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View Full Version : XP for kills - AGAIN? What were they thinking?



Mdk9000
18th Jun 2016, 22:18
I guess there are already dozens of posts about this topic and I just couldn't find them.

You see, as an avid fan of the original Deus Ex I am wondering why Human Revolution and now Mankind Divided break with the orginal gameplay concepts.

In Deus Ex (1), kills did not yield experience points. You received experience only for solving quests, finding secret areas, for "getting things done". This allowed the player to totally ignore enemies and sneak by, only missing out on the items the enemies may have carried.

HR and MD are violating this brilliant core concept by adding experience for kills. Enemies are now part of an RPG-like grind where you have to kill / "stun" every enemy to get the maximum amount of XP. To make matters worse, lethal takedowns give less experience than non-lethal ones. This is so wrong because it takes away the min-maxing player's freedom to choose any play style. Clearly, doing non-lethal takedowns yields a higher reward on paper.

I wish experience for kills would be completely removed from the game. Just add the experience points to the quest and progression rewards. Instead, it would be much more interesting if the choice of lethal vs non-lethal did affect the behavior of enemies (i.e. many lethal takedowns would make enemies more aggressive while a stealthy approach would induce great fear).

Note that I am talking just about the gameplay here; I know that NPCs react differently depending on which way you chose and that's awesome.

What are your thoughts on this? Have there been any official statements regarding this blatant breakup with the original?

xaduha3
18th Jun 2016, 22:30
They don't care about the original, they have their own vision of the game, they will be expanding on what HR had, not rolling stuff back.

xrs134
19th Jun 2016, 17:02
They better should care. Nothing's better than DX1. XP for kills sucked hard in HR and will even more in MD I'm afraid.

Would be so easy to copy the xp earnings idea from DX1 like MDK9000 explained. They could modify the rest as they want, HR was pretty good gameplay, but again, the xp system sucked.

They finally came back to offer different ways to go and to complete a level, but you can't cause you need to kill everybody first silently to get the best xp rate out of it.

Personally I can't finish a level if there is still xp/awards to get. With other words I am forced to kill all enemies before I continue the level, why can't I REALLY choose the way I want to play? In DX1 I can.

Greets.

georgedonahue1978
21st Jun 2016, 13:41
I still managed to go through at least some missions without killing people. I hope that they will make boss fights with a non violent option, because that really broke gameflow in HR. But other than that, freedom of choosing your gaming style is important. Some people are more combat-oriented, and it is fine.

Shralla
21st Jun 2016, 16:41
They better should care. Nothing's better than DX1.

Not according to all the HR fans, most of whom never even played the original. The sad truth is that the current direction of the franchise has relatively little in common with the goals that were set for the design of the original game. HR confirmed it, and MD is continuing it.

Bane678
24th Jun 2016, 06:46
Not according to all the HR fans, most of whom never even played the original.

I am not sure if they could not live with the much better way of getting XP: For getting things done.

The XP System in DX: HR was broke.

My opinion: CHANGE IT! Back to DX1! MDK for King!

StealthCarol
28th Jun 2016, 11:43
Also I think the non lethal and lethal option is only for tutorial and i think the rest of the game will give you freedom to do what you want for the mission. And even in dubai when you choose non lethal it does not mean you can't choose lethal you still can decided how you want to play it when the game starts. :)

I have watched lethal play through and it takes too long and the helicopters escapes in the end because your not using tactical strategies to get the mission done. On stealth play through it was the quickest so they could the job done and finished secondary options and stop the helicopter from getting away as well as keeping the informant alive. :)

So if you just went in there full guns or even tried to take everyone out in stealth you might fail the mission because your taking too long.


Players can choose the extent to which they use violence or stealth to defeat enemies. Either way, there are always plenty of options for progression, and lots of clever gadgets and augmentations at the player's disposal.

Combat and movement are tied together so that players can swiftly glide between cover, taking down opponents. Progress generally relies upon planning and forethought, rather than run-and-gun, with nicely designed HUDs offering up all the necessary information. For stealth players, AIs are generally twitchy, challenging and well placed to observe one another.





