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Optik45
4th Jul 2002, 16:20
Does anyone else agree that Thief needs some better sword combat. I know that the blackjack is mightier than the sword put it would be very enjoyable to be able to weild a sword in an artistic manner, as you would see in Die by the Sword (not sure if anyone has played that but your mouse movements control your swings) or maybe in a fashion like Jedi Outcast:Jedi Knight II. Hopefully in T3 we will see some of that. It would aslo be cool to have some dismemberment action going on. Let me hear your thoughts.

stikboy
4th Jul 2002, 16:42
Hmmm.....

Not sure I would like to see that. What would be the reason to sneak around if Garrett was a master swordsman? Just blaze in taking off peoples heads. Make the need for sneaking a little less, IMHO

And, If Garrett spent enough time to learn how to swordfight properly, then what would happen to his Thieving abilities? You can't be a master of everything :)

Optik45
4th Jul 2002, 16:59
Well Garretts sword abilities would still be matched by guards. All it would really be for is an added special feature you could say, Eyecandy if you will.

ChowYunFat
4th Jul 2002, 21:33
It would always be good to have everything in Thief, but given a choice, I'd rather the designers put effort into enhancing the sneaky gameplay than into artistic swordplay. Usually, if I draw my sword during a mission for anything other than slashing a banner, I consider myself to have failed the mission.

Optik45
4th Jul 2002, 21:37
True. I dont know it was just a thought. Sometimes ill go back and play a mission in hard mode and just practice my archery skills on poor ole guards, sometimes i think it would be fun to take their head off.

MGSnake87
4th Jul 2002, 21:44
Nerd alert! Nerd alert!

Its a video game!

a very awsome one at that...

Yes it'd be awsome to use swords all cool and stuff...

oh, but he's not a master swordsman, and bla bla bla. i repeat

its just a video GAME

Nerd Alert! Nerd Alert!

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

BrokenArts
4th Jul 2002, 22:04
Hey MGSnake87, we all love the game, to the point of full immersion at times. Please don't call us nerds http://www.westwoodi.net/~smilies/cwm/3dlil/eek13.gif because we like to play the game, and get into it. That doesn't make us nerds, it makes us better players. :p

You don't know this bunch very well do you. Stick around, you'll see how much we love this game.

RicknMel
5th Jul 2002, 01:09
Originally posted by MGSnake87
Nerd alert! Nerd alert!

Dang...how'd you see me coming! ;) :p

Quiet Sound
5th Jul 2002, 03:28
I prefer it the way it is, since Garrett is a thief rather than a warrior.

Optik45
5th Jul 2002, 05:55
I totally agree that Garrett is a Thief and not an offense. But he also knows how to shoot a bow pretty damn good.And if im not mistaken he was trained how to weild a sword in the keepers training. Its better to know how than not too. Anyways the sword combat thats in the game is already made for duels, you can get pretty good with blocking and looking for opens in a guards defense. In short, the sword is not a good weapon of choice but its there for if you wanna have fun (or you are in a pinch) So why not make it more fun. And I guarantee you that Ion will change the current sword combat to something new. You'll see.

Lytha
5th Jul 2002, 11:51
Was he trained in melee combat by the Keepers?

Not when I am playing him. He is so bad at sword combat when I am in control that the sparring ends with damages received instead of dealt (the other way round)

I just can't figure out how to wield that sword... :p


Btw, a thief with a sword is a silly view. He needs a pretty sharp little dagger for the tapestry business, or for dealing with new customers (compare the cutscene of Framed), not that heavy long sword.

The game is not called <i>"Garrett - the Holy Paladin"</i>, but it's <b>"THIEF"</b>.


No improved sword combat. That would potentially even ruin the game ("now that we have better sword combat, lets eliminate the stealth factor and lets have Garrett kill everything with his shiney new sword").

SlyFoxx
5th Jul 2002, 13:47
I used to be more of the sneeky assassin type but the more I play the fewer guards etc. I kill or even K/O. I'm not really up to ghost caliber though I have ghosted a few of the smaller FM's. But then again I haven't been playing for a year yet, only about 9 months. I try to play only on expert anymore unless I just want to run about and 'cause havock and behave in a non-thief-like manner. I just finished LOTP the other day by running around and stirring up all of Angelwatch getting ever guard to start searching by ransacking Karras's office ASAP so the alarm would be going off as I then needed to activate all the record players. Even with all that I never felt I needed better sword skills than I already have. So more sword ability for T3 would be of little intrest to me.

yubetcha
5th Jul 2002, 14:06
Originally posted by Lytha
Was he trained in melee combat by the Keepers?


