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View Full Version : huh, waddya know - just noticed a mistake in mission 8



Yakkalot
7th Jul 2002, 23:38
Funnily, only dawned on me last night, in mission 8 the downed bomber is an A-26, they didn't enter service with the roving ninth til november of '44, and the mission takes place in June.

And there's also the mystery as to how it got there, must've floated down gently like a feather...

1shot1kill
8th Jul 2002, 20:15
Well no, cos as you can see to the left (seen from the camera angle when the mission starts) there are alot of trees cut down by it, so it did not go down gently.

Ranger
12th Jul 2002, 09:27
Ahem! its B-26 Marauder

1shot1kill
12th Jul 2002, 13:20
Oh no, /me sees arguement coming up.

Twitch
12th Jul 2002, 15:34
No it is a Douglas A-26 Invader which entered England in September 1944 and was in action with the 553rd Bomb Squadron based at Dunmow at that time.

Ranger
12th Jul 2002, 17:45
B-26 Marauder: http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/b-26%20b%20c.jpg

I know its a model but...

Mack the Knife
12th Jul 2002, 18:29
The Debate
A-26 vs. B-26
the roving ninth vs. 553rd Bomb Squadron
november of '44 vs. September 1944

The Scores
yak:
+2 points for noticing this
+1 point for "who cares" infomation
-1 point for starting an argument
+1 point for living in australia

ranger:
+2 point for refuting yak's "who cares" information
-1 point for not including supporting documenation in his first post
+3 points for the model airplane picture

twitch:
+3 points for solid information
-1 point for his nickname
+1 for entering an argument in his first post

1shot1kill
12th Jul 2002, 21:03
It's a plane and it explains how the soldiers got there, isn't that enough info? :D

Twitch
15th Jul 2002, 15:40
The A-26 was a 3 seater with a squared off fuselage. The B-26 had a very round fuselage. Either way the GIs couldn't have gotten ther on it. They are probably advance recon and walked in.

Mack- I'm a reviewer and historical combat writer so I had to comment.

1shot1kill
15th Jul 2002, 15:50
Why does it matter? plane crashed, cut down some trees, stopped moving in water, soldiers behind enemy lines, the pilots... hell knows where they are... and as a result you got a commandos 2 mission, be happy. :D

Twitch
16th Jul 2002, 14:40
That's the point, for the game itself it doesn't. Being an aviation historical writer I just had to mention Ranger's minor error. Most of the stuff in this game or any is there for the fun of the gameplay anyhow.

BTW- can anyone neame the Japanese flying boat in Savo?

Yakkalot
20th Jul 2002, 01:33
What do you mean "aviation historical writer"?
Where do you wright and who for?
or do you mean Aviation historian?
Professional or part-time?
It's just we've had a lot of kids waltz in here having read one book and claim they've got degree's in military history and all sorts.
(not saying your one of them, just hoping for another intelligent life form on these boards) :)

And the plane in savo is a H8K emily. IIRC the pilot actually says "if you help me i'll fly you out of here in the emily over there" ;)

Ranger, trust me on this one, as both an aviation historian who's spent countless multitudes of hours pouring over technical documents and work on restoring vintage aircraft with the Northern Territory Aviation history museum, as well as the fact that in my job being what puts food on my table is primarily dependent on my ablity to identify minute details from photos I think i'm qualified to tell the difference between two very different aircraft. ;)

Now in your defence, the A-26 was changed to B-26 after the war, long after the baltimore whore left service, but you clearly stated marauder.

So lets play a little game with the forum shall we?

here are two three view drawings of the two 'twenty sixes, now lets see who can match up which one to be the one in mission eight? Shall we?

Here is the twenty six from the game.
(not the best pic, but the only one I was bothered to find)
http://images.gamespot.co.uk/images/pc/2001/comm2/gal_comm2_4_screen003.jpg

Here is contestant #1
http://www.fas.gob.sv/aeronaves/pasado/a26/a26spec2.jpg

Here is contestant #2
http://www.303rdbga.com/ac-b26.jpg

Ranger
20th Jul 2002, 08:19
Ok so I was wrong but hey I am a modelmaker so what can I do to my nature ;)
By the way you speaked like Matlock :D

Yakkalot
21st Jul 2002, 03:03
Matlock? :eek:
I may be a lot of things, but a senile old private detective I most certainly am not :D

BTW, what does model making have to do with it?

