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View Full Version : League Beta 6.0 steps forth from the darkness



Oghamsmith
1st Mar 2016, 15:46
Want to see how your Nosgoth skills compare to the rest of the world? Like winning profile borders, keys, in-game gear and maybe even cash prizes? Then Nosgoth Leagues are for you! Here, your skills will be put to the test as you face some of the stiffest competition to be found across the world of Nosgoth. Compare your prowess to the rest in the world via global rankings, or maybe just focus on beating your friends. That one friend who insists he could 1v1 you but never takes you up on your challenge? With Leagues, you can get a good idea of whether or not he’s blowing hot air.

During the League Beta, we are trialing different League configurations to see which work the best, and which you guys like the most; before moving into the fully live Nosgoth Leagues Season 1 (as opposed to Nosgoth Leagues Beta).

League Beta 6.0:
As the Nosgoth League Beta series has progressed, we have experimented with a wide variety of League configurations. During the last few League betas, we have begun to hone in on the format that the majority of players seem to appreciate, which is great! One suggestion that we've seen from many League players is to increase the minimum level required to compete in Nosgoth Leagues. We've taken that feedback on board and have increased the mimimum level required to enter Leagues from level 10 to level 15. That approximately doubles the playtime required to unlock access to Nosgoth Leagues. With this change in place, we will be looking to see how it impacts the Leagues throughout a season.

This season will utilise the following format:


24/7 League – There are no limitations to League play times, compete whenever you want!
Minimum Level 15 - Players must be at least level 15 to access Nosgoth Leagues
4v4 – While 5v5 TDM was very warmly received, 4v4 is where the heart of competitive Nosgoth lays.
Max Party Size 2 – Grab a friend and jump onto the battlefield
1 Month Duration – Season 6.0 will last for approximately 1 month - Starting on March 1st and running until the 31st of March (inclusive)
Age – Not for little Humans: As Nosgoth is a mature game, participants must of course be at least 18 years of age to play and compete.
Terms and Conditions - You can check out the Terms & Conditions HERE, you must agree to these terms in-game in order to be eligible for prizing.


The Spoils of War
Featuring a new $10,000 prize pool for the season, League Beta 6.0 retains the same prize structure as seasons gone by. Whether you want to climb to the mightiest heights of the Eternal tier, or simply fight through the Leagues while having a good time with friends, we've got you covered. Cash prizing will be distributed in the following fashion:

This season’s Blood tier prize is an exclusive Nosgoth Leagues variant of the base Tyrant's Armour skin. These most devoted of Tyrants have demonstrated their dedication to high skilled compeition by permanently marking themselves with a Nosgoth Leagues symbol on the right side of their chest. Should you make it into the Blood tier or above, you too will have irrefutable proof of your hard earned exploit.


Join the fight today!
Signing up to the League is as simple as loading up Nosgoth, getting to at least level 15; and agreeing to the League Terms and Conditions (if you haven’t done so during previous League Beta seasons). With that done, you’ll want to jump into League matches to start racking up those points and climbing the leaderboard.

We know you guys are likely eager to see the Nosgoth Leagues Tryant, we're working hard to get a picture of him to you early next week. In the meantime, we would love to know whether or not you're happy to see an increase to the minimum required level to participate in Leagues? Let us know below!

FAQ
How will monetary prizes be delivered?

PayPal will be the primary method, although those who cannot use PayPal will be able to provide us with your bank account details.

We’re working in conjunction with the fine folks over at ESL to get the monetary prizes to the top 100 players. You’ll receive an email from Square Enix once the season is over with further steps to take.

When will I receive my prize?
All in-game prizing is typically delivered approximately a week after the season ends.

Cash prizes take approximately one and a half months to deliver. This is to provide ESL with enough time to contact you for the account details into which your winnings will be sent, and the processing of the payments to take place.

Where is Sonic Boom, my League Beat 4.0 prize?
Sonic Boom will be released alongside Nosgoth's next game update :)!

What about my beautiful golden Beastermaster shotgun?
That will be delivered to your inventory as soon as the Beastmaster is released.

BZiGER
1st Mar 2016, 15:51
OMG so soon ??

Vampmaster
1st Mar 2016, 16:03
How come the the humans get awesome bloody survivor skins, but vampires only get colour variants? :( Virtually all the Tyrant skins are recolours. Is it due to to most of the 3D artists working on other classes? Will you look into new vampire meshes after the Beastmaster and new vampire class are out of the way?

+1 about starting a league so soon. We needed a break! I wanted to play flashpoint/CTB play with my friends instead of getting raged at by players I have no business being matched with.

Da_Wolv
1st Mar 2016, 16:07
NO!
REMOVE THIS
NOW!

Have you not listened to anything we said about League? I hate the fact that it even exists, but if it HAS TO, WHY NOT ACTUALLY USE THE FEEDBACK AND DEVELOP IT?
You just make us jump through the same broken hoop each month.

And you are asking yourself, why there is so much negativity here.
We are screaming at you each time, and you just stuff bananas in your ears and ignore everything we say.
Thanks a lot.
If not for ESL (which you don't seem to support either), I'd have left this game half a year ago...

HexMee
1st Mar 2016, 16:14
https://media.giphy.com/media/1M9fmo1WAFVK0/giphy.gif

Seriously stooooooooooooooop with the leagues D:

Atleast give us a moment to rest and steel ourselves for another month of flagellation

Vampmaster
1st Mar 2016, 16:19
^^What this guy said!

Henniuss
1st Mar 2016, 16:25
Agreed with all of the above...
Seriously, it has been 6 hours between league seasons, with no sign of anything else to do on top! I'd welcome a week or two of having capture the body, or flashpoint, or even something new, instead of the non-stop league grind.
Before anyone says league is optional, the fact that the majority of players get dragged in to league also affects the playerbase for non-league players in the only alternative to league... TDM!!! Which essentially is more of the same.

Please please please, some variation, and sign that the game is expanding and fleshing itself out, not flogging the bones of the dead horse! However I would concede some of my attitude, if there happens to be a good reason for this rush!

Da_Wolv
1st Mar 2016, 16:33
Before anyone says league is optional, the fact that the majority of players get dragged in to league also affects the playerbase for non-league players in the only alternative to league... TDM!!!


I was so looking forward to fun games... I guess nope

Sasha_Vykos
1st Mar 2016, 16:42
wow... Imo the league is bad in every signle aspect (and i won money in every league but still i would like to see removed all the cash for league).. people are 10x time more toxic, its so difficoult to find scrims, games are less funny. But if you want to play the game you are basically forced to play league. But you already had tons of feedback about it and you took your decision already.

We needed at least a break from this.

Da_Wolv
1st Mar 2016, 16:59
But if you want to play the game you are basically forced to play league.

Except you are a well known ESL Player and streamer... then everyone just dodges you that is good enough to be in your MMR range and actually be matched against you.
I know, its the first time you receive this feedback.. maybe if you have a minute.. get on that..
or.. y'know... just remove this abomination of a **** mode?
Whenever you're ready.. no rush

Nurgor
1st Mar 2016, 17:04
League Beta 6.0 steps forth from the darkness...where it should have stayed...
U guys are making the same mistakes over and over again, not listening to the community!
The old grind/frustration game just stopped and everyone was hoping for fun TDM rounds, but no! U guys needed to start the new season right away... also an increase of 5 level for minimum level required to join leagues? what the? u think 5 lvls will keep the feeding newbies away? nope...
another thing, if u give out special prices like skins, dont make them damn reskins of skins we already have! What reason is there to grind away hours of frustration for such a low price?
rly disappointing...

Vampmaster
1st Mar 2016, 17:07
omg -_- I don't even know what to say about this. Imo the league for me is bad in every signle aspect (and i won money in every league bnut still i would like to see removed all the cash for league).. people are 10x time more toxic, its so difficoult to find scrims, games are less funny. But if you want to play the game you are basically forced to play league. But you already had tons of feedback about it and you took your decision already.

We needed at least a break from this.

I actually think leagues should only have cash/runestone rewards and the in game prizes should be for monthly challenges in other modes. The players who rage most are the ones most used to playing for cash in extremely high level of skill and only get mad when casuals try to join in. However casuals know they don't have a chance of winning the cash, so they wouldn't bother with league if not for the in game prizes. It's better to encourage elites to play league and everyone else to stick to ordinary matches.

**For the purposes of this post I'm using casual to refer to anyone who doesn't normally reach the top of leaderboards or compete in professional tournaments.**

itsRagnaros
1st Mar 2016, 17:11
Hey, if you guys are so generous as to keep this league thing going on, why not just take a break, and throw that money in ESL competitive play. Maybe it will grow...

Da_Wolv
1st Mar 2016, 17:21
The players who rage most are the ones most used to playing for cash in extremely high level of skill and only get mad when casuals try to join in. However casuals know they don't have a chance of winning the cash, so they wouldn't bother with league if not for the in game prizes.

If they wanted that, there is an App for that! It#s called ESL
Hell, they could just invent their own League.
not this ingame League garbage.


Hey, if you guys are so generous as to keep this league thing going on, why not just take a break, and throw that money in ESL competitive play. Maybe it will grow...
Exactly.

Vampmaster
1st Mar 2016, 17:35
If they wanted that, there is an App for that! It#s called ESL
Hell, they could just invent their own League.
not this ingame League garbage.

They should play ESL. I'm not sure why they don't. Maybe it's not advertised well enough or not on often enough or they can't get a regular team together or assume the sign up process is too complicated or maybe they just think they're better than they are. I've never looked any of this stuff up because I know I'm not good enough to compete at that level. I think league would be better off modeled on something closer to ESL anyway.

Captain3009
1st Mar 2016, 17:55
NOOOOOOOOO, not league again.

I WANT FP or CTB BACK. PFFFFF. :mad:

TheDreamcrusher
1st Mar 2016, 18:11
Want to see how your free time compares to the rest of the world? Like grinding profile borders, keys, in-game gear and maybe even cash prizes? Then Nosgoth Leagues are for you! Here, your patience will be put to the test as you face quitters, crashes, disconnects, failure to reconnect to league matches, and some of the greenest and stacked competition to be found across the world of Nosgoth. Compare your queue dodging prowess to the rest in the world via Steam players in-game, or maybe just focus on beating that one guy who goes AFK every match but doesn't seem to get kicked or banned. That one guy who insists he could 1v1 you but never takes you up on your challenge? With Leagues, you can get a good idea of how much smack he'll talk when he's 3 and 10.

During the League Beta, we are trialing different League configurations to see which work the best, and which you guys like the most; before moving into the fully live Nosgoth Leagues Season 1 (as opposed to Nosgoth Leagues Beta).

League Beta 6.0:
As the Nosgoth League Beta series has progressed, we have experimented with a wide variety of League configurations. During the last few League betas, we have begun to hone in on the format that the majority of players seem to appreciate, which is great! One suggestion that we've seen from many League players is to increase the minimum level required to compete in Nosgoth Leagues. We've taken that feedback on board and have increased the minimum level required to enter Leagues from level 10 to level 15. That approximately doubles the playtime required to unlock access to Nosgoth Leagues. With this change in place, we will be looking to see how it impacts the Leagues throughout a season.

This season will utilize the following format:


24/7 League – There are no limitations to League play times, compete whenever you want! Grind to your hearts content!
Minimum Level 15 - Players must be at least level 15 to access Nosgoth Leagues, just enough time to think about setting up new key bindings.
4v4 – While 5v5 TDM was very warmly received, 4v4 is where the heart of competitive Nosgoth lays.
Max Party Size 2 – Grab a friend, jump onto the battlefield, and get weighted down by matchmaking rating determining it's your turn to lose the match.
1 Month Duration – Season 6.0 will last for approximately 1 month - Starting on March 1st and running until the 31st of March (inclusive). 400 to 700 matches is the recommended number to play to be at the top of Eternal.
Age – Not for little Humans: As Nosgoth is a mature game, participants must of course be at least 18 years of age to play and compete. Adults are welcome to engage in toxic and team crippling behavior, as long as YOU DON'T EXIT MATCHES, unless you exit a match and rejoin. Then everyone is free to bail with a minimum point loss.
Terms and Conditions - You can check out the Terms & Conditions HERE, you must agree to these terms in-game in order to be eligible for prizing.


The Spoils of War
Featuring a new $10,000 prize pool for the season, League Beta 6.0 retains the same prize structure as seasons gone by. Whether you want to climb to the mightiest heights of the Eternal tier, or simply fight through the Leagues while having a good time with friends, we've got you covered. Cash prizing will be distributed in the following fashion:

This season’s Blood tier prize is an exclusive Nosgoth Leagues variant of the base Tyrant's Armour skin. These most devoted of Tyrants have demonstrated their dedication to high skilled compeition by permanently marking themselves with a Nosgoth Leagues symbol on the right side of their chest. Should you make it into the Blood tier or above, you too will have irrefutable proof of your hard earned exploit.


Join the fight today!
Signing up to the League is as simple as loading up Nosgoth, getting to at least level 15; and agreeing to the League Terms and Conditions (if you haven’t done so during previous League Beta seasons). With that done, you’ll want to jump into League matches to start racking up those points and climbing the leaderboard.

We know you guys are likely eager to see the Nosgoth Leagues Tryant, we're working hard to get a picture of him to you early next week. In the meantime, we would love to know whether or not you're happy to see an increase to the minimum required level to participate in Leagues? Let us know below!

League Beta 7.0
League Beta 7.0 will begin within 2 - 3 hours of the closing of League Beta 6.0. At that time, we'll be running an Easter even with a chance to find Colored Chests as loot after the end of a match in TDM or Leagues. These chests will contain one furry-suited version of each human class, a pastel skin of each vampire class, and weapons and specials with a brand new rainbow effect! They can be opened with Marshmallow Keys bought from the store.

HexMee
1st Mar 2016, 18:19
The sadest and funniest satire I've seen for quite a while, that said I would actually love the rainbow themed chests with marshmallow keys and would buy a stupid amount of em xD

River_
1st Mar 2016, 18:42
Okay, I am going to add my voice to that of the ENTIRE COMMUNITY!

Do not do this league. Please. Just blow it off right now. Why?

