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View Full Version : Azimuth the Planer & A few extra theories... (REPOST)



Umah Bloodomen
5th Jul 2002, 04:37
This was started on the "old" forum after I began theorizing again. I requested a picture of Lady Azimuth (The Matriarch of Avernus). This is what I came up with. I hope you enjoy!

(Special thanks to Ardeth, Blinc & Warp for debating this one with me). :)

Originally Posted by Umah Bloodomen



I believe Azimuth is the Seer.
Mainly because the Seer has the demons protecting her much as Azimuth did at Avernus. The accents are similar and whose to say she didn't evolve into a hylden amongst her travels to the other dimensions, and/or Morty didn't put her into a Hylden body?

I have also been speculating that if Moebius, Morty and Ariel were in cahoots....Azmiuth (being the planer) could help them in their conquests/manipulations... I will need to research my facts a bit more before I come up with a more indepth theory.


Originally Posted by Warpsavant


Interesting, but Azimuth had to die, so that Kain could bring her eye to the Pillar and thus it was restored. How is she alive then in BO2?
I was thinking Azimuth is a puppet of the Hylden.

Circle has factions (I think)

Nup and Ariel

Morty does his own thing.

Moebius and Malek

Bane and Dejoule, who sometimes work with Anacrothe

Azimuth, too, does her own thang. But she loves demons. So she has to have something to do with Hylden/Demons.


Originally Posted by Umah Bloodomen


Whose to say Moebius didn't travel back to secure her "livelihood"? Remember that Moebius did die and his hourglass had been returned yet we still see him hanging around now don't we? He was implied in BO2, not actually interacted with.

My b/f and I's other speculation (and believe me I plan on developing this into a better copy instead of these "thrown together ideas"...lol) Moebius created Time Streaming Chambers...could Azimuth have also created similar chambers only dimensional-streaming ones? Granted, I know we have no evidence (yet) to support this, but it seems rather plausable.

Another point we have is that the Eternal Prison seems to rest in another dimension in BO2 which more than suggests that dimensional travel (other than the through the Hylden gate) is possible and definately exists.

I personally can't think of a better player to associate with all of these events/examples than Lady Azimuth...can you?

(BTW - I am not ruling out her association with the Hylden either, I simply believe she is a worthy piece to this already complicated puzzle).


Originally Posted by Ardeth Silvereni

***Possible BO1/BO2 Spoilers***
To me, Azimuth always seemed an underrated player in the schemes against Nosgoth. It's still difficult to establish a direct connection between the Hylden and the Demons, except that they are both working against the vampires for the domination/destruction of Nosgoth. Azimuth seems like the missing link.

Azimuth was strongly connected to the Demons through her summoning skills, and her home was Avernus Cathedral, which contained Hash'ak'gik's altar.
Her ability to travel through planes means she could have easily interacted with the banished Hylden. Perhaps it could have been she who brought their races together to work together.

Even if the Demons and the Hylden inhabited the same 'Demon Realm' and she didn't introduce them, I believe it was Azimuth's magic that allowed Hash'ak'gik to enter Nosgoth and bring down the Pillars. This assisted the Hylden too.

I think she was crucial to their plots. However, it is questionable how much she knew of the possible consequences of her actions, even though she was supposedly sane at the time.

If Azimuth knew exactly what the Hylden were, and actively supported them, I like the idea that she could be the Seer (albeit in another form from her human one). If she is, does that mean that she intends to manipulate Kain, now she's gained his trust? I can't imagine Azimuth, in any form, working to restore Nosgoth to the vampires.

Although I think it could work, I get the feeling that CD has finished with Azimuth as a character. I think they will leave her as another pawn who didn't fully understand what they were doing. If she was going to feature more later on, I would have expected some hint or mention of her in SR2 or BO2.

The Eternal Prison would have been perfect to re-introduce her, but only Moebius is acknowledged. Personally, I would love to see Azimuth (or any others of the Circle) in later games, I'm just doubtful it will happen.
quote:
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Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen:
Moebius created Time Streaming Chambers...could Azimuth have also created similar chambers only dimensional-streaming ones? Granted, I know we have no evidence (yet) to support this, but it seems rather plausable.

