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View Full Version : The cause of Blood Omen 2.



TheElderGodofNosgoth
4th Jul 2002, 00:54
Do you think that the Blood Omen 2 events were a direct result of the time shift at the end of Soul Reaver 2? I do. :D

SirRaziel
4th Jul 2002, 01:23
Yep I do to

JANOS_KING_OF_VAMPIRES
4th Jul 2002, 02:43
i dont
wow the polls are even
its 3 -3
50%-50%

KainSyndrome101
4th Jul 2002, 03:12
Why don't you think so, JANOS? The fact that Vorador is alive and well is hard evidence that something was altered in the course of history.

JANOS_KING_OF_VAMPIRES
4th Jul 2002, 04:31
it just doesn't seem likely to me
plus i remeber hearing that it isn't an alternate timeline
voroador's presence will be explained in future games
if anything bo3 would be in an alternate timeline because it should be closer to when kain made vamp raziel

Umah Bloodomen
4th Jul 2002, 04:49
I don't think so because Kain mentioned the Hylden at the end of SR2 (before the shift) which gave me the impression that he personally had a bad encounter with them at some point in time.

Lady Kreliana
4th Jul 2002, 06:37
I guess I'm the only one who doesn't care. :D

Sade Lyrate
4th Jul 2002, 06:58
...And I'm definitely not certain how I should feel about BO2...
For some strange reason, I've found myself unable after a fashion
to 'grasp' the game, really get 'into' it. I recognize the familiar
names and voices, the slight undercurrent of a certain kind of
sadness ground into Nosgoth, the richness of the world itself. But
I fail to immerse myself in all of it, see the references to other games,
place BO2 to its right place in the timeline...
(note to all: above three things happen usually automatically)

:D ...I sooo gotta get my head rightened...

Lozza Mate
4th Jul 2002, 11:57
Originally posted by KainSyndrome101
Why don't you think so, JANOS? The fact that Vorador is alive and well is hard evidence that something was altered in the course of history.
no it isn't

TheElderGodofNosgoth
4th Jul 2002, 15:29
Umah Bloodomen, here is the section of diologue that you are refering too:

Kain lunges forward - and with a massive, history-defying effort, tears the Reaver from Raziel's chest.

Raziel:
(Screams in agony)

The Reaver flies across the room, and the wraith-blade flickers and fades as it is seperated from its twin. Raziel falls forward, rescued from the threshold of oblivion, but nearly competely drained.

Kain:
Now you are free to reclaim your true destiny, Raziel.

Gradually, the room begins to warp around them as history strains to find a new course around this new obstruction. As the future reshuffles itself, a look of horror slowly dawns on Kain's face. With new memories blooming in his mind, Kain realizes he may have just made a terrible mistake.

Raziel V.O.:
Behind Kain's eyes, I could see new memories blooming and dying, as history labored to reshuffle itself around this monumental obstruction...
And I could see by the dawning horror on his face that perhaps we had strained history too far this time...
... that by trying to alter my fate, he may have introduced a fatal paradox.

Then the reshuffling begins to settle, as history finds its new course. But the horror on Kain's face remains, as he realizes what price has been paid to restore Raziel's future.

Kain: (quiet, awestruck horror)
My god... the Hylden...
... we walked right into their trap...

It is quite clear that Kain mentions the Hylden after time changes and not before. :rolleyes: Lozza Mate, yes it does. :D

KainSyndrome101
4th Jul 2002, 16:06
Why not, Lozza Mate? Unless a large portion of the story hasn't been revealed yet, I think that the time changing events in Soul Reaver 2 had a lot to do with the future(or past, for that matter)of Nosgoth.

I'm not entirely sure that it's true, but right now, I'm sticking with my thoughts.

KainSyndrome101
4th Jul 2002, 16:13
Thanks for the good evidence ElderGod.

A-Bomber
4th Jul 2002, 17:26
i believe chris or someone had said that the events of blood omen 2 are not the altered timeline, and the fact that vorador is alive doesnt prove anything, kain mentions that he was dead before and how he came back is still a question, i firmly believe bo2 is unaltered...

crispy
4th Jul 2002, 22:31
I'm just wondering about the dialogue posted by TheElderGodofNosgoth.

If it says at the end of the dialogue that Kain had walked right into a Hylden trap, then perhaps the Hylden General will be ressurected in Blood Omen 3??? Am i wrong in saying that? That's what it may sound like, or some other Hylden figure.... perhaps even "The Builder" may be ressurected in Blood Omen 3???? Or will the Hylden General be ressurected in SR3?????? Interesting!!!

Any thoughts on that dialogue point?

I'm guessing , of course, but that's how I interpret it.

Lady Kreliana
5th Jul 2002, 00:34
Just because Kain and Raziel altered the course of history doesn't necessarily mean that Vorador (and/or Janos for that matter) is alive because of it. I'm not dismissing the possibility, but for now it's all theory and opinion. I know this may sound harsh (and I don't intend for this to sound this way), but don't confuse your opinions with facts. Yes, it is a fact that Kain and Raziel changed history, but it is an opinion that Vorador is alive because of it. Until it's made into a fact, it will stay as an opinion.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that SR2 had no effect on BO2. And trust me, you don't want my honest opinion as to why Vorador and Janos were in BO2.

crispy
5th Jul 2002, 00:43
Originally posted by Lady Kreliana
Just because Kain and Raziel altered the course of history doesn't necessarily mean that Vorador (and/or Janos for that matter) is alive because of it. I'm not dismissing the possibility, but for now it's all theory and opinion. I know this may sound harsh (and I don't intend for this to sound this way), but don't confuse your opinions with facts. Yes, it is a fact that Kain and Raziel changed history, but it is an opinion that Vorador is alive because of it. Until it's made into a fact, it will stay as an opinion.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that SR2 had no effect on BO2. And trust me, you don't want my honest opinion as to why Vorador and Janos were in BO2.

I'll bite...

tell me, what's your "honest" opinion???

Lady Kreliana
5th Jul 2002, 00:48
Trust me, you don't want to know. ;)

If you're just that curious, email me or IM me later. :D

Lozza Mate
5th Jul 2002, 02:35
Originally posted by KainSyndrome101
Why not, Lozza Mate? Unless a large portion of the story hasn't been revealed yet, I think that the time changing events in Soul Reaver 2 had a lot to do with the future(or past, for that matter)of Nosgoth.

I'm not entirely sure that it's true, but right now, I'm sticking with my thoughts.
Vorador's existance does not prove that history has been altered due to Kain and Raziel in SR2, one popular theory is that because of SR2 the Soul Reaver was never created thus william wasn't killed and therefore Vorador wasn't killed in the second vampire purges. I do not believe this to be true and there is one major flaw in that theory: the Soul Reaver is in BO2 (complete with soul devouring ability)

I do not believe that history has been altered at all as a result of SR2, LOK follows a direct timeline and this has not been altered because all of this was what had happened all along. The future is another matter however, that has been altered

you're right about one thing though: a large portion of the BO story has been left out and this will mostlikey be revealed to us in BO3

crispy
5th Jul 2002, 02:54
Chris..... care to enlighten us on this matter?

chinese-soul-eater
5th Jul 2002, 03:04
The way that kain said
oh my god the hylden we walked right into their trap

look at the way he said it that implies that he knew the hylden

not like he said um raziel do you know the hylden ?????

i seem to have started something with the hylden???

BUT RAZIEL WHO THE PEEEEEEEEEP ARE THEY ????

he said it in fright as though he met them already



and even in BO2 the sarafan lord said that he would be back well not him exactly the hyldem race would be back

so hint hint

TheElderGodofNosgoth
5th Jul 2002, 15:03
Usually the simplist answer is the right one, right? The side of this matter that says that BO2 events that were not caused by the time change at the end of SR2 beleave that somehow Janos and Vorador were resorected after there deaths at the end of SR2 and BO:LoK and the heart of darkness was used one way or the other in both cases. We come to th problem that well if the HoD was restored to Janos shortle after it was ripted from his chest how can it be used to resorect Vorador? A Spirit Forge was used to make copys before it was restored to Janos. Who did it? Apperently from you point of view Janos was taken from his stronghold to the Device and was resorected, right? By the Sarafan Lord? Some time later Kain uses the heart of Darkness to reatach Voradors head to his body. Why? Kain had no love for Vorador. He would be just creating problems in the future. Evidence of that is in BO2. All the "well ifs" complication of this explation leads me to beleave that it is not so.

It is much easer to say that Vorador is alive in BO2 because he never died in BO:LoK because the time change at the end of SR2 changed that fact. It is mucy easer to say that Janos is a live because he was kidnaped and not killed because the time change at the end of SR2 changed that fact.