We need a break from league. It is toxic as *****, and the only reason (for me) to play it is to get nice league prices.
But the league price is not even nice this time... Really, from what I can read it is literally just the base tyrant skin with a tattoo..
Where did the sweet bloody survivor skins go? The creative shield? Hell, even a ancient vampire skin would be nice. But ever since 2 seasons ago you guys got ******** lazy, with just an fx and a golden reskin... Really?

Don't get me wrong. The only reason I am mad is because I care. I want to have something to fight for, I want to have a challenge getting high in blood. But this is just not worth it!


So to sum up some points:

-Good job on the level increase. Keep it going, I'll be happy when the cap is lvl 35.
-Find a way so that point distribution is fair. This has been said since league 2-3, and if your team is bad, you still suffer from it.
-To continue with the point above: Why the hell do high-ranked players lose way more than they gain? I get that people should keep winning in order to gain points, but losing 4 points for one loss while only gaining +1 for a win? Nope...
-Give us a break inbetween leagues. Really, ranked is not fun. At all.. So give us something more 'casual' inbetween those (ctb or cp would work perfectly here)
-Make prizes actually worth winning. No repaints, no 'Nosgoths league symbol', we want a nice, cool new skin.
-About prizes worth winning: Increase the amount of keys given by 5 times. 2-3 keys are pretty useless, considering 85% of the time you only get 'a epic uncanny item, wow!'
-I do want to say nice job on keeping the 2 man party, that is one of the few good things about league.

Now, take this league season down before it starts, and start working on the points I and others mentioned, before league becomes a joke... (which it kinda already is)

http://i.imgur.com/Ak5gbgm.png

A week guys!

teatowls
1st Mar 2016, 19:08
I'm not one for posting comments on the forums but I just wanted to show my reaction to this season:


NO GOD PLEASE NO!


Everyone was looking forwards to a break from leagues so we could play some games that are actually fun instead of needing to grind a stupid amount of games to get into blood or eternal. Stop shoving ranked at us, take the time to make the changes we've been asking for ever since leagues was first introduces, remove the cash prizes from a BETA and then maybe it won't be so hell-ish.

Seriously. No. Give us a break from hell instead pls.

charles949
1st Mar 2016, 19:18
How come the the humans get awesome bloody survivor skins, but vampires only get colour variants? :( Virtually all the Tyrant skins are recolours. Is it due to to most of the 3D artists working on other classes? Will you look into new vampire meshes after the Beastmaster and new vampire class are out of the way?

+1 about starting a league so soon. We needed a break! I wanted to play flashpoint/CTB play with my friends instead of getting raged at by players I have no business being matched with.

Where did you see the tyrant?

Nurgor
1st Mar 2016, 19:20
Psyonix, Square Enix, u see how the WHOLE community doesnt want league to come back for AT LEAST a month? pls, now u have the time and opportunity to prove us that you can read and respect our opinion, cancel this league right now!
Dont wait a week to read our comments on this grindhell, do something now, end the tormenting now! while its not too late...

kLauE187
1st Mar 2016, 19:22
no one is forced to play ranked. and to believe they fix anything broken is kinda stubborn when almost nothing changed in 8 or 9 seasons if you count the alpha ones too :lol:

Da_Wolv
1st Mar 2016, 19:43
no one is forced to play ranked.
You're not forced to, yes, but I don't agree with that sentiment.
The matchmaking takes long enough already, splitting the pool doesn't make it easier.
This means if you want to play at all in a reasonable timeframe, you have to play ranked.
That means, you have to put up with unbalanced teams and, as is part of human nature, eventhough you despise it, losing and not getting to the prizes - even if you don't care about them - is annoying.

What annoys me most, to be honest, is the discrepancy of prizes between ESL and Ranked.
I'm not saying I wan't to get payed for playing my favorite game. What I am baffled by, however, is that I earned more money in one excruiciatingly painful month than during the 1 1/2 years I played ESL.
There's something about that that makes me cringe.

GenFeelGood
1st Mar 2016, 20:08
I'll hold off judgement til I have seen the skin; but why the base skin, this has to be third time it's been altered? Make one with the alternate skins like the gilded colossus or Imperial guard, anything other than the same skin over and over again.

Vampmaster
1st Mar 2016, 20:19
Where did you see the tyrant?

I didn't see it. Oghamsmith said in the original post that it was recoloring of the default skin. That's enough information to imagine what it will look like.

seko003
1st Mar 2016, 20:46
No ty.

Zarxiel93
1st Mar 2016, 21:00
O GOD NO! I HATE LEAGUE!!! AND I'M A COLLECTOR!! This mean I'm FORCED to play this again for the new Turelim skin.
And PLEASE told to me the "Easter Chests" is only a dumb joke, PLEASE was an HELL to take the Bloody Survivor in the Halloween event, NOW YOU WANT RELEASE 10/11/12 SKINS? I HATE YOU SO MUCH!!!

Instead of thinking of this dumb things, why you don't focus in the Beastmaster and Rahabim classes?

And another thing, we all said to you we WANT the Trade system, and you say it is not in program because you must think in most important content. THE EASTER CHESTS IS MORE IMPORTANT? Really? The people HATE! The chests, I don't know if you understand it, but they HATE THEM! So please STOP DOING THIS ****!

Zarxiel93
1st Mar 2016, 21:11
no one is forced to play ranked. and to believe they fix anything broken is kinda stubborn when almost nothing changed in 8 or 9 seasons if you count the alpha ones too :lol:

Well, consider the league have an exclusive reward. I'm a collector, so I'm forced to make it, or I will not gain that skin.

Wolf_the_Legend
1st Mar 2016, 21:11
THE EASTER CHESTS IS MORE IMPORTANT? Really?

:D

Vampmaster
1st Mar 2016, 21:26
O GOD NO! I HATE LEAGUE!!! AND I'M A COLLECTOR!! This mean I'm FORCED to play this again for the new Turelim skin.
And PLEASE told to me the "Easter Chests" is only a dumb joke, PLEASE was an HELL to take the Bloody Survivor in the Halloween event, NOW YOU WANT RELEASE 10/11/12 SKINS? I HATE YOU SO MUCH!!!

Instead of thinking of this dumb things, why you don't focus in the Beastmaster and Rahabim classes?

And another thing, we all said to you we WANT the Trade system, and you say it is not in program because you must think in most important content. THE EASTER CHESTS IS MORE IMPORTANT? Really? The people HATE! The chests, I don't know if you understand it, but they HATE THEM! So please STOP DOING THIS ****!

Yes, easter chests are a dumb joke. TheDreamCrusher posted a parody version of the original post. They weren't in the real one.

Zarxiel93
1st Mar 2016, 21:34
Yes, easter chests are a dumb joke. TheDreamCrusher posted a parody version of the original post. They weren't in the real one.

Thanks to God... at least a good new.
But yhea, please waith a month, I was so happy when reached Blood, I said "now I can take a LONG pause" and you post this? Please show that you care about the community and cancell the league 6.0 until april at least.

Da_Wolv
1st Mar 2016, 21:49
Hey Psyonix,
just in case you were wondering if the League was well received:


OMG so soon ??



We needed a break! I wanted to play flashpoint/CTB play with my friends instead of getting raged at by players I have no business being matched with.


NO!
REMOVE THIS
NOW!



Seriously stooooooooooooooop with the leagues D:
Atleast give us a moment to rest and steel ourselves for another month of flagellation



Please please please, some variation, and sign that the game is expanding and fleshing itself out, not flogging the bones of the dead horse!


wow... Imo the league is bad in every signle aspect (and i won money in every league but still i would like to see removed all the cash for league).. people are 10x time more toxic, its so difficoult to find scrims, games are less fun


League Beta 6.0 steps forth from the darkness...where it should have stayed...
U guys are making the same mistakes over and over again, not listening to the community!



Hey, if you guys are so generous as to keep this league thing going on, why not just take a break, and throw that money in ESL competitive play. Maybe it will grow...


NOOOOOOOOO, not league again.


Okay, I am going to add my voice to that of the ENTIRE COMMUNITY!

Do not do this league. Please. Just blow it off right now. Why?




NO GOD PLEASE NO!

Everyone was looking forwards to a break from leagues so we could play some games that are actually fun instead of needing to grind a stupid amount of games to get into blood or eternal. Stop shoving ranked at us, take the time to make the changes we've been asking for ever since leagues was first introduces, remove the cash prizes from a BETA and then maybe it won't be so hell-ish..


Psyonix, Square Enix, u see how the WHOLE community doesnt want league to come back for AT LEAST a month? pls, now u have the time and opportunity to prove us that you can read and respect our opinion, cancel this league right now!


O GOD NO! I HATE LEAGUE!!! AND I'M A COLLECTOR!! This mean I'm FORCED to play this again for the new Turelim skin.

Shocking...
This is the first time I ever hear anyone complain about Ranked.. it's such a solid, well rounded and fun mode - not to mention all those carrots dangling around - delicious.

And the best part is, you keep talking to us all the time about it and adress our concerns. So nice of you.
Keep it up

#Sarcasm #BurnTheMoney

Duflux
1st Mar 2016, 23:38
Hi,

Yeah i got to agree with everyone else. Please stop the league, give us a break plz!!!

Where is the hype of a new league starting in the next week or two, now its just solid wall to wall leagues really??? T

Thats no fun and your reward for this league is a skin we already have but with a tattoo that noone will notice in the arena... seriously? Well done, almost as good as a gold skinned gun for the beatmaster... it feels like you devs are losing the will to live..

I love Nosgoth, I love the Lore, but you guys are killing us out here.

Thanks for reading.

Vampmaster
1st Mar 2016, 23:49
Hi,

Yeah i got to agree with everyone else. Please stop the league, give us a break plz!!!

Where is the hype of a new league starting in the next week or two, now its just solid wall to wall leagues really??? T

Thats no fun and your reward for this league is a skin we already have but with a tattoo that noone will notice in the arena... seriously? Well done, almost as good as a gold skinned gun for the beatmaster... it feels like you devs are losing the will to live..

I love Nosgoth, I love the Lore, but you guys are killing us out here.

Thanks for reading.

Tattoos should just be like decals or something that you can swap about onto your favourite skins. Use the tyrant's version of the shield slot.

senjuj
2nd Mar 2016, 02:36
:mad2:
nosgoth. nosgoth never changes.
skins, keys, runestones etc are good for solo random league with good personal points system (almost classical dm).
if you wanna teamplay (brrr) and cash then go in esl. at least there fair teamplay.

Farnbeak
2nd Mar 2016, 06:51
Every time they do this... Again and again its the same. I feel totally numb since November I think when all the possible relevant feedback has been collected and nothing has changed since then, not even planned to be changed (only lobbydodging will get fixed - when launcher is finished? ok, half a year waiting is fine)

The devs just keep squeezing us for data:



During the League Beta, we are trialing different League configurations to see which work the best, and which you guys like the most; before moving into the fully live Nosgoth Leagues Season 1 (as opposed to Nosgoth Leagues Beta).

If its some sort of necessary evil, then what are we actually testing here? The rule set is absolutely the same as in the previous month, except the 5 level difference for entry. I truthfully cannot imagine a less significant change to offer for another whole month of league.
I believe the data the devs collect will be affected by stronger and more significant factors such as the different reward, the BM release and, more importantly, the player exhaustion we clearly witness here. So that data will barely be useful anyway, unless its the player tolerance they measure :gamer:

Even numb I'm still amazed they push the new league into the BM release despite all the people asking for league results not being interferred with it. Maybe the devs realistically see BM not getting its release before the end of 6.0? :whistle:

I really really wish the development of this game turns its face to the community sometime and will build its value upon feedback. One can only dream of things like this Feedback form (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Atp0MEuKLdUWL84DD91sGXeOQquFV6wnCahK_oI0yGg/viewform) (its an example from Paladins game) I'm quite sure its a very valuable and easy tool Nosgoth could use, when it will be ready to act upon that feedback of course. And that is still not now, sadly.

Da_Wolv
2nd Mar 2016, 08:36
I really really wish the development of this game turns its face to the community sometime and will build its value upon feedback. One can only dream of things like this Feedback form (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Atp0MEuKLdUWL84DD91sGXeOQquFV6wnCahK_oI0yGg/viewform) (its an example from Paladins game) I'm quite sure its a very valuable and easy tool Nosgoth could use, when it will be ready to act upon that feedback of course. And that is still not now, sadly.

If there is one thing they have repeatedly shown to be true, it is that they don't give a damn about our Feedback and will ignore the outcries on the forum for as long as it takes. Last week, Oghamsmith asked the top ESL teams to fill out a balance Feedback report.. notice its just about balance!
While this game needs some minor tweaking here and there, I am actually quite happy with the balance for the most part.
Nothing is SOOO OP that you simply have to play it all the time (at least class-wise) and some classes even have multiple viable builds.

No, if the game needs improving, then in ALL of the other Areas:
WTF is this Inventory? Everything is an item in this game, eventhough it doesn't need to be.
The Forge is a joke - you can never really get what you want and just waste resources.
Exotic Items - Still not tradable and useless, cluttering the Inventory even more

And last but not least:
A dedicated 2-man mode (in a 4-man team game), that encourages dodging lobbies, being toxic and furthers frustration by dangling an unwanted amount of cash in front of the playerbase, obtained simply by grinding with only limited control over how many and if at all you get any points.

So for the last ******* time:
Steps to improve ranked:
- Make Lobby dodging impossible.
- Create a better algorithm for determining league point loss/gain, which is dependant on match score (and/or personal performance.)
- Reduce or REMOVE the cash prizes and replace them with Runestones and more items.

Alternatively, I have already given thourough feedback and a better suggestion (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=160758) on how to tackle Leagues, and make it a real competitive environment, not the farce as it is now.

And here's a crazy thought:
Maybe when the community is unilatteraly screaming at you for something, maybe not ignore it for half a year and do whatever regardless - that could be cool.
Just saying.

SirSleepALot
2nd Mar 2016, 11:14
And I'm here like.

https://media.giphy.com/media/D3h9cIh3fyrAs/giphy.gif

--Ram--
2nd Mar 2016, 11:24
For a second I thought I might have to make myself play this league since tyrant stuff is the reward. But then I read that it is just ANOTHER recolor of the **** default skin. Super lame dudes, just like leagues in general. Just reflecting that leagues are in fact the reason I stopped playing this game, regular games are much more fun - pls make leagues die.

