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Oghamsmith
11th Feb 2016, 15:10
With so much speculation surrounding the Beastmaster and how he'll play, particularly with regards to his Treshawk form, we figured the best way to clear things up would be to simply show you. You've been asking to see the Beastmaster in action and here he is, hot off the presses!

Presenting, the Beastmaster:

DYR-nIqTHAE

For those wondering when they can get their hands on Nosgoth's next class, we published an update about that yesterday. You can read the full details here (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=185974), but the tl;dr version is that we've got a few more bugs to crush, and a bit more polish to apply to the update as a whole before it'll be ready to be sent to your PCs. The update won't be sent out this week, but it shouldn't be too long before you get your hands on the Beastmaster.

Ysanoire
11th Feb 2016, 15:26
Wow, I really, really can't wait to play him now.

He looks gamechanging, which makes me half excited, half worried. Just the ability to get anywhere on the map...

Love the shenanigans with the nature's fury ability as well.

Gimme.

vampirelucky
11th Feb 2016, 15:48
The class looks really cool.
From the charge and recharge indicators in the video I estimate Treshawk form has about 12 seconds duration and 12 seconds cooldown, however it's unclear whether canceling the form early will reduce the cooldown like Vanguard's Bulwark.

Also the reloading mechanic of his shotgun apparently allows reloading 1 shot (shell?) at a time - similar to Alchemist's cannons.

Last but not least the Leyline buff seems to be 50% increase even though the tooltip misleadingly states it is 150% so it won't be game-brakingly OP.

SquirrelInDaSky
11th Feb 2016, 16:36
Hmm, a human class with a complete freedom of movement makes harassing vampires a lot easier.

http://img1.goodfon.su/wallpaper/big/d/ba/hellsing-hellsing-pistolet.jpg

This could add some balance.

GenFeelGood
11th Feb 2016, 16:47
I am both excited to play him and terrified to fight him, vamps are gonna get wrecked so hard at release. I have a hard time trying to rationalize why I'd ever need to play the other human classes ever again.

Vampmaster
11th Feb 2016, 16:58
I am both excited to play him and terrified to fight him, vamps are gonna get wrecked so hard at release. I have a hard time trying to rationalize why I'd ever need to play the other human classes ever again.

I know the first panel doesn't really apply here, but the rest...

Da_Wolv
11th Feb 2016, 17:10
RIP Vampires...

I love the idea, but I believe it will be hell-o-OP
Also.. I don't think it was smart to release it during a ranked season.. just saying.

GenFeelGood
11th Feb 2016, 17:46
@Vampmaster, Let's hope it doesn't take a new class to bring it back for the vamps; but I still look forward to the Rahabim and nice comic :thumb:.

@Da_Wolv, I keep think that if we are able to attack the bird that it might not be so harsh. Give it a damage threshold that turns it back into a human and/or allow special abilities to affect it. Allow us to pounce or kidnap/abduct the bird, with it turning back into a human on contact; and maybe allow us to DM the bird, then either deliver it to our teammates or allow us to send it as high as possible so there is a sizable fall damage when it turns back into a human.

Edit
Also, did anyone else notice a skin is missing? I know I saw it in the other video, what is lore behind that one? I also only counted three weapon variants when there are usually five, what are the other two?

kLauE187
11th Feb 2016, 19:17
New meta:
4 beastmaster vs 4 sent :D

Gugulug5000
11th Feb 2016, 19:56
I am more excited for the Beastmaster than I have been for any of the other classes that have been released. Well done Psyonix, but now the bar has been raised really high, and I'm expecting great things for the Rahabim. I sadly predict and series of nerfs will be incoming shortly after the Beastmaster's release. Hopefully they won't overdo it this time, like they did with the Summoner and Vanguard.

Guardian1uk
11th Feb 2016, 21:01
Just watching the vid the inital thought that springs to mind is OP AS HELL.

