, and Umah are a disapline seperate from those of the dark gifts. One of the reasons (and I acknoledge that this is a bit silly) is that they seperate them in blood omen options screens. But that aside I really do see them as seperate disaplines, especially considering the nature of most of the other dark gifts. Charm of course is the odd one out, though, I think that it is a dark gift that is simply an anologe to the vampic magic abilities. I think vorador and kain's primary dark gift is the shape changing ability(see the cutscene of malek vs vorador in dark eden to confirm that vorador also has the wolf form). Kain and vorador's gifts kind of make you wonder why they seem to stop physicaly changing over time. I think it may be that the form they are in may be completly of their choosing(see later for a completly different idea about the massive changes in kains sons while kain remains unchanged. I also think the teleport displine is just an advanced form of the sanctuary spell, and not Umah's dark gift. (what was Umah's gift you ask, I have no Idea).

I am willing to bet that Dark Gifts are traits which vampires all "grow into" as they age. Vampire magic remains the disciplines. From the dialogue at the beginning of BO2, Umah says that vampires are gifted with Dark Gifts, implying that they don't need to be learned. Now the spells acquired in BO1 would be construed as disciplines, because Kain techincally finds them and learns them. I think the forms would fall under the Dark Gift category, seeing that Mist was a dark gift in BO2 and it was also carried over from BO1. I am not sure what you are trying to get at with the "why they seem to stop changing physically over time" statement. Vorador was a prehistoric human (confirmed by Amy Hennig Director of the Series) he obviously changed physically into the green guy we all know and love. Kain also changed, from the human, to the white vampire to the Kain we see in the SR series. Perhaps they have evolved as much as they are going to evolve and therefore don't appear to change. Both of them have been around a very long time (Vorador is older of course) so this theory could be plausable. I can agree with your theory on the Teleport spell. I speculated once that teleportation can only occur to places the vampire has been to physically. As for Umah's Dark Gift, she didn't have any. She was too young (remember she was basically a fledgling...not more than 200 years old seeing Kain knew nothing of her in the 200 years following BO1 and before he went comatose in the 200 years pre BO2. Remember that BO2 when Kain awakens happens 400 years after BO1). Her Dark Gift was the basic Dark Gift of all vampires. I am sure she could use Mist (seeing she taught Kain to remember) and of course Teleport (which she most likely picked up from her sire, Vorador). Whisper was established as a gift and I am inclined to believe that Fury would've been her only other gift.


Originally posted by Diefalling
Hylden, Kain, 'evolved forms' and the 6 brothers
here is an odd one. I was thinking about the shape of the drained janos in blood omen 2, and I was trying to think of any other related effects in the game series, and an interesting one came to mind. That would be, look at what the various brothers look like in their so called evolved forms. now start with the youngest, and work your way to the raziel and kain, you might notice a pattern. The most grotesque and similar to devolved Janos are Melchiah and Zephon, and both Rahab and Dumah progress towards appearing more like their original selves. It leads to the question what will they do with Turel? Might he perchance be blue? it seems that the weekest brothers are devolving but the closer they are to kain's gift(and possibly his role as balance guardian, the more they seem protected(and thus why kain is still in his current form). Also what presisly is making the weak brothers devovle(along with their children). So what about raziel? what if, dispite his plunge into the lake of the dead, he continued to evolve, surpassing kain as he said. Is it possible that if a vapire(soul created, not blood gifted) evolves long enough he may become one of the elders. If this is true, once again, what will turel be like(yes I know they had a picture of him at the end of soul reaver, but at the same time...they have changed their minds before now.

Of all the brothers, Janos looked more like Turel than any of the ones you suggested. On another note, there has been speculation that Janos assumed the shape of Hash'ak'gik or "The Dark Entity" from BO1. Turel will look a lot like the Turelim Vampires. Actually he will look like Morlock (the Tomb Guardian of SR1. Whom was actually supposed to be Turel in the game but was cut out. See Blincoln's website for more information on this). Kain is a vampire made of necromancy, not through the bite like Vorador. (Meaning he isn't a pureblooded vampire). Janos stated that vampires are no longer born. Vorador stated he was too weak to make more vampires in BO2 and that it was time consuming. Kain somehow found out how to raise vampires by breathing a portion of his own soul into a corpse. (Which is how he raised the Sarafan brethren). I would assume that this would make him weak as well. Raziel got the most amount of the soul (hence why he looked pretty decent) Turel was the second born (hence why he isn't as bad either, more creature-like, but not hideous). Dumah was the third (same deal) Rahab was fourth (getting weirder looking) Zephon was fifth (getting grotesque and immobile) and Melchiah was last (totally screwy looking). It is becoming clearer as the theories arise, that Raziel may have been an Ancient to begin with. (Before he was human...this has yet to be proved though). I doubt (as well as other people doubt) that he will evolve into a "restored" state. Turel will most likely look as he should have in SR1 (similar to Morlock) and I have theorized that we may be able to fight him as both Vampire Turel and Evolved Turel (depending on the time streaming issue).



Originally posted by Diefalling
What about the guardians
I would like to question whether there are other guardians chosen after kain cut his bloody swath through them in bo1. (interesting thought if the reborn brothers might be some of these(ok its a streach...but go with me). It would mean that raziel might have inherited some of the seats of pillar guardian when he obsorbed their souls. It also might be that he has to do exactly that (obsorb the guardians souls in order to be "savior of Nosgoth, and in one being hold all the souls of pillar guradians[and that being at least a semi-Ancient]. (wouldn't that be an interesting plot for soul reaver 3, eventually go through time and gather each of the guardians soul as kain slays them. I think it would be very interesting to revisit blood omen nosgoth as raziel. Also, I would just love to see the look on mobious' face if he ran directly into uberdemon kain. I would just love to see a confrontation of raziel and mobious, and then from the dark behind mobious you see an arm reach out and tap mobious on the shoulder.<cackles with evil delight>.

Because Balance hasn't been restored, a lot of people suggested that the Pillars are prevented from choosing the successor guardians to those slaughtered by Kain in BO1. Raziel appears that he will be succeeding Janos Audron as the Reaver Guardian (The 10th guardian and the "Key" to the Pillars).
He is the savior because he is the "Key" to the "lock" (Pillars) which keeps what was deemed evil and a nuisance (Hylden) out of Nosgoth. If Raziel enters BO1 Nosgoth, it will be to take his place beneath Avernus Cathedral to be discovered by Kain (providing he doesn't end up having to kill him before this or after this - depending on where the time streaming goes).We've already seen a confrontation between Moebius and Raziel (and Moebius was begging like a little baby to be spared...LOL). Granted, it wasn't a fight, but it was definately intimidation. :p


Originally posted by Diefalling
Alright only one last thing-
who is with me in wanting to see the return of havoc and malice(the axes) and the wraith armor(see my theorie post on the blood omen 2 list for what I think about that. And of course one final thing, just remeber who was the last person to have his hands on the reaver at the end of soul reaver 2(he breaks it, he gets a replacement, kain is just always more fun with a soul reaver).

Havok and Malice were great weapons. I enjoyed them thoroughly. I don't forsee them returning however. :(
There were 2 entities with ties to the Soul Reaver at the end of SR2, Raziel was one and Kain was the other...remember the paradox, the Reaver cannot turn on itself. But yes, Kain is definately more fun with the Soul Reaver.


Originally posted by Mordred

Even tho i did like the SR games, i was adisapointed when SR First came out, i was hoping for more BO, BO has cool weapons armor and magic spells, SR felt like Tomb Radier in the LOK setting.

But i still enjoyed them

but i still prefere the Blood omens

And imo Blood omen is still the best even if it is old

BO1 is my favorite, followed by SR2, BO2 and then SR1. SR1 just isn't as pivotal to the storyline anymore. Throw the opening FMV's onto the SR2 disc and you've got a great game. LOL. Besides he didn't even retain anything he gained from SR1 in SR2 other than the ability to shift and the wraith blade. LOL. It's a good game but isn't as intense as the others anymore.

EDIT: Changed alchemy to necromancy to avoid confusion.

Non-existent
4th Aug 2002, 01:40
Umah:
Kain is a vampire made of alchemy, not through the bite like Vorador.
I would like to challenge this, as Alchemy seems to broad a term to use. It could be said that Kain changed Alchemically because his structure changed, or because there was some degree of spiritualism involved, but to say simply Alchemy... It would be more proper to say Kain was a vampire made of Necromancy.

Of course, Nosgoth must be taken into account. Anacrothe being the Alchemist, apparently manipulating the physical to change the structure of a thing, seems to require a more narrow definition of what Alchemy is, in that the arts of Sorcery, Necromancy, and even the manipulation of nature does not fall under Anacrothe's influence (though Anacrothe was quite helpful to Bane in creating Dark Eden's inhabitants). Anacrothe's influence seemed to be the more narrow vision of Alchemy as a sort of magic based chemistry.

For those wanting to see more on Alchemy have a look at this informative site (http://www.levity.com/alchemy/index.html).

Their FAQ is beyond unhelpful though. What they basically say when they are asked to define Alchemy is that to avoid invalidation they cannot be defined, ironically this also makes it so they cannot be validated. The site likes to try to connect metaphysical theories between Alchemists of old and Physicists of present day, or try to stress the religious and spiritual aspects to avoid giving a clear answer. Basically the only common thread throughout is the manipulation of physical elements to effect change either spiritually, physically, or psychologically.