RainaAudron
2nd Mar 2016, 12:53
Want to see how your free time compares to the rest of the world? Like grinding profile borders, keys, in-game gear and maybe even cash prizes? Then Nosgoth Leagues are for you! Here, your patience will be put to the test as you face quitters, crashes, disconnects, failure to reconnect to league matches, and some of the greenest and stacked competition to be found across the world of Nosgoth. Compare your queue dodging prowess to the rest in the world via Steam players in-game, or maybe just focus on beating that one guy who goes AFK every match but doesn't seem to get kicked or banned. That one guy who insists he could 1v1 you but never takes you up on your challenge? With Leagues, you can get a good idea of how much smack he'll talk when he's 3 and 10.

...

Haha, that caught me off guard, but it is the sad truth about all this. Really not happy about league 6 being already underway, feel burnt out a little by the last one and having like a week or two of some other modes to play would be much more welcome. I do enjoy playing leagues (mostly) but sometimes you just need a break :p

lol at SirSleepALot xDD

HexMee
2nd Mar 2016, 13:09
almost 24 hours since this post started with ONLY negative feedback about anything in it, and still not a peep from anyone in charge...

Grisamentum
2nd Mar 2016, 13:18
The blood tier prize is just a recolouring of the default Tyrant skin? No disrespect but there's already the daily reward palette swap of the default & the marked skin is the default aswell. Why not do the platemail instead? Or that Sentinel skin called Dark Angel's Carapace? You could make the orange bits a dark grey, the gold bits red & the turquoise bits black. That would be awesome.

Guilhermera120
2nd Mar 2016, 13:31
I never post on the forums but this is getting serious.
First of all take the leagues off already because as almost everyone in this thread already said, for now leagues are the worst thing you can do to Nosgoth. Also what the hell is wrong with the league points? I even sent you guys an e-mail (which you did respond) talking about my last games of the League Beta 5.0 that were supposed to get me to Blood since I don't have that much time to play, but then I do 3 or 4 amazing wins which only gave me 4, 6, 8 and 12 points (if I am not mistaken) which prevented me to get the prize that I punished myself into getting by playing leagues. So if you aren't going to do anything besides saying sorry to make it up to me, please prevent it to happen to future players by taking leagues off and fixing problems such as this one.
Thank you for reading

RainaAudron
2nd Mar 2016, 13:38
Just a warning, breaking the ToU by swearing will not get your response, so please refrain from that. I get your frustrations, but this is not the way to get the attention.

SirSleepALot
2nd Mar 2016, 13:41
almost 24 hours since this post started with ONLY negative feedback about anything in it, and still not a peep from anyone in charge...

*achem* http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=186616&p=2201056#post2201056

HexMee
2nd Mar 2016, 13:43
Just a warning, breaking the ToU by swearing will not get your response, so please refrain from that. I get your frustrations, but this is not the way to get the attention.

YOU DON'T SAY??????

What choice do we have though? The entire crew over at the office might have been assassinated and it wouldn't make any difference whatsoever from our point of view because they're being dead quiet anyway, pun sort-of intended.
Atleast this way something happens to validate our screams for attention.


*achem* http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=186616&p=2201056#post2201056

Literally says you agree with people on forum, and therefor share their views.
And i'm pretty sure you just enjoy nosgoth, not ranked specifically, I do too.

RainaAudron
2nd Mar 2016, 13:48
YOU DON'T SAY??????

What choice do we have though? The entire crew over at the office might have been assassinated and it wouldn't make any difference whatsoever from our point of view because they're being dead quiet anyway, pun sort-of intended.
Atleast this way something happens to validate our screams for attention.

You have the choice to obey the rules. If you do not get a reply right away, it does not mean the moderators are not watching.

Da_Wolv
2nd Mar 2016, 13:53
You have the choice to obey the rules. If you do not get a reply right away, it does not mean the moderators are not watching.
No offense Raina, but we dont care about the moderators.
They dont have any information anyway.

And frankly, why should I care if I get banned from the forums, if the only thing on here is just silence and yelling against a wall?

RainaAudron
2nd Mar 2016, 13:55
It´s not about if you care about us or not, moderators will always intervene if there are any rules broken, regardless of the reason for breaking.

River_
2nd Mar 2016, 14:09
It´s not about if you care about us or not, moderators will always intervene if there are any rules broken, regardless of the reason for breaking.

Okay, we get your point. Excuse me for swearing in my previous post, but it really just came as quite the shock. However, I do think we made our point: We do not want this league season now.

So without cursing/yelling/screaming any further, can we get this done? Because if they will take a week to respond, I can pretty much predict they will be like: Ooh, but a lot of people already got some points, we can not blow this off now.

Pretty please, a fast (official) response now would be nice.

Bone_Shredder
2nd Mar 2016, 14:17
Stop the leagues now, please. I have been grinding whole month on the last league. And I need a little break from it. It's a toxic place where you are being flamed by novices for bad carry. Good players flaming novices for being bad(me too sometimes). A lot of bugs from I lose points for nothing, which is annoying as hell. Please give me a little break. Delay this league.Reward isn't worth this time in the league, just recolored tyrant skin... Are you kidding me? Please make a better proposal for the players on this league and time to get rest from previous league. It's not CoD, this game ain't easy to play. So any ranked takes a lot of effort from player. Repeating once more STOP this RANKED.

eldavimost
2nd Mar 2016, 14:32
It is quite interesting that the community is throwing all this feedback. I might understand that the developers are quite busy with all the new stuff and removing the bugs from the game, but Psyonix/Square Enix should hire more people to look into the community feedback and/or establish quick and effective communication channels with the product managers and developers to react to all this feedback as soon and best as possible. Otherwise, many players will continue leaving Nosgoth.

I think leagues are important for Nosgoth, as the rewards are normally a good reason for players for coming back to the game and spending more time on it, thus incrementing the players' pool. And of course that is good for the game because decreases the time to find a match and you have more chances to get a more balanced game.

You can see a common word in almost all the negative feedback about the leagues: people grinding points like there was no tomorrow. And yes, there is a solution for this: something like the points pool that existed before, and after you have won X league games in the same day you do not obtain that many points with each win. This way you assure that the people come back to play every day, but also balance that people with 300 matches and 30% winrate are in higher positions than people with 70% winrate and 100 matches.

After that, the big problem is people having a bad time playing and raging about having bad teammates and thus losing points. The big issue is the scoring system. The score should not be just based on wins/losses, we are talking about a game in which cooperation IS KEY, so that should be taken into account in the score. Instead of just takedowns/damage, the score should be also weighted on how good you are using your class+loadout and what you achieve with it e.g. let's say I am a prophet and I save one guy from a vampire with a hex, and save another guy with a shield, thanks to that they are able to kill those 2 vampires which I also left with half health. I think that should have much more score than them just hiting those vampires a couple of times after being abducted and saved by a shield; However, they will have a higher score than me and I will be at the bottom of the team score. An scout with warbow would benefit much more the team hiting the knockdown arrow than chiping a vampire about half health, etc. . So if the leagues scoring system was a bit more based on this than random wins/losses that depend a lot on who you are paired with (let's face it, there are many times that it doesn't matter how good you are, you just can't carry a guy with 2/15 and 4k damage in the whole match if your teammates are not as skilled as the opponents or if the other team is decent), there will be no raging, but people actually trying to hit those bolas/hexes/knockdowns/abducts/etc which are the important thing and might change the curse of a game instead of just people running around emptying their crossbows trying to get one more kill.

I understand this would take a long time until developed, but at least take into account this case: Losing a match in which you had bad teammates but still you have one of the best scores in game (including the players of the winning team) should not substract points from you, or at least substract less points than the teammates that weren't able to help to make the win.

Edit: After writing all of this I see it complements what Da_Wolv said here about the points algorithm: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=186616&p=2201051#post2201051

Ysanoire
2nd Mar 2016, 14:35
And I'm here like.

https://media.giphy.com/media/D3h9cIh3fyrAs/giphy.gif

I find that sort of relatable. XD

To be completely honest, my experience in ranked has been, for the most part, exactly the same as normal TDM. There's some toxicity, but there always is, even in casual. The annoying parts of ranked which is mostly bad matchmaking is still bad in normal TDM. At the end of the day, you really don't have to grind to the top. Let other people get the monies. For the blood reward I personally needed 50-60 games depending on season, which I don't actually think is that unreasonable.

However, all the feedback is valid. Cash prizes are unnecessary, matchmaking is bad, point distribution is not transparent and feels unfair at times. Crashes and disconnects are too frequent. And yes, we could do with a break during which some variety could be introduced. Remember Flashpoint? Heard of it from your gran? Yeah, I'd play that for a change.

I wouldn't call for leagues to be discontinued though, that's too much.

crutchie
2nd Mar 2016, 14:40
I thought about this last night. I didn't check any dev responses yet. But they probably put the league out so quickly so they don't patch it in the middle. With a drastic change like a probably over tuned beastmaster coming out in the middle of the league with cash and prizes on the line, there would be a massive backlash. The other option would be to delay the league until after the patch which would not only delay leagues but also involve an untested human character (again probably overtuned.)They went with the easiest option for us. Put out league without many changes, gave them time to update the patch, and give us plenty of time to test and whine about the beast master after. A week in between leagues would only delay content to us.

Vampmaster
2nd Mar 2016, 14:48
@SirSleepALot @Ysanoire, I think most of us just play for the prizes, not for the pleasure of grinding through endless mismatched games where we either get flamed by toxic players or completely pulverized if everybody hasn't quit before it got to that stage.

River_
2nd Mar 2016, 15:03
They went with the easiest option for us. Put out league without many changes, gave them time to update the patch, and give us plenty of time to test and whine about the beast master after. A week in between leagues would only delay content to us.

Yeah, but this is exactly why they should wait for longer than a week. They said themselves that adjusting to the new meta would take about 2 weeks. So release the update early in March, give us the entire month to re-make the Meta, and THEN put out league. We all seriously could do with a month of casual-ness. And if they want to give us something special to do, then put out either of the 2 developing gamemodes. We do not care that they are unbalanced (yet), because it is fun! So then a possibly OP BM will not be a problem as well.

senjuj
2nd Mar 2016, 15:06
The score should not be just based on wins/losses, we are talking about a game in which cooperation IS KEY, so that should be taken into account in the score. Instead of just takedowns/damage, the score should be also weighted on how good you are using your class+loadout and what you achieve with it
too hard and expensive. for first iteration enough standard parameters (takedowns, final blows, deaths, dmg, support and executions).

Oghamsmith
2nd Mar 2016, 15:16
Hi everyone,

Sorry about taking a little while to respond, we've been discussing your feedback today in between other meatings and tasks that need to be attended to. This thread contains some of the clearest feedback that we've received in quite some time. Thank you for that.

The original idea with Nosgoth Leagues was to eventually have them running 24/7 (there would be a few hours of downtime between each season while data from the previous seasons was processed and the new season was prepped).

Why?
It's fairly straightforward really. We have a larger number of unique players playing more regularly, and for longer periods of time when Leagues are live. While ranked play may be more stressful for some (particularly those seeking to climb ever higher in Eternal), it's also more engaging for the majority of players out there. There are absolutely elements that we need to fix, but the majority of the playerbase seems to prefer playing ranked games over unranked games.

This is why League Beta 5.0 and 6.0 are running back to back, and why the plan was to continue to do so.

With That Said
The feedback in this thread is pretty darn strong. We're currently discussing what might be possible in terms of shaking up the initial plan. Bear in mind that we do want to ensure that League seasons start at the beginning of a calendar month. After discussing your feedback internally, two variations of a change present themselves.


End the League beta half a week before the end of the month. This would maximize the availability of League play for the majority of players, while providing a rest period between seasons for those looking for a bit of a break.

End the League beat a week before the end of the month. This would considerably reduce the availability of League play, which we're not entirely thrilled about, but it would provide more of a break in between seasons.


We're still discussing this, so it would be interesting to get any further thoughts that you might have.

EDIT: As a point of clarification, we will not be changing the parameters of League Beta 6.0, we're not fans of moving the goalposts mid-season). We do however want to see if we can make any changes to make more players happy with the League cadence going forward.

Vampmaster
2nd Mar 2016, 15:27
Hi everyone,

Sorry about taking a little while to respond, we've been discussing your feedback today in between other meatings and tasks that need to be attended to. This thread contains some of the clearest feedback that we've received in quite some time. Thank you for that.

The original idea with Nosgoth Leagues was to eventually have them running 24/7 (there would be a few hours of downtime between each season while data from the previous seasons was processed and the new season was prepped).

Why?
It's fairly straightforward really. We have a larger number of unique players playing more regularly, and for longer periods of time when Leagues are live. While ranked play may be more stressful for some (particularly those seeking to climb ever higher in Eternal), it's also more engaging for the majority of players out there. There are absolutely elements that we need to fix, but the majority of the playerbase seems to prefer playing ranked games over unranked games.

This is why League Beta 5.0 and 6.0 are running back to back, and why the plan was to continue to do so.

With That Said
The feedback in this thread is pretty darn strong. We're currently discussing what might be possible in terms of shaking up the initial plan. Bear in mind that we do want to ensure that League seasons start at the beginning of a calendar month. After discussing your feedback internally, two variations of a change present themselves.


End the League beta half a week before the end of the month. This would maximize the availability of League play for the majority of players, while providing a rest period between seasons for those looking for a bit of a break.

End the League beat a week before the end of the month. This would considerably reduce the availability of League play, which we're not entirely thrilled about, but it would provide more of a break in between seasons.


We're still discussing this, so it would be interesting to get any further thoughts that you might have.

EDIT: As a point of clarification, we will not be changing the parameters of League Beta 6.0, we're not fans of moving the goalposts mid-season). We do however want to see if we can make any changes to make more players happy with the League cadence going forward.

I don't think people are playing it because it's more engaging though. It's mostly for the prizes.

BTW, can you answer my question about the vampire meshes? I'm just curious about the reason. I'm not expecting an immediate change.

eldavimost
2nd Mar 2016, 15:27
too hard and expensive. for first iteration enough standard parameters (takedowns, final blows, deaths, dmg, support and executions).

Agree with you I have edited the post so it is clearer the change I thought could be done meanwhile.