Birdy form can use abilities capale of doing damage mid air compaired to a senti chasing it which cant do anything to do damage, unless abduct/kidnap work on it mid air (good luck getting the aiming/timing on that right...)
Game changing is right, and atm not sure if it's in a good way or a bad way..

calypso-694
11th Feb 2016, 21:04
Looks crazy OP.

I predict he will get nerfed quickly and then become all but useless. Like Reavers. Against great players vamps won't stand a chance.

SonixSquad
11th Feb 2016, 22:06
Looks awesome but I must mirror the concerns already expressed in this thread. I agree BeastMaster looks to good to remain unnerfed and we haven't even played it yet.

Intial thoughts from first impression.
Transformation time seems too fast, too easy to use as an escape (although I understand thats the intention).
No human has an escape such as this and to top it off it can be weaponised in conjunction with an air attack.

If he takes more damage when transforming, then it may be a bit more balanced as that should be his most vulnerable point.

Da_Wolv
11th Feb 2016, 22:17
Intial thoughts from first impression.
Transformation time seems too fast, too easy to use as an escape (although I understand thats the intention).
No human has an escape such as this and to top it off it can be weaponised in conjunction with an air attack.

If he takes more damage when transforming, then it may be a bit more balanced as that should be his most vulnerable point.

Thats my biggest fear, too.

1) There needs to be a REAL cooldown for shapeshifting. If you go up on a building, you should be stuck there for at least 15s, if not 25. If you go up high, you better make sure you can afford it. Otherwise beastmaster will just out..fly enemy vampires forever.

2) The Sprint Perk for Scout is already bad enough, but if the Beastmaster can just literally avoid all damage by staying in the air for the duration of his Beast Form, then thats even worse.

3) The transformation should be cancelled when being hit and it should take a bit longer. If you can get some distance between you and vamps and you will be outmatched, thats fine; but if people can just shapeshift and fly away with 3 HP just before they die... nope!

4) How, if at all, be Vampires be able to get him out of the sky? Will Sentinels trump the Raptor - meaning, can Sentinels grab Raptors and turn them back into Humans? How about grabbing him with throw? Will any damage cancel flight? Abyssal Bolt Sniping?

Vampmaster
11th Feb 2016, 22:32
I'm sure they've already tested it at least a bit in studio, but they won't know exactly what adjustments to make until it's out there. It doesn't seem like the type of studio/budget that has hundred of testers to play for months while they perfect it. It will get balanced soon enough, but there's not much point in guessing without having even played it.

Maybe someone could ask how many testers they actually have in the Q&A? I've used all my questions though.

Halpachino
11th Feb 2016, 22:44
The problem with the beastmasters desgin is he is highly mobile. in a game of ranged vs melee the usaul desgin is to go with is to give the ranged high dps and heavy firepower and give the melee classes high mobilty or tankiness .

in nosgoths case vampires have the abilty to scale walls and get across rooftops (or fly) in order to close the distance then use various mobility skills in order to close the rest of the distance.
The problem with the beastmaster is he looks like he completely negates this mobilty advantage the vampires have and to top it all off he is one of the better humans at close range.

The only class i can see standing a chance against him is maybe a sentinel because its the only vamp able to match his mobility

Da_Wolv
11th Feb 2016, 22:48
I'm sure they've already tested it at least a bit in studio, but they won't know exactly what adjustments to make until it's out there. It doesn't seem like the type of studio/budget that has hundred of testers to play for months while they perfect it. It will get balanced soon enough, but there's not much point in guessing without having even played it.


All the more reason not to release it during a ranked season.

SonixSquad
11th Feb 2016, 23:41
Thats my biggest fear, too.

1) There needs to be a REAL cooldown for shapeshifting. If you go up on a building, you should be stuck there for at least 15s, if not 25. If you go up high, you better make sure you can afford it. Otherwise beastmaster will just out..fly enemy vampires forever.
Actually thats a very good point. Sure you can fly but I doubt fall damage has been removed which means you need to plan your flight trip well (if flight timer runs out mid-air, you transform back and drop?) or risk getting stuck on a roof and vulnerable to climbing predators whilst awaiting your shapeshift cooldown.