Btw, a thief with a sword is a silly view. He needs a pretty sharp little dagger for the tapestry business, or for dealing with new customers (compare the cutscene of Framed), not that heavy long sword.

The game is not called <i>"Garrett - the Holy Paladin"</i>, but it's <b>"THIEF"</b>.


No improved sword combat. That would potentially even ruin the game ("now that we have better sword combat, lets eliminate the stealth factor and lets have Garrett kill everything with his shiney new sword").

I agree. I am a thief, and the game should be mainly that. And a dagger would fit better under a cloak. That sword must stick out and it should logically get in the way every so often.
Not only that, but I'm not into beheading. IMO a game doesn't have much if it has to have something like that. This game is much better than that. It has more in its favor than that. The emphasis is and should be on thieving. To kill is bad enough, even if it IS a game. Garret isn't a bloodthirsty murderer. He kills only when he is cornered, and a backstab or a swordfight win serves that purpose. :)

THEthief
5th Jul 2002, 14:21
I think it depends on the player - my little 8 year old brother is a FANTASTIC burrick killer - he can kill all the burricks he finds, without losing ONE life.
Me, on the other hand...well, I'm a HORRID burrick hunter, but I'm a pretty good human hunter. :D
Remember, guys, we don't want Garrett to win without trying - and, if Garrett was a SUPER good killer, no one would play the game as a sneaker. :)
Just my $0.02...:)

THEthief
5th Jul 2002, 14:22
Originally posted by Lytha

No improved sword combat. That would potentially even ruin the game ("now that we have better sword combat, lets eliminate the stealth factor and lets have Garrett kill everything with his shiney new sword").

Exactly. :)

Lake
5th Jul 2002, 14:38
I agree with Lytha. A sword is too unwieldy a weapon for a thief that depends on stealth and would rather have ISA focus on other aspects of gameplay.

THEthief
5th Jul 2002, 14:43
I like the sword!! IT MUST STAY! :D:D ;)

RicknMel
5th Jul 2002, 14:57
I want Garrett to have an M16 automatic rifle in T3....and a stun gun and rocket launchers and a hovercraft! ;) <img src="http://home.woh.rr.com/rnmssite/tongue.gif">


Ouch!

What was that?

*Rick runs for cover*
<img src="http://home.woh.rr.com/rnmssite/tongue.gif">

BrokenArts
5th Jul 2002, 15:09
http://www.westwoodi.net/~smilies/otn/violent/PANZER.gif

yubetcha
5th Jul 2002, 16:59
Originally posted by THEthief
I think it depends on the player - my little 8 year old brother is a FANTASTIC burrick killer - he can kill all the burricks he finds, without losing ONE life.
Me, on the other hand...well, I'm a HORRID burrick hunter, but I'm a pretty good human hunter. :D


Of course, it depends on the player. That's obvious. Maybe you guys are bloodthirsty, but I'm not. :D
Besides, remember, we're talking about Garret. And I think it's already been established that he's not a murderer. How many countless FMs and probably OMs as well mentioned that fact? A backstab or swordfight win of any kind would probably suffice for Garret, who doesn't relish killing, and isn't great with a sword anyway.

Optik45
5th Jul 2002, 20:07
ugh. Yeah Im not a bloodthirsty Thief. Sh@t I havent played A mission Under expert in years but Sometimes its fun to get a little psycho,nd your right its stupid to even have a sword being a thief, a dagger would be more practical. But I would still like to be able to decapitate a haunt. I guess thats just a Marines nature. :)

Peter_Smith
5th Jul 2002, 20:54
I would say it depends on the player and the mission design. I am a pacifist / sneaky player, but if driven to sword play by the mission design, then it would be nice to have a possibility of little more coodination. I'm not saying it should be easy. Just more flexible, so a person could build up skill or try different techniques.

I just finished Mansion of Chaos. Swordplay was required there. In one place, I played it about 15 times trying to avoid damage. At exactly the same place in the sequence (a required killing of one of the main characters), every time without fail, my hit would be blocked and the character's sword suddenly got quicker and "longer". I finally had to accept a little damage. Later I found a purple fruit in his room. Evidently that magical increase in his skill was part of the design.