What do you think about the anti-grinding idea?

eldavimost
2nd Mar 2016, 15:42
Hi everyone,

Sorry about taking a little while to respond, we've been discussing your feedback today in between other meatings and tasks that need to be attended to. This thread contains some of the clearest feedback that we've received in quite some time. Thank you for that.

The original idea with Nosgoth Leagues was to eventually have them running 24/7 (there would be a few hours of downtime between each season while data from the previous seasons was processed and the new season was prepped).

Why?
It's fairly straightforward really. We have a larger number of unique players playing more regularly, and for longer periods of time when Leagues are live. While ranked play may be more stressful for some (particularly those seeking to climb ever higher in Eternal), it's also more engaging for the majority of players out there. There are absolutely elements that we need to fix, but the majority of the playerbase seems to prefer playing ranked games over unranked games.

This is why League Beta 5.0 and 6.0 are running back to back, and why the plan was to continue to do so.

With That Said
The feedback in this thread is pretty darn strong. We're currently discussing what might be possible in terms of shaking up the initial plan. Bear in mind that we do want to ensure that League seasons start at the beginning of a calendar month. After discussing your feedback internally, two variations of a change present themselves.


End the League beta half a week before the end of the month. This would maximize the availability of League play for the majority of players, while providing a rest period between seasons for those looking for a bit of a break.

End the League beat a week before the end of the month. This would considerably reduce the availability of League play, which we're not entirely thrilled about, but it would provide more of a break in between seasons.


We're still discussing this, so it would be interesting to get any further thoughts that you might have.

EDIT: As a point of clarification, we will not be changing the parameters of League Beta 6.0, we're not fans of moving the goalposts mid-season). We do however want to see if we can make any changes to make more players happy with the League cadence going forward.

Thanks for keeping us on the loop so we know what is going on around there.

Again, it is all about the strain generated by the need of the people to grind points all day long to get higher, if something similar to what I am proposing here with the points pool and the change in the points system [http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=186616&p=2201083#post2201083] was done, people could play their ranked and then rest or keep playing other game modes (TDM, CTB, FP, etc). If the people could comment on this or propose better ideas it would be very nice.

I think point-grinding is starting to get a really big problem in the game. This last month I felt like the people went completely nuts about this, and was very difficult to climb up (I only reached Blood II when in most of the previous leagues I finished in ethernal).

BTW I have a question, have you changed anything on the matchmaking algorithm around 2-3 weeks ago?

Zarxiel93
2nd Mar 2016, 15:43
the players don't play League because they like it, but because the legue is more like an "Hey, in this league will be exclusive prizes, if you don't reach blood you will NEVER get that prizes".
It looks more like a blackmail then a reward

River_
2nd Mar 2016, 15:43
There are absolutely elements that we need to fix, but the majority of the playerbase seems to prefer playing ranked games over unranked games.

This is not true. The reason this may seem from the info gathered is because league has prices, which is why we play them. And while the majority of the players are in league, it is damn near impossible to find a normal TDM. The solution? Play league to play Nosgoth :/ So that is why it may seem that ranked is prefered, but from the opinions I have heard from everywhere, nobody plays ranked for the fun..


Coming to the point of having a week or half a week of downtime:

The original idea with Nosgoth Leagues was to eventually have them running 24/7 (there would be a few hours of downtime between each season while data from the previous seasons was processed and the new season was prepped).

Change the original idea then. Give us a month or so in between. This gives plenty of time to develop ALL aspects of Nosgoth (like FP, CTB, balance, actual prizes worth winning), while keeping ranked fun(-ish).


EDIT: As a point of clarification, we will not be changing the parameters of League Beta 6.0, we're not fans of moving the goalposts mid-season).

Oooh please, give me a break. It started yesterday. There is no way this is 'mid-season'. If there ever was a time to stop it, it would be now. And if you really feel bad for the people who already played 30 games, just freeze the ranked points, and give them their points at the new start of the season.

With all that said, I do hope you will discuss this further. However, just an explanation and what might possibly happen NEXT seasons will not cut it for me (and I think not for others as well). We want this to be changed as soon as possible. Thanks for listening!

kLauE187
2nd Mar 2016, 15:46
Agree with you I have edited the post so it is clearer the change I thought could be done meanwhile.

What do you think about the anti-grinding idea?
It's a TEAM-based game, so score shouldn't matter at all. And i usually place 1st or 2nd 99% of the games i play...

Da_Wolv
2nd Mar 2016, 15:47
the majority of the playerbase seems to prefer playing ranked games over unranked games.
Based on what evidence? Player counts in each mode?
Of course people will play more ranked than unranked - Thats where the prizes are.
Since most people don't run with a 4-man team anyways, why not go ranked all the time? Since skill is virtually not important, if you are just playing alone or with 1 friend, you might as well play for the points.

That, however, does not say anything about the quality of the experience.



. After discussing your feedback internally, two variations of a change present themselves.


End the League beta half a week before the end of the month.

End the League beat a week before the end of the month.
Which is completely besides the point that we were trying to make.
Yes, having a break inbetween Leagues is needed, but it was not the catalyst for this backlash.
What this is actually about is,
a) since you keep advertising this as a BETA, why don't you actually test different things and expand the mode with each Beta test?
b) The grindy nature of the mode simply makes most long-term players sick.

I stopped playing once for two weeks because nothing was happening. Frankly, I don't see any reason to keep playing this game anymore. It just makes me too angry. And reading these statements, which make it clear you still haven't understood our complaints, just makes me even angrier.



EDIT: As a point of clarification, we will not be changing the parameters of League Beta 6.0, we're not fans of moving the goalposts mid-season). We do however want to see if we can make any changes to make more players happy with the League cadence going forward.
@HexMe: You called it. Didn't even have to wait all week to tell us to go **** ourselves.

Seriously Devs,
read my initial (way-back-when) post (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=160758)again and tell me why your League is a better alternative. I am out of words at this point.
I'd boycott the games storefront, but what would that accomplish.
After all, you pay me... :scratch:

HexMee
2nd Mar 2016, 16:11
EDIT: As a point of clarification, we will not be changing the parameters of League Beta 6.0, we're not fans of moving the goalposts mid-season). We do however want to see if we can make any changes to make more players happy with the League cadence going forward.

1 day into the season is NOT "mid-season"
let me remind you that when this forum thread was posted (15:46) announcing the new league, it took exactly 5 minutes (15:51) for someone to respond, and I quote: "OMG so soon ??"
The only reason this can be even remotely considered "mid-season" is because you waited more than an entire day to answer us. We gave feedback as quickly as we could to not go too far into the season for you guys to be able to stop the season and wait a while.

SirSleepALot
2nd Mar 2016, 17:33
@SirSleepALot @Ysanoire, I think most of us just play for the prizes, not for the pleasure of grinding through endless mismatched games where we either get flamed by toxic players or completely pulverized if everybody hasn't quit before it got to that stage.


I'll try to keep this short, not to waste everyone's time.

While I'm trying to raise my competitive skill, for me and my ESL team, I focus on playing as many scrims as we can but also playing ranked for three reasons.

1) scrims (or team players) are not always available. I would very much prefer in playing ranked with 1 teammate then normal.
2) strengthening team relations between different roles (scout/hunter, hunter/prophet etc). I play with a teammate so we get more used to each other's style of play. This is ONLY valid for my team because we made some changes, brought new players, etc.
3) playing against stronger players in duo queue. I can't get better if I keep playing vs weak players.


I want to get better at the game and I think I can ALSO do this in ranked, and I would choose it over normal games (in the current state).

- I don't mind toxic players. I wouldn't mind an option to mute chat (got some positive intent from the last official stream). I don't let it affect me. If I would give a nickle for every toxic line I read in nosgoth or other games, I would have as much money as hexmeh got from leagues ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

- I don't mind bad players, bad mmr. You would get them also in normal games but there the chance of them leaving is way higher than in ranked (because the psychology behind "getting a punishment, ban, etc".)

- I don't mind playing alone (although I try to get another player with me) because I can focus on specific things I need to improve.

If I can do this while I play what I would normally play without leagues and get a cash reward, why not?

Are there bigger things the devs should fix? Yes.
Would getting bigger cash prizes (at this moment) to ESL bring in a bigger player base? No.
Would giving more money to ESL players improve the overall skill and game knowledge for the majority of player base? No.

Please note these are my personal thoughts and you shouldn't see them as facts. You're free to share your opinion and not impose your way of thinking on anyone, just like I did.

Oh, I tried to make it short. sorry.

GenFeelGood
2nd Mar 2016, 17:36
I finished my 5 matches before being ranked yesterday. All 5 of them were with the same great 2 or 3 players that were always on the opposing team; and those matches all ended in a landslide defeat for my team, even when I came back for the last 2 matches a few hours later in an attempt to get away from them (guess how they ended). I got placed in Bronze V because of this, playing against the same better team over and over again.

Now, I'm not at the age or place in my life where I can commit several hours a day to leagues. The last league took me the full month just to reach Blood V, literally a day from that league's conclusion; and that was with a lucky string of wins near the end.

What chance do I or any other players in my position really have of reaching Blood again before it is over?

Also, why are you recoloring the same tyrant skin for third time? I've said how the Tyrants are perfect for tattoos with their size and all that exposed skin; but come on, surely this tattoo could be placed upon one of the alternates. The Colossus would be perfect, given there is nothing covering the chest like the straps or sashes that are on the others; but the Imperial could also work since his pale skin would make the best contrast and the Platemail certainly fits the aesthetic of leagues.

Vampmaster
2nd Mar 2016, 17:43
I'll try to keep this short, not to waste everyone's time.

While I'm trying to raise my competitive skill, for me and my ESL team, I focus on playing as many scrims as we can but also playing ranked for three reasons.

1) scrims (or team players) are not always available. I would very much prefer in playing ranked with 1 teammate then normal.
2) strengthening team relations between different roles (scout/hunter, hunter/prophet etc). I play with a teammate so we get more used to each other's style of play. This is ONLY valid for my team because we made some changes, brought new players, etc.
3) playing against stronger players in duo queue. I can't get better if I keep playing vs weak players.


I want to get better at the game and I think I can ALSO do this in ranked, and I would choose it over normal games (in the current state).

- I don't mind toxic players. I wouldn't mind an option to mute chat (got some positive intent from the last official stream). I don't let it affect me. If I would give a nickle for every toxic line I read in nosgoth or other games, I would have as much money as hexmeh got from leagues ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

- I don't mind bad players, bad mmr. You would get them also in normal games but there the chance of them leaving is way higher than in ranked (because the psychology behind "getting a punishment, ban, etc".)

- I don't mind playing alone (although I try to get another player with me) because I can focus on specific things I need to improve.

If I can do this while I play what I would normally play without leagues and get a cash reward, why not?

Are there bigger things the devs should fix? Yes.
Would getting bigger cash prizes (at this moment) to ESL bring in a bigger player base? No.
Would giving more money to ESL players improve the overall skill and game knowledge for the majority of player base? No.

Please note these are my personal thoughts and you shouldn't see them as facts. You're free to share your opinion and not impose your way of thinking on anyone, just like I did.

Oh, I tried to make it short. sorry.

I said "most" and I also started my sentence with "I think" to be clear that it's just my opinion. I was merely trying to explain why there's so many complaints about league, even though so many of us still play it. If people really were playing league to practice for ESL, don't you think there'd be more players in ESL? I wasn't really referring to cash rewards, because only a small portion of the community even reach the top 100. It's the blood rank prizes that bulk out the number of people playing league. If SE try a league without blood prizes, I don't think they'd be seeing such a huge player spike when league is running.

Wilford_Norton
2nd Mar 2016, 18:12
Guess I'm gonna throw some sticks in the fire as well. You guys should really listen to your community and throwing another league season after the last one is just finished is ridiculous. As many ppl said - we need a break. Tbh I'd like to see you guys working on your game and fixing it, instead of putting up another season of broken gamemode. Fix the hit reg (especially on prophet), fix the mm (cause Im tired to carry dem noobs with 0-150 hrs in game against 3esl players) and PLEASE rework the forge. Thats the minority of problems that I've noticed so far but I dont want to flame too much. So far I agreed with the most of the opinions in this thread and would love to see you guys finally make a right decision.

teatowls
2nd Mar 2016, 18:13
"mid-season" :confused: Its only just started...

That one week or a few days gap looks to be alright start at least but considering ranked is a BETA there should be at least 1 month between each test. A long break should be plenty of time to work on the mode, work on the rest of the game and create decent prizes that are worth grinding for. I'm no game developer, but I just don't see how any improvements can be made to ranked if there are never any breaks between the seasons.

The prizes for the past couple of leagues have been pretty lack-luster... a special fx which we're still waiting on, a gold shotgun for a class which hasn't been released yet and now a recoloured base skin. I noticed there was no comment on the negative response to the reward for this season and I really hope that you actually pay attention to this. No nice reward = No incentive to play ranked.

Oghamsmith
2nd Mar 2016, 18:20
You're right Vampmaster, the prizes during League Betas are certainly a draw. Ranking is too, as is the lower leaver rate in League games. There are a quite a few reasons why people choose to play more Nosgoth while Leagues are available to them, and we would like to keep that choice available to players as often as we can.

Regarding your question about meshes.
We still need to sign off on future League rewards, but in general we do want to try and get more Vampire content into them. I'm not sure if mesh changes are planned to be honest, we're investigating potentially broadening the types of prizing that might be available. We can speak about that a bit more, later down the line.

As mentioned before, bug fixes for Leagues are on the way, they have however been held up due to the recent patch delay. Generally, the amount of time that we have to test different Leagues configurations isn't indefinite. Changing the minimum level requirement might seem like a small change to you guys, which is understandable, mechanically it is a minor tweak. It does however have the potential to have quite a large impact on how new players approach Nosgoth, play the game, and ultimately how long the stick around. This is pretty darn important to any game, Free to Play in particular. If increasing the minimum requirement drops the number of new players we have returning to the game by 15%, that's a big problem. This test is important and does need to happen. There are absolutely other factors to be taken into consideration as well, we will not be ignoring those.

There's not a huge point to arguing about what does and doesn't constitute mid-season, that's inconsequential as to whether or not we will be stopping beta 6.0. Once a season commences, we're quite averse to the idea of ending it, regardless of how long it has been running for. Ensuring that future seasons happen at a better cadence for everyone is what I'm working to make happen at the moment.