Lozza Mate, you have stated, "one popular theory is that because of SR2 the Soul Reaver was never created thus william wasn't killed and therefore Vorador wasn't killed in the second vampire purges." Well I agree with you there. There are holes in my story. I do reconize that fact that Kain, in BO2, make comments about Vorador reterning to the grave, but that could be talking about his human death. ;) Thats all I got for now.

chuffy
5th Jul 2002, 18:49
i think that BO2 is the altered time-line because when kain says "the helden we walked right into their trap, raziel janos must stay dead". he must be referring to the events of BO2 where the helden use janos to power the device. this is a reason for him to stay dead.
as an after though. now that janos is in the grips of a whole world of helden his enemys, maybe he will be twisted into some kind of demon ( when he was in the device he looked a lot like the demons that attack raziel)
i cant remember if it was said if or how all the ancients died or dissapeared maybe some was taken in to the helden world and de-evloved like janos in the device, and these de-evloved ancients were enslaved by the helden. summing up (take a breath)
i think theres a chance janous becomes hash'ak'gik its a big jump but they look-alike when janos is de-evloved

TheElderGodofNosgoth
5th Jul 2002, 18:53
Some of that I agree with. :D :confused:

Sarah
5th Jul 2002, 19:02
Oo--but you left out the really "real" reason for BO2:$$$....
I am one of the few who really doesn't care why BO2 was made-it's a fun game, is selling rather well, is expanding the franchise nicely, and gave Simon Templeman(not to mention Paul Lukathor) a paycheck...
As for the more philosophical reasons for it being made:I wouldn't want to speculate on this, only to have either SR3 or BO3 ruin my preconceived notions.

chuffy
5th Jul 2002, 21:56
i was just thinking that my comment makes abit more sense because janos wanted to return the pillers to their makers, the vampires, and and hash wanted to get rid of the piller guardians and we never knew why. Could this be hash/janos's secret agenga?
the mind boggles.

chuffy

warpsavant
6th Jul 2002, 03:05
Janos Audron DIED (was *apparently* murdered by the Sarafan) BEFORE any fatal paradox thingee ever occured.

Janos death wasn't prevented by any time change.

Its possible the time change made it possible for someone to bring Janos back, but the reason Janos is in BO2 has nothing to do with the paradox (unless it is Raziel who brought him back)

Moebius needs Janos dead, so that Vorador and Raziel attack the Circle/Sarafan when they do.

Lozza Mate
6th Jul 2002, 06:11
Originally posted by chuffy
i think that BO2 is the altered time-line because when kain says "the helden we walked right into their trap, raziel janos must stay dead". he must be referring to the events of BO2 where the helden use janos to power the device. this is a reason for him to stay dead.

why would Kain be afraid of this when he knows that he defeated the hylden anyway? How could he be afraid of a 'trap' if he knows that he overcomes it?

Kain is refering to something new.

As far as I'm concerned the time shift which occurs at the end of SR2 only effects the future, not the past.

Ender
6th Jul 2002, 09:22
Originally posted by Lozza Mate


why would Kain be afraid of this when he knows that he defeated the hylden anyway? How could he be afraid of a 'trap' if he knows that he overcomes it?

Exactly. I've almost certain that BO2 is pre-altered timeline. Vorador's and Janos' reason for both being alive are simply not yet explained, and as we've all heard before, "will be revealed in time."

I wouldn't think Kain would bother mentioning his "new" memory of the Janos/Hylden trap to Raz if he also remembered destroying the machine, and defeating the sarafan lord.

I've been playing through BO2 again, and can't really find much evidence to support either theory. (other than the already pointed out and unexplained stuff)

chuffy
6th Jul 2002, 11:36
Originally posted by Lozza Mate


As far as I'm concerned the time shift which occurs at the end of SR2 only effects the future, not the past.

what if in the future they go back in the past. if the time line stayed the same, if kain didn't remove the reaver from raziel, raziel would be trapped inside the reaver. so everything that raziel does is new to the time line. and as we know the first thing raziel is going to do is go back in time to see what mystery the pillers realy represents. and in going back he can't help but change the past, because he was never ment to be there

chuffy

KainSyndrome101
6th Jul 2002, 14:36
That's right, chuffy. Because Kain saved Raziel, AND that it was in the past, BEFORE Blood Omen and BO2, it will probably have a major effect on the future from that time and on.

Kain isn't even born yet, so the alterations in the time-stream could easily effect Kain's journeys in Blood Omen and Blood Omen 2. Hell, there might not have even been a Blood Omen 2 if Raziel wasn't saved.

TheElderGodofNosgoth
6th Jul 2002, 20:26
KainSyndrome101, you really hit the nail right on the head. "[T]here might not have even been a Blood Omen 2 if Raziel wasn't saved" is exctly what I think.

KainSyndrome101
6th Jul 2002, 23:10
As for the Soul Reaver's appearence in BO2, with a soul trapped in its blade, I believe there are two possibilities as to why it's there.

1. At the end of SR3, Raziel is sucked into the Reaver, and the series is over.

2. Somehow, another poor soul gets trapped in the Reaver, with a soul devouring ability. To somewhat support that theory, I'll give another theory on that subject:

Raziel and Kain kill a being(probably a villian, a Hylden leader or something), and pressure the Elder God to make it a "reaver of souls." Or else, Raziel will utterly destroy the Elder with the "Spunk Reaver." So, the Elder complies, and the being is thus trapped in the blade for eternity, instead of Raziel, ensuring that he will save Nosgoth or the Ancients.

I know it's very far-fetched, but it's possible. It would be cool if it turned out this way.





P.S. The "Spunk Reaver" is a nickname for the amplified Reaver that Raziel was supposed to get in SR1, in case you don't know.

warpsavant
6th Jul 2002, 23:53
Raziel spared Kain before BO1 and BO2 that doesn't mean that everything changed.

This is evident in SR2, cause after that, Raz goes to the future and we see that nothing has really changed.

If Raziel is trapped in the Reaver, then Moebius/Hyden can take heart to Janos and restore him. If Raziel is not trapped in the Reaver, Raziel can take the heart and restore him.

Either way Janos is coming back. Paradox or not.


I can't explain why Vorador is back but I do not think it has to do with any time shifts. IMO Voradors death is crucial to Kain making his decision to refuse the sacrifice in BO, and that event will never change.

KainSyndrome101
7th Jul 2002, 00:20
[QUOTE]Raziel spared Kain before BO1 and BO2 that doesn't mean that everything changed.[QUOTE]


-That's before Kain saves Raziel, which is a much, much larger alteration in the time-stream.

I don't think Janos coming back has anything to do with the alterations either. The Hylden needed his blood to power the Device, so they recovored his body and revived him, and the device sucked all the life out of him. Then he devolved, and about 400 years later Kain destroyed the device and Janos went back to his natural form. In the Soul Reaver era, he's still trapped in the Hylden Gate because the Sarafan Lord threw him in at the end of BO2.

warpsavant
7th Jul 2002, 04:23
Raziel sparing Kain is what made Kain saving Raziel possible. So how can 1 be any more important than the other? Without one, you don't have the other. There isn't enough evidence either way to decide if Vorador is alive in BO2 because of either of those events. All anyone really has is just opinions.

Just because Raziel said he saw new memories blooming and dieing in Kains eyes does not make it so. Thats Raz's interpretatoin of the look on Kains face. Kains attitude/astonishment/horror at the end of SR2 could simply be his own realization of how far back the Hylden Plot goes. Kain says this in the Device. Janos said the Hylden broke thru when Kain Refused The Sacrifce, but, what if that isnt so? At the end of Sr2 Kain says my god, the Hylden, so they must of somehow gained a foothold in Nosgoth well before Kain R.T.S.


"Oh, little vampire, the game grows interesting. But with so many pawns, can you find the true player?"

Lozza Mate
7th Jul 2002, 09:36
Originally posted by KainSyndrome101
2. Somehow, another poor soul gets trapped in the Reaver, with a soul devouring ability.
that wouldn't work, if it was someone elses soul in the Reaver then it wouldn't have broken on Raziel in SR1 and Raziel would have been killed then and there

KainSyndrome101
7th Jul 2002, 15:18
Yeah, so that leaves us only with number 1. Unless some miracle happens that Raziel doesn't get trapped into the Reaver, I think we pretty much know his fate now.

TheElderGodofNosgoth
7th Jul 2002, 18:44
We can all agree on one thing. BO2 opens up a lot of questions. So many that they must be answered some were down that line. Hopefully we will get our answers in Soul Reaver 3. The goel of Soul Reaver 3 will probably be Raziel trying to prevent his soul being sucked in to the Reaver. If that never happeneds then the Soul Reaver is never created and Raziel is free to chose his proper destiny (by now it appers it is not supose to be the Soul Reaver). As the time line stands now Raziel's soul is sucked in to the Reaver some were between the end of SR2 and when Mobious gives the Soul Reaver to William the Just. There will probable be some more time line hopping. :(

Anyway, when Kain refered to the Hylden trap at the end of SR2, I think he ment that the Hylden orcrastrated Raziel reserection, and his death at the hands of the Reaver. We more or less know that Mobious, The Elder God, and the Hylden are all trying to kill Kain and Raziel. There motives may be different however. I dont know what Mobious is getting out of this. The Elder Gods explinaion I think and be taken at face value. The Hylden just want to take over Nosgot and enslave the human race.

KainSyndrome101
7th Jul 2002, 18:51
That's a 450 year time-span of trying not to get sucked into the Reaver. That's a lot.