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She could have, but I wonder if the blood-filled runes she used would have been sufficient. She might not have needed anything as large as Moebius's chambers.


Originally Posted by Warpsavant

Nice one Ardeth.
Raziel uses the Planar Portals to go to the spectral "dimension"

I put my money on the Pillar of Dimension giving Raziel the ability to shift to the demon realm.

I think Sr3 will have Circle Members. Ariel, Morty, Malek, Moebius, maybe the rest make an appearance. Im just guessing.


Originally Posted by Blincoln


Addition: I dunno... she seems to like to wear clothes at least a LITTLE more than the Seer =).

Originally Posted by Umah Bloodomen



I am sure she would've made the attempt to conceal herself had she returned to Nosgoth. What better way to slap us all in the face than to hide and then reveal oneself to make our jaws drop? LOL

I totally agree with you Ardeth here on Azimuth being the "missing link". We already know that Moebius has the power to span time and that Lady Azimuth can span dimension. No offense, but what better way to enhance one's already unique power and further it by being introduced to "more" options of using this power. If my theory of Azimuth proves true, Moebius would no longer be limited to time travel, but dimensional travel with the help of Lady Azimuth. As far as the conncection between the Hylden and the Demons, don't you find it kind of odd that the demons in BO1 possessed similar powers to those in SR2 (meaning the green ones spit a gassy substance, the bigger fire-type demons were present etc.). In SR2 the Demons clearly state that they are "waiting" for Raziel. Why would demons (not related to the Hylden in some sense) be waiting for the soul reaver (aka the key to the pillars which keep them out of Nosgoth)?

I don't think Hash'ak'gik had been directly linked to the Hylden since the beginning. I think that when the Hylden were banished to whatever demon realm they were, Hash'ak'gik just happened to be there and seized the prime opportunity to return to Nosgoth. (Hence why he has the cult that worships him) We already know that Moebius worshipped the Dark Entity, it would only stand to reason that other members of the circle and other people of Nosgoth would fall into the allure of the cult. Something that struck me funny was when Raziel asked Squiddy: "If Moebius knew he was worshipping a giant squid, do you think his faith would falter?".
We have discussed the Squiddy/Hash'ak'gik relation time and time again. I honestly don't think Moebius knows of Squiddy, but if Squiddy is Hash, then the more intimidating/serious form of the Dark Entity would be more likely believable as far as a diety.

Moebius has the power to stream time and return to when the Hylden originally fell. Azmiuth on the other hand would have the power to build on that and perhaps travel back to the demon dimension (seeing that I believe she knows it exists) and perhaps seal it. If this is the case, then perhaps with Moebius' help, they would return to the point of original Hylden-banishment and close it off, thus altering the events yet again. If we get into the complicated issue at hand, if this also occured, Azimuth could have scoped ahead and found another different dimension to "relocate" the Hylden to following the BO2 invasion. (If she is the Seer mind you). If they are/were relocated elsewhere, and the Pillars are designed specifically to bind them to that original dimension, wouldn't that render the pillars useless? No offense, but the Sarafan Lord said he could return whenever at the end of BO2, as if nothing (Pillars included) stood in his way.

As I said earlier, I think her support of the Hylden came as an accident. Her Dark God just happened to be there and was most likely the one to strike the deal with the Hylden in order to pave his way into Nosgoth. Naturally if one's god supports something, the followers tend to do the same. I don't believe she would intend on restoring Nosgoth to the vampires, but would restore it to the rule of Hash'ak'gik.

Moebius is more "directly" acknowledged, but Moebius has lacked the means to travel interdimensionally. I feel Azimuth's power of planing was more "hinted" at, seeing that the location of the prision was in another realm.

The runes could've been enough, but perhaps the Time-Streaming Chambers in fact are geared for dimensional travel as well, just no one (with the exception of Moebius) knew of that and/or how to access that.



Originally Posted by Ardeth Silvereni


Azimuth would have been a powerful ally for Moebius if they worked together, there is no doubt in my mind about that. As they appear to serve the same god, it makes sense that they would try to compliment each other's skills. It could have been the most powerful union the Circle could produce.