Ranger
21st Jul 2002, 07:10
Well when someones say that this plane is A-26 and modeller says that it is B-26 you have to prove it before modeller believes you;)

1shot1kill
21st Jul 2002, 17:52
Ehm, just believe Yakkalot, he does this stuff for a living, while yours can only be a hobby as you are only 14 years old.

Twitch
21st Jul 2002, 18:04
I have been writing, as stated, for Combatsim.com since 1994 and before that for Challenge Publications' -who do Air Classics- PC Combat Simulations. I travel as a member to the American Aces functions and have interviewed many of them for stories. I own over 400 books on aviation from WW1 to present day along with other combat related books. I was a recon Marine in 1969-70 in Viet Nam.

I write combat aviation and historical articles on other combat topics for Combatsim.com. I have over 100 articles published. Largest feat to date has been book-length series on Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe detailing planes, rockets and other experimental weaponry developed in WW 2.

If these are not credible credentials, please tell me.

Yes the A-26 was re-designated B-26 after the war. Many were converted to private use and they were used in the infamous Bay of Pigs. As an attack aircraft it was not always used in roles that the B-26 Marauder was, ie. level bombing since submodels mounted heavy .50 cal armament in the nose for ground attack duties.

The P-47, P-51, et all, were re-designated F-47, F-51 too. Today P-51s compete in air racing. No one refers to them as F-51s even though they were so designated in the postwar era.

The 1944 time era would dictate the A-26 designation. Yep "Emily" is right, of course.

Mack the Knife
21st Jul 2002, 19:06
well, i'm glad we now know the size of everyone's cahonies but i'd rather be a modeler :D
http://www.videocom.it/Immagini/modeler.jpg

Yakkalot
22nd Jul 2002, 06:48
No it does not please me... :D

Tim "twitch" tittle (or little or something like that?)

heck, i know who you are :)
A long time Csim reader here, until they went pay of course, then I joined the migration to SimHQ

BTW mack baby, it's not the size of the cahoonies that counts, but the surf board that rides between... ;)

Ranger
22nd Jul 2002, 08:07
Originally posted by 1shot1kill
Ehm, just believe Yakkalot, he does this stuff for a living, while yours can only be a hobby as you are only 14 years old.
What do you mean only 14 :mad:

Yakkalot
22nd Jul 2002, 10:37
Originally posted by Ranger

What do you mean only 14 :mad:

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Date Registered: 07-03-2002
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Twitch
22nd Jul 2002, 15:05
Hey Yakkalot, yeah I'd be making more money writing if you hadn't quit going to Combatsim.com. Naw, they're doing ok I guess since they went to pay format.

Ranger's confusion over the B-26/A-26 reminds me of one of the first books I ever got on aircraft when I was about 10-12. It was a recognition manual published in WW 2 and had all the planes put into groups like low wing, high wing, mid wing etc. It's the rounded fuselage, wing tips and tail that give the Martin bomber away and the Douglas ship is all squared off.

If you ever still mess with flight sims Combat Flight Sim 3 looks pretty good at this stage, reminiscent of the old Secret Weapons sim.

BTW- I got some new insight on flying the Marauder from a pilot who explained to me the learned technique that ended the crashes of the Widowmaker.

Ranger
22nd Jul 2002, 17:14
Hey I just noticed that I cant see my post count is there some kinda bug?

Mike_B
22nd Jul 2002, 17:33
Originally posted by Ranger
Hey I just noticed that I cant see my post count is there some kinda bug?

No, it's hidden you can still see it in your profile.

Yakkalot
23rd Jul 2002, 07:44
Originally posted by Twitch
If you ever still mess with flight sims Combat Flight Sim 3 looks pretty good at this stage, reminiscent of the old Secret Weapons sim.