“A lot of people told us that they had the feeling that you had to play the game in stealth,” said Roy at E3. “And so we said this time that we really want you to play it like you want, and you're going to be able to do that. We did this to make it what people want.”

That doesn’t mean less emphasis on stealth - simply more viable options for both lethal and non-lethal fighting outside the vents.

“We are still putting it all in,” said Roy. “We’re just making sure that no one says that we lied and that you cannot see everything without stealth.”

“In this game it’s not just you, it’s also a lot about the enemies,” said Roy. “The more you play, the harder your enemy will be and move around a lot like you.”


And this is about powering through the missions and why its not a good idea


DeMarle also touched on the idea of players powering through the main story campaign, and revealed that while it can be done, it might not be the preferred course for those wanting to really explore what makes Deus Ex tick.

“It was more along the lines of that. For instance with side quests, we have a bunch of them in the game and it’s the conscious decision to say, ‘okay, players can end this quest in five minutes if they don’t pursue the right questions and if they pursue certain questions then they suddenly open up new paths and they open up a new character.’” DeMarle explained, “It’s an interesting challenge for us as designers and creative people because you’re like, ‘this is so cool I want you to see this!’ But players might never see it.”

DeMarle was expansive on this notion of missing something if the player decides to power through, explaining that while the first step is to figure out the core experience that every player will have, by designing the critical path. Once that is ironed out, then the fun stuff for the narrative team really takes place.

Mdk9000
3rd Jul 2016, 11:59
Also I think the non lethal and lethal option is only for tutorial and i think the rest of the game will give you freedom to do what you want for the mission. And even in dubai when you choose non lethal it does not mean you can't choose lethal you still can decided how you want to play it when the game starts. :)

I have watched lethal play through and it takes too long and the helicopters escapes in the end because your not using tactical strategies to get the mission done. On stealth play through it was the quickest so they could the job done and finished secondary options and stop the helicopter from getting away as well as keeping the informant alive. :)

So if you just went in there full guns or even tried to take everyone out in stealth you might fail the mission because your taking too long.


I am totally fine with that. Actually I think this is where the lethal / non-lethal system really shines: It makes a difference in the world, how things unfold, how characters react to you.

But it is totally wrong to award different amounts of XP for it. Again, you are punished for taking a lethal approach in the Dubai mission because you get less XP, although it might be the "right" approach in order to achieve a certain mission outcome.

Hell, in the MD demo there is even a difficulty called "give me Deus Ex". This is clearly referencing the original's hardest difficulty. (I played all titles on the highest)

Couldn't they at least fix the XP system in this mode?

FrankieSatt
8th Jul 2016, 17:37
I guess there are already dozens of posts about this topic and I just couldn't find them.

You see, as an avid fan of the original Deus Ex I am wondering why Human Revolution and now Mankind Divided break with the orginal gameplay concepts.

In Deus Ex (1), kills did not yield experience points. You received experience only for solving quests, finding secret areas, for "getting things done". This allowed the player to totally ignore enemies and sneak by, only missing out on the items the enemies may have carried.

HR and MD are violating this brilliant core concept by adding experience for kills. Enemies are now part of an RPG-like grind where you have to kill / "stun" every enemy to get the maximum amount of XP. To make matters worse, lethal takedowns give less experience than non-lethal ones. This is so wrong because it takes away the min-maxing player's freedom to choose any play style. Clearly, doing non-lethal takedowns yields a higher reward on paper.

I wish experience for kills would be completely removed from the game. Just add the experience points to the quest and progression rewards. Instead, it would be much more interesting if the choice of lethal vs non-lethal did affect the behavior of enemies (i.e. many lethal takedowns would make enemies more aggressive while a stealthy approach would induce great fear).

Note that I am talking just about the gameplay here; I know that NPCs react differently depending on which way you chose and that's awesome.

What are your thoughts on this? Have there been any official statements regarding this blatant breakup with the original?

In Human Revolution you also got points for silent take downs, for knocking people out and for avoiding people all together. You can still play however you want as well as get as much XP as you would if you shoot everybody. Not sure what the problem is, I don't see this as something that goes against the original Deus Ex.