2) The Sprint Perk for Scout is already bad enough, but if the Beastmaster can just literally avoid all damage by staying in the air for the duration of his Beast Form, then thats even worse.

The first thing that came to mind in terms of team layout, grapple scout + beastmaster. Roof domination.



4) How, if at all, be Vampires be able to get him out of the sky? Will Sentinels trump the Raptor - meaning, can Sentinels grab Raptors and turn them back into Humans? How about grabbing him with throw? Will any damage cancel flight? Abyssal Bolt Sniping?


The only class i can see standing a chance against him is maybe a sentinel because its the only vamp able to match his mobility

Sure is going to be interesting finding out! Sentinel seems the most obvious counter.

Ygdrasel
12th Feb 2016, 00:26
New meta:
4 beastmaster vs 4 sent :D

If nobody arranges for a screenshot of four treshawks harassing Raziel's statue in The Fane, I will be very disappointed.

Overall, awesome video. Looks like it'll take some definite balancing though.
Can't wait though. Shotgun class is my jam.

But if no Dark Eden map eventually comes, this whole class is just a cruel tease.

Vampmaster
12th Feb 2016, 00:51
If nobody arranges for a screenshot of four treshawks harassing Raziel's statue in The Fane, I will be very disappointed.

Overall, awesome video. Looks like it'll take some definite balancing though.
Can't wait though. Shotgun class is my jam.

But if no Dark Eden map eventually comes, this whole class is just a cruel tease.

I think we need one more vampire territory so we're at four each and then Dark Eden after that. Everything in the lore points Dark Eden being a human territory. I keep thinking of the DE tower being like in one episode of Doctor Who where, as he puts it "the bigger on the inside starts to leak out". It could look really strange like all the rooms had been flung out and rubble partly buried, since that happens after many centuries.

TheDreamcrusher
12th Feb 2016, 01:40
Meta will be something like 2 scouts, 2 beastmasters. Beastmasters will scout and harass with Wrath of the Firebird protected by long shots from scouts. Scouts may use grappling hook or not. Both scouts AND beastmasters have a stun and knockback on demand and great damage. Beastmaster has on demand large AoE damage with an air-burst Nature's Fury and can annihilate illusions and ghouls with his main weapon much easier than the alchemist could ever hope to without using Light Bomb. War Bows might be really tough to deal with.

What's with all the close range human specialists? What can be expected to seen on the vampire side?

senjuj
12th Feb 2016, 10:12
can you state those who checked bm and approved?:rolleyes:

Oghamsmith
12th Feb 2016, 12:23
It's very interesting to see all of this theory crafting taking place.

As some of you have already highlighted, the Beastmaster introduces the potential for quite a considerable shift in Nosgoth's meta. It's going to take players and teams a while to adjust to this as a result. Try to keep an open mind as to how you both play, and counter, the Beastmaster upon his first release. It's probably going to take at least two weeks before the majority of players start to adapt to his introduction (it'll be faster for many of you, I know).

A few of you have asked whether or not it's possible to attack him while in his Treshawk form. You can indeed. One thing to point out is that the Treshawk doesn't move quite as fast as you might think. I've managed to land a Savage Pounce onto one, and have had an Air Strike take me out while in bird form (it hit me from behind). I haven't seen a successful abduction attempt(the Treshawk is a fairly nimble fellow), so I'm afraid I can't comment on that atm.

The Beastmaster is absolutely going to shake things up, and during his initial release window it may seem like you're being killed by him a lot more often than other classes (as everyone is trying to figure him out and seeing if he's their new favorite Human). I would say, give him a chance. Give it a bit of time for the maelstrom of madness to settle down, and people to shift back to choosing the class that's more suitable for the situation at hand. Everyone's extremely excited to try him out, so you're going to see him a fair bit initially. I know I can't wait to try him in the wild :).

Oh, and as for who tests the Beastmaster internally. Most, if not all, of the people working on the game have played him at least a couple of times and provided feedback where appropriate. Obviously a designer's input on balance is going to carry much more weight than the opinions of someone in marketing though.

