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Ygdrasel
18th Apr 2016, 22:20
(Because hell if I know how to contact anybody relevant there.)

You know what game was well-received by fans and critics, highly profitable and managed to tell its own story in a pre-existing world without bastardising continuity but also staying distant from it? Shadow of Mordor.

The difference between that and Dead Sun? Shadow of Mordor doesn't pretend to be a Lord of the Rings game (full title is simply "Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor", and it's got bugger all to do with Frodo) but Dead Sun pretended to be a Legacy of Kain game - while being too afraid to actually BE that, so they just said "Oh, it's a distant future so Kain's big quest is done, frees us from having to research continuity!"

Serious suggestion. Eidos/CD once planned to branch the series off into Soul Reaver (Raziel) and Blood Omen (Kain) so why not do something similar? Branch off original stories as "Nosgoth:" and leave the Kain-specific tales as "Legacy of Kain:"


Don't want to meddle with the convoluted continuity of Kain's particular quest? Want a story about some sterility epidemic and a human-vampire-spectral-hybrid in Nosgoth? Okay. Have at it. But don't call it Legacy of Kain - because it's not.

It would satisfy the fans who thought Kain being dead (after having killed the MAIN ANTAGONIST OFFSCREEN) in a "Legacy of KAIN" game was asinine (read: every fan), it would allow non-Kain-centric tales to be told in the same world, and it would build up interest to a much wider audience on account of the 'Nosgoth' branch wouldn't have the intricate continuity lockout that the LoK branch has which would essentially create a profitable 'new' IP.

Zarxiel93
18th Apr 2016, 23:20
I don't agree.
We don't know absolutly nothing about DS, so how you can say "he pretend to be LoK but he doesn't" if you don't know what will be there? From the images showed there is a model of Raziel in working, so hypotetically Raziel would appear in that game and SE already said DS would be a spin-off to explain what is Elder God, the idea was amazing for me.

Ygdrasel
20th Apr 2016, 23:30
I don't agree.
We don't know absolutly nothing about DS, so how you can say "he pretend to be LoK but he doesn't" if you don't know what will be there? From the images showed there is a model of Raziel in working, so hypotetically Raziel would appear in that game and SE already said DS would be a spin-off to explain what is Elder God, the idea was amazing for me.

Kain's entire quest was wrapped up, and Kain killed, in the offscreen time before DS. So yeah, I can say for sure that it wasn't an actual Legacy of Kain game.

And Raziel died for good in Defiance. That's why they went to such lame lengths to make the new guy seem so Raziel-esque. From his blue skin to his soul-sucking and shifter powers, to his wings and even the manner of his death is practically an exact reflection of Raziel's.

A spin-off explaining the Elder God's background could certainly be amazing. Even more amazing would be said spin-off developed by a studio that didn't actively disdain the series and allowed by the publisher to reach completion.

Sluagh
21st Apr 2016, 15:37
(Because hell if I know how to contact anybody relevant there.)

You know what game was well-received by fans and critics, highly profitable and managed to tell its own story in a pre-existing world without bastardising continuity but also staying distant from it? Shadow of Mordor.

The difference between that and Dead Sun? Shadow of Mordor doesn't pretend to be a Lord of the Rings game (full title is simply "Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor", and it's got bugger all to do with Frodo) but Dead Sun pretended to be a Legacy of Kain game - while being too afraid to actually BE that, so they just said "Oh, it's a distant future so Kain's big quest is done, frees us from having to research continuity!"

Serious suggestion. Eidos/CD once planned to branch the series off into Soul Reaver (Raziel) and Blood Omen (Kain) so why not do something similar? Branch off original stories as "Nosgoth:" and leave the Kain-specific tales as "Legacy of Kain:"


Don't want to meddle with the convoluted continuity of Kain's particular quest? Want a story about some sterility epidemic and a human-vampire-spectral-hybrid in Nosgoth? Okay. Have at it. But don't call it Legacy of Kain - because it's not.

It would satisfy the fans who thought Kain being dead (after having killed the MAIN ANTAGONIST OFFSCREEN) in a "Legacy of KAIN" game was asinine (read: every fan), it would allow non-Kain-centric tales to be told in the same world, and it would build up interest to a much wider audience on account of the 'Nosgoth' branch wouldn't have the intricate continuity lockout that the LoK branch has which would essentially create a profitable 'new' IP.


As ideas go Ygdrasel I don't think it's that bad, although I do take Zarx's point. TBH, I would like to see another game, as much as I would like this continued. The whole Kain dead/not dead thing doesn't interest me that much as a debate. Anyone who wanted to research continuity could do if they wanted, stick to some of the suggestions/plans from Daniel Cabuco etc. and pretty much re-invent the wheel. The gameplay for Dead Sun looked awesome. Lore wise I wasn't sure. As an idea it was ok, but the delivery looked a bit iffy from the limited footage available.

