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Kain's Ancient Blade
4th Jul 2002, 23:26
I've had a problem trying to put some pieces of lok series together. Throughout the series people seem to know about raziel and they keep mentioning his true destiny, janos already knows him when they first meet, there's a statue of him in the fire forge.

The first thing i hear is that in SR3 raz goes back even further in history to the war between the hylden and the winged vampires. Thats why theres a statue of him and thats why Janos knows him. But how could that be if when he first meets janos there was no changed timeline. Raz was destined to be sucked into the reaver.

So my guess is that the original timeline was somehow already screwed with. Perhaps Kain's assination of King William the Just somehow messed with Raziel's original destiny. Or perhaps time was screwed with prior to that event.

What do u all think?






LOK series. MY anti drug

SoulGamer
5th Jul 2002, 00:29
They may be right about him going back. But like Kain said, "Our presence here does not alter history, we meet here cause we are compelled to"

Jeffers
5th Jul 2002, 16:29
Ok, I don't think it is definate that he will go back in history further, although it is a possibility. This is for the simple reason that no information on Soul Reaver 3 has been released.

The other thing you have to realise which might help piece things together, before Raziel meets Janos, there is a parradox where the reavers combine, although I don't think history his changed at this time. There is a parradox created where Kain was DESTINED to kill kain, but doesn't therefore altering the timeline. That means that the original timeline has been altered, therefor we have no idea when Raziel met Janos in the past or not.

Jeffers

SoulGamer
5th Jul 2002, 18:45
Not really. THAT temperal distortion occured during the pillars' coruption and after Janos' death. Time up until then remained the same. It could only change future events. Andthe only distortion around that timethat we know of happened moments after his death.

Kain's Ancient Blade
5th Jul 2002, 21:00
well i just hope everything is explained in SR3. But the wait is killing me.

Jeffers
5th Jul 2002, 21:22
Originally posted by Jeffers
The other thing you have to realise which might help piece things together, before Raziel meets Janos, there is a parradox where the reavers combine, although I don't think history his changed at this time. There is a parradox created where Kain was DESTINED to kill kain, but doesn't therefore altering the timeline. That means that the original timeline has been altered, therefor we have no idea when Raziel met Janos in the past or not.

I did a GCSE in Office Applications, and I still haven't learn't to proof read, I have but can't be bothered.

I meant to say, a parradox is created where Raziel was DESTINED to kill Kain.

Also SoulGamer, Just a phrase that sticks in my mind that Kain said:

"We are like pebbles in a river" or something to that effect, and what Raziel says at the end, "As history strains to move around our actions" or something like that again.

History changes to try and keep the future the same, "Only accepting the smallest change" -Kain. So that is the basis I was working, the other two time periods all occur after the last one.

Jeffers

Iceburg
6th Jul 2002, 09:50
I have a few theories about how they could possibly continue the LOK series, I mean if Raziel Dies then thats it. Kain has become too big a charactor (with the exception of Blood Omen, but that was going back in time).

any way if Raziel gets sucked into the reaver after restoring the Pillars, blab, blab, blab. then I propose a new charactor... A teenager, turned ito a vampire, who values life and is good in nature. stumbles onto the tomb of the Soul Reaver. he then goes on a crusade with the Physical Reaver at his side... and Kain who is long since dead returns as his mentor.

This will take place after the original SR, after Raziel chases Kain through Time. Kain will die in SR3 when he and Raziel return to Nosgoth's future to battle the true distructor of the Pillars in a great war... I don't know.

But the only way I can see Raziel surviving is to turn the Reaver back into a Blood Reaver...

So what do you think? let Raziel surcum to his demise and introduce a new Character... Let him survive it and continue his Quest with the Blood Reaver. Or both... a new Character and the Blood Reaver. the only time that we've used the Blood Reaver is in the end of SR2.

who now what they're planing... I wish they'd give us a few hints.

Jeffers
6th Jul 2002, 11:37
Originally posted by Iceburg
This will take place after the original SR, after Raziel chases Kain through Time. Kain will die in SR3 when he and Raziel return to Nosgoth's future to battle the true distructor of the Pillars in a great war... I don't know.