I've been looking at it with one eye, at one stage it was looking excellent, but the intro video really put me off, and I still have flashbacks to CFS1 & 2 :)
A real wait and see, but as a long time lover of SWOTL, it does look interesting, very interesting :)

I'll bet the die hards threaten their kids "if you don't eat your vegies i'll start ranting about CFS series"

Twitch
23rd Jul 2002, 15:49
While I hope it is as good as we all wish, we've yet to see a preview copy. Certainly it will look good, no question, and will have 34 flyable planes. What I saw at the E3 show in May showed a fairly comprehensive map- I remember the crappy one in CFS2 too! If what was explained to me about the campaign dynamics comes into the release version it should be good.

Unlike SWOTL and everything after, the Germans can't win the war but they can win their campaigns. That crucial part will all have to seen to be believed. It needs an excellent campaign mode. I think its a September release so out outfit should get a preview copy in August.

Yakkalot
23rd Jul 2002, 16:07
Win the campaign but lose the war? :confused:
Unless staying alive come May '45 is classed as winning, I don't follow. :)

The terrain looks wierd in the screenies, if seems to bethe same draw distance problem that plagues CFS2, where near you were the detailed tiles, but not far in front they went all blurry in a perfect square around the aircraft.

As for the release, you sure it's not october? Usually MS releases their christmas line-up mid october (and releases in in Australia about mid december :rolleyes: )

Oh well, fingers crossed, hopefully M$ won't drop the ball big time...again

This could be great :)

Rapid
23rd Jul 2002, 17:23
MS "dropped the ball bigtime" on CFS2? I must differ with you, Yak. I loved that sim, it had me going for a long time. Ya can't get everything right in a combat flight sim, but that one sure hit a lot of 'em right. I never did play a campaign all the way through, I just didn't have the time to develop the vast array of skills necessary to play competitively at higher settings. Currently I'm working with Rowan's Battle of Britain, that's even more daunting.

Mack the Knife
23rd Jul 2002, 20:07
well, i don't play flight sims but after i left here i went to The Adrenaline Vault and noticed the CFS3 website (http://www.microsoft.com/games/combatfs3/) was posted so i thought i'd let you wannbe pilots know :D

Twitch
24th Jul 2002, 03:09
Yeah Yak, that's how it was explained. I think the way you put it would be right. German side can triumph even in 1945 but I guess logically even if you win your campaign a lot of other A.I. squadrons don't and you lose the war. These freakin companies are so afraid of repercussions if they allow a way for Germans to win it's silly.

Ranger
24th Jul 2002, 06:33
I have played CFS 2 at my friends home and Yak you cant know how it feelt when I saw a Zero what was grushing to ground Shooted by me :D CSF 3 looks cool but its a pitty that isnt gonna work on my computer:(

Yakkalot
24th Jul 2002, 07:32
Originally posted by Rapid
MS "dropped the ball bigtime" on CFS2? I must differ with you, Yak. I loved that sim, it had me going for a long time. Ya can't get everything right in a combat flight sim, but that one sure hit a lot of 'em right. I never did play a campaign all the way through, I just didn't have the time to develop the vast array of skills necessary to play competitively at higher settings. Currently I'm working with Rowan's Battle of Britain, that's even more daunting.

Okay, lets go through the game shall we?

1. Non-existent Ai, friendly AI or enemy. You would be lucky if they didn't crash into eachother, yet alone shoot down the bad guys.

2. Absolutely screwed physics engine, it works great when all that it is intended to model are civvie liners and GA a/c, but when you ry modelling something where it was important to have reasonably accurate (ie roughly within comparison to their real world counterparts) it crashed and burned.

3. Did I mention the AI?

4. Multiplayer, oh wait a minute, there's only dogfight...whoops, looks like that was a screw up. I guess you could always have a game on the zone against a UFO in a mustang skin though...

5. The graphics. Sure the plane's look lovely from about two metres away, and the terrain is nice from about angels 30, go any lower and it is a pixelated green mess.

6. Screwed bigtime damage models. One 7.62mm round in the nose and you lose 90% of your roll rate...WTF?

7. Part of 6, the rediculously large hit bubble, don't even think of flying near enemy planes or you're toast , one big *** fireball.