Heretic_13
21st Apr 2016, 17:16
Ok, i am backing Ygdrasel here- from what i could read in forums where guys collect info and Twitter messages from people responsible for story and so on, it looked more like a pretty wierd spin off rather than continuation. So make it a spin off and most of us will be happy. I also would like to finally see decent movement mechanbics in (sort of)"Legacy of Kain" game and have fun using different skills that aren`t used in other games. Be my guest. I have nothing against throwing "*****", "****" and "mother****" by characters. It`s like in Star Wars- no one is cursing... Grow up, bit of meat flying in the air won`t kill ya

But i`d like to plant another suggestion. As a aletrnative for what Ygdrasel wrote.

Dear(>sarcasm<) Square Enix: Finish developing Nosgoth in studio. Do your own launcher. Kicking Steam in the groin is wonderfull- i don`t like monopoly. Hunt down bugs. Think of game modes that will make Nosgoth fly above its competition- make it unique. Put it on a discs. Then in to packages. And sell it- shops, internet, DCLs even if you are greedy(and we know you are), instead of this wierd, stupid "market probing" with open beta- it is obvious to me and everyone else, that when you have something for free, many people will not actualy pay, and that is because of many things- not because they are misers. There are in country like mine where 50 euros is pretty big money(about 220-230 złotych), or they don`t work and don`t have money for little pleasures. Or they are still students and don`t work, and(look above)
Why the **** you need to destroy 3 years of your people work??? Even more if we count Dead Sun in...
Do i need to teach you how to treat your customers? A pole has to show japanese men how to make money??? World`s at its end...

By treating your game in this manner you show us where you exactly shove our opinion up and that we are nothing but milking cows to you. Fine. Do more Tomb Riders. Create another line of "Call of Duty" or "Assassin Creed"-like games. But me, and many other peoples won`t be with you anymore, and wonder what happen, when another generation of players will finally see you for what you really are. Then it will be crying and teeth grinding. "Why nobody wants to buy from us?". Guess. You have 3 chances
Good ****ing luck

Vampmaster
21st Apr 2016, 17:28
It was the London branch of SE that were in charge of this game. The Japanese branch probably haven't even heard of the game other than the profit and loss on invoices and stuff. They're likely too busy with FFVII/FFXV anyway. It would be impossible for SE London to do any of the programming, because they don't have any programmers there other than a few for mobile games. I know, because I asked if they had and vacancies.

Zarxiel93
21st Apr 2016, 19:15
Kain's entire quest was wrapped up, and Kain killed, in the offscreen time before DS. So yeah, I can say for sure that it wasn't an actual Legacy of Kain game.

And Raziel died for good in Defiance. That's why they went to such lame lengths to make the new guy seem so Raziel-esque. From his blue skin to his soul-sucking and shifter powers, to his wings and even the manner of his death is practically an exact reflection of Raziel's.

A spin-off explaining the Elder God's background could certainly be amazing. Even more amazing would be said spin-off developed by a studio that didn't actively disdain the series and allowed by the publisher to reach completion.

How you can say Kain is dead? There is NOTHING that suggest this, and Kain's death just don't make sense. Probably Dead Sun take place in a time in future of SR1 (this is confirmed) BEFORE Kain came back to the present days. So he just don't came back.
For Raziel... well, Raziel is the most popular character of the franchise, make him return (how look like they wanted to do in both TDP and DS) is a great idea for me, and I see a LOT of fans that agree and hope to see Raziel's return in a Def's sequel, even because his fans will really enjoy this.
You can say "but his soul is inside the reaver they cannot put him out", the Ottmar's sorcerer can put a soul outside an object and more expert vampires don't? This sound really strange to me, so put Raziel out of the sword is a spell quite simple for vampires.

RainaAudron
21st Apr 2016, 23:41
How you can say Kain is dead? There is NOTHING that suggest this
According to Dead Sun, (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1139285) he killed himself.

About Raziel, no, he can´t come back. He sacrificed himself so he can be the Soul Reaver sword and help Kain defeat the Elder, so undoing it makes no sense and an impossible task.