Anywho, to get back on point, Kain appears to have been turned into a vampire from Necromancy, which depending on definition of what Alchemy is Necromancy either would or would not be part of it, so for specifics sake, and to avoid possible confusion, better to say Kain was created through Necromancy.

(Yes, I know this was nitpicking, but well, it can be confusing to say Kain is an Alchemical vampire when it was Necromancy that raised him)

Darakari
17th Aug 2002, 01:25
Raziel did keep some of the abilities that he gained in SR1.

The ability to phase thru gates .... from Melchiah.
The ability to climb walls .............. from Zephon.
The ability to swim ....................... from Rahab.

He also kept the force blast that he gained from Morlock, but in a weaker state. The SR2 force blast sucked a long one. There should have been tons more enemies and demons in SR2, and they should have made it so that you could use the force blast from SR1.

They DID take away the "twist" ability that Raziel gained from Dumah, but it was a stupid power anyway. IF it would have had some combat capabilities, then maybe it would have been important enough to keep.

What really blew chunks was the fact that we gained ALL the Glyph Spells, only to find out that they really had no point, and only to lose them in SR2. There should have been magical barriers located throughout the Chronoplast that would keep you from reaching Kain, unless you had the appropriate Glyph Spell to destroy the barrier. Or maybe Turelim that shot force blasts at you while protected by a surrounding barrier that you had to destroy with your Glyph spells.

At least the magic abilities from BO1 were important because they gave you more of an edge when fighting the stronger bosses and enemies.

Umah Bloodomen
7th Oct 2002, 12:18
I made reference to this thread on the Soul Reaver forum (in an semi-unrelated thread) and thought that it could be revived.


Originally posted by Morte
For Umah: I have read parts of your thesis you posted in the other thread and they appear quite interesting, although I disagree on many points. Let me just summarize shortly where our thoughts on her go separate ways:

Reading "parts" of my thesis and expecting me to take your criticism to it seriously is quite insulting to me. You disclosed that you didn't bother to take the time, and I am to assume I am supposed to take the time myself? :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Morte
You claim that Umah acted the way she did because she was undisciplined and worried about her reputation, that Kain would steal her position amongst the vampires.
I disagree. I don't believe Umah is someone who would care for such shallow things, no, there was something deeper behind her decision to take the Nexus stone.
I believe she was "brainwashed" to an extent by Vorador, as he did not want for Kain to rule supreme. I also think she was very loyal to the Cabal and wanted for the vampires to prosper, and Kain's relentless ambition and ruthlessness worried her. She believed that what she was doing was for the greater good of the Cabal and vampires of Nosgoth by not allowing Kain to become too powerful. I agree that she loved him, but pushed her feelings aside for what she believed was a greater cause.

I am afraid you didn't read into my thesis as well as I had hoped you would. Had you read more than "parts" of it, I am sure you would've understood better. Allow me to dissect my thesis for you.


Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

Umah’s Betrayal: Premeditated or Impulsive? Is Love Something To Consider?

With the many ironies of the Legacy of Kain Series™, I felt that it was inevitable that Umah would betray Kain. Despite this, I believe that her motive for doing so wasn't as vindictive as most other characters who have done the same. I believe that Umah simply wanted to be the hero, I didn't get the impression that she wanted take away all that Kain had accomplished.

Translation: Umah never premeditated her betrayal towards Kain. She had nothing to gain and all to lose by it (obviously with her death). More on Umah playing the hero in a moment.


Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
As Kain continued on through Blood Omen 2™ his arrogance became more apparent. I am willing to believe that Vorador had discussed Kain and his arrogant, power-hungry nature with his child following Kain’s defeat at the hands of The Sarafan Lord 200 years ago. Umah most likely disregarded Vorador’s warnings of Kain as she cared for him during his slumber. I believe that this is when she learned to hold feelings for Kain. By the time that Kain had awakened, Umah was beginning to fall in love. As she retrained Kain, I believe she naively felt that Vorador was wrong about him, and even perhaps underestimated him herself.

Translation: This is where your "brainwashing" notion would come into play. Vorador as Umah's sire, would have naturally fueled her head and the rest of the Cabal's head with untrue stories and negative opinions of Kain. In their eyes, Vorador could and does no wrong.


Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
I don’t believe that Vorador ever really liked Kain on account of Kain’s desire for power. Umah foolishly stated at the beginning of Blood Omen 2™ that the Cabal could not defeat the Sarafan alone, and that they were willing to put everything on the line in order to enlist Kain to help their cause. When it appeared that Kain grew closer to his victory over The Sarafan Lord, Umah panicked. She was devoted to Vorador and Kain was infringing on that bond and making her look like less of a leader to her kind. Fearing her own embarrassment and perhaps feeling that she was no longer Vorador’s “favorite”, Umah needed to do something, and fast. In her mind, taking the Nexus Stone surely would protect her from being defeated by The Sarafan Lord. At this point, nothing mattered but her own reputation. Did Umah love Kain? Yes. I believe she did, however, she proved willing to throw her feelings aside to maintain the bond with her sire, Vorador, without weighing the consequences of her actions first.

It is obvious to me that this was amongst the biggest pieces that you "missed" the deeper meaning of. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Morte
I also think she was very loyal to the Cabal and wanted for the vampires to prosper, and Kain's relentless ambition and ruthlessness worried her. She believed that what she was doing was for the greater good of the Cabal and vampires of Nosgoth by not allowing Kain to become too powerful. I agree that she loved him, but pushed her feelings aside for what she believed was a greater cause

Her reputation was on the line (shallow or not). She was Vorador's right-hand woman, had she not been the direct cause of the victory over the Hylden, or had she failed, her position could've been easily taken away and Vorador could've cast her aside like a dog. Umah had already slipped up once, allowing Kain to take the upperhand (when she fell victim to a hylden capture). The more slip ups one makes, the less they look in the eyes of those in positions of power (Vorador) and the more likely they are to be demoted and/or ostracised alltogether.


Originally posted by Morte
I also agree that Kain was justified in killing her, but not for the reasons you mention, at least not mainly for them.
You claim he punished her, because that is something a good leader would do, and because she stole his/their glory.
Like I said, I don't think she was doing this to be a hero, so that part about stealing his glory does not hold true for me. I think he punished her because she betrayed him, she betryed his trust. Kain could not care less about equality in dealing out justice, his rule was never a just one anyway, nor did he care how it would make him look like, if he let her live.
No, he killed her because he knew that if she betrayed him once, she is likely to do so again in the future, with possibly more devastating results. He would always have to watch his back with her, if he let her live, never to be able to trust her again.
Ironic, how she lost his trust because of not placing her trust in him, as he did in her.

Yet another part you missed. Allow me to again repeat myself. (And please pay attention to what I boldface).



[b]What kind of leader would Kain be if he had spared Umah? Kain would be a total hypocrite if he let her live, and destroyed others who committed trespasses against him (Marcus, Faustus). She betrayed him by stealing his glory, actually not necessarily HIS glory per say, but THEIR glory. From the dialogue, it seemed that Kain was willing to share the victory of defeating the Sarafan Lord, however Umah's impulsive nature prevented that. I agree that Umah gave Kain what he wanted to hear as opposed to the truth, which in fact condemned her. He was justified in taking her life because a good leader must ensure just punishment for subjects who step out of line, this leads to deterring similar crimes from taking place. Umah's death occurred as a just punishment. I don't think Vorador even questioned the punishment when Kain let him in on the details surrounding Umah’s death. Although Vorador was shocked and upset by the death of his child, (as any parent would be) he didn’t really argue about it, nor did he seem to resent Kain for doing it. Umah betrayed Kain and let down her beloved Cabal. Perhaps Vorador was embarrassed by Umah’s actions in the end. Either way, he knew what the result of treachery was, and could only respect the punishment enforced. I believe it was obvious that Kain had feelings for Umah. Allowing himself to feel love for anyone must have been a difficult task since becoming a vampire. Even at the time of her death, Kain never talked down to Umah, yelled at her, nor did he question why she had betrayed him. I believe Kain was tortured by having to take Umah’s life but had to inform her of what she had done wrong, perhaps to justify his actions to himself. I believe it was a sign of true love to both comfort Umah yet still punish her. I believe that Kain felt that he was doing her a favor, sparing her from a more agonizing death at his hands, as well as sparing her from the future events of Nosgoth..


I don't doubt that in Kain's mind, he would view Umah as a potential threat in the future (meaning she would again betray him at her convienience). But you did agree with me on the betrayal part. The glory issue is a deeper speculation into the unknown scenarios. We don't know what her motives were to be exact, the motives I provided were both plausable and fit with the events of the game cinematics and also fit with what a person would do out of desperation.


Originally posted by Morte
Couple this with that suspicions at the back of his head that she was a Sarafan spy (which was later proven false), and her death was guaranteed.
And yes, he too had feelings for her, but he had to set them aside, if he was to ever reach goals he set for himself.


Kain's suspicions of Umah being a spy did not even manifest themselves until she stole the Nexus stone from his chest. He was more than willing to follow her along through Meridian, to Vorador and aid in a cause that did not even concern him. Kain has never been stupid or naive, and just doing these actions out of the goodness of his cold black heart just doesn't fly. He would never put himself in the position of being screwed knowingly, especially seeing he was vulnerable after his 200 year sleep.

EDIT Adjusted my color tags.