WolfBlade
9th Jul 2002, 22:27
Well I would say YES DEFINATELY. After all if you think about it Raziel says "That is why I didn't feel the disturbance the reaver was never embued to be a soul stealing weapon". But then of course you see right before your very own eyes in Blood Omen 1 that the weapon in wich Kain uses is in fact THE SOUL REAVER. And in Blood Omen 2 it does say that the Nexus Stone has the power to protect you from the Soul Reaver. And since that they played right in to that trap I am sure that they were supposed to change the past that way too. So obviously unless the Soul Reaver was still the Blood Stealing weapon then from what Janos said and how he said that it steals life blood then I would blieve that the reaver would then use the victims blood to attack rather than Kain's Magic.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2002, 01:05
I really don't think BO2 occured on an altered timeline. I mean think about it, you are all saying the events of SR2 changed the timeline to affect BO2.

There's one flaw with this. At the end of BO2, Kain tells us flat out that he is going to strike back at the Sarafan and go for what is their prized possessions. (The Sarafan Brethren). He expressed a part of what he was about to do in resurrecting them.

I fail to see how this could've been an altered timeline, merely for the fact that without Kain bringing back the glory boys of the Sarafan Order, that the events of either SR1 or SR2 would take place. Human Raziel (had he even existed in the first place)wouldve just grown up and died a Sarafan without ever killing himself, without becoming a vampire, and without discovering that he is the Soul Reaver.

This all goes back to my theory of Raziel merely becoming human in an attempt to conceal him by the ancients. He is the power of the Reaver (and eventual Reaver guardian). The ancients needed to protect that power, which is why I think he was born a human who became a Sarafan. (No one would ever suspect it...Hylden company included ;) ). The Sarafan are the holy ones...the good guys. No one would dare strike the Sarafan. It was the perfect act of disguise. I don't think the time shifted and changed these events because it would mean that none of it would've happened. Raziel wouldve remained a no-name face. :p (Except of course to Janos).

BadGuysAlwaysWin
10th Jul 2002, 03:24
Uhm... I thought the Soul Reaver thing was explained. Kain waited until that paradoxical moment when Raziel's soul was both INSIDE and OUTSIDE the Soul Reaver, then pulled the Reaver out. That means that, at the end of SR2, a PIECE of Raz' soul is still in the physical Reaver, which allows there to be a paradox. That is why Raziel fell into Spectral at the end, because some of his soul was devoured, which turned the Reaver into the Soul Reaver. That is what I inferred from the end of SR2.

KainSyndrome101
10th Jul 2002, 05:22
No, no, no, no, no. Yes, the Reaver was hovering both inside and outside the blade, but when Kain pulled it out, the whole process stopped, and the soul went back to Raziel. Raziel's "original" destiny is still yet to come, since he still has the wraith-blade. The only reasons why there was a paradox was for Kain ripping out the Reaver, and Raziel's "previous" soul(the wraith-blade)meeting with Raziel's current soul when hovering both inside and outside the Reaver blade.

KainSyndrome101
10th Jul 2002, 05:24
Wait a sec, maybe your right. I don't know.

Man, this is confusing. I get what your saying, but could you explain a bit more?

warpsavant
10th Jul 2002, 06:13
WTG BAW I infer the same thing.

BadGuysAlwaysWin
10th Jul 2002, 06:34
Ya, because it CAN'T be his Wraith Blade that is the other soul. See, he ALWAYS has his wraith blade with him. If its his wraith blade that is acting as the "other soul", then ANYTHING Raz EVER does is altering the timeline because he always has the wraith blade with him (raz's soul + wraith blade, also raz's soul = 2 identical souls, thus a paradox). That is why his wraith blade CAN'T count as a factor in the creation of a paradox. And that means that if Raz's soul was displaced enough for reality to consider it as "two identical souls", albeit not FULL ones, then Kain's removing the Reaver means that each blade has half a soul in it. See?

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2002, 06:43
Now that I read this I think you are both right (KainSyndrome101 and BadGuysAlwaysWin).

Raziel is both inside AND outside of the blade, however that alone isn't what is the paradox. The paradox arises from the fact that by being consumed by the blade, that would've meant the end of it, however as KainSyndrome pointed out, Raziel still exists in a semi-physical manifestation - his original destiny still awaits.


How is this? (Sorry for the rambling) ;)

I don't think the entire events that occured in BO2 were of the altered timeline. I am now inclined to believe that the game actually altered in the middle. Kain went up against The Sarafan Lord, lost, went comatose, awakened, traveled through Meridian up until the point of where he discovers about The Mass. That is when I beleve the timeline altered. That would mean that during that exact moment, back in time, the ending events of SR2 were occuring. Depending on what follows this (hopefully to be revealed in SR3) is when Janos got his heart back. Kain mentioned the Hylden alright, because the paradox had begun the moment Raziel disposed of his human self. Kain forsaw the Mass related events of BO2 (in particular the discovery of Janos Audron being alive). Kain knew that Janos' heart would be returned (and now that I think about it) by Raziel, had he not been drawn into the blade. Someone else saw this occur as well (who though is the question). That person awaited the moment for Raz to return with the heart and replace it, in order to claim Janos and kidnap him (so he can be imprisoned). Now that I think about it, I think Moebius orchestrated this for the Elder/Hash. He and Rahab were already in the retreat to claim the body of Janos, Moebius simply met up with him after the fact. If anyone were to orchestrate this it would be Moebius. He's tricked in the past, what would prevent him from doing it again? It has been said before, he is the only one (expressed so far) who could know the outcome of any of this and therefore play his cards correctly. I think Moebius kept the body, will con Raziel into NOT restoring it for some odd reason, which will of course ensure Raziel won't listen and do it anyway. But the body will be then handed over to the Hylden who will imprision it and ensure it devolves into the Beast for their own dark agendas. I don't think that Kain mentioned Janos having to stay dead only to prevent Raz from doing it on his own, but to warn him of the manipulations he would later endure. Raziel is still a bit naive...I think he will overlook the "deeper" meaning of Kain's insight and justify (to himself) that Janos being spared will counter the puppetmasters, when in reality it will be aiding them in their games.

BadGuysAlwaysWin
10th Jul 2002, 07:25
To some extent, I agree Umah. See, the first alteration to history was VERY slight (the future Kain was not killed in the past). This has no impact on the present time that they are in. If anything, all this would do is decide whether, 2430 years in the future, if the Pillars are restored or not. Raziel ALWAYS killed his past self. The unaltered timeline is supposed to go like this:
-Kain travels back in time with Raziel in pursuit.
-In the halls of the Sarafan Stronghold, in front of the tomb of William the Just, Raziel slays Kain.
-Raziel travels to the future, tricked by Moebius.
-Raziel travels to the past to meet Janos Audren, but also clears the path for the six leading Sarafan Priests, who kill Janos and take his heart.
-Raziel travels to the fortress and slays the six. The Reaver turns on him and devours his soul, thus becoming a Soul Reaver.
-(AS FAR AS I CAN FIGURE, MY OWN STUFF HERE) Moebius takes the Soul Reaver and gives it to William the Just, 470 years in the future.
-After the events of SR2 (in the period of 30 years before BO) Moebius places the Soul Reaver into Avernus
-Kain does BO, then (my own belief here) raises the six Sarafan priests to get revenge against Malek and all the Vampire Hunters. The sight of the proud Sarafan, symbols of humanity's crusade against vampirism, now turned to serve Kain, breaks the morale or Kain's enemies. Within a hundred years of the end of BO, Kain rules Nosgoth.
-Kain steals into the Chronoplast and discovers what Raziel will become, and his own death. He also suspects that the events seem too well ordered, and thus realizes that there is a force that is controlling everything. He decides that his own death must be prevented, so that HE can prevent Raziel's.
-Kain rips Raziel's wings and damns him to the Abyss.
-Raziel returns and slays his vampire brethren (save Turel).
-Kain travels back in time with Raziel in pursuit.
-Kain convinces Raziel to not kill him, and survives his destined death. Time reshuffles from this minor yet still impassable obstruction.
-Raziel travels to the future, tricked by Moebius.
-Raziel travels to the past to meet Janos Audren, but also clears the path for the six leading Sarafan Priests, who kill Janos and take his heart.
-Raziel travels to the fortress and slays the six. The Reaver turns on him and begins to devour his soul. Kain emerges and waits until enough of Raziel's soul has been devoured by the Reaver to turn it into the Soul Reaver, but still leaving enough in Raziel to create the paradox that occurs whenever Raz meets the Soul Reaver. Kain draws the blade out at this point, since the blade has its soul-devouring capability.
-Raziel, not having fully received Kain's warning, returns the Heart of Darkness to Janos.
-With the re-emergence of Janos Audren, the focus of the Vampire Purges shift from Vorador. As such, Janos is again slain, but Vorador survives.
-Moebius delivers Janos' body to Meridian.
-Vorador, enraged at the loss of his Master, agrees to create an army of Vampires for the fledgling, yet powerful, Kain. Kain, with his life's training as a nobleman and Knight, is a brilliant tactician and general. With Vorador to raise an Army for him, he does not endeavour to create one for himself, and thus does not yet learn how to create Alchemic Vampires like himself. The raising takes time, during which Kain increases his own strength, learning how to leap high into the air and perfecting his mist form to the point of being able to kill while still in mist. His army completed, he goes on a rampage, ripping apart northern Nosgoth.
-Kain's conquest is halted when he is defeated by the resurrected Sarafan under the control of the Sarafan Lord.
-200 years after his "death", Kain is revived by the Cabal. He meets a far weaker Vorador, tired after raising the army for Kain and thus unable to do so again.
-Kain encounters a devolved Janos Audren. After destroying The Mass, Kain thus restores Janos' energy to him.
-Upon the attack on the Hylden City, Vorador is wounded by the Sarafan Lord. During the final battle, Janos Audren and the Sarafan Lord both fall into the Demon Dimension.
-BO3
-The sight of the proud Sarafan, symbols of humanity's crusade against vampirism, now turned to serve Kain, breaks the morale or Kain's enemies. Within a hundred years of the end of BO, Kain rules Nosgoth.
--Kain steals into the Chronoplast and discovers what Raziel will become, and his own death. He also suspects that the events seem too well ordered, and thus realizes that there is a force that is controlling everything. He decides that his own death must be prevented, so that HE can prevent Raziel's.
-Kain rips Raziel's wings and damns him to the Abyss. However, Janos Audren returns and saves Raziel from perishing in the Abyss. Thus, Raziel remains a Vampire, and regrows his wings. Janos, however, is under the complete control of the Hylden. Thus, Janos helps Raziel take the Soul Reaver from Kain and slay Kain in the future. Blinded by his past and by the elegant words of Janos, Raziel slays every Vampire in Nosgoth by ringing the bells of the Silenced Cathedral, dooming himself and Janos. With all the Vampires finally gone, the seal of the Pillars is smashed and the Hylden invade the world, dooming it to an eternity of their rule.