Xcom
5th Jul 2002, 21:02
Man, if they could create something like in Jedi Knight 2, it would be heaven. (imho)

yubetcha
6th Jul 2002, 06:31
BTW, I hope y'all realize that I was kidding with that 'bloodthirsty' comment. Well, half way. I'm not bloodthirsty, but I was kidding about you. Sometimes we do things in a game that we wouldn't do in real life. I avoid swordplay when I can...it's just a last resort kind of thing. But if y'all like it, more power to ya...as long as it's just in the game. I don't wanna hear on the news that you went crazy and killed your neighbor, though :). I think, though, that we should remember that Garret is Garret. I think that he's not supposed to be coordinated with a sword. I think that it's supposed to be awkward for him to wield it, since he's not an expert. I collect swords and daggers. I have them hanging on walls at home, and if you don't practice with one regularly, thereby becoming an expert, then it does become awkward. :)

Lytha
6th Jul 2002, 09:49
I tried to play the Inverted Manse several times... and the reason why I <i>still</i> did not finish it was <b>the sword</b>.

Well. Maybe I should add that I prefer to have a FM cleared of enemies on my first time through, especially when its layout is desorienting and the map is not very clear. It's so much easier to navigate through it then, less reloads... this makes me happy.

Normally, I blackjack everyone. In the Inverted Manse, this is not an option because they are all undead. So, alright, it's backstabbing everything on sight for me.


But this sword really ticks me off - not only is it definitely the weapon of some crazy paladin (being "holy" that it is), but it also totally eliminates the stealth factor (being the bright and shiney object that it is)!!!

It's absolutely like some cursed item from an RPG. Like a "Useless King's Sword of Haste and Destruction" (speaking in terms of Diablo 1: "useless" = -100% damage... all the others are good modifiers)

Weapon modifiers with S&R are definitely cool - but why did he have to make the sword cursed? :(

And so I start the Inverted Manse and never finish it...



Well... just as an example to illustrate why I dislike improved swords or improved sword combat. ;) Improving a weapon might be desastrous for the stealth factor of this 3rd Person <i>Sneaker</i>...


The Vampyre Blade, on the other hand... now that was a nice weapon. :D But there was no need to improve the combat system - if people want to eliminate everything, it's easy enough to backstab everything.

Munin the Raven
9th Jul 2002, 01:27
Lytha, don't you mean "First Person Sneaker"?:D

I don't think the designers should focus on Garrett's sword fighting abilities either, but I'd still like him to have them. I find the occasional sword melee with multiple guards rather refreshing, and there is something satisfying about pulling an about-face on a guard in hot pursuit and giving him a wind-up 360 jumping sword slash to the face, or dropping on a guard from above with an axe-like chop to the top of his head.

I do agree that a full-sized short sword is the ideal blade for Garrett. Something shorter would probably be more useful (and faster), but I'd still like to be able to block incoming sword attacks.

If there's anything I'd like to see added to Garrett's combat ability, it's a slight improvement to his blocking ability and a more thrust-like attack for backstabbing.

Optik45
9th Jul 2002, 01:51
Thats a good way of putting it, I would really like to see some better blocking than actually offensive tactics. Sometimes a melee with guards is something different and fun.


Another thing (Yes brutality again) I would like to see in T3 or in all the Thiefs is the way arrows strike your opponent (Yet again no need for arrows for a real thief but...fun) I would like to actually see my arrows sticking out of my enemy when I shoot them at him, Kinda like how the Darts stick in the Enemies on the n64 game Perfect Dark. It would just be another cool little feature for the bored Thief whos Perfect Ghosted every damn capable mission, and wants to get out some aggression on helpless guards. :D

Munin the Raven
9th Jul 2002, 02:28
I've played Perfect Dark and know the effect you're talking about. The problem with that effect in that game is that the number of "stick targets" was too limited. If you shot an enemy in the eye or ear with a dart a close range, the dart would stick out of their nose, right in the center of their face. In order to effectively use that effect their need to be many more "sticky targets" for arrows/solid projectiles to protrude from.