Morte
7th Oct 2002, 14:27
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Reading "parts" of my thesis and expecting me to take your criticism to it seriously is quite insulting to me. You disclosed that you didn't bother to take the time, and I am to assume I am supposed to take the time myself? :rolleyes:

Well in that case you should have posted the whole thesis perhaps. :rolleyes:
You say yourself in your post that you are posting only some "interesting tidbits" of your thesis and the rest will be available on your website.
I read quite thoroughly what you posted, but since the entire thesis was not posted, and your website is apparently still under construction, I can only read those "parts" that you posted, no? :rolleyes:




I am afraid you didn't read into my thesis as well as I had hoped you would. Had you read more than "parts" of it, I am sure you would've understood better. Allow me to dissect my thesis for you.


Translation: Umah never premeditated her betrayal towards Kain. She had nothing to gain and all to lose by it (obviously with her death). More on Umah playing the hero in a moment.

As I explained above, I did read your thesis thoroughly, as much as it was posted, which were just "parts", apparently. Perhaps you should check your original post again, before accusing me of not reading it thoroughly.
I never said that she did, she simply seized the opportunity. And I understand quite well what you meant by that, it was an act of a desperation.
Desperation indeed, only not because of her failure reflecting in Vorador's eyes or because of her position threatened, but desperation that the land and subsequently vampires would fall from the hands of one tyrannt into another.





Translation: This is where your "brainwashing" notion would come into play. Vorador as Umah's sire, would have naturally fueled her head and the rest of the Cabal's head with untrue stories and negative opinions of Kain. In their eyes, Vorador could and does no wrong.

On this we agree, as it should be apparent from my post.



It is obvious to me that this was amongst the biggest pieces that you "missed" the deeper meaning of. :rolleyes:

I assure you, I did not. I simply disagreed. Unless of course disagreeing with your theories is "missing the deeper meaning."
After all, that is what your thesis is; a theory, like you said yourself, we do not know the exact nature of her motives, and even if your theory is plausible, it is still just a theory and does not automatically invalidate opposing or differing theories.




Her reputation was on the line (shallow or not). She was Vorador's right-hand woman, had she not been the direct cause of the victory over the Hylden, or had she failed, her position could've been easily taken away and Vorador could've cast her aside like a dog. Umah had already slipped up once, allowing Kain to take the upperhand (when she fell victim to a hylden capture). The more slip ups one makes, the less they look in the eyes of those in positions of power (Vorador) and the more likely they are to be demoted and/or ostracised alltogether.

Now please explain to me how did Vorador expect her to be the direct cause of victory over Hylden, if the Cabal put all of their hopes in Kain, they were even "willing to put everything on the line in order to enlist Kain to help their cause", your own words.
Yes, her reputation may have played a role in it, but not very large one, and certainly not dominant one, as you claim.
Not because of fear of being cast away and losing her position, but because Vorador may have instructed her not to allow Kain to gain too much power and she simply followed his orders. I also don't think that she was as concerned about her own position in Cabal, as much she was with the fate of the land, she believed that allowing Kain victory would eventually damn Nosgoth because of all the things she heard about him from Vorador.
Vorador's primary desire was to defeat the Sarafan lord, and then to keep Kain in check if possible, meaning it was a secondary thing. Of course he had expected to some degree from Umah to try and realize that, but I highly doubt that he expected her to be the "direct cause of the victory over the Hylden".
Sure, he hoped she could accomplish this, but I doubt he was putting all of his hopes in her.




I don't doubt that in Kain's mind, he would view Umah as a potential threat in the future (meaning she would again betray him at her convienience). But you did agree with me on the betrayal part. The glory issue is a deeper speculation into the unknown scenarios. We don't know what her motives were to be exact, the motives I provided were both plausable and fit with the events of the game cinematics and also fit with what a person would do out of desperation.

This paragraph is basically agreeing with what I said, so I don't see what you meant to say with it. The glory issue is indeed a speculation, and in my opinion not as important a factor in Kain's mind as the one of trust that I mentioned in my post.
I did not miss any part of your post, as I said before, I read it thoroughly.
Yes, just leader must ensure equal punishment for his subjects, but again, I don't think this was as important to Kain at that time as the issue of trust, making certain that he would not be betrayed again.
We can't say for certain, whether Vorador was embarassed by Umah's actions, more likely by her failure. But if he secretly supported her(which I am sure he did, at least as far as I can, given all facts, or rather lack of them), then he didn't show it to Kain. Of course he was upset, but if he showed that he supported her betrayal and disagreed with Kain's punishment, then he would have to openly go against Kain, and that would mean burning some bridges which could prove useful in the future.
Not to mention he couldn't afford any infighting with the shadow of Sarafan lord still hanging over him/them.
And yes, Kain loved her, of course it was not easy for him to push his feelings aside and kill her, but as I mentioned, he also knew that it was the only way, and I don't think he would have done this if he had any other choice.




Kain's suspicions of Umah being a spy did not even manifest themselves until she stole the Nexus stone from his chest. He was more than willing to follow her along through Meridian, to Vorador and aid in a cause that did not even concern him. Kain has never been stupid or naive, and just doing these actions out of the goodness of his cold black heart just doesn't fly. He would never put himself in the position of being screwed knowingly, especially seeing he was vulnerable after his 200 year sleep.

Perhaps your misunderstanding of this part of my post is partially my fault, I should have made it more clearer.
I never said that he always suspected her as a spy. I meant that his suspicions arose when she stole the Nexus stone and betrayed him, I agree with you on this. He probably wasn't certain though, as there might have even been some suspicions about Vorador(not that he was working with Sarafan, but that he didn't want him to reach his set goals), so he wasn't 100% certain that she betrayed him for the Sarafan, but had his doubts.
Like I said in my post, she lost his trust by betraying him, I have no doubt that he trusted her before that(as much as Kain would trust anyone).

Umah Bloodomen
7th Oct 2002, 15:10
The Umah thesis is complete, the "tidbit" reference refers to the fact that its only a small piece of an entire thesis that I have created. A thesis which combines all of the characters into one big thesis paper.

My reasoning to combine them all is to refer back to them and point out similiarities, differences etc. and really explain the characters from inside and out, both on a factual and speculative level.

I'll be back for more of a related-response later.

imported_ANGEL_OF_DEATH
17th Oct 2002, 17:13
I believe that Kain will do that to anybody due to that fact that Raziel was executed due to something small as having wings and Kain not. I think that if you cross Kain in anyway he will kill you without out any second thoughts until after the fact. 2 words = anger management, lol:D

keepittrue
24th Oct 2002, 21:57
Originally posted by ANGEL_OF_DEATH
I believe that Kain will do that to anybody due to that fact that Raziel was executed due to something small as having wings and Kain not. I think that if you cross Kain in anyway he will kill you without out any second thoughts until after the fact. 2 words = anger management, lol:D

In response to this, we now know Kain did NOT kill Raziel for that purpose.

Soul Reaver
25th Jan 2003, 10:39
I don't know if this has been discussed before and I don't know if it's true but if you look at Umah's boots you can see sarafan symbols... I'm sorry if I've mixed something up... And how do we know that the SL wasn't lying?

Hash'ak'gik
25th Jan 2003, 11:16
I think the SL was lying when he denied having Umah as his spy. I think she realised Kain would kill the Cabal as soon as they ceased to be useful to him, so she went to the Sarafan and promised to deliver the Nexus stone to the SL if he spared the Cabal. Umah takes the NS, but the Sarafan betray her and she flees, is injured, then killed by Kain.

Her boots were probably part of a disguise.;)

VegetaWorshipper
25th Jan 2003, 11:40
Oooh... Death to Umah!!

*is hideously jealous*

Umah Bloodomen
26th Jan 2003, 12:10
No offense, but if Umah was the spy, she wouldn't have been injured on the pier, and the Nexus Stone would've been returned to the Sarafan Lord and it wasn't.

(Trust me, I highly doubt the operatives of TSL would screw up so bad as to leave the tool which would eventually lead to the demise of their leader in the hands of their enemy, Kain. And tell me a good reason why the Sarafan would hunt her down if she were on their side. Boots aside, the pieces of this puzzle don't fit).

Umah wanted to be the hero. That's it. Inadvertantly, she could've been working for the true spy of TSL (whom I still believe is Vorador), and not even realized it.

Now my question remains, could the symbolism of her boots indicate her human-life prior to Vorador siring her? Could she have once served as a Sarafan and not even remembered? Hmm, sounds a bit like someone else we know, eh?

Ardeth Silvereni
26th Jan 2003, 13:07
Aww, no. :(

Umah, every time I see you post that Vorador is probably a traitor to his kind, I feel all sentimental and hope that you're wrong. He was so strong in BO1 and SR2. I can't imagine him giving in to anyone like that, particularly not to betray his own descendands, and his own creator by aiding the Hylden.

I'm unsure of how much you've covered in other posts, but the only circumstances I can forsee where this might happen are:

1) Vorador believes Kain is a large enough threat so he would ally with the Hylden to get rid of him. Believing Janos is dead, he can somehow justfy this course of action to himself.
BUT - This begs the question, why didn't Vorador finish off Kain in the first place (after TSL defeated him) instead of having him nursed back to health?

2) Vorador simply wants to ensure his survival, and the survival of his kind. He is no better really than Faustus, Marcus or Sebastian.
BUT - Vorador is incredibly fatalistic in SR2. He doesn't seem to care that much whether he lives or not. I think he must have given in, to allow Moebius' mercenary army to finally infiltrate his mansion. It was heavily defended enough to repel the Sarafan 500 years before, after all. Also, I can't believe Vorador would be foolish enough to work with the Hylden to achieve his survival - they clearly want to destroy all vampires.