Mind you, this is what the time stream IS (according to my beliefs lol). This is what Kain will labor to CHANGE.

warpsavant
10th Jul 2002, 18:28
It is quite clear that you believe "Janos Must Stay Dead" because it is Raziel who returns the heart to Janos. That isnt necessarily the case. It could be that well before Raziel has a chance to return the heart, whats left of the Sarafan/Moebius/Mortanius can return the heart to Janos and deliver him to the Device/Demons/Hylden before Raziel even got back to the Aerie.

Raziel DOES NOT have the heart. Before he can return it to Janos, he must FIND IT in the first place. Before he does so, whoever has it can just bring Janos back themselves.

At the end of SR2, the VAMPIRE PURGE ENDS.

It is not until ~460 yrs later that Moebius Manipulates William and Kain, creating a 2nd Vampire Purge.

So you are saying that for the approx 460 yrs Janos was back and was not trapped in the device? And Vorador knew he was back, and somehow SAW Janos get kidnapped and put in the device, and yet Vorador does nothing about it. The last time this happened V himself attacked the CIRCLE OF NINE, and this time he makes babies instead? I think thats crazy. If Vorador knew his master was in the device, he himself would attack.

Kain meets Vorador in Sanctuary and says" Vorador, the reformed sado-hedonist of Termongent Forest, I had MET HIM ONCE BEFORE IN HIS NEW ROLE AS PATRIARCH, I still knew not to trust him." The first time Kain met V, he was a "decadent old fool", so Kain must be refering to some time after V's ressurection because now Vorador is reformed and getting involved.

"They thought they had destroyed us, but you proved them wrong...you created a new race..." Kain was the last surviving vampire in Nosgoth, this is what he is refering to when he says they destroyed us.

Later Kain argues with Vorador and says "Do you so wish to return to the grave old friend, YOU are in NO position to challenge ME..." This leads me to believe it was Kain himself who brought Vorador back. Kain was the last Vampire and needed more Vampires to take over Nosgoth, this is why he brings Vorador back, he knows Vorador knows how to make Vampires, something Kain does not yet know how to do.

Janos is'nt coming back from the Demon Dimension, thats junk. Janos has to stay dead in the early past, he will never be used for the device, get it? THAT WILL BE THE ALTERED TIMELINE, AND ONLY THAT. If they cant use Janos for the device, (i.e. Raziel DEVOURS HIS SOUL, so he can't be restored, ever) then BO2 CHANGES COMPLETELY.

But since its SO SIMPLE to understand why Janos is in the device, regardless, if it's Raziel who restores him, or someone else, BO2 is in the "unaltered" timeline. Why is Vorador there? Becasue Kain ressurected him somehow.

BadGuysAlwaysWin
10th Jul 2002, 19:38
All of that is not necessarily the case either. Why would Kain be so adamant that Janos stay dead if he defeated the machine? This cannot be the only purpose Kain has to require Janos' death to be uninterrupted, as he already defeated THAT Hylden plot. There is no reason why Janos might NOT return from the Demon Dimension, since the Hylden's frontal assault has failed, they would be looking for other means to re-enter Nosgoth.

"It could be that well before Raziel has a chance to return the heart, whats left of the Sarafan/Moebius/Mortanius can return the heart to Janos and deliver him to the Device/Demons/Hylden before Raziel even got back to the Aerie. "

There would be no reason for the Sarafan to even consider returning the heart, as they are fanatically anti-Vampire. Remember, the Moebius said that he could not help Raziel out of the Stronghold because his hunters would not understand that a Vampire (albeit a dead one) was in league with them. And they were only mercenaries; the Sarafan are fanatics. It's just not plausible for them to do anything that involved breathing life into Janos. Moebius is always a wild card, but then we can just as easily say that he didn't do that. Since he can basically manipulate anyone and everyone, saying that he COULD do this is pointless, since he COULD do anything. And Mortanius, from what the game has shown us, is the ONLY Pillar that fights to maintain the Circle. My guess is that Nupraptor's madness couldn't poison his mind because it was already under assault by Hash'ak'gik. Furthermore, it may be true that Raziel did not have the heart. Remember tho, that when this all started, he did not have the Soul Reaver, let alone the other incarnations of it, the wall climbing ability, the projectile ability, or ANYTHING. Just because he doesn't have something NOW does not mean that he won't have it LATER.
What I'm saying is not necessarily that Janos was back for all these years. What I'm saying is that he is back in time to avert the Purge's attention from Vorador. He is apparently "killed" again, though his heart is not removed from his body. Vorador believes that Janos is dead, whereas he is secretly spirited away to the Device. Since the Circle has ALREADY been slain by Kain, and Moebius also (though not in the same way that we see in BO1), Vorador has no "entity" on which to exact revenge except humanity itself. Kain, who had been a nobleman and a knight in his life, is thus obviously well versed as a tactician as well, and thus convinces Vorador to create a Vampire Army with which to punish the Humans. Vorador, enraged at having lost his master a SECOND time, agrees and spawns the Army for Kain. And thus, BO2.

"Kain meets Vorador in Sanctuary and says" Vorador, the reformed sado-hedonist of Termongent Forest, I had MET HIM ONCE BEFORE IN HIS NEW ROLE AS PATRIARCH, I still knew not to trust him." The first time Kain met V, he was a "decadent old fool", so Kain must be refering to some time after V's ressurection because now Vorador is reformed and getting involved."

Not necessarily, again. Vorador believed that ignoring the Humans was the best way to go, as that would ensure the survival of Vampires. However, he does not know about Kain's time-travelling, and from his point of view, humanity gathers itself and launches it at the Vampire foe who has tried to parley a "truce", if you will. Vorador sees that, by advising the Vampires to stay out of human affairs, he has given humanity enough courage to strike at the Vampires, and they nearly succeed in destroying them all, including (apparently) Janos Audren. Thus, Vorador goes back on his old beliefs, and joins Kain by making a new Vampire Army (as the oldest Vampire and as the father of the new race, Vorador is indeed a "patriarch").

"They thought they had destroyed us, but you proved them wrong...you created a new race..." Kain was the last surviving vampire in Nosgoth, this is what he is refering to when he says they destroyed us."

Not necessarily. Once again, I believe that basically, Kain and Vorador were the last surviving Vampires. Kain convinces Vorador to create a new race and abandon the belief of staying aloof from human affairs.

"Later Kain argues with Vorador and says "Do you so wish to return to the grave old friend, YOU are in NO position to challenge ME..." This leads me to believe it was Kain himself who brought Vorador back. Kain was the last Vampire and needed more Vampires to take over Nosgoth, this is why he brings Vorador back, he knows Vorador knows how to make Vampires, something Kain does not yet know how to do."

Remember that they are VAMPIRES. They are ALL from the grave! This threat could be used on ANY Vampire!!! Also, if Kain could resurrect VORADOR, the mightiest of Vampires, then how could he not create a new Army? And Vorador would be far too weak to come back from the grave and then create a brand new Army. Remember, Kain was not dead, but in a "pseudo-coma" for 200 years, and he lost nearly ALL of his powers. Death would surely render Vorador into a near-fledgling!

"Janos is'nt coming back from the Demon Dimension, thats junk. Janos has to stay dead in the early past, he will never be used for the device, get it? THAT WILL BE THE ALTERED TIMELINE, AND ONLY THAT. If they cant use Janos for the device, (i.e. Raziel DEVOURS HIS SOUL, so he can't be restored, ever) then BO2 CHANGES COMPLETELY."