Also, by allowing the arrows stick into AIs the question of whether or not to allow them to be reused comes up. In real life, pulling fully lodged broadhead arrows out of dead opponents is both difficult and impractical when you've still got unused, undamaged arrows to use. Allowing players to retrieve arrows used to kill or maim opponents would give the master-archer types an inexhaustible resource.

I'd still like to see the effect more in games though. Can you imagine seeing a guard hopping around with an arrow in his butt?:D

Wellers
9th Jul 2002, 06:33
Nah, I wouldn't wan't to see garret as a fansy sword fighter either. Besides the keepers never taught him to be when he was with them. As he left before they maybe had the chance to. I don't think garret whould spend the money to take sword fighting lessons anyways. Let alone that he knows that he might be turned into the police or hammers or even killed if he started to. And remember that he trusts know one anyways. So lets keep it realistic here.

THEthief
9th Jul 2002, 15:00
But I think the reason the game designers only make Garrett a mediocre (sp?) swordsman is because IF he was good, people would not enjoy the sneaker aspect - they would, instead, dwell on the killer aspect, and turn Thief into just one more 'shooter/killer' game series. :) :cool:

RichAsWell
9th Jul 2002, 16:46
I'm new, I'm a friend of RiCh - my name is Rich also - so I'd like to toss in my 2 cents
The sword does seem a bit out of character for a thief. The dagger would be better. He should also have a dagger called a swordbreaker. It has very deep ridges set in the blade. It's a real medieval weapon used to block the wielder from sword attacks. the attacker's sword will get mangled in the ridges and either incapacitate it or break the sword blade. while the attacker is busy trying to get his sword loose the wielder is free to slash with his dagger or sword (in his other hand).

Thorin Oakenshield
9th Jul 2002, 18:10
Welcome RichAsWell
:D I thought you were telling us your financial status:D

Optik45
10th Jul 2002, 02:53
Munin, Your Perfect Dark game wouldnt allow you to shoot directly at where you were shooting and have it stick? Mine I could shoot them in the eye and nose and mouth and cheek and ears or anywhere, Sometimes my bro and I would just fill their faces full of darts, theyd look like a damn pincushion. :D

For the arrows being able to be retrievable, I would so definitely NO. For the Bow Hunters out there, its quite clear that once you shoot a deer that arrow is bent and contourted and most of the time broken in half rendering it beyond reuse, plus it would be stupid to have an unlimited supply of arrows.

As for the comment on if Garrett was a good swordsman it would turn into a first person shooter, well I think not, They way the swordplay is now I can still walk into a room with 4 guards and come out with little or no damage, It just takes practice.

p.s The keepers did show garrett how to shoot a bow and weild a sword. It was very easy but hey it was the training level. Everything was easy.

RichAsWell
10th Jul 2002, 04:39
to thorin
thanks for the warm welcome
my financial situation? I wish.
i'm a college student
money is something i would love to see again

Mr. Perfect
10th Jul 2002, 21:15
To be honest, I KO or kill everything in a mission. I'd rather sneak up on someone once and get them out of the way rather then tip toe about them forever. Of course hiding the boddys get troublesome in big missions. :D

Still, when a KO goes bad I can deal with the gaurds just fine as is. :)

Whatz His Name
11th Jul 2002, 01:41
I agree with the members who think the sword is just another tool incorporated by the developers to open the gameplay.
If the players wants to go into the game like a thief with a blood thrust, they have the sword for all the slaughtering they can muster,
if they want to knock off the enemy from a distance, they can use the bow to their heart's content,
and finally, for the players who don't really like the virtual killing, they can just sneak around and blackjack an occasional enemy.
Considering the need for disk space, I doubt the developers of T3 would have the room to make a fancy sword fight program. But what do I know? :D

Munin the Raven
11th Jul 2002, 02:26
Optik45, in the Perfect Dark I've played darts could be shot into anywhere on a foe, but the darts had several preset "stick locations" they would protrude from and it was painfully obvious at close range. I made this observation with two different cartridges for the N64. I don't know if they released the game on another platform or if they released multiple versions.

<hr>

I don't see any game-balance issues with giving Garrett an improved and more credible sword fighting talent (given the nature of his training); just make more advanced guards. Toss in guards with longswords or berserker guards with a shortsword or scimitar in each hand (just remember to give those tougher grunts a slightly lower intelligence and/or running speed).