3) The Hylden have bargained with him for Janos' life, exploiting Vorador's weakness for his Sire.
BUT - Vorador is not a gullible person, and he didn't appear to know that Janos had been resurrected. He may have agreed to assist them in Kain's destruction in exchange for the HOD, if he thought they possessed it.

In short, I think Vorador's character changed in BO2, and not for the better. He appeared weak and downtrodden, holding respect from the others only because of his past glories. I can imagine this Vorador being a traitor, but not the Vorador of BO1 and SR2. I can accept your theory might be entirely correct, although I personally don't like it as a plot development.
Perhaps something significant happened during the shift in timelines to make his character alter so drastically (ignoring the execution issue, as it presumably never happened). I guess we can't really comprehend the scale of the change in history until we play future games.
I hope they bring back the arrogant, decadant Vorador we all know and love. :)

Umah Bloodomen
26th Jan 2003, 13:52
Originally posted by Ardeth Silvereni
Aww, no. :(

Umah, every time I see you post that Vorador is probably a traitor to his kind, I feel all sentimental and hope that you're wrong. He was so strong in BO1 and SR2. I can't imagine him giving in to anyone like that, particularly not to betray his own descendands, and his own creator by aiding the Hylden.

Keepittrue is having a hard time with my notion as well. ;)

To be honest I would hold more respect for Vorador if my theory proves true. It will make him that much more interesting IMO. True he was strong in BO and SR2, which backs up my reason for his motives for becoming a traitor. Janos' death obviously had a traumatic influence on Vorador. Enough for him to give up on the Ancient dream and way of life (implied when he tells Raziel the murals are nothing more than fairytales) and definately enough to turn on Nosgoth in the egotistical way that he did (implied in the "Dark Gods" speech).

Vorador being a traitor is right up CD's alley. How ironic would that be? It's perfect. ;)


Originally posted by Ardeth Silvereni
I'm unsure of how much you've covered in other posts, but the only circumstances I can forsee where this might happen are:

1) Vorador believes Kain is a large enough threat so he would ally with the Hylden to get rid of him. Believing Janos is dead, he can somehow justfy this course of action to himself.
BUT - This begs the question, why didn't Vorador finish off Kain in the first place (after TSL defeated him) instead of having him nursed back to health?

2) Vorador simply wants to ensure his survival, and the survival of his kind. He is no better really than Faustus, Marcus or Sebastian.
BUT - Vorador is incredibly fatalistic in SR2. He doesn't seem to care that much whether he lives or not. I think he must have given in, to allow Moebius' mercenary army to finally infiltrate his mansion. It was heavily defended enough to repel the Sarafan 500 years before, after all. Also, I can't believe Vorador would be foolish enough to work with the Hylden to achieve his survival - they clearly want to destroy all vampires.

3) The Hylden have bargained with him for Janos' life, exploiting Vorador's weakness for his Sire.
BUT - Vorador is not a gullible person, and he didn't appear to know that Janos had been resurrected. He may have agreed to assist them in Kain's destruction in exchange for the HOD, if he thought they possessed it.

Here is where some of my evidence stems from, Ardeth. (In case you didn't get around to it).

Vorador...something fishy going on with this one. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4168&highlight=Vampire+reproduction+habits)


1. Vorador didn't finish Kain off, hoping that his impulsiveness would get him killed just fine on his own. Had it not been for Umah butting in, TSL would've finished him off at the point of her rescue during TSL and Kain's first encounter since he woke up. This leads me to further believe why Umah didn't know the entire scope of what she was doing. I feel also that Vorador (as leader of the Cabal) wasn't all that great of a leader. No offense, but I didn't really see him organizing anything or going out of his way to do anything in the meantime. He merely hung out around Sanctuary for the most part and played a great Devil's Advocate if you ask me (although we were only privileged to see one side of his game).

2. Your second notion goes into my propaganda theory which I stated in the "Has this been discussed yet?" thread. I also dabble a bit into the "smoke and mirrors" aspect as well.

3. Again back into the concept of "smoke and mirrors". I think this is why Janos was actually in beast form, so not to tip off anyone he may communicate with or who would sense him (e.g. Vorador). Vorador isn't gulliable, but how desperate is he? Obviously he can't do much on his own, he failed before (in BO and it cost him his life) and he really isn't accomplishing much in BO2, and there aren't that many strong and able-bodied vampires to rouse the species. People do the damndest things out of utter desperation.



Originally posted by Ardeth Silvereni

In short, I think Vorador's character changed in BO2, and not for the better. He appeared weak and downtrodden, holding respect from the others only because of his past glories. I can imagine this Vorador being a traitor, but not the Vorador of BO1 and SR2. I can accept your theory might be entirely correct, although I personally don't like it as a plot development.
Perhaps something significant happened during the shift in timelines to make his character alter so drastically (ignoring the execution issue, as it presumably never happened). I guess we can't really comprehend the scale of the change in history until we play future games.
I hope they bring back the arrogant, decadant Vorador we all know and love. :)

I think Vorador's character has lead to an interesting plot development and I will be anxious to see Kain punish him with an iron fist if/when its discovered he is a traitor. His change in character is all the more reason to question what the heck is going on here, because as you said, this isn't "like" Vorador at all. (Which I agree - especially from your BO/SR2 perspective). Now you raise an interesting theory altogether. You brought up the fact of Vorador's execution never occuring (based on how exactly time was altered of course), would this indicate a possible plea-bargain with our resident Time-Streamer to spare him if he could/would deliver Kain to his end? I do recall viewing a rather interesting statue of you know who also in BO2. ;)

I'll have to ponder this last bit for awhile to see what I can come up with.

As far as arrogant Vorador returning, I am sure we'll see parts of him in SR3 (compliments of time-streaming and whatnot) of course. :p

Soul Reaver
27th Jan 2003, 05:53
Wow! Much, much, much letters!:rolleyes:

Now to the point:
How do we know that Umah didn't go to TSL herself? Vorador told her Kain's history but maybe she misunderstood... Then she went to the SL offering to be his spy. But secretly she wanted to kill him and kill Kain...

Still I find your posts very impressive...

Umah Bloodomen
27th Jan 2003, 13:49
Originally posted by Soul Reaver
Wow! Much, much, much letters!:rolleyes:

Now to the point:
How do we know that Umah didn't go to TSL herself? Vorador told her Kain's history but maybe she misunderstood... Then she went to the SL offering to be his spy. But secretly she wanted to kill him and kill Kain...

Still I find your posts very impressive...

Because none of us are giving Umah that much credit. :rolleyes:

She is a relatively young vampire and not disciplined as Vorador or Kain and it is rather clear that she acts mostly on impulse. She didn't misunderstand Vorador's "history" of Kain, she let her feelings get in the way and it was disregarded because I feel she inherently felt Kain could be different and prove Vorador wrong. She didn't realize otherwise until she decided to pluck the Nexus Stone from Kain's chest and go off on her little tangent on how he would rid himself of the Cabal and commented on how Vorador was right.

Soul Reaver
27th Jan 2003, 16:52
Well...
I think that Umah was wrong to take the Nexus stone and Kain, angry and getting tired of betrayers didn't listen to Umah and killed her...
I think that I would have done the same (being in rage).
And we know that Kain was sorry but that's the way he is...
Thus he couldn't spare Umah because he would have seen weak in the eyes of Vampires yet to come...

Still I like your view Umah Bloodomen...:)
Except the part of Vorador being a traitor... ( I have a hunch that says Vorador: good Janos: good Raziel: good Kain: good (until some of the other good guys don't get in his way);) Elder god: EVIL Ariel: ? Townsfolk: Food...:p)
And do you remember the other vampires in the sanctuary?
The traitor could have been one of them...

Also... what happened to your site/half finished site?

Umah Bloodomen
27th Jan 2003, 17:25
Originally posted by Soul Reaver
Well...
I think that Umah was wrong to take the Nexus stone and Kain, angry and getting tired of betrayers didn't listen to Umah and killed her...
I think that I would have done the same (being in rage).
And we know that Kain was sorry but that's the way he is...
Thus he couldn't spare Umah because he would have seen weak in the eyes of Vampires yet to come...

Still I like your view Umah Bloodomen...:)
Except the part of Vorador being a traitor... ( I have a hunch that says Vorador: good Janos: good Raziel: good Kain: good (until some of the other good guys don't get in his way);) Elder god: EVIL Ariel: ? Townsfolk: Food...:p)
And do you remember the other vampires in the sanctuary?
The traitor could have been one of them...

Also... what happened to your site/half finished site?

Observations II: Was Kain Too Hard On Umah? (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2060&highlight=Observations+II)

An interesting look deeper into Umah's character is included with that link.

As far as Vorador being a traitor, I never expected to be a widely accepted belief, however I find it to be an interesting plot development and will absolutely love it if it proves true. I highly doubt the traitor is another Cabal member because it wouldn't have a dramatic affect on the storyline. Who cares if a no-name vampire sells them out? It's a whole different ballgame if Vorador does it though. Jaws will drop if it proves true.

As for my site: As The Chronoplast Turns... it has been up and running since October 15th 2002, and has generated a lot of traffic in that short time. I just opened a forum and archive section yesterday and have been working to polish off my 3 remaining game sections, as well as prepare for the SR3 section and have begun working on a Netscape-compatible version of my entire content.