We don't know that Janos isn't coming back. There is just as much proof that he is then as he isn't (both of which is "no proof whatsoever"). Furthermore, the Hylden don't seem to blindly do things (like kill Janos) when they could weave an intricate plot (like use Janos to free them, the ULTIMATE irony). And that is my point, warp. If Janos was never revived, then BO2 wouldn't happen. However, since Kain doesn't ever feel the NEED to mention this to Raziel BEFORE the shift, it is PROOF that BO2 is in the altered timeline, the "memories that bloom" in his mind. Remember that Kain MET Janos Audren in BO2 and knows all about him. Thus, he already knows that Janos Audren is alive. Why, then, would he tell Raz that Janos must STAY DEAD if the UNaltered timeline would have him living anyway? That is proof positive that Janos comes back in the ALTERED timeline, and thus BO2 is altered. Kain did not say anything about Janos staying dead until after history changed and his memories altered to having met Janos in his past and whatever it is that occurred after that.

warpsavant
10th Jul 2002, 20:40
It isn't clear that all vampires are from the grave. Janos Audron is a vampire who was never dead. (until his heart gets ripped out, then he dies and comes back somehow) He passes his "vampiric" gift unto Vorador, who then passess that gift on to other humans in the same way. I don't think they were dead. This is why they retain so much of their humanity IMO. Janos created Vorador way before he(Janos) was killed by the Sarafan.

The Sarafan/Moebius/Mortanius are in cahoots with the Hylden, and since the Hylden Doomsday Weapon needs Janos' Blood to power itself, it is pretty clear to me why Moebius/Mortanius would restore Janos, i.e. specifically for this purpose. They have him killed so Vorador and Raziel attack when they do, and once that is accomplished, they restore him, to use in the Device. (this was the plan all along!)

With the devastation of the Circle, and the death of 6/7 of the Sarafan Warrior Prests, the SARAFAN/VAMPIRE PURGE COLLAPSES, when Moebius/Mortanius return the Heart to Janos, there is NO MORE VAMPIRE CRUSADE, so it doesn't matter that Janos comes back because NO ONE REALLY KNOWS ABOUT IT except the people(person) who did it! Everyone is dead/dammed/ or possessed, who is going to question Moebius?And, they are putting him in the device, wich is worse than death So it doesnt matter, Janos is coming back either way. Either Raziel does it or someone else does.

Thats why I dont think Janos in the Device Bo2 has anything to do with the Paradox at the end, he can easily be explained either way, plenty or reasons.

While the whole idea of Janos replacing Vorador as the Target of the 2nd Vampire Purge, brought on by Kains assassination of King William, is interesting, this means Kain, Janos and Vorador were the last surviving Vampires in Nosgoth at the time, and the REASON Kain uses to refuse the sacrifice is not there, and I don't think that event is going to change. I think Kain has to be the last vampire, it is a key element in his dilema.

I'm under the impression that Janos was placed in that Device almost immediately following his murder at the hands of the Sarafan, either by demons, or Hylden, or Moebius/Mortanius.

I don't think he is restored and then roams Nosgoth for 500 yrs before getting captured by Moebius Mob in the time before BO1, after Williams assassination. I think he was in the Device the entire time, and this is why Nosgoth decays like it does until it becomes an irredeamable wasteland in the time of Kains Empire in Sr1. The Hylden arent coming back to Nosgoth. There is nothing to come back to. They are going to try and re-write history from an earlier point somehow. This is the My God, the Hylden....

In order to save the land from the decay, Janos must never be put in the device. I think Kains goal in Sr3 will be to convince Raziel to devour Janos soul. This way he can never be used in the device, and the events of BO2 will be completely re-written. But I do not think Raziel ever gets the chance to restore Janos, because the Hylden are going to, have someone else, do it first. It'll be Raziels job to kill him. That's irony. He kills the guy twice. :eek:

Anyway, that's my interpretation. I don't think there is enough "proof" to decide either with way, but since you are writing a fan fic hopefully you find the different opinion usefull. :p ;)

KainSyndrome101
10th Jul 2002, 22:14
Yeah, but, I think Janos was lying in some tomb somewhere(or his own Retreat)after he died for a loooooong time, until about 500 years later. Then, Kain damns the Pillars, and the Sarafan Lord breaches through the Demon Dimension. He then revives the Sarafan order, and plans to use the long dormant, and out-of-use Device to destroy everything but his race.

Remember the Builder in the Eternal Prison? He said that he built the Device when the war between the Ancients and the Hylden was still going on. But, he never completed the Device. So, that means that the Sarafan Lord didn't revive Janos until he got out of the Demon Dimension. The Sarafan Lord didn't show up until right after BO1 anyway.

If Janos had been taken to the device right after his death, without it being powered or on, or anybody or thing to feed him, don't you think he just would have died in a short amount of time?

TheElderGodofNosgoth
10th Jul 2002, 22:19
Going back to that parodox thing. The "fatel pardox" was created when Raziels soul was not consumed by the Reaver. It was suppost to happen then, but it did not. History reshuffled. At this point Raziel is still fated to be consumed by the Reaver because he still has the wrath blade with him but he is now able to chase his true destiny. What that is we dont know. I am just really hopeing some of the answers we get from SR3 will reveal some of the questions that were brought up in BO2.

warpsavant
11th Jul 2002, 04:05
Kain V.O.:
Janos Audron. The legendary vampire of ancient days. How was this transformation possible?

Kain:
But Janos is dead - his heart torn from his body.

Janos:
Not dead, but imprisoned in this place. My blood was needed to power the Device and feed the Mass within. Starved of blood and sapped of life, I devolved into that horrible creature. The moment you poisoned the Mass, I felt my strength return. That which is divine cannot be wholly suppressed.


Again, I do not think Janos was in a Tomb, or was on the floor in his retreat for 500 yrs before he became the target of the purge instead of Vorador.

If Janos was anywhere other than the Device, Vorador would have known IMO and done something about it. But Vorador DID NOT KNOW. All Vorador knows is that his heart was torn out, and he was killed.



Vorador:
What's this? No, wait. Do I dare believe my senses? Janos? My sire? They killed you!

Janos:
No, far worse. But that is a story for another time.

WolfBlade
11th Jul 2002, 04:05
Personally, well first of all I haven't completed BO2 or SR1 but I have completed BO1 (without movies my game is messed) and SR2. Basically from what I have seen its all too confusing. So many questions are brought up since I only have about 2/5 of the story line. Basically I don't think I will get through BO2 for a while cause im going on vacation and am not going to be back for about a week beyond that my game crashes everytime I load up my save at 50% chapter 6 The Nexus Stone and personally my other save point is right before you play hide and go seek with marcus. I don't wanna have to do that entire chapter 5 again the 3rd time. But basically I GUARENTEE YOU that SR2 changed ALL of the LOK games. BO1, BO2, SR1, and SR2 in some way are GUARENTEED changed by SR2. After all if Raziel hadnt' persued Kain into the past and Raziel hadn't put the corpses in thier tomb for kain to raise they would of never of came to existence PLUS if Raziel hadn't imbued the Vampiric Blade into the Soul Reaver then none of this stuff would of happened. Kain would of never found it. The Sarafan Lord would of never stolen it. Kain would of never gotten it back. Kain would of never shattered it on Raziel. Raziel wouldn't of ever gotten it. So you see what Guarentees that the past was shaped by the future was the reaver itself and beyond that if you think about it whats completely confusing is... The Reaver turned itself on Raziel because the 2 finally met and had no more enemies to kill. If so then that would mean when it turned itself on Raziel then Raziel basically used the Soul Reaver from the future to make the Soul Reaver of the past:confused:

If im wrong somewhere please correct me. And my last things to say are; if you disagree with me then please email me a simplified version of your story I don't have the time to read EVERY post on this board and also Email me if they finally make a patch that fixes the save games to make them not crash so much.

WolfBlade
11th Jul 2002, 04:15
Can someone tell me about this though I am completely confused. well first of all if kain restored the pillars by all of the other people that protect the pillars how are they damned. Ariel was already dead and the other guys were all killed and the pillars were restored. Is Kain the new Balance Guardian or something cause I know he was supposed to sacrafice himself and Im sure that the answer to this question lies in BO1 inside one of the movies. And at the end of BO1 WHO is it that is the main boss at the end. as you know i don't have the movies on my BO1 so I don't know

warpsavant
11th Jul 2002, 05:09
LOL, when you PM'd me, the first thing I said to myself was this guy didn't even play the game. Buy the games, dont download them

BadGuysAlwaysWin
11th Jul 2002, 08:13
Originally posted by TheElderGodofNosgoth
Going back to that parodox thing. The "fatel pardox" was created when Raziels soul was not consumed by the Reaver. It was suppost to happen then, but it did not. History reshuffled. At this point Raziel is still fated to be consumed by the Reaver because he still has the wrath blade with him but he is now able to chase his true destiny. What that is we dont know. I am just really hopeing some of the answers we get from SR3 will reveal some of the questions that were brought up in BO2.

Not true, Elder. The "fatal paradox" that Raziel mentions isn't really a paradox. What Raziel means is that, by altering Raziel's fate, Kain has inadvertently doomed Nosgoth, and that this doom is somehow triggered by Janos returning to life. The Paradox only occurs when two identical versions of the Soul Reaver (either the blade or Raziel himself) meet in one time period. That paradox was artificially created by Kain. The "edge of the coin" was that instant when the Reaver had not FINISHED devouring Raziel's soul, and reality thus recognized the Reaver as the Soul Reaver, AND recognized Raziel as still having his soul. By pulling out the Reaver at this point, Kain basically tore Raziel's soul in two, since this is the ONLY way to explain the paradox.