But Azimuth is single-mindedly destructive in BO1. She doesn't seem to have aspirations of power, only to 'ravage Nosgoth'. This might be entirely due to Nupraptor's madness, but even in madness, Anarcrothe, Dejoule and Bane formed their alliance. This gives me the feeling that Azimuth wasn't one for group work, even to exploit her gift further.

This is purely my opinion, however. It might have been that she did ally with Moebius, but he abandoned her after Nupraptor's mental attack. Her mind seems far more damaged than his was. Also, for her god, I guess she would have worked with anyone, even if she wasn't naturally inclined to do so. More on this in a minute.

I didn't see this as necessarily being the Hylden's influence at work. While I think the Hylden and the Demons are working for a common goal, I see them as two seperate races generally working independently of each other. The actions of one race often assists the other. The primary target of both was to destroy the Pillars.

I think the Pillars were designed to keep the Hylden out of Nosgoth, but they also had the effect of cutting Nosgoth off from all other dimensions as well. I think that Hash'ak'gik had once been able to enter Nosgoth at will, thus enabling him to establish his cult of worshippers. Once the Pillars were erected, the only one who could breach that barrier was the Dimension Guardian. Azimuth let Hash through and later unleashed the other minor demons into Avernus. Hash then used the loyal Moebius to mislead Kain and ensure the Pillars' destruction.

The Hylden then had their BO2 opportunity to re-enter Nosgoth.

I think that the Demons that confronted Raziel resembled the Avernus Demons because they were from the same place. It makes sense. With 100 years of collapse, the Pillars ceased to keep Nosgoth sealed against Hash's dimension, but I think they still were partially effective against the Hylden (as this was what they designed for). I think the Demons needed no alliance with the Hylden to make them show up. If they had an inkling that Raziel intended to restore the Pillars (and permanently shut them out again), I think that would be motivation enough. I think the Hylden would have shown up to stop him too, except there were fewer of them in Nosgoth at the time, perhaps only the Sarafan Lord, who seems to have broken through exactly when Kain refused of the sacrifice.
"They were, Kain, but several centuries ago, one of the Hylden was able to return to our world. He then used his magic to draw other Hylden through, but had not yet the power to begin a full invasion...
...When you chose to destroy the Pillar of Balance, you caused a rift throughout the world, sufficient to breach through the dimensions."

This brings me back to the possible Azimuith/Moebius alliance. The destruction of the Pillars does not account for the Demons chasing Raziel 500 years before Kain's birth. Moebius could have sent them back from the future, but he would have had to travel forwards beyond his death to collect them. Or, he could acquired them and sent them back during his lifetime by working with Azimuth. He would have had to wait until Azimuth became a Guardian and worshipper of Hash to do this.

It is possible that Azimuth and Moebius could be behind a huge plot we haven't yet seen. However, I think that too much more meddling with the past will cause the storyline to collapse. It would have to be handled very carefully.
I think the Sarafan Lord was sure the Hylden could return because his race has forever to do it.
"Our banishment in the demon dimension also ensures our immortality. One day, we shall return."
Eventually the Pillars would become too weakened to keep them out. I think that is why he doesn't seem to see them as a problem.

I have to admit, in trying to see who's doing what and why, I have no idea where the Elder God fits in at all. Perhaps he's some Demon slowly emerging from a sealed dimention into Nosgoth, but I honestly have no firm opinion as yet. I agree that Moebius is probably ignorant of the Elder God's form.

The Eternal Prison and Moebius's Time Streaming chambers could have had input from Azimuth. The Eternal Prison might have been partly in another dimension, but I felt it was part of Nosgoth, just removed from the timestream and existing outside it. Kain reached it by walking down a tunnel, so I imagined it had to be strongly anchored to his reality. I suppose her magic could have provided that anchor, but the prison seemed far older than she was.
The Time Streaming chambers and the BO1 devices have only ever been seen to transport individuals through time, not space. However, the Chronoplast itself caused Raziel to travel some distance south to the Sarafan Stronghold. This is perhaps an indication that the Chronoplast had other modifications as well, maybe including dimensional travel.