A link can be found by looking at my Eidos Forum Profile, using the www option at the bottom of any of my responses or (when I use it) my signature image bearing the vampires of LOK.

Hash'ak'gik
27th Jan 2003, 21:43
I doubt Umah would want Kain dead as she obviously cared about him..;) ;) :D

chinese-soul-eater
28th Jan 2003, 02:22
I think that it is understandable why Umah took the stone
she didn't trust kain
she served vorador
she thought that if kain killed the sarafan lord then what would stop him from kiliing vorador and taking over

Umah wanted it to be like he kills the SL and then everything wouild be kool every vampire would be their own vampire
but she thought that kain would rule just like the SL so she wanted to do it herself and stop kain from being ruler

VegetaWorshipper
30th Jan 2003, 12:18
You know, a lot of good points regarding Vorador's... erratic behaviour (no, not erotic. Erotic has an 'o' in it) have been made here. Funny, I almost believe the theory could be correct.

You people are gonna have to pay my therapy bills.

Soul Reaver
13th Feb 2003, 15:01
Yeah, I can't deny, it would be exciting if Vorador was the traitor but it would also be a little disappointing...
Well, lets just say that Umah acted on what she thought right but she also hurt Kain's (selfrespect?/feelings?) and Kain killed her...
I think that we'll just have to wait for the sequel...(If it concerns that)


:p This smilie is sooooo cute!!! But I think we should have a blue one and a blood-fanged one too...

BTW: I have some troubles with posting and signing in...:mad:
When I try to post it asks me to sign in... I do that... I post... It asks me to login again and when I have done that it says something like: "No thread specified contact the webmaster..."
Please help me...:p

Edit: YES I could post...!!!!!!!!!:D :D :D

Umah Bloodomen
13th Feb 2003, 15:07
Login before you look at the forums and make sure you have your cookies enabled properly to ensure you don't continue having problems.

Chris Mishima
14th Feb 2003, 22:51
BTW: I have some troubles with posting and signing in...
When I try to post it asks me to sign in... I do that... I post... It asks me to login again and when I have done that it says something like: "No thread specified contact the webmaster..."

Yeah, I've had that problem for months. I'd have to open up Netscape to post and I'm too lazy to do that. But it appears that everything is fixed now. Strange.

Soul Reaver
15th Feb 2003, 08:22
I logged in using Mozilla before viewing the forums and... Success!

VegetaWorshipper
15th Feb 2003, 12:56
Aaaah, bless... Umah hurt Kain's feelings...

*smacks Umah for hurting Kain's feelings*

Look, you made him cry!

Scathach
15th Feb 2003, 14:55
Kain dosn't need Umah when he's got me and VW :D ;) Isn't that right, VW?

*hugs Kain and kisses his cheek* There, there, don't cry.

VegetaWorshipper
17th Feb 2003, 13:43
Damned straight.

*hugs Kain*

He's such a sweetie, yes he is, yes he is...

*rapes Kain*

Soul Reaver
19th Feb 2003, 05:48
Vorador will use the timestreaming chamber and save Umah. But then Kain realizes that something bad has happened and Nosgoth is DOOMED... again. And that's BO3.;)

Nah... they'll think of something better but I'd like to see Umah again. Maybe if Raziel gained more powers then maybe he could make the dead live(Vamps). So Umah could be resurrected.:rolleyes:

Or maybe... *goes crazy and starts to run around the apartment crying out loud all the time* but noone can hear him, he is so lonely.:D

VegetaWorshipper
19th Feb 2003, 12:51
*falls to her knees and prays to the Great Amy Hennig*

Don't bring Umah back, don't bring Umah back, please don't bring Umah back, I beg of you...

Scathach
19th Feb 2003, 15:03
*comforts Kain after VW is finished with him* There, there.....

Hash'ak'gik
19th Feb 2003, 17:50
VW, Scathach, you two need help. Fast.;):p:cool:

Esoteric
20th Feb 2003, 03:42
Dunno how related to the argument this is, but I read a buncha stuff concerning Vorador and felt the need to interject something about Vorador and his apparent non-involment in helping to defeat the SL and the Sarafan.

It is apparent that Vorador is the only one who can create vampires - that in itself is a big reason not to put his neck on the line. Also, raising vampires seems to be a time consuming and energy draining thing. Sure he could make lots of vampires, but what good is a bunch of weak vampire over a few strong ones? Sure numbers are great, but the Sarafan would likely cleave through them with ease. A handful of good, strong vamps is better than an army of impotent ones, in my opinion.

Note Kain's effort to make too many vampires at once... his lieutenants got successivly weaker as he made them one after another. I think the main thing that made fledglings strong was that Kain himself was unusually strong to begin with. Though I wonder how strong his childer really were in comparison to the garden variety Vorador can make.

Perhaps Vorador was a spy, but I don't think it makes sense. Why would the SL ally with Vorador? He clearly wants the Cabal dead, I mean they were building the Device to annihilate the vampires (and everyone else?). Vorador makes sure to fling Kain into all manner of dangerous things, perhaps the reasoning is to get him killed, but that doesn't jive with why he bothered to allow Kain's ressuraction in the first place.

As for Umah, I don't think she was a spy... however, it is obvious to me that Vorador and the Cabal thought Kain as expendable - a powerful tool to get what they wanted. I think Kain knew this and hence didn't trust Vorador. If anything was a desperate measure to save himself and the Cabal, then ressurecting Kain was desparate. Vorador and Umah both knew how dangerous Kain could be to anyone not willing to bend their knee to him when the time comes. Not only that, but to aid Kain meant he would grow steadily stronger as he defeated his enemies, regaining his dark Gifts and gaining new ones, at some point the Cabal would have to resolve the threat Kain posed AND defeat the SL in the process. It was a dangerous game from the start - one that Vorador executed cleverly. Of course, by the time Kain got the Nexus Stone (for the Cabal to then take from him), he had become too strong. Or more importantly, Umah wasn't strong enough. The gamble failed.

Hence, Umah was right in her little dialog with Kain before she takes the Nexus Stone. In fact, I think that perhaps Vorador and Umah planned all along to get the Nexus Stone from Kain once he managed to get it. Reducing the risk to the Cabal to get it themselves - and once they had it, they could take the SL on since the Soul Reaver would no longer be the threat we all know it is to anyone caught by its edge. I think the Cabal did everything they could to secure their victory, the trouble is, they did it with Kain - who turned out to be a traitor to the vampire race in his own way.

I don't see Vorador or the Cabal making it to the SR1 era. Kain's motivations aren't for the betterment of vampires... it is for the betterment of himself and his vision. It's either his way, or not at all and if vampires die in the process, oh well. Kinda counter productive to the "betterment of the vampire race", if you ask me. He shows no loyalties to other vampires, yet expects loyalty from them. I think Vorador was always extremely devoted to the cause of vampires and the character we see in BO2 reflects that. I prefered his sadistic version, but I think I understand his bo2 incarnation as well and sympathise.

Anyways, that's my two cents worth. Later! :)

VegetaWorshipper
21st Feb 2003, 11:41
Of course Vorador's all for the betterment of the Vampire race. Janos created him, he's very loyal to Janos. It's no secret that they at least seem to love eachother to bits. So Vorador's naturally going to htink vampires are great because Janos taught him so.

Scathach
21st Feb 2003, 21:06
Don't worry Hash, those nice people in the white coats gave me some little pill things to take when they let me out. :D :D

VegetaWorshipper
22nd Feb 2003, 13:38
They're letting you out? You lucky bastard...

Hash'ak'gik
22nd Feb 2003, 22:20
Don't worry Scathach, we can sort that little problem. *Steps back to reveal the nice men in white coats.* ;):p:cool:

'Tis for your own good Scath.

Scathach
22nd Feb 2003, 22:35
Lool. You really are the puppetmaster arn't you? *is dragged of by the people in white coats while yelling something about the cats told her to do it*

VegetaWorshipper
24th Feb 2003, 13:34
*points and shouts*

What I wouldn't give to be dragged down the corridor!! You lucky, lucky bastard! They must think the sun shines out of your arse!! You lucky bastard!!

Soul Reaver
1st Mar 2003, 09:50
*cough* *cough*. Been sick, have I. Well now I'm getting well again nothing to worry about. *rises from the coffin with blood-dripping-fangs* Thought I'd say hello...

VegetaWorshipper
1st Mar 2003, 10:03
*shouts*

Hiiiiiii!!! How ya doin', buddy!? :D

TG_Syd
1st Mar 2003, 19:53
I got into this a bit late but here's what I think:

If you look at some of the other vamps in The Cabal they also have clothing and armor with the symbol of the Sarafan on them. Nopw this leads me to one of three different conclusions:

1) The vampires Vorador "created" were originally Sarafan.

2) When a vampire in the cabal killed a Sarafan he wore a piece of armor as a trophy.

3) Vorador had sold out his kind to the Sarafan

Umah Bloodomen
1st Mar 2003, 20:16
Originally posted by TG_Syd
I got into this a bit late but here's what I think:

If you look at some of the other vamps in The Cabal they also have clothing and armor with the symbol of the Sarafan on them. Nopw this leads me to one of three different conclusions:

1) The vampires Vorador "created" were originally Sarafan.

2) When a vampire in the cabal killed a Sarafan he wore a piece of armor as a trophy.

3) Vorador had sold out his kind to the Sarafan

Interesting opinion here.