I remember it being said in Warps answers from Amy that the idea of Soul Reaver 2 was not what can we do in the future to put things right but what can we change in the past to alter the future.

Therefore I think it is unlikly that they will return to nosgoth's future.

Jeffers.

DMK_Azrael
6th Jul 2002, 13:41
I was thinking and reached to this conclusion:

*********POSSIBLE SR2 SPOILER**********

I think maybe Raziel never went to the Vamp/Hylden Wars, since he die always in the chapel and is consumed by the Blood Reaver.
But consider this, the Ancients forged the Reaver, and then erected the Pillars, so far so good, and each one of the nine choosen Ancients received a Gift from the pillar they protect, and there was one that received the Time-Streamer gift, right? And he during or after the Wars, he may see in his own Chronoplast(i don't know if the Time-Streamers used the Chronoplast to see the future because Moebius shows Kain parts of the past and the future with fire in BO1), and sees the upcoming events, Raziel, Kain, Moebius, the Soul Reaver...and the rest of the story, or maybe he only sawed the original or if you prefer the "True" Raz's destiny,because like Kain says "I was ordained to assume the role of Balance Guardian in Nosgoth, while you were destined to be its savior. But the map of my fate was redrawn by Moebius, and so in turn was yours..., this le me think he only saw the unchanged events of the story. And they created a Reaver Guardian, to let Raz have the Reaver and complete his "True" destiny... and im out of ideas to baseon my theory.

So what you think? Tell me if i missed something :)

SirRaziel
6th Jul 2002, 23:53
It is obvious that the first Guardians did ensure that Raziel and Kain's meddling with the time stream would allow them to complete their destinys as the Ancients would see it complete. As Kain said "Free will is an illusion".

darien_specter
11th Jul 2002, 01:22
I think Azrael is on the right track... This is a thought I propounded somewhere else, perhaps in one of my own threads, I don't remember.

It is my belief that when Kain pulls the Reaver from Raziel, the major historical change involves, in part, the Reaver being forged into the Soul Reaver whilst leaving Raziel alive ("... the paradoxical moment when my twinned soul hovered both outside and inside the Reaver blade...") And if this is the case, then I belive this was the true intent of the Reaver smiths, and that this was to happen in Janos' retreat, with Janos pulling hte Reaver from his chest, when Janos offers Raziel the blade ("I was at once horribly repelled by the sword and yet irresistibly compelled to touch it, to take it up.") Immediately thereafter, though, the Sarafan show up. And who commands them? Moebius, who would have foreseen that Raziel would seek Janos out and create the path to him. (Janos: "Yes. I don't know what they're [the Sarafan] plotting... but I fear our time may be bitterly short."). They were waiting for Raziel... So Moebius must have meddled in the original events; but Kain, spared by Raziel, takes Janos' place to fulfill them...

(thanks to darkchronicle for SR2 script!)

Kain's Ancient Blade
14th Jul 2002, 13:29
holy *****, that awesome theory about janos pulling the blade out of raziels chest in the retreat but couldn't do to mobius sending the sarafan. good theory darien. very good theory.




LOK series. My anti-drug.

darien_specter
14th Jul 2002, 17:49
Thanks!

Azrael
14th Jul 2002, 19:16
Originally posted by darien_specter
I think Azrael is on the right track... This is a thought I propounded somewhere else, perhaps in one of my own threads, I don't remember.

It is my belief that when Kain pulls the Reaver from Raziel, the major historical change involves, in part, the Reaver being forged into the Soul Reaver whilst leaving Raziel alive ("... the paradoxical moment when my twinned soul hovered both outside and inside the Reaver blade...") And if this is the case, then I belive this was the true intent of the Reaver smiths, and that this was to happen in Janos' retreat, with Janos pulling hte Reaver from his chest, when Janos offers Raziel the blade ("I was at once horribly repelled by the sword and yet irresistibly compelled to touch it, to take it up.") Immediately thereafter, though, the Sarafan show up. And who commands them? Moebius, who would have foreseen that Raziel would seek Janos out and create the path to him. (Janos: "Yes. I don't know what they're [the Sarafan] plotting... but I fear our time may be bitterly short."). They were waiting for Raziel... So Moebius must have meddled in the original events; but Kain, spared by Raziel, takes Janos' place to fulfill them...