Originally Posted by Umah Bloodomen

Even with Moebius being the cunning manipulator that we all know and love him to be (LoL) I wonder that if given the chance, (providing Ariel had not been murdered and Nupraptor had stayed sane) he could eventually persuade the rest of the circle to follow his lead and display the benefits of worshipping the Dark Entity? Being of similar power, I believe Azmiuth would naturally have conformed to this, but perhaps maintained a lesser, more inconspicuous presence than the more outgoing Time Streamer. After all, birds of a feather, flock together.

Single-mindedly does not necessarily mean non-aligned. Moebius is the more outgoing manipulator, hence we all focus upon him being up to no good. Azmiuth could quite easily play the part of an innocent and definately get away with it. I believe this is why she chose to be a lone destructive entity. Another good example of a similar alliance would be that of Star Wars.

STAR WARS E1, E2, E3 SPOILER INFO AHEAD

Take the Sith for example. As it was stated in the Phantom Menace, there are always 2, a master and the apprentice. We also know that in the Phantom Menace, Darth Maul was the apprentice and Darth Sidious is the master. Maul obviously did most of the dirty work, but Sidious still remained evil with the same evil intentions. Could perhaps Moebius simply be the apprentice to Lady Azmiuth? I believe that Azimuth is more directly related to the Dark Entity (seeing we have already established she would've dealt more with him during her dimensional travels than Moebius). And just as in the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, (where we know Senator Palpatine's true identity) Palpatine goes undetected by the Jedi Council as being the betrayer. I believe Azimuth has been set up to do the same.

The questions that arise from this are:

1. How long had Hash'ak'gik been involved in Nosgoth's history?

Obviously a little while, probably not as long as Janos or whatnot but he had his foot in the door already seeing his cult existed.

If the Pillars had an affect on other dimensions than the Demon Realm, how was it that Hash'ak'gik was able to breach through and possess Mortanius in BO1?

Hash'ak'gik was present but the Hylden were not. If he were also affected by the Pillar "barrier" I am afraid that Ariel wouldn't have been murdered, Nupraptor wouldn't have gone mad and Kain wouldn't be in the prediciment he was placed in. Hash wouldn't have had the chance to possess Morty because he would be barred from Nosgoth and he wasn't.

This again brings me back to the theory that perhaps Hash's dimension is not the same dimension as the Hylden's. I am inclined to believe that if Janos' winged race had inteneded for the Hylden to stay banished (which they obviously did) then nothing from the dimension the Hylden were banished to would be able to re-enter Nosgoth. Not even Hash. This would prevent loopholes being created for any chance of the Hylden returning. Obviously the destruction of the binding force (Pillars) would be the only way to ensure the Hylden return. I agree that this happened when Kain refused the sacrifice also.

Under the circumstance that Hash is from the same dimension that the Hylden were banished to, this obviously states some sort of alliance between them. If Hash were not affected by the Pillars, and can re-enter Nosgoth "at will" then as the Sarafan Lord, I would most definately be attempting some deal making with Hash in order to obtain the revenge of my race, by sending him to find the way for our return. This is plausable, however I am not likely to believe Hash is such an easy pawn. I wonder what (if anything) he were to obtain from aiding the Hylden...


More to ponder as we enter yet another twisted chapter in our LOK-Based soap opera:

"As The Chronoplast Turns(TM)"


Originally Posted by Ardeth Silvereni

Thanks for the comparison the Star Wars. It puts me in familiar territory.
I know what you mean about harsh reactions to some posts. I hope none of mine come across as being too pushy.
I agree that Azimuth was playing the innocent well. The whole 'Matriarch of Avernus' role could be considered as a parallel to Moebius's guise as the Oracle. And then there was the Cathedral itself, which I assume was intended for the worship of another deity altogether.

Azimuth may be closest to the Dark Entity through her gifts, but the idea of her apprenticing Moebius doesn't appeal to me. I think she is underestimated, but I'm unsure (based on what we've seen so far), if Azimuth could have held any influence over him. Perhaps she could if Moebius believed the Dark Entity was speaking through her, but I'm doubtful. I believe it would be more of a partnership, even if she was the quieter one.