I don't think Vorador would sire former Sarafan. Kain seemed like the only being with the desire to commit such a blasphemous act. Vorador for the most part stays out of the "spotlight" and it is clear that after Kain's defeat at the hands of The Sarafan Lord that there was a problem standing up to the Sarafan, implying that I don't think Vorador had the chutzpah to take them on individually or as a whole, for the most part by himself. We also need to consider that there is a chance that some of his army (from the opening FMV of BO2) were spared and returned to their hideout beneath The Blue Lady Curios Shop (Sanctuary). This would also mean that a majority were created perhaps before the Sarafan Lord was able to reintroduce the Sarafan Order.

I like the trophy idea and I think this is the best option out of the ones you've presented. Very common for a war power to do so especially in the middle ages. I believe the Vikings were known to take trophies from their conquests, as were the Spanish.


I have been very opinionated on Vorador being a traitor lately. I've elaborated a bit more in a few other recent threads on this matter. It would not surprise me to know Vorador sold the Cabal out to the Sarafan. It's kind of open-ended at this point because either the Sarafan knew that Sanctuary existed (in order to keep tabs on the vampire activity so they could interfere with Kain) and simply left it alone to make it more inconspicuous as to being allied with Vorador, or Vorador didn't sell the Cabal out, but rather he sold only Kain out, and the Sarafan actually did not know that Sanctuary existed at all.

As I said, I think your trophy idea is the most plausible, IMO. It is really pretty hard to dispute and find flaws with it.

SirRaziel
1st Mar 2003, 23:26
Originally posted by TG_Syd
I got into this a bit late but here's what I think:

If you look at some of the other vamps in The Cabal they also have clothing and armor with the symbol of the Sarafan on them. Nopw this leads me to one of three different conclusions:

1) The vampires Vorador "created" were originally Sarafan.

2) When a vampire in the cabal killed a Sarafan he wore a piece of armor as a trophy.

3) Vorador had sold out his kind to the Sarafan

Fair enough point Though I'm only going with No 2

1) It's been done already, or may'be that where Kain got the Idea. Well He had the idea even before the Timeline changed.

2) For stealth yes, people are pretty stupid in Blood Omen 2 and barely tell human from Vampire. Even some lower ranking Sarafan couldn't identify Kain until he swung at them. As trophies even more plausable wearing the symbols of your enemy as a trophy is considered a great insult to their honour. Also that may have been the common type of armour avaliable those days.

3) If this is true then the Hylden might as well restore the Pillars themselves. Can there be one character in this series who isn't a traitor.

Soul Reaver
3rd Mar 2003, 05:53
Very interesting... very interesting indeed. I have always liked the sweet irony of Kain making Raz and the co. his liuetenants ;). Now to the 1, 2 and 3.

1) Possible, but doubtable. There is a chance he chose from the Sarafan because the Sarafan were already strong and blinded in quite good...

2) Perhaps. I see it a bit too risky to walk down the streets wearing Sarafan armor and not being one of them... The Sarafan would clearly recognize you by those annoying christmas-lights they have put on their armor, but otherwise I think it would work.

3) Maybe. I don't personally like this. I've always thought of Vorador with respect. When I first saw him I thought: "That's a vampire-lord alright!". I don't think HE sold his kind out.

I just thought this up. (concerning the Ancients and the evolution) Maybe the Ancients who were weaker couldn't maintain their vampire form and (d)evolved into humans thus coming the prey for the Hylden and other (stronger) Ancients... ;)

BTW: VW, I'm feeling better already.

DarkWraith
3rd Mar 2003, 09:17
Originally posted by Soul Reaver


I just thought this up. (concerning the Ancients and the evolution) Maybe the Ancients who were weaker couldn't maintain their vampire form and (d)evolved into humans thus coming the prey for the Hylden and other (stronger) Ancients... ;)

Methinks not dear friend. although if there is some evidence to back this up.:)

I seem to remember Humans were around anyway. But they were probably living in mud huts when the wars of the ancients.
DW:p

SirRaziel
3rd Mar 2003, 12:48
A Hylden taunting a human slave in the Hylden City in a mist filled room verifies that humans are not devolved vampires. Just funny to see what the slave is more scared of Hylden or Kain?

Scathach
3rd Mar 2003, 20:34
I think it was Kain, he screamed when he saw me, which hurt me :(. After all, I was there to save the world from the evil old mencross dressing aliens. (okay, I was slaughtering any human who dared to cross my path, but that's not the point here.)

SirRaziel
4th Mar 2003, 01:07
Originally posted by Scathach
I think it was Kain, he screamed when he saw me, which hurt me :(. After all, I was there to save the world from the evil old mencross dressing aliens. (okay, I was slaughtering any human who dared to cross my path, but that's not the point here.)

And a noble cause it was as well. But may'be Kain was screaming in awe of you. And I'd be flattered not many things scare Kain.

Soul Reaver
4th Mar 2003, 05:47
Hmm... you do have a point there DW.
I think the Hylden in the city was talking to a human something like this:
" We gave you everything. We gave you technology. Before we came you were just
living in mud huts. Now the time is to take all that back." "Please, no." "HAHAHA" and he killed the poor guy.

SO: never trust the Hylden. Vote for VP "Vampire Party". We can provide you with lotsa chao... err peace. <- Just propaganda...;)

VegetaWorshipper
4th Mar 2003, 12:10
*grins*

Trophies are good! I'm all for trophies!

Although severed and shrunken heads are more my style...

Umah Bloodomen
4th Mar 2003, 13:01
"Looks as though we've pretty much given up on the original Umah, traitor theory by now...

... What a shame... :rolleyes: "


Oh yeah, not to mention the rest of the crap also added to this thread. :o

TempySmurf
4th Mar 2003, 15:08
Or maybe Vorador's working for squidy.

The more war is dragged out, the more death there is.

And if squidy just happens to be Janos.

DarkWraith
4th Mar 2003, 19:27
Originally posted by TempySmurf
And if squidy just happens to be Janos.

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGg

Hash'ak'gik
4th Mar 2003, 21:29
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

"Looks as though we've pretty much given up on the original Umah, traitor theory by now...

... What a shame... :rolleyes: "


Oh yeah, not to mention the rest of the crap also added to this thread. :o
Agreed. Can we go back to sanity now?:)

Here's my theory:
1)Umah captured by Sarafan.
2)Sarafan lord points out Kain may betray Cabal and offers her a pact; if she sells Kain out, cabal live.
3)Kain rescues Umah.
4)Umah goes back to SL and agrees to pact.
5)Umah steals N. stone.
6) She takes it to SL. SL betrays her. She escapes. Kain kills her.

sorry for bad grammer. neeeedd sssslllllleeeeeeepppp...

Soul Reaver
5th Mar 2003, 07:12
Pretty good theory but why would the SL let Umah escape when he was about to betray her. I think he would have sealed the place with lots of guards so Umah couldn't get out.

Scathach
5th Mar 2003, 19:32
Fine, i'm going with the trophy idea. It's an insult to the Sarafan. "HA! We whooped you're soilder's arse, beat him over the head with a club a few times, and drained his blood, and now we're gonna nick his boots and wear them so that everyone knows that you're all a bunch of pushovers! HA! You want some, huh? Come one then! I'll take you all on! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"

EDIT: Silly spelling error

VegetaWorshipper
6th Mar 2003, 12:25
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

"Looks as though we've pretty much given up on the original Umah, traitor theory by now...

... What a shame... :rolleyes: "


Oh yeah, not to mention the rest of the crap also added to this thread. :o

Hey, dammit! I was on topic! What's that supposed to mean!?

*is angry and annoyed*

Umah Bloodomen
6th Mar 2003, 22:24
The only contributions you've had to the topic of this thread are posts 13 on the first page, post 2 on the second (just barely, mind you) and post 6 on the second. The rest of your posts in this thread have been immature notions of spam regarding you "raping Kain" amongst other asinine things. I, as well as other people, should not have to read through crap to enjoy this thread. Do us a favor and take it somewhere else for once. :rolleyes: :o

Soul Reaver
7th Mar 2003, 05:40
Not siding...

Well, when they killed the sarafan why didn't they want to turn them into vampires. They were near extinction for crying out loud. Maybe Umah didn't possess the means of turning them into vamps?

Umah Bloodomen
7th Mar 2003, 05:46
Warpsavant and I got into a rather lengthy discussion in regards to vampiric reproduction habits. You can read that over here. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2356&highlight=Vampire+reproduction+habits) We feel that a vampire's ability to sire comes along as they age. We don't feel that Umah was actually old enough to sire to be honest. We estimated her age at about a little younger than 200. On account we didn't see her going over battle plans or fighting alongside Kain in BO2's opening FMV. (Which occurred 400 years prior to BO2. Kain was merely unconscious for the latter 200 years which she admitted caring for him during that time).

VegetaWorshipper
7th Mar 2003, 11:46
*grumbles*

Well fine, then. Forgive me for forgetting entirely about this forum and its people. Clearly I'm not wanted.

Good day.

Hash'ak'gik
8th Mar 2003, 22:05
I again agree with Umah. All this fangirl jibberish is annoying now. You don't need to be so sensitive when Umah points this out. You weren't staying on topic, you were talking about your... fantisies. That is all.:)

I'll expand my theory a bit to show Umahs eligence (sp?) adn her feelings.