(thanks to darkchronicle for SR2 script!)

Thanks darien, but one thing that still misses(i said this to you yesterday), but then who would kill the Sarafan (Sarafan Raz & company)? Don't forget that Raz being at the Sarafan keep is in the events of BO1, the reason that Malek gets always late to save the circle from Vorador.... but anyway GREAT THEORY MAN http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

darien_specter
14th Jul 2002, 19:43
I know that, but I think I was unclear about my answer to that... I realize full well that this scenario never happened, ie that the Soul Reaver was created in the Retreat. I just think that's what Janos and the ancients intended... but that Moebius found out somehow (perhaps he knew the prophecies?), and manipulated Raziel as well as had the Sarafan ready and waiting to follow him in, thus foiling the designs of the ancients. As Kain says, "We have always met here..." Thus, history was written the way Moebius wanted it: Janos is killed, Raziel dies, and he gets the Soul Reaver anyway. Until Kain arrives to confound Moebius' schemes...

Hope that clears it up somewhat... :D

Azrael
14th Jul 2002, 20:05
Yep its clear to me :) , but one thing that i didn't yet understand, why the Ancients want to turn the Blood Reaver into a Soul Reaver? Do you think that the only way to kill the Elder? (lol, maybe i responded myself) .....

Jeffers
14th Jul 2002, 20:13
Thought you might be interested in this, it is a time line of events I have found.

http://www.eblong.com/zarf/nosgoth/timeline.html
http://www.eblong.com/zarf/nosgoth/timenotes.html
http://www.eblong.com/zarf/nosgoth/pic/timepic.png

:)

Jeffers.

Azrael
14th Jul 2002, 20:24
Yep, that helps to clarify some things.... thanks man... :)

darien_specter
14th Jul 2002, 21:59
This question is one I think I answered elsewhere, too... I wish I knew where, because it would be easier to refer to it... but here goes in brief:

As Janos says (and Raziel completes), the Pillars are the lock, and the Reaver is the key. Now in two different places we see artisitc representations of the Reaver blade (not the wraith blade) being imbued with an element: the mural in the Light forge, of the ancients bringing the sword to the Light altar and of it radiating light; and in the Fire forge, the statue of Raziel holding the Reaver, which is wreathed in flame when he forges the wraith blade. Yet when Raziel reclaims the Reaver, it cannot take in the elements as the art insists it can. (I know, I've tried...)

Then there is the floor of the Pillars shrine; laid out on it are the seven elemental Reaver symbols. (Incidentally, these look to be in some sort of heirarchy to me: Earth and Water subordinate to Dark, and Air and Fire subordinate to Light, and Spirit (or whatever) in the center.) The true purpose of the forges is yet unrevealed; as I said the other time, it's a hell of a lot of trouble to go to to make fancy door locks. So they must have some greater purpose than that (otherwise most of the gameplay in SR2 was firing forges, for the sake of firing other forges - sort of like the quip that the only purpose of a math/english/history major is to create more of themselves. ;)).

So my thought as to why the ancients would need a Soul Reaver is this: The elements must be brought to the Pillars to secure the binding (Janos never really said how the binding was to be secured, only that it needed to be.) From the order of the murals in the Pillars shrine, it is logical to assume that the Reaver predates the raising of the Pillars. And so, with their power waning, the ancients build the forges to distill the elemental powers; and, as the wraith blade (that is, Raziel's soul) is capable of acquiring these distilled powers, but the Reaver is also somehow necessary for the binding, it becomes necessary for the Reaver to have a soul. Thus, it is somehow prepared, and given into Janos' keeping, to guard it until the day Raziel would come to forge the Soul Reaver, release the bound elements, carry them in the Soul Reaver - which, as we have seen, reacts uniquely to him) to the Pillars and... do whatever it is he needs to do there. That, I think, was the plan, anyway; and I've already discussed my thoughts on that.

And that's why I think they need a soul reaver... :D

warpsavant
14th Jul 2002, 22:13
the timeline says the Pillars came first, then the 9 gaurdians then the Reaver.