Shralla
9th Jul 2016, 22:44
In Human Revolution you also got points for silent take downs, for knocking people out and for avoiding people all together. You can still play however you want as well as get as much XP as you would if you shoot everybody. Not sure what the problem is, I don't see this as something that goes against the original Deus Ex.

XP farming was a thing in Human Revolution. You could go through all the secret vents backwards if you wanted to just to score the XP. You were inherently encouraged to takedown literally everybody in the game because it rewarded you with absurd amounts of XP. No part of the original Deus Ex rewarded you for taking anybody down in any way other than the convenience of having them out of the way. Giving XP for kills and takedowns makes it a violence simulator, and breaks the game for people trying to actually be stealthy.

Bane678
10th Jul 2016, 17:29
In Human Revolution you also got points for silent take downs, for knocking people out and for avoiding people all together. You can still play however you want as well as get as much XP as you would if you shoot everybody. Not sure what the problem is, I don't see this as something that goes against the original Deus Ex.


I don't get how you could write this after reading MDKs post. You really didn't understand a word. Try to read again m8, I can't explain it better... or maybe i can with another quote:


XP farming was a thing in Human Revolution. You could go through all the secret vents backwards if you wanted to just to score the XP. You were inherently encouraged to takedown literally everybody in the game because it rewarded you with absurd amounts of XP. No part of the original Deus Ex rewarded you for taking anybody down in any way other than the convenience of having them out of the way. Giving XP for kills and takedowns makes it a violence simulator, and breaks the game for people trying to actually be stealthy.

You got the point Shralla, so true. XP farming without any sense .. first, stealth through ...then go back and knock everybody out for XP. Waste of time.
We need the DX1 XP System or DX:MK will have no chance to be as good as the orginial.

Maiden_Ty_One
29th Nov 2016, 16:53
I guess there are already dozens of posts about this topic and I just couldn't find them.

You see, as an avid fan of the original Deus Ex I am wondering why Human Revolution and now Mankind Divided break with the orginal gameplay concepts.

In Deus Ex (1), kills did not yield experience points. You received experience only for solving quests, finding secret areas, for "getting things done". This allowed the player to totally ignore enemies and sneak by, only missing out on the items the enemies may have carried.

HR and MD are violating this brilliant core concept by adding experience for kills. Enemies are now part of an RPG-like grind where you have to kill / "stun" every enemy to get the maximum amount of XP. To make matters worse, lethal takedowns give less experience than non-lethal ones. This is so wrong because it takes away the min-maxing player's freedom to choose any play style. Clearly, doing non-lethal takedowns yields a higher reward on paper.

I wish experience for kills would be completely removed from the game. Just add the experience points to the quest and progression rewards. Instead, it would be much more interesting if the choice of lethal vs non-lethal did affect the behavior of enemies (i.e. many lethal takedowns would make enemies more aggressive while a stealthy approach would induce great fear).

Note that I am talking just about the gameplay here; I know that NPCs react differently depending on which way you chose and that's awesome.

What are your thoughts on this? Have there been any official statements regarding this blatant breakup with the original?


Maybe because it's 2016 and video games have evolved in the last 16 years, and devs stand nothing to gain from making a new game with ridiculously out-dated and old fashioned levelling up mechanics for the handful of stubborn, rigid players who cannot bear to see anything new and just want the same old stuff churned out again and again repeatedly?

There is a difference between "broken" and "you didn't like it".

Lolssi
30th Nov 2016, 11:18
Maybe because it's 2016 and video games have evolved in the last 16 years, and devs stand nothing to gain from making a new game with ridiculously out-dated and old fashioned levelling up mechanics for the handful of stubborn, rigid players who cannot bear to see anything new and just want the same old stuff churned out again and again repeatedly?

There is a difference between "broken" and "you didn't like it".
:rolleyes:
There really is no reason to make kills give you XP, that if anything is outdated. Then again it doesn't matter since these sequels give you way more praxis than you'll ever need.

Shralla
12th Dec 2016, 19:46
There really is no reason to make kills give you XP, that if anything is outdated.

This. Every RPG since forever has given you XP for kills, and that concept really is outdated at this point.