Ygdrasel
26th Apr 2016, 05:02
How you can say Kain is dead? There is NOTHING that suggest this, and Kain's death just don't make sense. Probably Dead Sun take place in a time in future of SR1 (this is confirmed) BEFORE Kain came back to the present days. So he just don't came back.
For Raziel... well, Raziel is the most popular character of the franchise, make him return (how look like they wanted to do in both TDP and DS) is a great idea for me, and I see a LOT of fans that agree and hope to see Raziel's return in a Def's sequel, even because his fans will really enjoy this.
You can say "but his soul is inside the reaver they cannot put him out", the Ottmar's sorcerer can put a soul outside an object and more expert vampires don't? This sound really strange to me, so put Raziel out of the sword is a spell quite simple for vampires.

Kain is confirmed dead in Dead Sun's story. And Raziel being popular is irrelevant. Nobody who cares about the story wants to see him again because the story says he's gone. Unless they devise some sensible and feasible way to bring him back, which they never did. And personally, I can name a number of LoK characters I find more interesting than Raziel. Vorador, Mortanius, Melchiah, Hash'Ak'Gik, Moebius...

Ottmar's sorcerers placed a stolen soul back in its proper vessel. The Reaver is already Raziel's proper vessel. He has to be in the sword to form the Soul Reaver, which Kain has to wield against the Elder God. Bringing him back would weaken Kain.

Another suggestion for SE: Give us the Rahabim concept art for Nosgoth. Shouldn't need to go dumpster-diving through the internet to find vague sketches of possible versions. =\

13oundary
29th Apr 2016, 11:09
Erm... think you're forgetting the definition of the word "Legacy". Anything involving Kain's vampires (EDIT: or really any of the repercussions of his rise and reign) in the Nosgoth universe involves kain's legacy, as they are his legacy, or "what he left behind".

The only reason to change the name from Legacy of Kain is if the main story didn't revolve around the fact that these vampires exist, if they were just in the background or something like that.

That being said, Shadow of Mordor COULD have been called a "Lord of the Rings" game because the story involves the 'Lord of the Rings' (Sauron) and even the ring maker himself... the irony being many "Lord of the Rings" games SHOULD have been simply middle earth games... but no-one actually gives a **** about naming conventions, so who actually cares.

Ygdrasel
29th Apr 2016, 22:24
who actually cares.


You cared just enough to be pedantic and contrarian with no actual point to make, so...

Heretic_13
3rd May 2016, 14:29
I`m very sorry, but: do this thread is about what suppose to be in "Dead Sun" and all the story twists, or maybe how to save whatever Square Enix did for past 5 years?

I don`t even understeand purpose of some posts here... Ygdrasel DIDN`T try to save us from Dead Sun plot-holes or point how this game is NOT "Legacy of Kain". Only how to make it fly, and maybe do something about the fact that Nosgoth goes in to junkyard in less than a month. Plant suggestions, try to help, not push around "what i didn`t like"

I swear to God. It`s like asking for cheats in some game forum. Every other post is "don`t use cheats. They ruin the fun". Do the thread title spells: "Philosophical aspects of Dead Sun, what is wrong with it, and what would you change"?

Rather wondering how/what/who/when, i`m more concerned about this: will anyone take up challenge and try to do anything inside this universe, or will it just die like this?

lucinvampire
4th May 2016, 12:10
Serious suggestion. Eidos/CD once planned to branch the series off into Soul Reaver (Raziel) and Blood Omen (Kain) so why not do something similar? Branch off original stories as "Nosgoth:" and leave the Kain-specific tales as "Legacy of Kain:"


I’ve personally already made my opinions clear so don’t want to go into details but such thoughts have been as a single player short chapters (stories) either about the characters using the lore from the Nosgoth or a co-op game following stories such as the siege on Sommerdamm, Freeport etc. They have the kit all they have to do is be willing to do something with it, that’s what so frustrating.

As for DS if it was no way linked to LoK it probably would have been and interesting game, they just tried to do so much wrong trying to make it fit. If it was a complete spin off like you mentioned not touching the “legacy” just set in the universe then that may and I say MAY work but just generally as a vampire game it could have been better.

Imo they don’t want to touch the continuation, over the years I think that’s been made clear. I think the only way we’d get something full is with a *shudders* reboot. I think the more possible thing is if they ever chose to continue anything in the universe is by making a spin off.

Heretic_13
4th May 2016, 14:06
At the very least they could do reboot. They could give us something to look forvard to. Instead we get this "sorry, shop closed. **** off"- attitude

For the love of God- give this thing to moders if you don`t want it anymore. To people like Raina. "Heroes III" is alive and kicking to this very day, even though 3DO is no longer existing- there are lot of ways to creat your own server and play with your friends. "Gothic" game over 15 years old is modified to this very day both by modding grups and individuals

Don`t just behave like 5 year old with his/hers sand castle, when mother calls them home

Ygdrasel
8th May 2016, 07:38
Imo they don’t want to touch the continuation, over the years I think that’s been made clear. I think the only way we’d get something full is with a *shudders* reboot. I think the more possible thing is if they ever chose to continue anything in the universe is by making a spin off.