I find it easier to accept it happening the other way round. Going on the 'Guardians are chosen from birth' principle, Moebius is older than Azimuth, and he was helping to manipulate Raziel before she was even born. I think Moebius's aim, as a devoted servant to his god, was to restore the Dark Entity's domination of Nosgoth, so everyone would be forced into worshipping it. I can imagine Moebius being that fanatical. He would probably believe blindly it was in the best interests of Nosgoth to do so.
I think that Azimuth was the key to achieving this, so he introduced her to his beliefs. It might have become an even partnership fairly rapidly, as her faith grew.

My last post was a bit confusing. I'm sorry about that.
I was trying to say that the Demons and the Hylden were blocked out by the Pillars, but Azimuth's power enabled her to bring Hash through. I think all Demons were barred from Nosgoth except the ones that Azimuth opened the door for. That is why Hash had to destroy the Pillars - to allow the rest of the Demons through, and allow the Dark Entity's reign to be complete. Azimuth let Hash into Nosgoth, and the chain of Morty's possession, Ariel's murder and Kain's quest followed.

The 'seperate demon dimensions' idea is starting to sound the most sensible to me. I thought the barring of the Demons and Hash'ak'gik was a mere side effect of the Hylden's banishment. That is why I think there are many Demons in SR2 yet few Hylden are supposed to be around at the time.
They were both in their own nice little dimensions, but the lock was tighter on the door between the Hylden's dimension and Nosgoth. It would take more decay of the Pillars for the Hylden's lock to break. Kain's refusal of the sacrifice was an exceptional event.

If Hash once came and went as he pleased, before (or after) the Pillars were erected, is suggests that he can travel across dimensions easily. I don't think of the Hylden as being 'locked in' their dimension, rather, they are 'locked out' of Nosgoth. They might not possess dimension-hopping skills, so they are prisoners, but there is nothing to say that Hash couldn't have paid them a visit. That would allow the 'seperate dimensions' idea to stand, and let an alliance between them sound reasonable at the same time.

Perhaps Hash aided the Hylden with the intention to share Nosgoth, or fight over it once the vampires were out of the way. I'm not sure what else he could achieve.



Well guys and gals, this is it. I know its A LOT of reading but I hope you will find interesting points to either agree with and/or debate. I am looking forward to any additional feedback you can offer. Thanks a lot for taking the time to consider this "rambling" of mine. ;)

chinese-soul-eater
5th Jul 2002, 05:12
That is alot to read

but i got npthing else to do so i read it and its some good idea

i think that mobieus made azimuth ( mind my spelling) think that she was leader and mobieus tricked her like he always does

while she thinks the she is boss
mobieus plays along until he sees right thats when he has no use for her anymore

but remember that the ancients made the prison that sent the hylden to where they are

so they arent in the same dimension as the other demons

that would make hash' able to come in since the banishment was really meant for the hylden only

not really for the lesser demons

so i dont think that hash' was barred out

he only came in when he needed to come in

lordofthepillars
5th Jul 2002, 05:53
I think the hylden created the demons and also that those exposed to glyph energy were mutated into monsters . Kind of like nuclear fallout. :p :p

Jedilvr
5th Jul 2002, 14:46
Isn't it said somewhere that when a guardian dies it is the job of the remaining guardians to find and teach the newly chosen guardian(s) and train them in the ways of guardianhood? If so, after Vorador's massacre of the Circle, wouldn't Moebius be the most logical of the three remaining members to train the newbies, Malek was just worried about protecting them and Mortanius was probably busy Necromancing , in their powers? That means that he could have begun to manipulate them from the start, I'm assuming from birth. Perhaps they all grew to worship the Dark Entity as they grew up, kind of like our parents "forcing" their religion on us. So Moebius knew how to control Azimuth to bring Hash back into our demension all along.
Which brings me to my side theory, again forgive me for straying a bit. What if Moebius foresaw Nupraptors madness and the Moebius we see in the game isn't mad at all but the Moebius from before the madness, having traveled to the future, continuing his plans as the only sane member of the circle. That way he could see clearing what he was doing and continue his manipulations throughout time.