8. Piss poor AI, what, I said that one already? silly me... ;)

9. The most dangerous aircraft in the game are the bombers, they have radar directed defensive guns that can hit you from half way across the planet. Oh yeah, and M$ forgot to put in the little insignificant AI script that enables them to actually bomb targets so all you have are some planes which flyto the target and either a) mill around in a big mess over the waypoint or turn home on their merry way.

Also the fact that the bombers can out run all the fighers, hell trying to land the things is hard because they have such a high approach speed, those things don't have any drag modelled for them.

I can fly a mission in CFS2, just myself vs eight enemy fighters, 100% "realism" (according to M$ ) and down all of them on a penny no problems.

Want more? And those were only the major problems, don't get me started on all the other problems in CFS2

As for "you can't get everything right in a flight sim", true, but there was not one thing right in CFS2. Sure it was stable, but it was a bug ridden piece of crap that can only be described as early beta, and that at best!

How about we play it the other way around, you tell me five reasons that CFS2 is good?
I'll bet you couldn't...


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...so i thought i'd let you wannbe pilots know :D

*AHEM* I am a pilot... ;)




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Twitch, it's a shame, most publishers won't even put swastikas on skins (even in countries where there's no problems)
But there's still the a-holes who argue against flying luftwaffe because of the nazi connection... :rolleyes:

Twitch
24th Jul 2002, 15:34
One thing about MS sims is the fact that they are easy to mod. I messed with CFS 2for awhile but lost interest as there just weren't enough planes to fly. There was no Air Corp campaign! Remember Aces Over The Pacific and Aces Over Europe? Lotsa planes to fly and modders got into it with neat stuff. The Pacific version allowed you to start at the beginning of the war with P-39s and P-40s and go right through the add-on "1946" to the P-80 plus you could fly for Navy and Marines. European Air War was great. Campaigns weren't super better as such but A.I. was and graphics had evolved greatly.

The guy involved in CFS3 is Tucker Hatfield who did the Aces title when he was at Dynamix. When I talked to him at E3 this time as before he is truly a flight sim enthusiast beyond a developer. If they leave him alone CFS3 should be nice. On the demo at E3 this year I saw no terrain flaws but it's hard to tell until one can wring out a preview disc.

I hated the flight models of CFS2. I had to fiddle like hell to get it to "feel" right for each plane and edited the files. The business of all the control damage sucked. There were not that many cases of damaged controls in WW2. Unless the cables were severed you had control. The overdone modeling of damage was similiar to if a chunk of metal was always restricting the aileron so you could only roll at a dead slow rate.

Of course we must consider that a sim must appeal to non-enthusiasts as well as hardcore. The amount of control adjustment was beyond reproach on settings but just for me, I never felt comfortable till I modded it. After about 3 months I was done with it. In fact Crimsom Skies was much more fun overall. On the other hand I flew EAW for years. That's what I want in a sim.

Commandos is such a cool thing cause I dusted it off, re-installed it and can still have fun. It's never going to look old. The RTS stuff out there is neat like that as they are graphically good and are not eclipsed in a year. I been playing more RTS than anything lately.

Rapid
24th Jul 2002, 19:09
Well, Yak, can't argue with you except on one point; I've seen many of the same criticisms of CFS2 elsewhere. But most of them just didn't apply for me. For one thing I'm not a real pilot, so what do I know about realistic flight models? They seemed realistic enough to me, but I can accept they're still way off the real thing. The unrealistic damage thing didn't apply either, because I was so inept i had to fly with "invulnerable pilot" on, otherwise I'd never be able to stay intact beyond a mission or two. To me the enemy AI seemed pretty good, but again I don't have a lot to compare to; it gave me plenty of white knuckles, anyway. Your comment about radar-accurate bomber gunners apparently applies only to the Bettys, and there was pretty quickly a mod made available for them. And multiplayer, well, I never tried it. But there's a whole community of CFS2 multiplayers that seem to be having a blast with it still, and I'm envious!

But as to the scenery, well I have to disagree with you; far from the "pixilated mess" you described, I get fantastic scenery, even down to a few hundred feet. I thought it was pretty cool fly low over the jungles and mountains, just to look around. And I'm only using a lowly Voodoo 3.