A reboot ruins the whole point. I'd say do updated (better graphics, AI, maybe some more complex systems [ala SR's slight morality-reaction thing with the human NPCs], etcetera) remakes to build up the brand again then follow with a proper continuation in time. And that's exactly the idea: Do spin-offs but commit to it. Dead Sun tried to basically be a spinoff but failed to commit so it just got itself tangled into a mess trying to deny what it was.

@Heretic: Fan projects continue to exist, including my own. But as far as anything official, I doubt anybody at Square Enix has the backbone to try.

ParadoxicalOmen
8th May 2016, 12:53
A reboot ruins the whole point. I'd say do updated (better graphics, AI, maybe some more complex systems [ala SR's slight morality-reaction thing with the human NPCs], etcetera)

I agree...A reboot would be such a shame.
We have such rich story and lore, not to mention that the game still hasn't a conclusive ending...

Rebooting also has bad history...like when they tried it with Thief, which ruined Garrett (but this is a whole other rant).



Fan projects continue to exist, including my own.

You intrigued me here, do you have anything conclusive yet? I'd love to see it.
So far i know of only 3 (big/ambitious) fan projects:
- Blood Omnicide
- Soul Revenant
- LoK: Dark Renaissance

Ygdrasel
12th May 2016, 19:32
I agree...A reboot would be such a shame.
We have such rich story and lore, not to mention that the game still hasn't a conclusive ending...

Rebooting also has bad history...like when they tried it with Thief, which ruined Garrett (but this is a whole other rant).



You intrigued me here, do you have anything conclusive yet? I'd love to see it.
So far i know of only 3 (big/ambitious) fan projects:
- Blood Omnicide
- Soul Revenant
- LoK: Dark Prophecy


Dark Prophecy was the canned official title from '04. You're thinking of Dark Renaissance - formerly Prodigal Sons, a title which makes no sense.

And mostly I'm just working out the story side of things. I'd be fine to discuss such things, just not here.
The immovable object in my path is largely art. I am unskilled with art, people to be exact. I've considered a shift more toward the original Blood Omen style to alleviate this to some degree but it turns out I'm kinda **** at pixel people too.

ParadoxicalOmen
13th May 2016, 01:38
Dark Prophecy was the canned official title from '04. You're thinking of Dark Renaissance - formerly Prodigal Sons, a title which makes no sense.

Yes, indeed...my bad. I corrected it, thanks.
Although they progress very slowly, I'm always keeping an eye on these projects and I get excited with each step they make.



And mostly I'm just working out the story side of things. I'd be fine to discuss such things, just not here.
The immovable object in my path is largely art. I am unskilled with art, people to be exact. I've considered a shift more toward the original Blood Omen style to alleviate this to some degree but it turns out I'm kinda **** at pixel people too.

I really like these fan projects in general, I'd love to see anything you have once you're ready to show it.

Heretic_13
13th May 2016, 16:00
I train with sword(did Haidong Gumdo and playing around with HEMA) and bare hands(Krav Maga and- tyring out techniques- Pugilism). Anyone interested in making animations to your project? Motion Capture.... XD I`m brutal enough to be hybrid between Turelim and Dumahim.

But seriously, how do even people like me, who are not overly gifted when it comes to working with computers, much less creating something akin to game 3 D models, can help people like Raina, Ygdrasel and so on? I`m asking you straight up- if we want something done, we need to do it ourselves, it seems

Ygdrasel
13th May 2016, 23:16
Yes, indeed...my bad. I corrected it, thanks.
Although they progress very slowly, I'm always keeping an eye on these projects and I get excited with each step they make.



I really like these fan projects in general, I'd love to see anything you have once you're ready to show it.

I think I'll need a lot more practice to make people decent enough. I may just toss in some placeholders for important NPCs and Kain in the meantime. I'm also building Valeholm in Minecraft just because. XD

And any time my excitement wanes, I just look at this:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ow8hKnk6-JE/Tb1AhYRST8I/AAAAAAAAAKk/Q6EHBUiqhEs/s1600/PROLOGUE+legacy+of+kain+pro+sons.jpg

ParadoxicalOmen
16th May 2016, 00:09
And any time my excitement wanes, I just look at this:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ow8hKnk6-JE/Tb1AhYRST8I/AAAAAAAAAKk/Q6EHBUiqhEs/s1600/PROLOGUE+legacy+of+kain+pro+sons.jpg

This works for me too:
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