1) To the cabal.
2)To the cabal, she doubts Kain for the first time.
3)To the Cabal, she pushes her doubt aside for the moment. Later she realises that the SL is right.
4)To the Cabal and the SL. She's doing what she thinks is right for the cabal.
5)To Kain? She realises she has been used and betrayed. She is ashamed of herself. She begs Kains forgivness, perhaps looking to redeem herself, but Kain has none to give.
6)She's dead, duh.:p

SirRaziel
10th Mar 2003, 03:33
The reason I believe Umah betrays Kain is because like Vorador she loves her kind too much and doesn't want them to ruled under a dictatorship. Kain is an ally not a part of the Cabal so if Kain wins like he said to the victor go the spoils. Meaning the Cabal gets bugger all and thanks to Umah's betrayal they get just what Umah feared the possiblity Kain will rule with an Iron fist. As for Kain I think he's more of a figurehead ruler. He may be the No 1 power in Nosgoth but lets the Luitenants take care of running the place while sat there relaxing on his throne, he even said that he'd let the Cabal do what they like after he conquers Nosgoth. Kain did have feelings for Umah and was hurt by her betrayal, and even more hurt when he had to kill her. Umah acted to benefit all Vampires problem is Kain didn't approve of her tactics.

Soul Reaver
10th Mar 2003, 05:38
Good... good.
Thanks Umah it was very educating!
Also I figure the ability to sire would (like the dark gifts) evolve differently in every vampire. Umah was too young and didn't possess the means (as I mentioned before) to create a vampire. Kain couldn't because he was transformed into a vampire after his death. Vorador couldn't because he lacked the strenghth. Other vampires were too young.

All that left the vampires in an awfully bad position. The Sarafan would come and crush them with hordes of skilled (:confused:) fighters.

But as you all know Kain saved the day. YAY!

Back to the oringinal theory.
Maybe Umah wanted secretly to defeat the SL with the Nexus-Stone and after that wait. Then she would evolve and be able to create an army of vampire and there wouldn't have been anyone strong enough to fight her and the hordes of the undead...
We all know how pointless the Sarafan can be when they have no leader. First ? then Moebius and then SL and after that: finally comes Kain's rule.

Hash'ak'gik
10th Mar 2003, 19:09
SirRaziel- That's excactly the reason Umah gave for her own actions. Doesn't make it true.:) Or she's not telling the whole story.

Soul Reaver-Umah never struck me as power hungry. Anyway I think Umah was clever enough to realise Kain or Vorador would kick her undead rear end before she tried, Soul Reaver or no Soul Reaver.:cool:

SirRaziel
11th Mar 2003, 03:32
Originally posted by Hash'ak'gik
SirRaziel- That's excactly the reason Umah gave for her own actions. Doesn't make it true.:) Or she's not telling the whole story.

Soul Reaver-Umah never struck me as power hungry. Anyway I think Umah was clever enough to realise Kain or Vorador would kick her undead rear end before she tried, Soul Reaver or no Soul Reaver.:cool:

I said I believe I never said it was true.

Soul Reaver
11th Mar 2003, 05:36
Nah! I think that Vorador wouldn't have killed her but only counselled her and stopped Kain from killing her. Vorador was too weak and too bonded to Umah at that time...

Hash'ak'gik
11th Mar 2003, 17:22
Originally posted by SirRaziel
I said I believe I never said it was true.
Eh?:confused:

Scathach
12th Mar 2003, 21:51
Isn't saying you believe in something the same as saying it's true? :rolleyes:

Angel of Music
13th Mar 2003, 03:43
Originally posted by Scathach
Isn't saying you believe in something the same as saying it's true? :rolleyes:

My dear, I will step on a limb here and assume that you are a high school student, or the British equivalent. Allow me to say that your question is one of the first topics discussed in any Introductory Philosophy course offered at almost any university. The short answer is no. The full answer is that, depending upon one's school of thought, we cannot know anything we have not experienced. Such as: I believe that the planet Neptune is a very large frozen ocean. Nasa says that the planet Neptune is a very large frozen ocean. But as neither myself nor Nasa has experienced the Neptune firsthand, neither of us know that the planet Neptune is a large frozen ocean. Now, as this relates to truth, for something to be considered a truth, it must be known. Example: I believe that if I drop something, it will fall. The idea that it will fall is supported by previous experiences, where every time I have dropped something it has fallen. Again, I don't know for sure whether or not the ball will fall this time, but I assume so because every other ball ever dropped has fallen. The problem here is that eventually we arrive at the conclusion that we cannot ever know anything. Now, this is not to say that the ball will not fall this time, or that Neptune is not a great frozen sea, but we cannot know for sure until we experience it. The planet example differs from the action of dropping a ball in that Neptune is static, while the ball is dropped repeatedly. To say that one knew that a ball would fall is to predict the future. To say that Neptune was a frozen ocean is to state a fact, provided one had been there and perceived firsthand the properties of the planet. Therefore, truth and belief are two entirely different animals.

Violator
13th Mar 2003, 04:57
Thats a very interesting point you made there Angel, makes me think about how people used to think Earth was the center of the universe, just because they believed it does not make it the truth :D

Scathach
13th Mar 2003, 18:27
Okay, I stand corrected then :). You're right Angel, I am the British equivalent of a High School Student (that would be Secondary School for anyone whose curious). I'm young with a lot to learn yet, it seems.... :)

CthulhuSean
16th Aug 2004, 00:26
In Blood Omen 2 it is said all vampires (Ancient Vampire Descendants) possess Dark Gifts that develop differently in each of them. Faustus had the Jump Gift, Marcus with Mind Control, Sebastian was incredibly fast, and Magnus had the Immolation. What did Umah have? The only thing we ever witnessed was teleportation, but she said it was magic or something. Also, what of Vorador and the rest of the Cabal? Janos didnt seem to have anything due to his cursed state, he was Gifted enough as it was.

kaintheantihylden
16th Aug 2004, 01:04
I know you kill her and its just a waist of time exept you get a little bit of vengence.,

Umah Bloodomen
16th Aug 2004, 01:08
CthulhuSean ~ As I originally posted in this thread from 2002, (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3282&highlight=Umahs+dark+gift)


As for Umah's Dark Gift, she didn't have any. She was too young (remember she was basically a fledgling...not more than 200 years old seeing Kain knew nothing of her in the 200 years following BO1 and before he went comatose in the 200 years pre BO2. Remember that BO2 when Kain awakens happens 400 years after BO1). Her Dark Gift was the basic Dark Gift of all vampires. I am sure she could use Mist (seeing she taught Kain to remember) and of course Teleport (which she most likely picked up from her sire, Vorador). Whisper was established as a gift and I am inclined to believe that Fury would've been her only other gift.

This implies that Umah only possessed the most "basic" of the dark gifts. I still am inclined to believe she possessed Fury although we never witnessed her actually use it.

mortaniusgod
18th Aug 2004, 03:20
umah's dark gifts are: closing threads and banning users :D

Umah Bloodomen
18th Aug 2004, 14:05
Originally posted by mortaniusgod
umah's dark gifts are: closing threads and banning users :D

Those are "dark" gifts? :D ;)

mortaniusgod
19th Aug 2004, 00:36
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Those are "dark" gifts? :D ;)
it depends on which side you are :D LOL

gklok
24th Aug 2004, 23:06
What about the super jump? We see her use it to jump from one rooftop to another after Kain kills Faustus, and if your saying this is a basic dark gift that all vampires have, then what is Faustus' actual dark gift?

WraithStar
28th Aug 2004, 03:46
Did Umah use a long jump? It's really fuzzy in my mind but I thought she just jumped normally.

gklok
28th Aug 2004, 03:48
Nope, she does use it, I remember seeing her jump from one rooftop to the next, its in the cinematic after you kill Faustus.

Reaver666
27th Nov 2004, 20:48
I know it was probably posted before, but seriously, did Kain love her? I mean he seemed pretty let down more than pissed after what happened at the Warves and also alot more concerned with her injuries at the Stronghold. Also that whole "queen" statement. What does everyone think?

Ardeth Silvereni
28th Nov 2004, 17:21
I've actually been thinking about this a lot recently. :)

I don't think Kain 'loved' Umah by the time they entered the Wharves together. However, he obviously felt affection and admiration for her - and most importantly - he trusted her. Given time, I think they could have had a full-blown romantic relationship, although in my opinion, it was always going to be short lived.

It could have worked for a while if Kain had clearly agreed to co-exist with the Cabal, or if Umah had taken his "you may do whatever you wish" comment at face value. I think he might have tolerated the Cabal post-Blood Omen 2 to make her happy, provided they stayed well out of his way. With Umah as a go-between, they would tolerate him too. Kain's decision to destroy them (which seemed pretty inevitable) could have been delayed until a century later, when Kain learned how to create vampires without Vorador's help.

I find it difficult to place Umah at Kain's side following Raziel's vampiric rebirth, but I can picture a hundred years prior to that when their relationship could have worked perfectly, if only Kain had made that concession to leave the Cabal alone for a while. Kain and Umah's relationship was pretty much one of equals. Kain could co-exist with a strong woman because she couldn't usurp him; they complimented each other rather than being in competition, so he could relax and show his feelings. I think Kain and Umah's partnership could have been passionate and loving as they destroyed the remains of the Sarafan army together.

I would give them that century.

DemonicDC
28th Nov 2004, 17:59
I think if she did not betray him like she did, or if he did feel to sorry to kill her, it would have been different indeed.

DMraider
30th Sep 2005, 19:40
Let`s put it this way. Umah was just a nice vampire but she thought Kain wouldn`t give the other vampires any freedom.