Da_Wolv
2nd Mar 2016, 18:45
As mentioned before, bug fixes for Leagues are on the way, they have however been held up due to the recent patch delay.
Then why not wait until those changes are in before starting the test?


Changing the minimum level requirement might seem like a small change to you guys, which is understandable, mechanically it is a minor tweak. It does however have the potential to have quite a large impact on how new players approach Nosgoth, play the game, and ultimately how long the stick around. Ya.. sorry - I don't buy that for a second.
The change is minor has virtually no impact. If you had changed it to 25, that would've been a big change, but not even enough in my book to warrant a new test. Sure, not having low level noobs ruining games is a win, but the few players withing those 5 levels that are now also locked out from League cannot make that big of difference.

What you have yet to do is actually adress all the grievances with ranked, which, again, makes me both sad and angry. The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem... and Ranked is not a problem - its a cancer.
Most people here would not be sad to see it go, or at the very least altered beyond recognition.
I'm just going to keep linking this (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=160758) until we get an actual response to the feedback, other than the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and drowning out the critic's voices.



There's not a huge point to arguing about what does and doesn't constitute mid-season, that's inconsequential as to whether or not we will be stopping beta 6.0. Once a season commences, we're quite averse to the idea of ending it, regardless of how long it has been running for. Ensuring that future seasons happen at a better cadence for everyone is what I'm working to make happen at the moment.
Translation = 'LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU'

enkaku-silence-
2nd Mar 2016, 19:10
The original idea with Nosgoth Leagues was to eventually have them running 24/7 (there would be a few hours of downtime between each season while data from the previous seasons was processed and the new season was prepped).

Why?
It's fairly straightforward really. We have a larger number of unique players playing more regularly, and for longer periods of time when Leagues are live. While ranked play may be more stressful for some (particularly those seeking to climb ever higher in Eternal), it's also more engaging for the majority of players out there. There are absolutely elements that we need to fix, but the majority of the playerbase seems to prefer playing ranked games over unranked games.

This is why League Beta 5.0 and 6.0 are running back to back, and why the plan was to continue to do so.

24/7 is great for the time the league is running, but no pause between leagues is just a bad idea.
I love CTB for example, but I would never play it if there is a league running, because it feels like I could use my time for grinding ranked.
If there would be a pause I would enjoy playing CTB so much just because it is different from TDM/League.
And you would have enough time to actually add changes and fix your stuff.



With That Said
The feedback in this thread is pretty darn strong. We're currently discussing what might be possible in terms of shaking up the initial plan. Bear in mind that we do want to ensure that League seasons start at the beginning of a calendar month. After discussing your feedback internally, two variations of a change present themselves.


End the League beta half a week before the end of the month. This would maximize the availability of League play for the majority of players, while providing a rest period between seasons for those looking for a bit of a break.

End the League beat a week before the end of the month. This would considerably reduce the availability of League play, which we're not entirely thrilled about, but it would provide more of a break in between seasons.


We're still discussing this, so it would be interesting to get any further thoughts that you might have.

Why do you have to start at the start of a calendar month? Do you have counting issues? Would explain a lot.

I would rather prefer a rhythm like 1st-31st and next league 15th-15th. Two weeks break would be great.
I smell another poll thread that you can ignore.



EDIT: As a point of clarification, we will not be changing the parameters of League Beta 6.0, we're not fans of moving the goalposts mid-season). We do however want to see if we can make any changes to make more players happy with the League cadence going forward.

No problem if you keep this league up now, since it already started. But please consider some changes to the next league.
And the blood reward this season is really not that satisfying. To be honest they got less and less appealing with time. Okay maybe the art team focusses on Beastmaster and Rahabim now.
It's just... you went from exclusive bloody victor skins to visual FX and recolored standard skins? Not cool.

SonixSquad
2nd Mar 2016, 19:15
Just want to add my thoughts to the pot.

I agree there should be a bit of a gap between leagues but having said that I understand why you're doing it. Its obvious the population levels are more stable when there are cash prizes being put on the table. Should that be the only reason why players come to play Nosgoth ? Nope, but there will blatantly be players here purely because of the cash prizes on offer in leagues. Some even using hacks.

My point of view; I play leagues because I like to play competitive and I don't consider allowing 4 stack premades (as is allowed in casual TDM) versus single random queued team as competitive. I literally cannot play TDM solo anymore unless I queue with players I know but then steamrolling a random player team is no fun either (okay its a little fun, but its neither a challenge nor competitive).
I should also point out that I didn't play the league season where 4 man premades were allowed. I think 2 man premade limit is good for now.

Maybe I should look more into ESL if I want to play proper competitive matches, maybe thats what I'm doing wrong. But until I get to that point, I like playing leagues over Casual TDM. I just wanted to clarify that I am not playing leagues for the prizes so the Tyrant skin is not a put-off for me although I agree it is a bit of a cheap offering this time around.

The minimum level to take part in leagues is step in the right direction and I understand the need to take those steps slowly as small decisions can make bigger impacts than intended and testing is always good. I think add to that a requirement that all abilities need to be unlocked for all classes that are unlocked. I don't want to see Prophets in leagues that do not have Eldritch unlocked yet. wtf.

Oghamsmith
2nd Mar 2016, 19:17
Then why not wait until those changes are in before starting the test?As I mentioned above. We do not have an indefinite amount of time available to us for testing. It would be great to have those fixes ready to release, however given that we don't, we need to push forward with other testing regardless.



Ya.. sorry - I don't buy that for a second.
The change is minor has virtually no impact. If you had changed it to 25, that would've been a big change, but not even enough in my book to warrant a new test. Sure, not having low level noobs ruining games is a win, but the few players withing those 5 levels that are now also locked out from League cannot make that big of difference.
Doubling the approximate amount of time that it takes for new players to gain access to the game mode that the majority of people play in Nosgoth is a massive change. There's absolutely no need to believe me, but that is a drastic change to the new player experience, and could have a large impact on the way new players behave.



What you have yet to do is actually adress all the grievances with ranked, which, again, makes me both sad and angry. The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem... and Ranked is not a problem - its a cancer.
Most people here would not be sad to see it go, or at the very least altered beyond recognition.
I'm just going to keep linking this (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=160758) until we get an actual response to the feedback, other than the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and drowning out the critic's voices.
This point requires more time, which I'll hopefully have tomorrow.



Translation = 'LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU'Not at all. We hear you, but are making the commitment to all of our players that once we begin a season, we will see it out. The degree to which you wish to participate in this season is entirely up to you. For those taking part, we will not be changing the format once the season is underway.

Zarxiel93
2nd Mar 2016, 19:22
But the thing that the players hated this time (or at least I think) is that you started this new season WITHOUT ANY ADVISE!
Neither in the State of play, this is really a shame -.-

River_
2nd Mar 2016, 19:35
You're right Vampmaster, the prizes during League Betas are certainly a draw. Ranking is too, as is the lower leaver rate in League games. There are a quite a few reasons why people choose to play more Nosgoth while Leagues are available to them, and we would like to keep that choice available to players as often as we can.

Basically, this makes no sense. The leaver rate in league games is much higher in league than in TDM, and not even a big wonder why. At high levels, why lose 9 points when you can just leave and lose 4? The money and league prizes are the ONLY reasons people play ranked. You say that ranking is? Ha! Ranking is a joke, because it doesn't reflect skill, it reflects on how many games you succesfully managed to have the better teammates with, and how much you grind.




Regarding your question about meshes.
We still need to sign off on future League rewards, but in general we do want to try and get more Vampire content into them. I'm not sure if mesh changes are planned to be honest, we're investigating potentially broadening the types of prizing that might be available. We can speak about that a bit more, later down the line.

Like I said, the only thing that draws people to league are the prizes, so why make them more terrible every season? Are you trying to see how low you can get? Because congratz, you hit the bottom. Broadening the types of prizes? Awesome. But then do it like: fx for silver, add-able items (as in tattoos, pieces of gear, headdresses, blood splatters) + fx for gold, and both those things + a full reskin for blood and above. Vo*la, broadening the types of prizes WITHOUT decreasing their quality.



As mentioned before, bug fixes for Leagues are on the way, they have however been held up due to the recent patch delay. Generally, the amount of time that we have to test different Leagues configurations isn't indefinite. Changing the minimum level requirement might seem like a small change to you guys, which is understandable, mechanically it is a minor tweak. It does however have the potential to have quite a large impact on how new players approach Nosgoth, play the game, and ultimately how long the stick around. This is pretty darn important to any game, Free to Play in particular. If increasing the minimum requirement drops the number of new players we have returning to the game by 15%, that's a big problem. This test is important and does need to happen. There are absolutely other factors to be taken into consideration as well, we will not be ignoring those.

Lets take a look at this: http://steamcharts.com/app/200110
See that? It is decreasing again. And I am pretty sure the increase in Dec/Jan is because of the new launcher. So saying how new players approach Nosgoth and league has a big impact is bs. Have you guys ever played Heroes of the Storm? Know the requirements to get into ranked there? It takes hours, and that is a good thing as well, because new players WANT TO PLAY THE GAME. This, however, is quite frankly impossible for them, as new recruit waiting times take forever, and everybody who is high enough of a level is in ranked. Want new people to come and stay? Release more content, diverse gamemodes, balance the game.

Is the test important? That's fine, but how about you polish ALL aspects of ranked, not just add a flower to a pile of poo to see what changes.



There's not a huge point to arguing about what does and doesn't constitute mid-season, that's inconsequential as to whether or not we will be stopping beta 6.0. Once a season commences, we're quite averse to the idea of ending it, regardless of how long it has been running for. Ensuring that future seasons happen at a better cadence for everyone is what I'm working to make happen at the moment.

Seriously, what is stopping you from making the ONE decision that everybody is litteraly screaming for? You are averse to the idea? So? If you want to improve the league, then start by listening to what the people want. It is like we are talking to a wall here.

enkaku-silence-
2nd Mar 2016, 19:50
At high levels, why lose 9 points when you can just leave and lose 4?

Exactly! Worst part of this is that I once lost 12 points for losing a 3vs4!
Why? The guy who left and ruined it only lost 4!

Gugulug5000
2nd Mar 2016, 20:14
Interesting thread. I'm surprised at how angry everyone is getting honestly. I mean, I agree that this league is too soon and that we're all getting burned out, but the amount of people demanding the league be stopped is staggering. Seeing as we're all giving our completely honest opinions on the matter, I figure I'll chime in as well.

The biggest problem for this league is the burnout I think. We literally just finished a season and have had like one day to relax. The problem is this: people basically have to play league at this point. People like in game content, and if there is in game content that is only obtainable for a short time frame, they all feel like they need to get it while they can. That's probably the reason most people play leagues, as the vast majority don't care about getting to eternal league. There's also no real reason to play regular TDM over leagues because TDM is clearly inferior (no rewards, lower player population, leavers, etc). So naturally everyone goes to league.

Now here's the next problem that adds on to my previous point: the requirements to get the season reward are too high. So once everyone is in League, they're stuck there until they get to Blood V at least. The requirements to get to Blood were (for me), about 40-50 games total for the first few seasons. Assuming a middle ground of 45 games required, and an average game duration of 15 min, that totals to nearly 12 hours of playing, without counting wait times, games that don't count due to leavers, etc. Last season seemed to double the amount of time needed to play. Inexplicably, people were having to get 90-100 games to get to Blood where they only had to get half that before. All of that for a golden shotgun that probably just used the exact same texture as the other golden weapons.

Next on the list has to do with the term that accompanies every league: "You must be 18 or older to participate." Well guess what? Most people who are 18 or older have these fancy things called "jobs" or "families" or "school" or a mixture of them. We don't have all the time in the world to play a video game, especially when Nosgoth is asking us to dedicate 1/30th of our total time in a month. I didn't get the Blood reward last league (first one I missed), why? Because playing that much in such a toxic environment was not worth the reward.

Next problem: matchmaking. Tell me, when I start playing my 5 ranking matches, why is it that I have to play people who are in eternal league for EVERY ONE of my ranking matches. Why doesn't it put me against silver guys, then if I win, up the stakes to gold guys, or if I lose, maybe make me play bronze guys? The apparent problem here is that it is using MMR to do the matchmaking, when a ladder system is in place. If it makes the top 10% of players go against each other consistently, then the better half of that 10% will beat the lower half almost every time. So the lower half of the 10% will struggle to rise through the ladder because they're always playing people who are better than them, and people who are less skilled than them will pass them in the ladder because they're playing weaker competition and winning. The matchmaking needs to pit Bronze vs Bronze, Eternal vs Eternal, whenever able, that way the top 10% can all actually be at the top.

The final problem coming to mind is how toxic people are in league. The reason is because in league you are expected to play to win, so playing for fun goes out the window because virtually no one is in TDM. If you decide to try something new, or play a class that's not your best, you get yelled at by the toxic idiots who are absolutely set on earning their $30 at the end of the month. You can't mute them, and you can't avoid them in the future without getting penalized. Nosgoth went from being fun to being a chore.

So what are the solutions? In my opinion, leagues can be fixed easily:

1) Matchmaking needs to be based on ladder position. Actual skill will be determined this way, not by using the standard MMR. Good players will plow through the ladder and people who actually deserve Eternal will end up being there, not some hack who is only in eternal because he has all the time in the world to grind.

2) Lower the requirement for the prize back to gold. Is it really a big deal if more players get the monthly reward? As long as you guys keep producing cool stuff for rune stones, we'll buy them. Lower requirements would let those people who just want the reward get through leagues quicker, get their reward, and either take a break from Nosgoth entirely, or let them go over to TDM to play casually. Easier rewards means less burnout, less time having to deal with toxic people, and more free time to try new classes/abilities. These solutions aren't perfect, I'm sure, but they'd sure help deal with some of the issues.

Endsequenz
2nd Mar 2016, 20:37
I will not take part in the discussion about league, cuz I don´t play it since half a year now.
I am not in the mood to do so and I also didn´t had the time most of this half year, to grind my brain away. Also I wanted to work on specs in peace and there was nothing new to get in league, besides these imo not really needed ingame items.

It´s kinda funny to see everybody screaming about leagues, cuz as someone already said, nobody forces you guys to play it.
What for? A skin that many will have? Or the money that is mostly splitted up between the same players (which I don´t mean while I write this, ofc they will play to get the money!)?
Not saying I cannot understand it, but yeah...