So, with the caveat that I'm by no means worldly-wise in the combat sim arena, let me see if I can name 5 good things about CFS2
1. Terrific scenery
2. Great aircraft graphics
3. The action sure had me on the edge of my chair
4. Great sound effects (especially compared to CFS1, the only other combat sim I'd played up 'til then)
5. Good campaign

So, I accept that CFS2 may not be the cat's meow for hard-core WWII combat simmers. But surely it's far from the worst!

By the way, I'd be curious to hear from you and others (as long as @am lets us continue way off-topic here, that is) what you think of Battle of Britain and IL2 Sturmovik.

Cheers!
Rapid

Rapid
24th Jul 2002, 19:46
By the way, check out the sunset action photo at
http://groups.msn.com/OfficialCombatFlightSimulatorSite/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=24949&LastModified=4675375734692918961

Bad scenery, that is not!!

Twitch
25th Jul 2002, 02:02
Rapid, you make a good point. Sims and even Commandos is played the way individuals like to by their own personal preference.

Mack the Knife
25th Jul 2002, 02:30
me, i can barely get the d-amn car out of the garage much less fly a plane (that and the fact i'm seriously acrophobic) so suffice it to say i don't play these flight sims. but, the point i'd like to make is that you ALWAYS see this kind of discussion regarding any game alleging to have taken place during WWII and i want to know why. i mean, if the bullet out of German Mauser 98K goes thru a small tree and kills a guy behind it, some gamer will yell and scream that the muzzle velocity for that rifle over that distance would not allow the round to penetrate a tree that size. i mean, they scream details like if the simulation were not actually like you were right there fighting on Bataan, then it's c-rap. and you're seeing such a discussion right here. i understand it's a partly fanaticism but do these games claim to be that realistic or do they just claim to be sims and go have fun with it?

Yakkalot
25th Jul 2002, 06:33
Originally posted by Mack the Knife
i understand it's a partly fanaticism but do these games claim to be that realistic or do they just claim to be sims and go have fun with it?

Right under the title, "As real as it gets" :D


I was so inept i had to fly with "invulnerable pilot" on, otherwise I'd never be able to stay intact beyond a mission or two

Thats becausethe damage models are so screwed over.


But there's a whole community of CFS2 multiplayers that seem to be having a blast with it still, and I'm envious!


umm, the Zone is often reffered to as the cheat zone. If you like flying against a spitfire capable of doing 1000km/h in a climb and armed with twelve 30mm cannons with the rate of fire of a .303, go for it.

The cheats wrecked that game online, not that there was much to wreck from the get go anyway...


But as to the scenery, well I have to disagree with you; far from the "pixilated mess" you described, I get fantastic scenery, even down to a few hundred feet. I thought it was pretty cool fly low over the jungles and mountains, just to look around. And I'm only using a lowly Voodoo 3.


Well you're one of the few then, even a lot of CFS die-hards acknoweledge that point... ;)


So, with the caveat that I'm by no means worldly-wise in the combat sim arena, let me see if I can name 5 good things about CFS2
1. Terrific scenery
2. Great aircraft graphics
3. The action sure had me on the edge of my chair
4. Great sound effects (especially compared to CFS1, the only other combat sim I'd played up 'til then)
5. Good campaign


1. Pass the bong along this way mate :)
2. No arguments from here :)
3. Can't really argue for or against that point, but there wasn't much action to be had.
4. lol, this was one of the weakest areas, the lawnmower powered aircaft :D
another point thats not just me but many people, incl. the CFS die hards.
5. And you say you're playing BoB now?


As for Battle of Britain and il-2, I love them both. BoB has problems with it's buggyness, but It has a lot I like, and a strong, but small user community with access to the source code - the BDG have worked miracles with it.
il-2 is superb, king of the hill and v_e_r_y well supported. The forums are just people whining and whinging. Initially there was a problem with the russian planes being way too good, they overheated much slower, bled energy less (if at all) and could do things they shouldn't have by the laws of physics, but thats all been fixed, and it is superb.