When she was almost slain by the Sarafan I am pretty sure she wouldn`t betray Kain again. Still Kain was misled alot of times during his life, he can`t take any risks.

soothsayer
30th Sep 2005, 20:44
Dark Gifts
Faustis-jump
a move that uses an enhanced version of both float and vampire strength to move long distances quickly.
Sabastian-Berserk
Using vampire energy to move at incredible speed, allows him to strike in quick succession and run so quickly that he can stay on surfaces and jump great chasms.
Uhma-???
Being about 200 years old she should have at least some dark gift.
She has been known to teleport, even to place other than sanctuary, however the fact that the anti-magic field in the sarafan prison stopped her from doing this proves that it is magical in nature. She does however seem to possess great strength and speed and magic, maybe following in Vorador's clove steps.

Romantics aside, I think Uhma's death was necessary. From fate's perspective at least. History tend to move as little as it has too each time it is changed. And although Raziel made the changes that made BO2 possible, he ultimately couldn't make any changes that would affect his own growth. And having Uhma as him mum would be a rather big change.

Nexus Reaver
24th Oct 2005, 01:38
No offense Sootsayer but Umah only couldnt teleport in the enclosed prison cell...this implies that there are restrictions to her dark gift, sort of like Kains mist form, or whether he can super jump to certain places...i still believe that Umah used teleport as a dark gift, possibly from her sire Vorador(for clarification on my last comment look at the Vorador cutscene in SR2)

soothsayer
24th Oct 2005, 02:35
But dark gifts tend to be supernatural abilities. And Umah couldn't teleport in the sarafan prison because of it's antimagic feild. So it has to be a magical ability. Kain could use his dark gifts just fine in that cell.

Nexus Reaver
24th Oct 2005, 02:37
1. Kain didnt use any dark gifts in the cell

2. Umah was chained up and weak

3.No one said there was an anti magic field, only you did

soothsayer
24th Oct 2005, 02:58
Umah:
It's nothing. we must get to the roof. Once I am outside these ensorcered walls, I can use a spell to transport us back to Sanctuary.

There was so an anti magic feild, it stopped her from teleporting, but it didn't stop Kain from using jump or TK while inside.

Umah Bloodomen
24th Oct 2005, 02:59
.No one said there was an anti magic field, only you did

Actually, the field soothsayer is referring to is a Ward Gate, while prevented Kain from reaching Umah, also prevented her from reaching freedom.

And just for kicks:


The Ward Gates were devices used by the Sarafan in their ceaseless war against the vampires; powered by Glyph Energy, they prevented vampires moving freely through Meridian's streets, although they would not stop humans from passing through. If a vampire touched an activated Ward Gate, it would repel them and burn them as if it was a wall of fire.

soothsayer
24th Oct 2005, 03:36
I don't think it was the ward Gate that stopped her, it was only surounding her from the frount. And it seems only to be a barrier, I think you can charm and TK through it. There was something in that room that stopped spell casting, the hylden were a inginuitive race fighting a race of magic casters, so it doesn't surpise me that they could buid that sort of thing.

Nexus Reaver
25th Oct 2005, 00:27
I know about the ward gate UmahBO..but Umah was able to teleport past them...so i dont think that really affected her tleporting

WraithStar
25th Oct 2005, 17:45
Umah was obviously weakened. Maybe she just didn't have enough energy/rage/whatever fuels her dark gifts, so she had to resort to a sanctuary spell. She definitely teleports around, but that doesn't mean she can't use spells as well.

ScarletLady
19th Feb 2006, 20:38
I think he didn't. His feeling (if any) towards Umah seems to me a pure desire. He says: 'You could've been my queen...' But... on what cost? It would have been an unequal relationship - she must have been subordinated to Kain, her undisputable, infallible Sire. Poor girl...

When he killed her, I thought, 'another mysogynist'. And I couldn't continue the game. He appeared to me a monster.

WraithStar
20th Feb 2006, 18:04
I think that Kain did have feelings for Umah. Maybe he didn't know her long enough for it to be true love, but I think that he did care about her. As far as I'm concerned, Kain is not a misogynist. He's a megalomaniac, pure and simple. He wants to be the undisputed ruler of Nosgoth and he won't let *anyone* get in his way. Not Faustus, not Marcus, not Sebastian, not the Sarafan Lord, and not even Umah. He treated her the same as he treated every other person that challenged his rule. Perhaps calling Kain a monster is a legitimate statement, but I disagree with your reason for doing so.

Kaizainiel
21st Feb 2006, 14:35
This has probally been said but over a hundred posts to read through,remeber history cant be altered although then how is without the parradox of the reaver,so you see she had to die so the events of soul reaver would be intact.
for the same reason the hylden lord had to be killed as the rest of the cabaul.

Did he love her? it seems so and I think he knew she wasnt working for the hylden but coldnt face it that it was a direct betrayal.

Mekairinek
5th Apr 2006, 14:49
I figure some of the Umah fans here would like to read this:

<MOD EDIT> URL removed. </MOD EDIT>

I posted that just last night after I got BO2. Yes, I'm fed up with all the Umah hate. I don't mind (or care) if people don't like her, but the mindless bashing is what really gets me.

So yeah, thought y'all might like to read that. ^^

Umah Bloodomen
5th Apr 2006, 21:59
I figure some of the Umah fans here would like to read this:

<MOD EDIT> URL removed. </MOD EDIT>

I posted that just last night after I got BO2. Yes, I'm fed up with all the Umah hate. I don't mind (or care) if people don't like her, but the mindless bashing is what really gets me.

So yeah, thought y'all might like to read that. ^^

I'm afraid there is an aspect of what you linked to that is in violation of our TOU (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=53694) (which you agreed to upon registering and prior to posting). You're advised to clean the language up and repost your thoughts or resort to sharing it via private channels (PM's and/or email). In the meantime, your link has been removed accordingly.

In the future, we request the LOK series (and are caught by our forum censors) that's probably a good indication you shouldn't use/link to them here.

Thanks. :)

Mekairinek
11th Apr 2006, 04:24
Ehehehehe... aww jeez. Sorry about that! ^^;;;;;

demon_overdrive
28th Apr 2006, 10:49
Did he love her? it seems so and I think he knew she wasnt working for the hylden but couldnt face it that it was a direct betrayal.
Man i totally agree with that. Had it not been a betrayal, there future would have been great but at the same time it would have definitely altered the events of the soul reaver which would have resulted in a paradox but it didn't happen as she died as always.

Zyden
15th May 2006, 22:06
i think kain deeply regreted what happened in the wharves...you know he was trying to defend his actions later.

Kain:Blah, blah ,blah...your latest spy Umah!
Sarafan lord:Umah? I have no spy called Umah.
Kain:You lie!!!

See trying to defend himself...

NexusStone
10th Jun 2007, 13:04
Umah have jump, dark gift. In the chapter : Lower City he jumps with the dark gift.

NexusStone
10th Jun 2007, 13:07
How can help me ?
How know how i can beat Sebastian at the Industrial Qrt ? Message me at : janos_audron2007@yahoo.com .:whistle: :)

NexusStone
22nd Jun 2007, 17:27
Kain:
We meet again, Umah.

Umah: (breathlessly)
Kain...

Kain:
Yes. Kain.
I thought you were to bring the Sarafan Lord to his knees.

Umah:
I thought...

Umah collapses to the ground.

Kain:
I know.

Kain drops to one knee beside her as she speaks.

Umah:
It seems... I was wrong. I could not carry the fight... alone.

Kain:
You were brave to try.

Umah:
Kain... I'm dying.

Kain:
Yes. You are.

Umah:
I need your blood. Please. You can save me.

Kain bends forward and takes the Nexus Stone back.

Kain:
I know.
Tell me, child. Do you see me ruling Nosgoth?

Umah:
Yes, yes. I see it now.

Kain:
And do you believe that Nosgoth rightly belongs to me?

Umah:
I do - I believe it, Kain. Please!

Kain:
Then you may die, knowing the truth.

Kain strikes Umah with his claws.

Umah: (dying)
No!

Kain:
You should never have betrayed me.
You could have been my queen.

Umah:
Kain...

Umah dies.

NexusStone
22nd Jun 2007, 17:28
Kain:
Silence, demon.
Your need to corrupt is only too apparent. But every traitor that you have turned to your will from my side, even Umah, your latest spy, is dead.

The Sarafan Lord:
Umah? I have no spy called Umah.

Kain:
You lie!

Linikratyo
18th Aug 2008, 16:43
well, I thought I read somewhere in the forums about Umah taken away by someone with wings in the Wharves and I wanted to check it, but I couldn't find the winged guy..... Now I cannot find the post where it is said!! :(

well........ if anyone can give me an idea of this winged guy and where to find him then that would be awsome!! :D

BTW: I knew a guy who said that he saw a part of LoK called Umah's Revenge...... with a winged guy or something, but he says a lot of stuff that isn't true............. :scratch:

VendavalEste
24th Aug 2008, 06:17
well, I thought I read somewhere in the forums about Umah taken away by someone with wings in the Wharves and I wanted to check it, but I couldn't find the winged guy..... Now I cannot find the post where it is said!! :(

well........ if anyone can give me an idea of this winged guy and where to find him then that would be awsome!! :D

BTW: I knew a guy who said that he saw a part of LoK called Umah's Revenge...... with a winged guy or something, but he says a lot of stuff that isn't true............. :scratch:

Yup, that's all a load of rubbish.