I have a hard time understanding how they forge the blade with vampiric energy, before the curse. This events are very vague.

Janos pulling the sword from his chest is very interesting, this has been brought up (by Non Existent I think) in the past.

darien_specter
14th Jul 2002, 22:24
To my knowledge I think I originated that idea, some time ago on the old forum. In any case, I did come to it originally... :D (just trying to maintain my academic integrity)

Where's that timeline? (Another PS2 goody, I'll bet...) And then why do the murals seem to depict the Reaver used in combat even before the Pillars? And you're right, that's confusing to me too, how they could give the blade vampiric energy without having been cursed... Perhaps they just used their magic to create the Blood Reaver with that power, and then as a sort of ironic "justice," the defeated Hylden cursed them with the very power that had been their weapon? Hmmm....

Azrael
14th Jul 2002, 22:38
Well the theory is interesting, but i think the reason that you can't imbue the material reaver is that he never got forged in any of the forges, only the wraithblade, and i think the spirit reaver is the combined forces of Raz's soul and the material Reaver(maybe in Soul devoring or Blood devoring state), but its an interesting theory...

warpsavant
14th Jul 2002, 23:28
Yes, the timeline on the SR2 disc in the extras.

Maybe it was you DS, I don't remember. I may have read it on another message board for all I know, like GFAQ or NN. It's funny, if you read enough messages, you will always find different people at different times coming to the same conclusions. :D

darien_specter
15th Jul 2002, 08:36
I guess great minds just think alike... :p

Power reaver
15th Jul 2002, 16:11
The Reason why the Blade cant be forged with elemental energy is cause its the BR not the SR .

About the murals , suppose that the reaver in them is the SR .

Theory :

The Ancients make the Blade and lock it up . Then in SR3 after Raz wakes up he talks to Kain , does some stuff , takes the SR (supposing its been created at the end of SR2) , and goes to To the past , there he fights the Hylden with the SR , after the battle , Raz takes the Blade back to the time when it is given to William ( ie sometime between 500 - 50 yrs before Bo) , he leaves it in the Time chamber , (perhaps he s in a hurry , or the Reaver gets transported due to some mistake) . Then Moebius finds it , gives it to William , William is killed , the SR is healed , it is given to Kain , and you know what happens .

Azrael
15th Jul 2002, 17:06
Well, good theory man but i still think that the BR can't be imbued with any element because he wasn't forged at any of the game forges(the Wraith Blade did)...


Posted by Warp:
the timeline says the Pillars came first, then the 9 gaurdians then the Reaver.

I have a hard time understanding how they forge the blade with vampiric energy, before the curse. This events are very vague.


Well i think you responded your own question Warp, if the Reaver was created after the Pillars creation, the Ancients were already cursed with vampirism....

Stupid Theory:
But i personally think the Reaver was created before the Pillars got erected, and it was the Ancients who create the Vampirism (only to put on the Reaver), well if you see the "beauty of the paradox", the vampires cursed with their own creation...lol


~note: Sorry to repeat what i said in the first lines!

Azuriel
15th Jul 2002, 17:17
Originally posted by Azrael

Stupid Theory:
But i personally think the Reaver was created before the Pillars got erected, and it was the Ancients who create the Vampirism (only to put on the Reaver), well if you see the "beauty of the paradox", the vampires cursed with their own creation...lol



hmm.. doesn`t sound stupid at all

darien_specter
15th Jul 2002, 19:35
Yeah, that's what I said five posts up... ;)

PR: I know that's why Raziel can't put elements in the Reaver. That's my entire point as to why it needed to become the Soul Reaver... because the Blood Reaver could not contain the elements.

Both Reavers are present in the murals. In the first one it has a red aura; this indicates the Blood Reaver. In the last panel it has a golden aura; and that shows the Soul Reaver (and, I think, Raziel wielding it; for more on that, see my thread "Paintings and Prophecy").

Jeffers
15th Jul 2002, 22:10
The timeline I posted above does make a good stab at defining all of the events I think. These are the first few.