KainSyndrome101
9th Jul 2002, 22:53
I agree with that theory. In the beginning of SR2, Moebius is manipulating Raziel. After the Pillars' corruption, he is still trying to manipulate him. If he was affected by Nupraptor's madness, wouldn't his mind and all of his plans change dramatically? That greatly supports your theory.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2002, 01:10
My question here is, if Moebius did forsee Nupraptors madness, did he actually orchestrate Hash to possess Mortanius to strike down Ariel to cause it (thus giving him the opportunity to influence the new circle members) or did he infact do the deed himself?

chinese-soul-eater
10th Jul 2002, 04:17
oh

well i guess i was well off the topic

i would have to say i dont really know

time will tell :D :cool:

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2002, 04:24
Okay, "Chris" :p

chinese-soul-eater
10th Jul 2002, 04:27
blah blah blah blah

:D :D

chinese-soul-eater
10th Jul 2002, 04:30
blah blah blah blah blah
:D :D


i guess i read a little to much of chris's posts :cool:

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2002, 04:31
Notice when I "Blah blah blah" you seem to come to listen. :p

chinese-soul-eater
10th Jul 2002, 04:36
:p :p :p
true

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2002, 04:41
:p

chinese-soul-eater
10th Jul 2002, 04:50
youve won the battle

but not the war my dear

fate promises new twists until this drama unfolds (completely):D :D :D

L_Master562
10th Jul 2002, 07:59
..every time though???:cool: :cool: :cool:

I wear sunglases like these!!! This board is slow today and almost as bad as the EZboard speed problems as of late. That seriouly is a bad thing. It isn't my connection either.

Umah Bloodomen
27th Jul 2002, 23:17
We're running out of theories I am afraid LMaster. It becomes harder each day to come up with new and exciting topics. Some of us still stick around though. ;) Others will simply return when new games arrive. :p

L_Master562
7th Aug 2002, 07:13
I'm here everyday literally hundreds of times every few minutes to see whats happening. But the point is, we allways come up with new ideas or find new things that were cut or hidden in the game and that entertains us. I'm here for good.

Trying to find the answer leads us to want more and more, and I like that. I want the next games badly. It will explain things, and possibly bring up new questions for us to debate and have fun figuring out if it ties in with Bo3 or previous games. I enjoy now that anything is truely possible.

I'm tired, have had lack of sleep, and don't know what I posted there last time. Looking back, I can't remember what that means that I posted. I just know fate always has many paths it can follow and will do just that. Anything is possible. The best I can figure out about last post was that I was being sarcastic which is hard to due on the net without writing that. I have been staying awake around 24 hours at a time with few hours of sleep. I sure must say, I've been out of it. I think I ment the smilies as meaning sarcasm. At least the speed of the board is good now.

Sarxis
16th Aug 2002, 15:39
Azimuth, yeah!

I think she could still be involved because.. well first of all, planars are just soo kewl!

But also, the nature of her pillar dictates she may have had dealings with the Hylden in the demon realm.

Umah Bloodomen
5th Sep 2002, 21:36
Originally posted by Sarxis
Azimuth, yeah!

I think she could still be involved because.. well first of all, planars are just soo kewl!

But also, the nature of her pillar dictates she may have had dealings with the Hylden in the demon realm.

This is true, but let's say that it isn't that obvious. Azimuth was the only other known Pillar guardian who worshipped Hash'ak'gik (Moebius being the other). Perhaps it could've been by chance (and reward for her loyality to the Dark Entity) that she was able to locate the demon dimension. (I mean where it's exact location was in order to transcend dimensions to reach it). I've stated before that I believe there to be an alliance between the Hylden and Hash'ak'gik because they were banished to his realm "by chance".

Again, we know Moebius had/has dark agendas and was guided by Hash'ak'gik. I believe that it is very possible Azimuth is very similar. I think it is also plausable for Azimuth to return (just as Moebius does) seeing that there should be an incarnation of her existing somewhere (because she can travel to other dimensions and if she and Moebius worked together at a point, during another time in that dimension. This also goes back to why I believe she had a hand in the Eternal Prison. (As most likely, did Hash.)