Originally posted by warpsavant
Again, I do not think Janos was in a Tomb, or was on the floor in his retreat for 500 yrs before he became the target of the purge instead of Vorador.

Think about it warp. If Janos has ALWAYS been raised, then why is it so important that Kain adamantly insist to Raziel that Janos must STAY dead? Obviously it is because of this shift in time that Janos' resurrection becomes a problem. Since the only person really affected immediately is Raziel (since he is alive), he is the only altered factor in the time equation, and thus it MUST be him that raises Janos. And since Janos appears in BO2, we must thus assume that BO2 takes place in the timeline created at the end of SR2, but NOT whatever timeline might possibly be created in SR3.

KainSyndrome101
11th Jul 2002, 16:32
Actually, you are absolutely right about the "getting sucked into the Reaver" thing BadGuysAlwaysWin.

Kain waits for the temporal distortion that makes everything dizzy, and then he pulls the Reaver out. Yes, this is what he means by "the edge of the coin." It means both choices. The edge is both.

Now that the Reaver has become the Soul Reaver without Raziel's full soul, and that he is still alive, allows him to go on to find his true destiny.

When Raziel said, "And I realized that I could never escape my terrible destiny. I had merely postponed it," I betcha he didn't know what Kain actually did, that he doesn't know that he only has half of his soul. Remember what Amy said on that questionnaire? She said that characters have opinions, but they're not always right.

The reason why history had to reshuffle itself was for Raziel being alive, and the things that he's gonna' do in the future.

chuffy
11th Jul 2002, 17:40
that sounds reasonable, i could live with that.


chuffy

warpsavant
11th Jul 2002, 18:35
Janos:
Not dead, but imprisoned in this place. My blood was needed to power the Device and feed the Mass within. Starved of blood and sapped of life, I devolved into that horrible creature. The moment you poisoned the Mass, I felt my strength return. That which is divine cannot be wholly suppressed.






Think about it warp. If Janos has ALWAYS been raised, then why is it so important that Kain adamantly insist to Raziel that Janos must STAY dead?




Janos ressurection ALWAYS causes a problem, they turn on the device and the Glyph poisons the land/humans and vampires alike. Keep in mind, that previously raziel was not present to stop Janos, and for whatever reason, it may be fated that ONLY Raziel has the power to keep Janos dead, because as Janos said, Divintity can not be wholly suppressed.




Since the only person really affected immediately is Raziel (since he is alive), he is the only altered factor in the time equation, and thus it MUST be him that raises Janos.



Regardless of what you think, Raziel DOES NOT HAVE THE HEART, and MUST OBTAIN IT before he can bring it back to Janos. Its MO that Raziel NEVER GETS THE HEART BACK.

It could very well be that "Janos Must Stay" dead because it is the "DARK FORCES" who want to bring Janos back ALL ALONG, Kain could be telling Raziel "Janos Must Stay Dead" in hopes that Raziel will take the heart from the Dark Forces BEFORE they have the oppurtuntiy to restore Janos and put him in the device.

The big catch is that Raziel himself is adamant on returning the heart, so even if Raziel gets the heart and prevents the Dark Fores from restoring Janos, Raziel himself has the same idea in mind! This is the trap! HELLO! Raziel doesnt know they want to bring Janos back. Thats the beauty of it. Raziel steals the heart from the Dark Forced intent on restoring Janos, not realizing that is what the DARK FORCES HAD IN MIND ALL ALONG.

BadGuysAlwaysWin
11th Jul 2002, 21:39
If Janos has ALWAYS returned, then why do they require Raziel? And why is Raziel's staying alive the cause of a possible "fatal paradox" if Janos is revived EITHER WAY? See, that can't make sense. If Janos is revived whether Raziel is living or dead, then Raziel cannot make such a huge impact that Kain urgently tells him that "Janos must stay dead!" Because Kain makes no mention of Janos' life or death, it has to be understood that Janos never returned to life until Kain saved Raziel, which causes a shift so that Janos Audren is returned. It makes no sense that Janos was brought back to life either way.

warpsavant
11th Jul 2002, 22:44
If Janos isn't brought back to life, then there is no BO2. So if Raziel is trapped in the Reaver, what plays out during BO2?



The future flows around our petty actions, finding the path of least resistance while admitting only the slightest alterations.


The events of BO2 must always take place, with slight alterations. Janos Audron must always be used in the Device, there is no other Ancient Vampire to be used for this purpose.

So if Raziel is trapped in the Reaver, someone else MUST restore Janos so the events of BO2 can play out the way they do. This is what makes sense to me and it doesnt matter if it doesnt make sense to you, your way makes no sense to me. :)


PS They needed Raziel to kill Kain, becasue the Sarafan Lord didnt get the job done. Kain needs raziel to kill janos, permantely.

BadGuysAlwaysWin
12th Jul 2002, 01:00
But what I'm saying is that Janos doesn't ALWAYS get revived. By changing the timeline, Kain creates the situation necessary for Janos' return, which leads to BO2 (which is part of what Kain remembers as the "new memories bloom in his mind"). There is no other Ancient Vampire that could be used in the Device. But remember that the Device doesn't necessarily run on the blood of an Ancient Vampire, only an Ancient: an Ancient Hylden would do as well (the Hylden that we see now are fallen, according to the Sarafan Lord. Both the modern Vampires and the modern Hylden are "fallen gods"). It has to be Raziel that raises Janos, because Janos' revival is not even a concern to Kain until after the timeline shifts. If Janos is used in the Device one way or another, why does Kain not try to do anything about it until AFTER time shifts? And why does he react with such horror to his new memories? Obviously because Janos' revival and its results are new memories that have blossomed in his mind!

warpsavant
12th Jul 2002, 01:52
The Ancient Hylden Blood poisoned the Mass. Janos blood did not. They could not use an Ancient Hylden to feed the Mass.



The Beast:
Have no fear of me. I am enslaved by the beings that built this monstrosity, to feed this machine with my life.

Janos:
My blood was needed to power the Device and feed the Mass within. Starved of blood and sapped of life, I devolved into that horrible creature.





The Builder:
It has a simple weakness. Blood is like poison to its system. And not any blood, but pure blood from the elder races. My blood. My blood will poison and kill the creature.



Its possible Janos revivial was not a concern to Kain because he did not know it was Raziel who would restore Janos, until the time shift. I think Raziels restoration of Janos could have different consequences than if someone else restores him.

They don't change history, they merely re-write it. So it's my belief someone else restored Janos when Raziel was trapped in the Reaver, because they need JANOS to feed the Mass. Not some Ancient Hylden.

crispy
12th Jul 2002, 02:25
You've all lost me... lol...

I haven't got a clue what's going on.... too much to think about at one time...

TheElderGodofNosgoth
13th Jul 2002, 18:06
Me too.:D

Phildo
14th Jul 2002, 13:22
But wait- in BO1, Kain has to deal with a future version of himself. Now, that would have to be in the portion of the timeline that is incorporated in the BO section of the saga, or else Kain would have noticed something strange about himself, like the fact that he only has two fingers (maybe reading too much in here).

I too am curious as to how Vorador and Janos are back in BO2. Keep in mind though that, as stated elsewhere, at the end of SR2 Kain speaks of the Hylden as if he just learned of them. He also says before that the rippling when time is changed is "history trying to find its way around an obstruction." That sounds to me like history will try to preserve as much as possible, maybe putting in something here, a little bit there, doing what it can to sacrifice bits and pieces to save the whole. Perhaps the events of BO2 are history's way of "shuffling the cards" so that some different things come up in between Kain refusing to die and Raziel being thrown into the Abyss.

BO3 will hopefully have Kain raising the Sarafan Knights to be his liutenants, but putting that off could be a money decision.

I do have what I hope is an original idea. Remeber, in SR2, Janos says that he recognizes Raziel. There are several possibilities. One is that the Janos we see from BO2 stays around until after Kain resurects the Sarafan to follow him, then uses the time portal to go back in time (the Janos in BO2 looks much younger than the Janos in SR2). He would then recognize Raziel from having seen him resurected.

My idea, though, is that somehow Raziel is resurrected to be alive (or undead) with fully functional wings and the blue skin. Then, taking the new information that he knows about the Hylden, he goes back to the beginning of time to start a vampire race on the innocent planet. He urges the forging of the Soul Reaver, imbuing it with some of his life (thus the connection with both him and Kain, being as part of Raziel's life force came from Kain when Kain raised him). Unfortunately, that would make time a giant loop. However, as we have seen, sometimes loops can be broken. :)

BadGuysAlwaysWin
14th Jul 2002, 18:35
It's the other way around, Phildo. The Janos in SR2 looks like a young man, while the Janos in BO2 looks like he is in his late 50s. Also, we are pretty much sure that Raziel will never be whole again, as that simply doesn't go along with the rest of the world. All the characters have one tragedy, and this is Raziel's.
You also have to remember that the main character of the LoK series is Kain, not Raziel. Remember that even in SR2, everyone is urging Raziel to kill Kain, and when he doesn't, the Demons begin to appear and strive to kill him. This isn't a punishment, but rather an attempt to take out an important piece of Kain's plan. The ultimate goal isn't to kill Raziel, but to destroy Kain and his plans.
I also have a personal belief as to WHAT it is that Moebius summons to fight Kain in their battle. I actually feel that THAT is the Kain that was created in the timeline that Kain himself made when he slew William the Just.

warpsavant
14th Jul 2002, 18:48
The Kain Moebius calls from the futire is the Kain of BO2! Just look at that Armor. He looks like he is right out of BO2.