I would strongly reccomend buying this one. Make sure you download il-2 gen as well. :)

As for CFS2's flight models, well, the problem was the physics engine as a whole was fundameltally flawed when it came to modelling something like fighters. There were the "micro-stalls" which were rediculous, but there were no stalls or spins 9that I noticed)
After a while I just ditched it and went bak to EAW & WWII Fighters. Crimson skies is also worth a look at, but it requires a mean system to run it unfortunately. Great "fun"

If MS tried releasing a product and intended working on it, well it would be alright, but they just release a beta and give the community the tools to fix them and then everybody considers them great...
One problem with trying to get
the mods is that they're scattered all over the place, and very hard to find and keep track of.


But surely it's far from the worst!


Actually, there aren't much worse. Probably Luftaffe commander and Jane's Attack Squadron, but every other WWII Sim avaliable is better.

Jane's WWII Fighters, il-2, Battle of Britain, European Air War shall I continue? :D

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Twitch, It was a shame Tucker had to be associated with CFS2, but because he's on CFS3 from the start, he's the main reson i'm looking forward to it, anyone who's made the sims he has deserves respect.


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mack, yeah, you'll always see this dicussion, just go to the simHQ il-2 forums to hear the whining about how flight models are 1km/h off and the roll rate is 1.2 seconds in real life where as in the game it is 1.4 sec. I don't give a rats arse about that crap, but CFS2 was fundamentally flawed on *every* level.

One problem with modelling something that is real, is that you can never get it *just* right on a PC. And there'll always be people who'll want their favourite plane to handle a certain way. and if it's not the best, they'll moan about it till the cows come home. One thing is people read too much into anecdotal evidence and not hard data. A perfect example of this is the Bf109G in every sim up until il-2, it is a freight train in the sky, and the FW190 the greatest thing since sliced bread.

oh well...

Yakkalot
25th Jul 2002, 06:40
wow that was a long post :D

1shot1kill
25th Jul 2002, 12:09
Now you are starting to look like Iakovos......... :p

Rapid
25th Jul 2002, 15:57
Originally posted by Yakkalot
wow that was a long post :D

No worries, it's fun to discuss this stuff!

Twitch
31st Jul 2002, 15:14
I dunno, we'll just have to wait and see what CFS3 is. At least at Combatsim if we don't like it or it has some negative features we'll say so. UbiSoft (Destroyer Command & Silent Hunter 2) has taken me and the publisher to task for writing articles about "what we want." You know the average game/sim fan and what they expect or would like for the $$ spent. Geez, you'da thought I'd suggested child slavery or something.

I mean don't you think the danged water should look different around Norway than it does around Bermuda, as it does in the real world? And the concept that folks would spend more to get more features was met with the fact that game companies as a whole are scared of pricing too high for Walmart- no kidding Walmart.

At E3 I told Ignacio Perez Dolset of PYRO Studios thanks for not trying to cram C3 onto one CD and compromise. As it is, 3 discs and the complexity and richness it creates, benefits the consumer.

We gotta remember, totally "real" doesn't exist in a simulation or game. Certain things need to "play" right to work. When I hear hardcore sim freaks say, "the Bf 109 doesn't stall realistically," is as full of sheite as the Christmas goose- as if this dope ever flew one. This is where the modders get involved- to tweak stuff that only a handfull are interested in anyhow.

At least there is a Commandos 3 coming and we can look forward to that.

Yakkalot
6th Aug 2002, 10:10
Ugh! SH2!
As a card carrying member of the "WPL in Exile" I can trtify as to what a botched release SH2/DC was. At least the major problems...like getting the game to at least run stable look like getting fixed, for free... Go ubisoft :rolleyes:

Rapid
7th Aug 2002, 18:26
Yak what is WPL? I was eagerly awaiting SH2 and DC, but gave up on them after reading the horrible reviews. The original Silent Hunter sure was (still is!) a goodie.

Yakkalot
9th Aug 2002, 06:24
WPL = Wolf Pack League

It was set up for SH2/DC interplay.

Go to www.sh2fleet.com for more info, though I think now there is some nonsense pay thing, $2 for a year or something for newbies. My advice, just go there for the chat rooms and forums, don't worry about signing up, nobody will notice ;)

The league really fragmented after SH2 was a complete flop quality wise, and the MP with Destroyer command was buggy as all hell. There is something gping on where a select few have the code and are re-writing the MP engine and it sounds promising...