-11000? - The Hyldan Wars

-10000? - The Elder Race defeats the Hylden, banishing
them from Nosgoth.
- The Elder Race creates the Pillars. Nine Guardians
serve the Pillars, and one -- Janos Audron -- guards the
Soul Reaver.
- The Hylden, in revenge, afflict the Elders with
vampirism.

- The Elder Race diminishes, and humans come to
dominate Nosgoth. Humans replace vampires as
Guardians.

I think that bit explains the beginnings of Nosgoth quite well.

But what I also find interesting is the fact that this time line also states that when Kain starts to go off and kill the guardians it is the second purge, which is true as vorador did do a purge of the Human Guardians.

What did make me wounder though, was Janos Audrons murder a calculated incident by the ancients as a backup plan incase the time line got altered so that the Guardians would be purged, but vorador didn't kill all of the guardians.

He missed three, which could be presumed as Arial, Mortanious and Mobious, as they all seem to have a lot of knowledge of what happend at that time, and it is not really the type of knowledge which would be passed down I don't think, it is more an actual being there that I think is the knowledge they possess. Plus the fact that during that time period, Arial is not dead, is she!

I know it is not confirmed, but it could be interpretated that they were the surviving guardians.

And for those who want to view the timeline I used to make these assumptions then here is the link:

http://www.eblong.com/zarf/nosgoth/timeline.html

:)

Jeffers.

darien_specter
15th Jul 2002, 23:18
Malek is the third survivor, not Ariel. This is from the mouth of Chris himself:


Yes, Vorador slaughtered six of the Guardians in his ambush (just as he told Kain in BO:LoK). Some people were confused by the cinematic in BO:LoK, which only shows Vorador killing four of the Guardians -- but the cinematic should be interpreted as an edited "montage" of his attack. He did in fact kill six of the Guardians.

In BO:LoK, it does not say that Malek became a Guardian after he was fused to his armor. This is a common misconception, but in fact the text of BO:LoK never explicitly states when Malek became a Guardian. The dialogue only says that he is the defender of the Nine, last of the Sarafan sorcerer-priests, and the Guardian of Conflict.

So the three Guardians that survived Vorador's attack are Moebius, Mortanius and Malek.

I'd also like to know more in-depth the logic behind this parallel Reaver thing, with William and Kain... seems to me that it just makes everything more complicated than it really is... To add to the discussion, I present this alternative: Since Moebius gives the Reaver to William, it is reasonable to assume that he simply collected it after it consumed Raziel (this assumes the original timeline, wherein Raziel is utterly consumed. What the ramifications of Raziel and Kain's choice throughout history, we cannot know at this time.) Moebius (or more likely, his lackeys) collect the pieces and William's corpse, and enshrine them in the Sarafan cathedral. Twenty years later, the Reaver draws on Raziel to heal itself; he leaves it bisecting William's sarcophagus. Kain tells us right before that conflict that "Moebius propelled William and me together - but ensured first that we were both armed with the Soul Reaver." Logically, then, Moebius came back for the Reaver (whether in the tomb or Kain's body, this is not changed) and puts it in Avernus, sometime before Kain gets there. This is where he finds it, and takes it back with him - a simpler solution, I should think...

That timeline is killer, stuff, though. Is that your work?

Azrael
16th Jul 2002, 01:07
Posted by darien_specter:
Yeah, that's what I said five posts up... ;)

Sorry, sometimes i don't understand exactly the posts... :p


Posted by darien_specter:
PR: I know that's why Raziel can't put elements in the Reaver. That's my entire point as to why it needed to become the Soul Reaver... because the Blood Reaver could not contain the elements.

Hmmmm, yeah its a possibility that BR couldn't contain the elements, yeah, im starting to think on that!


Posted by darien_specter:
Both Reavers are present in the murals. In the first one it has a red aura; this indicates the Blood Reaver. In the last panel it has a golden aura; and that shows the Soul Reaver (and, I think, Raziel wielding it; for more on that, see my thread "Paintings and Prophecy").

I don't know(remember) if anyone said this before, but its a possibilty that Raz go back in time with the material (all imbued SR) to fight the Hylden along the Ancients (and i want to mention that the BR was already forged at that time)...hmm thinking on this i remember reading something like this before...hmmmm...