This is more proof that BO2 takes place in the "unaltered" timeline.


They should have a Havok and Malice cheat for Bo2....

Azrael
14th Jul 2002, 19:03
Posted by Phildo:
I do have what I hope is an original idea. Remeber, in SR2, Janos says that he recognizes Raziel. There are several possibilities. One is that the Janos we see from BO2 stays around until after Kain resurects the Sarafan to follow him, then uses the time portal to go back in time (the Janos in BO2 looks much younger than the Janos in SR2). He would then recognize Raziel from having seen him resurected.

Well that not bad thinked, but you forgot a few things, first Janos was thrown to the Demon Dimension, and second, "If" he would stay around until Kain ressurects the Sarafan he must have to pass some time with them just to know how they are, and doing that they should know him as well, but thats not the case in SR2 when Raz finds him...

And about the other Kain, i think Moebius summuned him from another paralel timeline, where he originally would accept the sacrifice....

warpsavant
14th Jul 2002, 22:22
Once Kain reaches the keep where Moebius is executing Vorador he will have to face off against enemies from the past the present and the future. The Repel Shield is your best bet here. The last enemy Kain will encounter is the future version of himself. He will continually attempt to attack you from behind so stay in the middle and try to anticipated his next move.



Continual attacks from behind and the armor makes me think this guy is Kain from Bo2. Not some Bo2 from an alternate timeline.

This "quote" is take from the Silicon Knights website

http://forums.eidosgames.com/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&threadid=959

Vampmaster
14th Jul 2002, 23:15
(I just read through this thread. Reave Janos soul and he's dead for good. That's what I was thinking.)

If Janos is revived in either way, SR2 could still have effected BO2. It might have been years before Janos was revived if not for Raziel. For instance, if the Hylden built and activated the mass before Kain was able to destroy it (they'd have from Kain's birth to BO2), then that would be desasterous. They could have also put him to even worse use. Your guess is as good as mine on what this would be.

Raziel can not be consumed by his own soul in the wraith blade (even coiled around the Blood Reaver) as the only possible outcome of this is the blade would shatter. All that can happen is that the wraith blade coils around the Blood Reaver, traps Raziel inside it and then uncoils. If you go back in time and kill your self from that time, then you wouldn't exist to kill you. It would make no sense. This is the same as Raz as blade consuming non blade Raz. Only Raziel as himself can enter the Blood Reaver. The wraith blade can only trap him in this seperate item that it has coiled around. Raziel is destined to be trapped in the Reaver cause he says at the end that he has only postponed this destiny.

KainSyndrome101
14th Jul 2002, 23:17
The armor Kain is wearing is just the Iron Armor. Look closely, even though the future Kain is a bit taller than the one you're playing as. Also, he has white hair, but just because he looks like he did in BO2 doesn't mean that it's unaltered. I'm pretty sure he would have looked like that anyway.

Vampmaster
14th Jul 2002, 23:22
If Raziel didn't get the heart and revive Janos, then maybe Vorador would have. got it He could have done something to delay it's effect to revive himself after Moebius had him killed. Someone else could have rived Vorador as well. Either way the events of BO2 are possible.

warpsavant
14th Jul 2002, 23:51
Originally posted by KainSyndrome101
The armor Kain is wearing is just the Iron Armor. Look closely, even though the future Kain is a bit taller than the one you're playing as. Also, he has white hair, but just because he looks like he did in BO2 doesn't mean that it's unaltered. I'm pretty sure he would have looked like that anyway.


You're right, thats why its this reason plus all the ones I used before. :D I thought the Armor looked more like the Armor Kain wears in the Sarafan Keep. :shrugs:

I understand that BO2 must be effected by the "paradox", but it's my belief that the paradox at the end of SR2 isnt the reason that Janos and Vorador are in BO2. Because the events in Bo2 are possible either way.

KainSyndrome101
15th Jul 2002, 00:06
Don't get me wrong. I'm totally not denying the possiblities of BO2 being unaltered or altered.

Yeah, it does look similar to the armor he wears in the Sarafan Keep. But his boots, and the color of his get-up are different. But hey, the first time I went to the Sarafan Keep and saw Kain in the armor, I was like, "What the - is that the Iron Armor?!" But then I saw that it was more hi-tech.

By the way, I think Janos' appearence in BO2 has nothing to do with the paradox in SR2, he would be there anyway. I only think it has a little bit to do with Vorador's appearence. So, I pretty much agree with you.

keepittrue
25th Jul 2002, 03:15
I dont know how i missed this convo but lets spark it back up.
BO2 is UNaltered timeline for many reasons. I personnaly dont agree with any of the theories here but a few were nice and some of them I never even thought of.

KainSyndrome101
26th Jul 2002, 03:58
I really don't care if it's unaltered or altered. I just hope the series ends with all questions answered(or at least most)and has a good story.

TempySmurf
26th Jul 2002, 19:33
I'm not sure what all the theories are, but from what I gathered it would seem somewhat logical that it is the altered timeline.

The end of SR2 pretty much tells you that something changed that has to do with the Hylden and that this is direct result of resurrecting Janos. Logically the event at the end of SR2 causes a shift. Who are the ones involved in the shift? Kain and Raziel. Obviously kain was suppose to be dead, but when Raziel made his decision not to kill Kain this did not cause the shift. Which allows Kain to setup Raziel for the end paradox which would appear to be exactly what the hylden want. The only person who can cause this shift is going to be Raziel. Raziel and the Soul Reaver are the only two possible suspects that will change the course of history.

So it would be logical to assume that Raziel will be the one to resurrect Janos, because he is the key. Wether he gets the heart before Kain, which would create a completely new timeline or he could travel forward in time and get the heart after kain is done with it.

Now if you go to BO2 you have Janos trapped by the hylden. This would be a direct result of Raziel resurrecting Janos in the first place. This may not be necessary, but there's always ockham's razor. Obviously, no real big changes occur to have Kain so concerned. The event could occur and Kain will still rule and still come to the same point where we start SR1 (which is why I think that there is the debate about wether it's an altered timeline in the first place... which I think is a good thing.. keep everyone guessing). However, the end of BO2 leaves us with Janos in the other deminsion. This is the key. This is where the problem occurs and this is why I think Kain is so concerned and why I think that this is part of the altered timeline. If Janos was dead, he wouldn't have been there being used by the hylden, so that he could eventually try to help Kain but instead fall into the other deminsion. My guess is that the Hylden and Janos will make a return trip.. and Janos will be completely distorted and one evil mother.... And you know he's coming back or else they wouldn't have had him fall in in the first place, not to mention both the hylden and Janos are Kain's concern at the end of SR2 and the hylden said they'd be back as well.. and why would it be Kain's concern to mention this to Raziel if he wasn't goint to be responsible for resurrecting Janos.. or creating the events that lead to his resurrection..

I think that SR3 or BO3 are Kain's concern at the end of SR2 and not BO2. The next installment will create the problem that Kain fears. Then of course Raziel still has to go back and deal with all of the other characters throughout the story and find out about the pillars and restore everything... somehow..

You also have the paintings which would suggest a time travel to the very distant past when the hylden and Janos kind were at war, although I don't think that would need to happen, it would just be fun.

I believe that Raziel resurrects Janos out of some sense of justice and loyalty (missing what Kain was trying to tell him) or by some other situation that forces or manipulates his hand and Kain resurrects Vorador earlier on when Kain hasn't figured out how to make his own vampires.

Now there's always the chance that Raziel is not the cause of the paradox in and of himself but what he did to the soul reaver. Thus the soul reaver becomes the paradox but not Raziel and changes something.. but I haven't figured out how that would play out. However, you still have the hylden statement and the Janos statement.. so I still believe that the above theories would be the most logical according to the story line thus far. Maybe I'm missing something.. specially if it has to deal with BO1 cause I haven't played that in years.. or they could always play it off in some other direction I haven't even thought of.

Anyhow... who wants to be right.. you figure it all out.. you get the game.. and you already know everything.. that's never fun... unless you're doing it while someone else is playing... hopefully they'll throw us for a twist that doesn't do something completely stupid that we won't accept.

Kain's Ancient Blade
27th Jul 2002, 00:31
I don't think BO2 is an altered timeline. Why would Kain be all " oh my god the hlyden we walked right into their trap" when he knows he kicks their a$$ anyway. The only way it could be altered is if Janos return from the demon dimesion has some major impact on things. But like some other people have said in this column it doesnt necassarily have to be Raz that revives janos. i think anyone who had the means or the motive couldve done it.


LOK series. My anti drug.