However I just want to clarify something I´ve seen in here, cuz I think it´s wrong.

I played A LOT of Tdm the last half year... and yes ofc Tdm is more populated when there is no league, cuz ppl don´t have anything to do then. But if you out count the ppl that have moved from league to Tdm because of that, I am pretty sure Tdm is even more populated when league is running, especially 2-3 days after league has closed.

Also ofc ppl will prefer league over Tdm if the choice is given...
-shorter queue time
-prices
-witchfire drop that could only drop in league while winter items dropped in both modes
-there was even more I forgot about^^

I also think that running the league without a break or just a week break makes it kinda boring.
Longer breaks would create a way bigger hype about them I would say.

Whatever, it still seems like no one really cares about feedback. The new cm is doing his best, we can all see that. But nothing much really has changed tbh... sry, but that is not developing the game the way a community wants you to.
No one ever knows what will happen next.. besides maybe a few things that aren´t that big of a suprise.. why not?

Why are there polls in the forums with 30 ppl voting and not an ingame link bringing ppl to the forums and to the polls - or even better ingame polls or something like that? You must know that you don´t really get to a lot of players like that, so you will never see what most ppl really want.

nn*

RainaAudron
2nd Mar 2016, 20:41
Very well and politely said, Gugulug, couldn´t agree more with you :thumb:

vampirelucky
2nd Mar 2016, 21:37
Lets take a look at this: http://steamcharts.com/app/200110
See that? It is decreasing again. And I am pretty sure the increase in Dec/Jan is because of the new launcher. So saying how new players approach Nosgoth and league has a big impact is bs. Have you guys ever played Heroes of the Storm? Know the requirements to get into ranked there? It takes hours, and that is a good thing as well, because new players WANT TO PLAY THE GAME. This, however, is quite frankly impossible for them, as new recruit waiting times take forever, and everybody who is high enough of a level is in ranked. Want new people to come and stay? Release more content, diverse gamemodes, balance the game.

Is the test important? That's fine, but how about you polish ALL aspects of ranked, not just add a flower to a pile of poo to see what changes.


You can't compare the matchmaking structures of Nosgoth and Heroes of the Storm just because they are both "free". HotS is combining all of Blizzard's game universes so it's easy to get the interest of a fraction of the millions of players that play their other games even if HotS is much simpler and shallower than other MOBAs.
Nosgoth on the other hand has considerably fewer fans since the last game in the franchise was in 2004 and that all other games were singleplayer. So for Nosgoth to become massively popular it has to draw in people that are new to the franchise which isn't easy and quite different of what HotS goals are.

Also correlation doesn't equal causation! If you just look at that graph and make up reasons why there are increases and decreases, without having other relevant data and statistics, you can't come up with valid objective conclusions. I'm pretty sure that Square Enix/Psyonix have a team of people whose job is to analyze game statistics - it is not as simple as you may think.

Zarxiel93
2nd Mar 2016, 21:59
I will not take part in the discussion about league, cuz I don´t play it since half a year now.
I am not in the mood to do so and I also didn´t had the time most of this half year, to grind my brain away. Also I wanted to work on specs in peace and there was nothing new to get in league, besides these imo not really needed ingame items.

It´s kinda funny to see everybody screaming about leagues, cuz as someone already said, nobody forces you guys to play it.
What for? A skin that many will have? Or the money that is mostly splitted up between the same players (which I don´t mean while I write this, ofc they will play to get the money!)?
Not saying I cannot understand it, but yeah...

However I just want to clarify something I´ve seen in here, cuz I think it´s wrong.

I played A LOT of Tdm the last half year... and yes ofc Tdm is more populated when there is no league, cuz ppl don´t have anything to do then. But if you out count the ppl that have moved from league to Tdm because of that, I am pretty sure Tdm is even more populated when league is running, especially 2-3 days after league has closed.

Also ofc ppl will prefer league over Tdm if the choice is given...
-shorter queue time
-prices
-witchfire drop that could only drop in league while winter items dropped in both modes
-there was even more I forgot about^^

I also think that running the league without a break or just a week break makes it kinda boring.
Longer breaks would create a way bigger hype about them I would say.

Whatever, it still seems like no one really cares about feedback. The new cm is doing his best, we can all see that. But nothing much really has changed tbh... sry, but that is not developing the game the way a community wants you to.
No one ever knows what will happen next.. besides maybe a few things that aren´t that big of a suprise.. why not?

Why are there polls in the forums with 30 ppl voting and not an ingame link bringing ppl to the forums and to the polls - or even better ingame polls or something like that? You must know that you don´t really get to a lot of players like that, so you will never see what most ppl really want.

nn*

Totally agree my friend, this is the perfect soluction.
Gold rank for reward is absolutly PERFECT!

I made a poll for change the rank for rewards.
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=186644

Grisamentum
2nd Mar 2016, 22:10
Yeah I don't get my everyone's being so aggy...just don't play leagues...
I do agree that GOLD rank is better for the prize than BLOOD. I had no problem getting to gold the very first time but never got the prize since it was increased to blood tier. I gave up trying to get the Beastmaster's gun this last season. It just got boring & I don't have the time so I don't play leagues at all just TDM.

Zarxiel93
2nd Mar 2016, 22:21
Well, I'm a collector, so I'm trying to get ALL skins, weapons, ecc... and my collection is really big :P for this I need to get all the league rewards.

Ysanoire
2nd Mar 2016, 23:38
So what are the solutions? In my opinion, leagues can be fixed easily:

1) Matchmaking needs to be based on ladder position. Actual skill will be determined this way, not by using the standard MMR. Good players will plow through the ladder and people who actually deserve Eternal will end up being there, not some hack who is only in eternal because he has all the time in the world to grind.


This is an important topic which maybe deserves a separate discussion, but since this appeared...
I think I agree. At least it's worth a try (this is a test, right?) because the matchmaking that exists now doesn't seem to do the job too well. There are some reasons to use mmr for this (waiting times, for one, every division has a limited number of players), but mm based on rank would at least feel fair in the sense that you'd be facing the ranks that you're competing for. And in order to get a higher rank there would be no way around beating the players who are occupying it.

This needs to be accompanied by one more change: bonus points for progress in the previous season. I know players are required to grind a bit before getting any prizes but there's absolutely NO REASON to have eternal players start in silver 5 or some such. Giving people extra points for their past progress would separate the better players from the weaker ones at the beginning of a season so the mm isn't completely random.

enkaku-silence-
3rd Mar 2016, 00:08
I do agree that GOLD rank is better for the prize than BLOOD. I had no problem getting to gold the very first time but never got the prize since it was increased to blood tier.

What the fridge is wrong with people these days? If it is "no problem" to reach something, it is not worth giving out a prize for it!

Grisamentum
3rd Mar 2016, 01:21
What the fridge is wrong with people these days? If it is "no problem" to reach something, it is not worth giving out a prize for it!

I...don't care...I just want the skins XD
I don't want to grind away for hours so the game's not enjoyable anymore.
You think I give a stuff about "earning" something in an online game?

Zarxiel93
3rd Mar 2016, 07:35
What the fridge is wrong with people these days? If it is "no problem" to reach something, it is not worth giving out a prize for it!

They can not claim that people are attached to the PC all the month to take the prizes that are becoming increasingly poor
then they must lower the rank, both for the difficulty that for rewards very poor

Guilhermera120
3rd Mar 2016, 09:46
If the thing of leagues is that it brings more players because of prizes then why don't you guys just put events such as Dead of Winter and the Molten Event which offers even more exclusive/rare items and people just need to play normal games??

Vampmaster
3rd Mar 2016, 11:06
They can not claim that people are attached to the PC all the month to take the prizes that are becoming increasingly poor
then they must lower the rank, both for the difficulty that for rewards very poor

They're not claiming that, though. They're claiming leagues are the most enjoyable mode to play, but I'd estimate only about 20% of league players are actually looking for a higher level of competition, thrill of reaching the top, etc, but aren't receiving that because of the remaining 80% who are only in it for the non-cash prizes. I think those two groups need to be separated so that the game can be more enjoyable for everyone.

Maybe if players could opt out of eternal at the start and never be matched with those who are aiming for that?

Farnbeak
3rd Mar 2016, 11:46
Oghamsmith, thank you for the replies, but there's one big thing that still bothers me!



Why?
It's fairly straightforward really. We have a larger number of unique players playing more regularly, and for longer periods of time when Leagues are live. While ranked play may be more stressful for some (particularly those seeking to climb ever higher in Eternal), it's also more engaging for the majority of players out there. There are absolutely elements that we need to fix, but the majority of the playerbase seems to prefer playing ranked games over unranked games.


You're right Vampmaster, the prizes during League Betas are certainly a draw. Ranking is too, as is the lower leaver rate in League games. There are a quite a few reasons why people choose to play more Nosgoth while Leagues are available to them, and we would like to keep that choice available to players as often as we can.


What are those conclusions based on? It sounds like you made a comparison there, so what is the control sampling?

You did count as relevant: Nosgoth Unique Players gaming frequency, Play Time periods length in
A - Nosgoth with Leagues running
vs
B - ?

Is B a year old data of Nosgoth before the leagues existed? (That data cannot be relevant)
Is B composed of short periods of time after the league endings like the beginning of December? That data cannot be relevant because of player exhaustion and the rest they get in those exact days.
Is B composed of morning/midday Nosgoth stats when leagues ran 8 peak hours a day?..

The big thing that bothers me more is not that there was never an effort to evaluate B (like a month clear of leagues to get good control data from last 2-3 weeks). It bothers me that this seemingly speculative comparison was still made, results drawn out, possibly affected development direction and even presented to us as justification.
If I miss something here (which I may) like that nice B, then please respond and I will surely beg pardon :o

I'd also add that all the justification you bring in the second quote is metagame. It absolutely doesn't need to belong to Leagues mode exclusively, and so doesn't justify it at all. Those things are good things and need to be universal across all modes. I've made an extensive point on that in the previous League announcement post (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=185638&p=2196388#post2196388) and I hope you had or will have the time to read it! We even had some nice chilled discussion with Da_Wolv and the other guys there.

If a similar comparison will be made in the future, then the playing field must be evened out as much as possible. People making their point against Leagues in this post are not against getting an exclusive monthly cosmetic reward or less leavers!

Also a 3rd relevant stat to measure in that comparison would be some simple 1-5 star aftermatch feedback like in Dota2 or R6S for example. That would really show the difference between the modes.

Thanks for the attention.

Vampmaster
3rd Mar 2016, 11:56
LOL:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0kVvNBmqL8

eldavimost
3rd Mar 2016, 12:24
The biggest problem for this league is the burnout I think. [...]

Next on the list has to do with the term that accompanies every league: "You must be 18 or older to participate." Well guess what? Most people who are 18 or older have these fancy things called "jobs" or "families" or "school" or a mixture of them. We don't have all the time in the world to play a video game, especially when Nosgoth is asking us to dedicate 1/30th of our total time in a month. I didn't get the Blood reward last league (first one I missed), why? Because playing that much in such a toxic environment was not worth the reward.

Next problem: matchmaking. Tell me, when I start playing my 5 ranking matches, why is it that I have to play people who are in eternal league for EVERY ONE of my ranking matches. Why doesn't it put me against silver guys, then if I win, up the stakes to gold guys, or if I lose, maybe make me play bronze guys? The apparent problem here is that it is using MMR to do the matchmaking, when a ladder system is in place. If it makes the top 10% of players go against each other consistently, then the better half of that 10% will beat the lower half almost every time. So the lower half of the 10% will struggle to rise through the ladder because they're always playing people who are better than them, and people who are less skilled than them will pass them in the ladder because they're playing weaker competition and winning. The matchmaking needs to pit Bronze vs Bronze, Eternal vs Eternal, whenever able, that way the top 10% can all actually be at the top.

The final problem coming to mind is how toxic people are in league. The reason is because in league you are expected to play to win, so playing for fun goes out the window because virtually no one is in TDM. [...] Nosgoth went from being fun to being a chore.

So what are the solutions? In my opinion, leagues can be fixed easily:

1) Matchmaking needs to be based on ladder position. Actual skill will be determined this way, not by using the standard MMR. Good players will plow through the ladder and people who actually deserve Eternal will end up being there, not some hack who is only in eternal because he has all the time in the world to grind.

2) Lower the requirement for the prize back to gold. Is it really a big deal if more players get the monthly reward? As long as you guys keep producing cool stuff for rune stones, we'll buy them. Lower requirements would let those people who just want the reward get through leagues quicker, get their reward, and either take a break from Nosgoth entirely, or let them go over to TDM to play casually. Easier rewards means less burnout, less time having to deal with toxic people, and more free time to try new classes/abilities. These solutions aren't perfect, I'm sure, but they'd sure help deal with some of the issues.

EXACTLY, THAT.

The scoring/raking/points system (whatever you want to call it) needs to be changed, based on the skill of the players and NOT on the ammount of games they play! ffs!

When I stop seeing people with 100 wins out of 400 games in ethernal (and this time not due to getting bad people in the team, I actually played with some of them and saw they had 0 skill) and I see instead skillful players that are very difficult to kill and manage to turn out the tables in a match, even having played "only" 100 games, then, and only then, the leagues will be fixed and there will be much less raging.

We really want this to work, because the games is super cool and some of us are hoocked to it. So we are giving you ideas on how to make the matchmaking/points system work, please have a very long meeting discussing the alternatives, get some statistician to work out which would be the best mode and TEST, TEST, TEST !! You are announcing that this is a Beta, so then try different stuff! If during one season the matchmaking goes worse because you are trying a different algorithm, I will not complain! As long as you try a different one or adjust that one in the next season (you could do shorter seasons maybe to try this things out). However, this has not been the case as far as I know.

You now have the time to make the things right guys, I really hope you take this chance and fix the game.

Da_Wolv
3rd Mar 2016, 12:43
You did count as relevant: Nosgoth Unique Players gaming frequency, Play Time periods length in
A - Nosgoth with Leagues running
vs
B - ?