TempySmurf
27th Jul 2002, 15:15
BO2 doesn't have to be an altered timeline, but for the stories sake it would make sense. If it wasn't part of the altered timeline then the whole point of Janos falling into the other deminsion becomes pointless. That's absurd. That's like saying.. oh guess what's going to happen next.. oh wait.. nevermind.. forget that.. uh.. yeah.. so we altered the timeline and so this game never really happened.. Forget about the whole Janos other deminsion thang. That doesn't fit with the logic of the writing of the story. They like to give you hints and clues to the over all story and set you up for the next game. I could accept that if they go back in time and change everything but not for one ending of a game. The ending is suppose to leave you with what's going to happen next. You don't just forget about an ending and pretend like it never happened. You have to bring everything together. I'm sure there's a way to bring it all together and make it an unaltered timeline. I would be impressed if they could use that as an unaltered timeline and still bring it into the story. I still find it convenient that Janos and the Hlyden just happened to be in BO2 which just happens to be Kain's concern in SR2. I don't think BO2 was Kain's concern, but I think that the effects of BO2 are his concern.

Raziel has to be responsible for the resurrection of Janos. He created the shift in time by not dying. That means that he is the only one who can create the effects in the altered timeline to make it happen. He may not be the one who resurrects Janos but he will be the direct cause of it. He can do something that will enable someone else to do it, but without him being alive then it wouldn't have happened. He becomes the only thing that wasn't suppose to be there, so he has to be the cause of Janos' resurrection, then that somehow has to help out the hlyden. If you look at BO2, there is already the perfect setup for that.

Asking why Kain would say "oh my god the hlyden we walked right into their trap" could leave several possibilities. Kain could die and not know the outcome. Raziel could go back in time and create another new timeline. Kain's new old memories don't know the final outcome of the new timeline. The effects of what the hlyden do might be too drastic. Kain may not want Janos to become corrupted by the other deminsion for whatever reason, he may be a key to something or the cause of something. Or lord knows how many other possibilities..

And you know they're going to "kicks their a$$ anyway", it's a game. That's just they way things work.

keepittrue
28th Jul 2002, 10:27
Originally posted by TempySmurf
BO2 doesn't have to be an altered timeline, but for the stories sake it would make sense. If it wasn't part of the altered timeline then the whole point of Janos falling into the other deminsion becomes pointless. That's absurd. That's like saying.. oh guess what's going to happen next.. oh wait.. nevermind.. forget that.. uh.. yeah.. so we altered the timeline and so this game never really happened.. Forget about the whole Janos other deminsion thang. .

Uhh Kain closed off the gate so there is no returning for him.

TempySmurf
28th Jul 2002, 13:17
The Sarafan Lord did mention that he'd be back He also asked Janos how he'd like it if he was stuck in the other deminsion for a while. That's usually called foreshadowing. Kain may have shut the gate, but that doesn't mean there's not another way for the Sarafan Lord and Janos to get back, specially when the Sarafan Lord makes mention of that very fact.

TheElderGodofNosgoth
28th Jul 2002, 16:26
First of all T.S.L. made no mention of himself coming back, only his race. :rolleyes: Second, T.S.L. said nothing about any time period that Janos would be banished for in the Demon Demention. :rolleyes: I agree, however, that we have not seen the last of Janos. ;)

TempySmurf
28th Jul 2002, 18:50
Originally posted by TheElderGodofNosgoth
First of all T.S.L. made no mention of himself coming back, only his race. :rolleyes: Second, T.S.L. said nothing about any time period that Janos would be banished for in the Demon Demention. :rolleyes: I agree, however, that we have not seen the last of Janos. ;)

True enough.. he didn't actually mention himself.. I was kinda paraphrasing.. however the point was more of saying that he could return regardless if the gate was destroyed by kain or not.. not sure what you're trying to say about how much time janos would spend in the other deminsion.. suppose that'd be when ever he has an oppurtunity to get out..

KainSyndrome101
28th Jul 2002, 19:40
The Sarafan Lord is dead. There is no returning for him.

TheElderGodofNosgoth
28th Jul 2002, 19:43
I was just going to point that out.

TempySmurf
28th Jul 2002, 20:10
Ha!

So dead like Janos or dead like Vorador?

Honestly I don't remember if he actually fell over and died or just got defeated and fell back into the other deminsion.. assuming he just fell back into the demon deminsion.. that doesn't mean he's dead.. now I'm going to have to go play the end again and find out..

but my point is still valid.. "someone" could return from the demon deminsion.

warpsavant
28th Jul 2002, 20:25
Kain shoves a soul devouring weapon thru his chest.

KainSyndrome101
28th Jul 2002, 20:41
"I have lived long enough to dispose of you."

Then Kain rams the Soul Reaver through the Sarafan Lord's chest, and you know he's dead for good.

Wait a sec, wouldn't the Sarafan Lord's soul be in the SR with Raziel's?

TempySmurf
28th Jul 2002, 21:07
Makes you wonder what the world inside the soul reaver must be like. =P

keepittrue
28th Jul 2002, 21:59
Originally posted by KainSyndrome101
[COLOR=red

Wait a sec, wouldn't the Sarafan Lord's soul be in the SR with Raziel's?[/COLOR]

No, the SL's soul would be sucked in just like everyone else's. What would make the SL so different that he could not be ate by the SR.

Just because a character says something you cant hold that to be 100% true. ie: the sarafan lord says his race will return (which kinda backs my theory about the UNaltered timeline) but the freakin gate is closed, so no returning for them. If the SL comes back from being sucked in by the SR then that would make LoK SUCK bad.

Also what do you mean he can return from the demon world regardless if the gate is dstroyed or not? What would be the whole point in destroying it if they could return that easy.

I am not saying that there is absolutely no way of returning for Janos but really c'mon can you think of a way thats not really lame.

The Sarafan Lord:

You have won the battle, but the war between your kind and mine will never end. Our banishment in the demon dimension also ensures our immortality. One day, we shall return.
Kain:

Should your kind ever breach that place of banishment again, I will be waiting.
The Sarafan Lord: (laughing weakly)

You will not live that long.
Kain:

I have lived long enough to dispose of you.

Personally I believe the SL was talking about the time Raz kills Kain in the chapel (in the original timeline) and that somehow breaks the seal between the demon world and they take over/ravage nosgoth again. With nothing but the remains of the other Vampire clans brood the hylden would have a fight but not one they would lose.

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2002, 22:04
Did we ever think that the Hylden could penetrate the dimension again by opening another gate somewhere? I mean as long as the Pillars are still basically "dead" then the Hylden can return. There's nothing to stop them. (TSL knew this hence why he implied it in his quote).

Also, this backs one of my theories that Hash'ak'gik could have played a hand in this as well. Hash isn't affected by the Pillars. (We know this from BO1). I think this sets him up perfectly to make a future appearance in Nosgoth and perhaps (providing he and the Hylden struck up an alliance) bring the Hylden along for the ride.

At this point I will lean closer to my first theory of another gate until more evidence of Hash surfaces. :)

KainSyndrome101
29th Jul 2002, 00:18
I think the time-altering paradox at the end of SR2 may have opened another gate. The shockwaves sent out from the paradox may be similar to the ones sent out when the Pillars' were damned. I could be wrong though.

warpsavant
29th Jul 2002, 02:01
Did anyone figure out how the demons got into Nosgoth?

Umah Bloodomen
29th Jul 2002, 02:06
Lady Azimuth played a hand at bringing the demonic forces into Nosgoth in BO1.

Perhaps they too figured out how to time travel. :p


I believe Azimuth would've been alive at the time Raziel met with Ariel in SR2. (During her lament). Seeing that there has been no evidence of her age (or the ages of the other guardians with the exception that they are really old...lol) I would assume that her worshipping of Hash and her interdimensional travels would be occuring at this point as well.

**shrugs** Just a suggestion. ;)

warpsavant
29th Jul 2002, 02:23
When Raz makes Ariel cry, Azimuth and the other Gaurdians are dead. She did have a TSD, however, and Ariel said



Azimuth, not content with summoning demonic thralls, stole the Time Streaming Device in order to gather creatures from other ages as well.


The demons appeared in Nosgoth before and after the Pillars Destruction, so, maybe it is possible the Hylden use the same means as the demons to enter the world. I'm really not sure how Hylden could do this with the Pillars functioning properly, however.

Umah Bloodomen
29th Jul 2002, 02:30
Alright you got me confused...LOL.... Ariel crying to Raz at the Pillars in SR2 (about when she was being murdered and Kain was being born) Kain hadn't killed Azimuth yet. (I'm thinking that occurred in the present era not the past during William's time in BO1). He obtained the SR from Avernus in the future and traveled back to kill William.

I believe that Azimuth was alive at that time. She had to have gone mad after Ariel's death now didn't she? ;)

warpsavant
29th Jul 2002, 03:07
I think you've had too many biscuits!! :p

Umah Bloodomen
29th Jul 2002, 03:13
Originally posted by warpsavant
I think you've had too many biscuits!! :p

You indeed warped my fragile little mine yesterday when you showed me yours thats for sure. :p

warpsavant
29th Jul 2002, 03:22
Well, no more biscuits for you!

TempySmurf
31st Jul 2002, 06:18
Originally posted by keepittrue


Just because a character says something you cant hold that to be 100% true. ie: the sarafan lord says his race will return (which kinda backs my theory about the UNaltered timeline) but the freakin gate is closed, so no returning for them. If the SL comes back from being sucked in by the SR then that would make LoK SUCK bad.

Also what do you mean he can return from the demon world regardless if the gate is dstroyed or not? What would be the whole point in destroying it if they could return that easy.



I thought the point was to stop the invasion .. or basically stopping all of the hylden from returning not just a few.