Is B a year old data of Nosgoth before the leagues existed? (That data cannot be relevant)
Is B composed of short periods of time after the league endings like the beginning of December? That data cannot be relevant because of player exhaustion and the rest they get in those exact days.
Is B composed of morning/midday Nosgoth stats when leagues ran 8 peak hours a day?..
THIS

You just got schooled, son. Because Science.



I've made an extensive point on that in the previous League announcement post (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=185638&p=2196388#post2196388) and I hope you had or will have the time to read it! We even had some nice chilled discussion with Da_Wolv and the other guys there.
ya - I can be chill - if I am presented with actual arguments and we can have a discussion and not just get poo flung in my face and then get the brilliant apology "Sorry if you don't like it, but since its in your face now, might as well eat up and enjoy."




The scoring/raking/points system (whatever you want to call it) needs to be changed, based on the skill of the players and NOT on the ammount of games they play! ffs!
Honestly, I don't even know how anyone came up with this system.
If you have a ranked ladder then sure, just pair people up with other players in their actual skill range, not within their rank. Its so smart. If a new football team wants to enter in their regional league, they should be forced to play against Real Madrid first, and if they cant win, they should GTFO - like seriously - such noobs.



When I stop seeing people with 100 wins out of 400 games in ethernal [...] and only then, the leagues will be fixed and there will be much less raging.
Amen to that.

Farnbeak
3rd Mar 2016, 13:04
vampirelucky,

I wanted to reply to you specifically about that "correlation doesn't equal causation" point.

How can you say that River_ can't come up with valid conclusions using that graph and his knowledge of event sequence? Of course those conclusions are not absolutely guaranteed to be true (he says "I am pretty sure", thats subjective), nonskewed or detailed enough, but will you really argue about Launcher -> running Nosgoth application increase? I mean do you really even need a graph for that causation or common sense is enough in that case? :)

I agree that there can always be better or more motivated (paid) analysts out there, but that shouldn't stop us from doing our own analysis, especially when they're not here to share their findings and data and even then they'd have a conflict of interests. So however good the analysis they present it can't be absolutely reliable either. Being part of the election process in Russia has taught me a thing or two I guess.

Personally I find this piece of data highly relevant to the discussion we have here (sorry for the hardcore formatting, its fun!):

Month______Avg. Players___Gain___% Gain___Peak Players_____________Relevant Events

July 2015____773.4 _____+79.9_____+11.52%_____ 1,842 ____ League short alphas
August 2015__1,073.7_____+300.2 ___ +38.82%____ 2,119 ____ League novelty for new players (+promotion)
September 2015 735.7_____-337.9_____-31.47%_____1,644 ____ over (and they're done for good)
October 2015__826.7_____+90.9_____+12.36%_____1,763 ____ League +$$$ prizes!!! (some returned+some new guys)
November 2015 685.0_____-141.7_____-17.14%______1,561 ____ exhaustion and frustration (no ez $, no fixes)
December 2015_791.7_____+106.7_____+15.58%____ 2,051 ____ Launcher implemented 16-18 Dec
January 2016__1,086.4____+294.7____+37.23%_____2,027 ____ Launcher + holidays + SC map
February 2016_ 1,078.5_____-8.0_____-0.73%______ 1,945 ____ 'wheres my BM?' silence

You can ignore my comments above safely, but the data itself has value.
Keeping the launcher influence in mind IMO it shows the failed expectations set on Leagues and its a good sign changes could help. But you're free to make your own conclusions - on the success of Leagues in particular.

Vampmaster
3rd Mar 2016, 15:04
Regarding your question about meshes.
We still need to sign off on future League rewards, but in general we do want to try and get more Vampire content into them. I'm not sure if mesh changes are planned to be honest, we're investigating potentially broadening the types of prizing that might be available. We can speak about that a bit more, later down the line.

That's a shame, because it seems like the humans are getting new and highly varied meshes all the time, while even the marked skins were only recoloured versions of existing skins. It just feels like come classes (particularly the humans) are getting preferential treatment in terms of diversity of appearance. It's understandable that the 3D artists are busy with the new classes, but please come back to this once their schedules free up a bit. BTW, I'm not exclusively referring to the league rewards. My point applies whether they're purchasable or winable in other ways besides league.

MuShYRoOM
3rd Mar 2016, 16:49
Now its the opportunity to lower the requirement for the reward to gold.
Then we will see after mid-month, if the majority was playing league because of the reward or because of fun.

ParadoxicalOmen
4th Mar 2016, 02:00
Now its the opportunity to lower the requirement for the reward to gold.
Then we will see after mid-month, if the majority was playing league because of the reward or because of fun.

Personally i like Leagues cause it's much faster to find matches this way...i hate having to wait almost 30 mins for a match in regular TDM (long time to find a server, not to mention when i do ppl keep leaving and re-queuing).

I feel like i'm the only one that has similar experience in TDM and Leagues in terms of match balance. They don't seem so different for me, so i welcome Leagues. (but i must say this League's rewards seems rather 'meh' like the last one...although they didn't show the skin yet, im assuming its just a repaint)

Da_Wolv
4th Mar 2016, 08:41
I feel like i'm the only one that has similar experience in TDM and Leagues in terms of match balance. They don't seem so different for me, so i welcome Leagues. (but i must say this League's rewards seems rather 'meh' like the last one...although they didn't show the skin yet, im assuming its just a repaint)

The difference is, when I am in a TDM match, I don't care if someone is being a total noob. I try to help and give hints, and if they respond with ignorance and complaints, I'll just forget about them and move on..
In a ranked match - even if I just play because nothing else is up - you are constantly reminded of how this one idiot in your team is costing you points and progression. So this League I will skip - meaning I will just have to play ESL without warming up.

ParadoxicalOmen
4th Mar 2016, 21:29
The difference is, when I am in a TDM match, I don't care if someone is being a total noob. I try to help and give hints, and if they respond with ignorance and complaints, I'll just forget about them and move on..
In a ranked match - even if I just play because nothing else is up - you are constantly reminded of how this one idiot in your team is costing you points and progression. So this League I will skip - meaning I will just have to play ESL without warming up.

I see your point, but most matches are "noob balanced"...which by that I mean, if you think you are suffering from a new player on your team, in reality the other team is also.
In other words...most matches, if you look at the score, you'll see the enemy team also has a new player doing low dmg, with bad kill/death ratio. But they did a better job at "carrying"...

Da_Wolv
5th Mar 2016, 10:30
I see your point, but most matches are "noob balanced"...which by that I mean, if you think you are suffering from a new player on your team, in reality the other team is also.
In other words...most matches, if you look at the score, you'll see the enemy team also has a new player doing low dmg, with bad kill/death ratio. But they did a better job at "carrying"...

This is true to some extend, though there are different kinds of noobs:
1) The Pounce Reaver
The Pounce Reaver likes to keep to himself. He sits atop a roof, waiting for a weak enemy standing still long enough for him to hit him. While his team is dying, he waits patiently to strike... and dies instantly when he does.
2) The Guy with 2 Left Hands
His aim is... virtually nonexistant. Even if he shoved his gun up the vampires nose, he would still miss.
3) The Run Perk Scout
I hear/see a vampire close to me or my team? Better turn on Camo and run away.
4) The MLG Sentinel
What are tutorials again? How do I fly without activating my ability?
You know what? I'll just slowly fly toward the 2 scouts and grab one..

These 4 types are what lose you games. Either they don't engage with you, either too early or too late and die alone, compromise the positions or simply hit nothing, eventhough they are in the fight with you.

These make up a tiny minority (thankfully), yet they always find themselves into MY team.
Other players might be bad, but at least they use their abilities (if not always on time or perfectly, but at least they don't forget the have them), they try to engage with the team and maybe hit half their shots.

The problem with the matchmaking is that it uses MMR instead of Ranks.
So I didn't play all week (coz ranked) and I wanted to help out a friend that is going for the moneyz.
Somehow, our team gets stacked with low MMR noobs (to counter his and mine) while the enemy team gets mediocre players in counter to their high MMR players... and yet - everyone is already in low-high Gold, while I am still in Silver III.

This is why I cannot take ranked seriously. If I miss a week of ranked, why do I have to play my Bronze-Gold matches against Eternals and Bloods all the same? Sure, my MMR is as high as theirs, but how does the rank even matter at that point?
Just remove ranked and give us money according to our MMR number - saves me a lot of grind.

The_Dapper_Sapper
5th Mar 2016, 12:11
@Da_Wolv You forgot the backstab deceiver who thinks nobody will notice him running around in his disguise.

Dron1508
5th Mar 2016, 12:24
And Great-Warlord Summoners, huge fans of casting ghouls, proudly observing batlle from the roof with no participation.

Endsequenz
5th Mar 2016, 12:37
This is true to some extend, though there are different kinds of noobs:
1) The Pounce Reaver
The Pounce Reaver likes to keep to himself. He sits atop a roof, waiting for a weak enemy standing still long enough for him to hit him. While his team is dying, he waits patiently to strike... and dies instantly when he does.
2) The Guy with 2 Left Hands
His aim is... virtually nonexistant. Even if he shoved his gun up the vampires nose, he would still miss.
3) The Run Perk Scout
I hear/see a vampire close to me or my team? Better turn on Camo and run away.
4) The MLG Sentinel
What are tutorials again? How do I fly without activating my ability?
You know what? I'll just slowly fly toward the 2 scouts and grab one..


Pretty good stuff there. :D
I see myself as a 2 sometimes, tending to a 4.
Or just as the alc!
He´s coming for ya... he´s going to getcha.....
wait - they are 3!
Whare is my team? TEAM?????
dead...

Or yeah - a sneaky deceiver. Especially against these tournament tryhards.
I don´t know.. yeah - i heard they are playing tournaments all day.
Making a good living of it.
They play without music.
Like ..how can you play without music? Gosh... can´t even get away from that spawn. QQ QQ QQ ....TEAM????

;)

SvPaass
5th Mar 2016, 12:39
I'll just add my voice to the many and keep my question short.

I understand you guys are busy atm but are you ever going to address the grinding part of league? Since its one of the main problems people have with ranked.
It could be I missed a reply in this thread, if not, address this please.

Or you could be honest about what you created and just call it Grindfest Beta 6.0

Raptr0s
7th Mar 2016, 20:50
You're right Vampmaster, the prizes during League Betas are certainly a draw. Ranking is too, as is the lower leaver rate in League games. There are a quite a few reasons why people choose to play more Nosgoth while Leagues are available to them, and we would like to keep that choice available to players as often as we can.

Regarding your question about meshes.
We still need to sign off on future League rewards, but in general we do want to try and get more Vampire content into them. I'm not sure if mesh changes are planned to be honest, we're investigating potentially broadening the types of prizing that might be available. We can speak about that a bit more, later down the line.

As mentioned before, bug fixes for Leagues are on the way, they have however been held up due to the recent patch delay. Generally, the amount of time that we have to test different Leagues configurations isn't indefinite. Changing the minimum level requirement might seem like a small change to you guys, which is understandable, mechanically it is a minor tweak. It does however have the potential to have quite a large impact on how new players approach Nosgoth, play the game, and ultimately how long the stick around. This is pretty darn important to any game, Free to Play in particular. If increasing the minimum requirement drops the number of new players we have returning to the game by 15%, that's a big problem. This test is important and does need to happen. There are absolutely other factors to be taken into consideration as well, we will not be ignoring those.

There's not a huge point to arguing about what does and doesn't constitute mid-season, that's inconsequential as to whether or not we will be stopping beta 6.0. Once a season commences, we're quite averse to the idea of ending it, regardless of how long it has been running for. Ensuring that future seasons happen at a better cadence for everyone is what I'm working to make happen at the moment.

Hey Ogham,

Just gunna give a little more feedback, being a regular player of Nosgoth, and someone who's reached eternal before.

I must say, leagues are fun. I personally enjoy them quite a bit, but I haven't played league for a few seasons, for a few reasons in particular.

The main reason why I haven't played is because of the prizes. I don't much care for the Sentinel, so I didn't mind missing out of a special version of his new ability. I also think golden weapons are kind of pretentious, so I skipped the beastmasters shotgun as well.

I do, however, love remeshes. I always, always use my Bloody Victor skins for the Hunter and Alchemist, very well made and gritty looking skins. I love them. Anything new and unique, especially if it's rare, makes me happy and it makes me want to fight for it.

Gold shotguns, meh, flashy sentinel power? Pass. Tyrant skin? Yes please.

Although, I hear it's a recolor for the base skin, so blegh, I'd rather wear ones I've actually purchased. I'm sure a lot of people will say that it's a little unfair that the humans get these badass skins while the vampires just get recolors. I agree and I like humans more, heh.

So for my first reason, if the prizes aren't to my liking, I seem to pass up on leagues, so for me PERSONALLY, prizes are definitely an incentive, depending on what I end up taking a liking to.

The flashier and more unique the prize, the better chance I'm going to fight tooth and nail for it.

Anyways, another reason, the way league points are distributed seems.... jaded... if that's the right word for it.

It seems to me like it's up to chance whether or not you get points, and what I mean by that is whether you win or lose. Sure, soloing leagues is risky, but even with a friend, you still only make half a team. There are times where I've done well for what I was dealt, only to lose points.

It really makes or breaks the feeling of league. If you're certain you're going to lose against opposition much better than you and your team, it just really makes me not want to play the rest of the match. It makes me want to type in /surrender and just move on to the next league match.

To me, that just feels like busy-work. I feel like I shouldn't only be bothered if I know I'm going to win, or at least have a good chance. I feel like there needs to be incentive to fight to your last breath, especially if you're getting outright slammed by your opposition.

I feel like the league should measure up you and yours, then determine how well you did amongst them, how much damage you did, heals you dealt, takedowns you got, final blows, your placement, hell, if you can even program it, how many times you've saved a teammate from certain death!

If I were to lose, even decisively lose a match, but still gain a few points for my efforts, I'd play more for sure. I'd say change the point system all together, because it's either -3 or +14. That's how it looks in my eyes.

Whats even more frustrating is snatching that precious win and only getting 2 or 3 points. Why even bother at that point, and why did I get so few points? Did I play too much that day? I feel like it could be a little more clear.

Anyways, reason 2 is because of how you move up the ladder. It feels forced, jaded, and up to chance, and I'm sick of flipping a coin to win, especially when I constantly opp the more "suspicious" players.

The third and final reason is stress. AS I'm sure you're aware, the way leagues are handled is stressful, especially if you only really move up is by winning.

However, my personal stressor is classes. I am so, so exhausted of playing matches that never fail to have 2 or more scouts and 2 or more sentinels.

For the love of god please play a different class for once. Where are all the high leveled Reavers? The Decievers?!

Where are all the Vanguards?! The higher leveled hunters?

Well, the Vanguard hardly ever registers, so that's why, but jeezle.

It's just.... the same. So samey. You got your APA or APT BT flowchart sens and your classic persuit, or should I say "Flee" scouts.

I just do NOT care to play leagues when I'm almost certain the roster will be two of those two classes without fail.

Bluh, that's all I can think of for the moment, I hope my feedback holds some sort of candle amongst the blaze of other opinions.

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to read what I had to say, it means a lot.

Heres to the continuation and evolution of Nosgoth! I'm excited to see what it will be in the future, because it most definitely has great potential!

TheDreamcrusher
8th Mar 2016, 04:55
At this point, I can't even imagine what the work dynamic for this game is like. There are a handful of Psyonix divisions contributing different portions, which is convoluted enough, and on top of that Square Enix is handing down edicts on how to handle the game to someone. Are the devs asleep in the offices? Does the enormous amount of conference calls slow down production? Who knows.

The development speed is abysmal though. I've never seen anything like it, not with the size of the producing company (SE). Month after month they throw $10,000 dollars at beta leagues which are...

The responses and lack of responses to suggestions or queries are pretty disheartening though.

Forum poster: "What are you doing about this?"

Community manager/dev response: "We're currently not working on that now."

Really? What are you thoughts? Is there a timeline? A clue? A vision?

Forum poster: "What are you doing about that?"

*crickets*

Whatever, man. People have tried. I've tried. Tried to put up feedback and info for the company but as far I can tell, there's a script that they're told to post by and that's all they get to do. A lot of folks on this forum have good insight and experience with other games and we've brought that knowledge here for free, some of us with a lot of passion for the related LoK series, or people like myself because this is a great game at the foundation but it's unfinished.

What Raptr0s said about the league matches is true too. The matches are stale because the same classes get played because they've been tried and tested as the most effective. Can't have enough prophets with Eldritch Shield though, and great scouts are match dominating. Sentinels lag waggling during abduct are a real pain to hit, and 2 or 3 ragewave charge tyrants is a lot of health to try to burn through.

"Are balance changes coming in the future?"

*crickets*

--Ram--
8th Mar 2016, 11:06
"Are balance changes coming in the future?"

"Yes, we are going to release a super class with more mobility than vamps and buffs that allow two good players to beat a time by themselves, you can look forward to that SOON.

ParadoxicalOmen
8th Mar 2016, 21:11
"Yes, we are going to release a super class with more mobility than vamps and buffs that allow two good players to beat a time by themselves, you can look forward to that SOON.

I've been talking with a friend about how BM might be OP with his bird form...and does anyone remember my fall damage suggestion to the Reaver's pounce?
The idea was basically to add fall damage to the ability, for the times when you pounced a human off a ledge or bridge.
http://i.imgur.com/nckF5k5.jpg?1

credit to Farnbeak for the img.


If this was incorporated, it would be a really good counter for the BM...making his bird form more of a risk and therefor less OP (not to mention the Pounce is a basic ability which all players have access already...)

EDIT: Found my thread: forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=157970

kLauE187
9th Mar 2016, 00:02
I've been talking with a friend about how BM might be OP with his bird form...and does anyone remember my fall damage suggestion to the Reaver's pounce?
The idea was basically to add fall damage to the ability, for the times when you pounced a human off a ledge or bridge.
http://i.imgur.com/nckF5k5.jpg?1

credit to Farnbeak for the img.


If this was incorporated, it would be a really good counter for the BM...making his bird form more of a risk and therefor less OP (not to mention the Pounce is a basic ability which all players have access already...)

EDIT: Found my thread: forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=157970

pounce is completely useless in the current state. wont change after bm got released. you could just grab bm midflight, way easier than pounce.

TheDreamcrusher
9th Mar 2016, 00:04
I've been talking with a friend about how BM might be OP with his bird form...and does anyone remember my fall damage suggestion to the Reaver's pounce?
The idea was basically to add fall damage to the ability, for the times when you pounced a human off a ledge or bridge.
http://i.imgur.com/nckF5k5.jpg?1

credit to Farnbeak for the img.


If this was incorporated, it would be a really good counter for the BM...making his bird form more of a risk and therefor less OP (not to mention the Pounce is a basic ability which all players have access already...)

EDIT: Found my thread: forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=157970

It's yet to be seen how many abilities you get to use in bird form. You may only have Swoop or Wrath of the Firebird but both would be very strong. However, Swoop and Powershot is gonna be a tough combo to deal with. Beastmaster will have the aerial view of a sentinel and a version of Dive Bomb to interrupt attacking vampires.

I'm guessing Dominate Mind will be the hard counter to BMs who like to fly too high or too often. First tick of damage should cause them to drop, but that will break Dominate Mind if the impact damage is high enough.

Raptr0s
9th Mar 2016, 19:53
I've been talking with a friend about how BM might be OP with his bird form...and does anyone remember my fall damage suggestion to the Reaver's pounce?
The idea was basically to add fall damage to the ability, for the times when you pounced a human off a ledge or bridge.
http://i.imgur.com/nckF5k5.jpg?1

credit to Farnbeak for the img.


If this was incorporated, it would be a really good counter for the BM...making his bird form more of a risk and therefor less OP (not to mention the Pounce is a basic ability which all players have access already...)

EDIT: Found my thread: forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=157970

Kind of a scary idea. While I've always though about this being a thing, I'm afraid skilled savage pouncers could snag one hit kills from pounces, and to me, that's just a LITTLE bit too good, seeing that savage pounce can do, around 800 damage or so? Especially with the impact damage talent.


pounce is completely useless in the current state. wont change after bm got released. you could just grab bm midflight, way easier than pounce.

What on earth are you talking about. Pounce is pretty much on par with everything else.


It's yet to be seen how many abilities you get to use in bird form. You may only have Swoop or Wrath of the Firebird but both would be very strong. However, Swoop and Powershot is gonna be a tough combo to deal with. Beastmaster will have the aerial view of a sentinel and a version of Dive Bomb to interrupt attacking vampires.

I'm guessing Dominate Mind will be the hard counter to BMs who like to fly too high or too often. First tick of damage should cause them to drop, but that will break Dominate Mind if the impact damage is high enough.

Still though, dropping him from high up and starting his cooldown early is always a plus, even If you only get a few seconds of dom time.

I agree though, the first tick should break his threshawk form.

The Divebomb powershot two-piece combo DOES sound scary on paper... Wonder how effective it would be in-game

It could have the potential of being worse than a skimmer sentinel.


At this point, I can't even imagine what the work dynamic for this game is like. There are a handful of Psyonix divisions contributing different portions, which is convoluted enough, and on top of that Square Enix is handing down edicts on how to handle the game to someone. Are the devs asleep in the offices? Does the enormous amount of conference calls slow down production? Who knows.

The development speed is abysmal though. I've never seen anything like it, not with the size of the producing company (SE). Month after month they throw $10,000 dollars at beta leagues which are...

The responses and lack of responses to suggestions or queries are pretty disheartening though.

Forum poster: "What are you doing about this?"

Community manager/dev response: "We're currently not working on that now."

Really? What are you thoughts? Is there a timeline? A clue? A vision?

Forum poster: "What are you doing about that?"

*crickets*

Whatever, man. People have tried. I've tried. Tried to put up feedback and info for the company but as far I can tell, there's a script that they're told to post by and that's all they get to do. A lot of folks on this forum have good insight and experience with other games and we've brought that knowledge here for free, some of us with a lot of passion for the related LoK series, or people like myself because this is a great game at the foundation but it's unfinished.

What Raptr0s said about the league matches is true too. The matches are stale because the same classes get played because they've been tried and tested as the most effective. Can't have enough prophets with Eldritch Shield though, and great scouts are match dominating. Sentinels lag waggling during abduct are a real pain to hit, and 2 or 3 ragewave charge tyrants is a lot of health to try to burn through.

"Are balance changes coming in the future?"

*crickets*

Oh god I forgot all about rage Tyrants. Man, if you ask me, they should only get a damage buff if they are actually HURT, rather than a buff from just popping the skill.

I mean, I got hit for 414 (I believe) from one uncharged melee attack. If I wasn't mistaken... that's some ass.

Not to mention the Tyrants own version of "Skimming". Hit em with a grab (which is dumb-broken btw) or a wave, then before the canned animation is even finished, be in your face with a charge or charge attack. Sure Vampires are supposed to be better in 1v1s for the most part, but it should be because of how you use the vampire, NOT because he can link his skills.

Bluh, /rant.

I really wanted to comment o0n your view of their communication, or lack thereof.

I play APB:R, a game notorious for silly development decisions and lack of communication.

It's so bad that they announced a release of two new in-game vehicles, (A pretty big deal in APB), released one, then just completely forgot about the other one.

Literally not a single mention of it since it's initial reveal.

Crazy yeah?

Just because they reply with scripted nonsense or don't reply at all DOESN'T necessarily mean they aren't reading.

I know, it's jarring and kind of off putting not to hear anything, or getting a "hush up we're working" reply, but know this...

If devs were to start confirming/promising things, it can turn into ****... fast.

The moment they're a day late, or a promise doesn't go through, all hell breaks loose and the playerbase turns to a toxic cesspool of "I TOLD YOU SO"s.

Hell, I've read things on the APB forums that are downright embarrassing. Players come up with ridiculous speculations because of what devs said, then immediately get irritated when their outlandish predictions don't come true.

It's one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations.

Either way, they're going to catch flak for what they do.

Don't say a word and you'll never have to worry about not following through on promises, but you'll get *****ed at for being silent.

Share the details and you'll have community support for the stuff they like, but get jeered at for the stuff they don't and sub sequentially, get chewed out for it.

But I'm rambling....

All we can do is hope they read what we have to say, and that they have enough leeway with their bosses to implement a thing or two.

kLauE187
9th Mar 2016, 21:54
What on earth are you talking about. Pounce is pretty much on par with everything else.

You can dodge a pounce into almost every direction with either melee or melee-roll. Good luck hitting a good player with it. Not to mention that most pounce reaver just bait there team for distraction and miss most of the times.

itsRagnaros
9th Mar 2016, 23:16
Hey, I'll put it simple... this "ranked" system is totally flawed, it is centered around accommodating average-low tier players/while punishing the top tier players. Let's just think about it, anyone who has played any competitive game, a ranked mode enables you to choose your team. People complain, oh the esl teams are always winning, the games get boring. How about waking up, a ranked system, is only a ranked system when the better players are at the top of the leader board,and the average players in the middle, with the bottom tier at the bottom. If your problem is fighting a 4 stack, then go find yourself a 4-stack like everyother game. Psyonix, please stop focusing on making everyone happy, and make your game centered around a skill based ladder, rather than focusing on games played. Open 4 stack parties to league, at least that way, your "competitive" side will at least get to practice and not be forced to play league as duo all day as it is focused around games played.

I mitht be wrong, but hey it's my experience/opinion from playing other good shooter's. Make the rewards for skins easy to attain so the "avg-low tier players don't complain"

There that's a simple solution

Enjoy...

TheDreamcrusher
10th Mar 2016, 00:05
It's one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations.

Either way, they're going to catch flak for what they do.



It might be. A lot of people, myself included, have tried to make suggestions to improve the game but most of the time we have absolutely no idea where the game is going and what level of acknowledgement there is going on with the suggestions.

I think Savage Pounce can hit for 525 or 550 on initial impact with the talent at max. Really, one of the better suggestions I ever read was to make Leap Attack the default reaver special ability. That would help newcomers quite a bit. Pounce punishes them for learning and using an initially available ability that doesn't work very well when in mid- and high-level play.

ParadoxicalOmen
11th Mar 2016, 23:45
It might be. A lot of people, myself included, have tried to make suggestions to improve the game but most of the time we have absolutely no idea where the game is going and what level of acknowledgement there is going on with the suggestions.

The team is having some issues for sure...either a shortage of resources (no money for programmers for example), or had ppl reallocated to the Rocket League game (since its more successful). Cause i feel less interaction from them, comparing from the Alpha and close beta times...

I remember the suggestion threads were given more consideration...now it feel like it's two separate worlds, one where we are debating about the game, and the other where the devs carry out their "to do" list.
So, to me, only when they are finished will they consider suggestions from us...even though i believe this, i wont stop coming here and giving ideas and feedback :nut:

Phobophobian
13th Mar 2016, 00:25
Any reason why Occult items are not dropping for players in league 6.0?

enkaku-silence-
20th Mar 2016, 16:47
Could it be that the 2100 runes Tyrant skin was originally intended as league reward? Because he kind of looks like a bloody victor.

Ysanoire
21st Mar 2016, 16:22
League points are still broken. I don't play ranked anymore ever since I became aware of the problems but I am STILL LOSING POINTS, even though I didn't play a single ranked match for days. It seems to be 4 points at a time, as if the system thought I left a ranked game, but it's hard to be sure. If this causes me to lose my blood reward I will be quite annoyed.

I resent the way you refused to change anything mid season because that'd be 'moving goalposts', but when you broke the mode, you just left it like this. It's been a week now, with 11 days remaining.

Vampmaster
21st Mar 2016, 16:38
League points are still broken. I don't play ranked anymore ever since I became aware of the problems but I am STILL LOSING POINTS, even though I didn't play a single ranked match for days. It seems to be 4 points at a time, as if the system thought I left a ranked game, but it's hard to be sure. If this causes me to lose my blood reward I will be quite annoyed.

I resent the way you refused to change anything mid season because that'd be 'moving goalposts', but when you broke the mode, you just left it like this. It's been a week now, with 11 days remaining.

It kind of feels like they already did move the goalposts mid season. If something is broken, fix it. If something was deliberately changed part way through the season, put it back.

Hellboy_007
22nd Mar 2016, 01:48
I didn't play several day. The number of matches/victories/defeats hasn't changed. But I have lost 16 points.
I have played one match with the full bonus pool today.
I have received 1 point.

I think, time has come to remove this game and to forget as a bad dream.