Vampmaster
12th Feb 2016, 12:34
It's very interesting to see all of this theory crafting taking place.

As some of you have already highlighted, the Beastmaster introduces the potential for quite a considerable shift in Nosgoth's meta. It's going to take players and teams a while to adjust to this as a result. Try to keep an open mind as to how you both play, and counter, the Beastmaster upon his first release. It's probably going to take at least two weeks before the majority of players start to adapt to his introduction (it'll be faster for many of you, I know).

A few of you have asked whether or not it's possible to attack him while in his Treshawk form. You can indeed. One thing to point out is that the Treshawk doesn't move quite as fast as you might think. I've managed to land a Savage Pounce onto one, and have had an Air Strike take me out while in bird form (it hit me from behind). I haven't seen a successful abduction attempt(the Treshawk is a fairly nimble fellow), so I'm afraid I can't comment on that atm.

The Beastmaster is absolutely going to shake things up, and during his initial release window it may seem like you're being killed by him a lot more often than other classes (as everyone is trying to figure him out and seeing if he's their new favorite Human). I would say, give him a chance. Give it a bit of time for the maelstrom of madness to settle down, and people to shift back to choosing the class that's more suitable for the situation at hand. Everyone's extremely excited to try him out, so you're going to see him a fair bit initially. I know I can't wait to try him in the wild :).

Oh, and as for who tests the Beastmaster internally. Most, if not all, of the people working on the game have played him at least a couple of times and provided feedback where appropriate. Obviously a designer's input on balance is going to carry much more weight than the opinions of someone in marketing though.

I was mostly asking how many people are involved in testing than who does it. If it's only a small number, I'd say it's unreasonable to expect it to be completely balanced bug free right from the start.

"Maelstrom of Madness" - So who gets that ability. :D

lucinvampire
12th Feb 2016, 13:17
I wondered if there are/going to be different skins for the Treshawk? I really want a purple one! :p :D

He looks well cool, definitely going to bring some mayhem to the game. I can’t wait to give him a try!...and spend the other half of my time running away screaming like a girl.


If nobody arranges for a screenshot of four treshawks harassing Raziel's statue in The Fane, I will be very disappointed.

Knowing us…it’ll come to be :)

Ygdrasel
12th Feb 2016, 21:30
I've managed to land a Savage Pounce onto one

Sounds like an ideal Daily Challenge. :D


I was mostly asking how many people are involved in testing than who does it. If it's only a small number, I'd say it's unreasonable to expect it to be completely balanced bug free right from the start.

I'd say that's unreasonable regardless of team size. Balance and bugtesting isn't magic, and the actual players will always find new ways to break a game. This will definitely be a bit of a chaotic addition to start though.


I wondered if there are/going to be different skins for the Treshawk?

Given that the treshawk is particularly singled out akin to an item/skill, this seems all but certain.
And I dunno, I can't ever get anybody willing to put a hold on the game to orchestrate some good shots. :p Still out to surround Turel's statue with tyrants of various skins. (Though by chance, I do grab some great end-of-match shots, including one where a Deceiver looked like it was imitating the Crucifixion. XD)

ParadoxicalOmen
13th Feb 2016, 00:33
A few of you have asked whether or not it's possible to attack him while in his Treshawk form. You can indeed. One thing to point out is that the Treshawk doesn't move quite as fast as you might think. I've managed to land a Savage Pounce onto one, and have had an Air Strike take me out while in bird form (it hit me from behind). I haven't seen a successful abduction attempt(the Treshawk is a fairly nimble fellow), so I'm afraid I can't comment on that atm.


This is indeed the type of thing i wanted to ask...i hope you guys have made him vulnerable to everything in his bird state.
i'd hope it is possible to do things like use Dominate Mind in his bird form :D

I wonder how some things are going to play out...like is it possible to Throw (Tyrant) him in his bird form...also, what happens if a Tyrant hits him (also bird form) upwards with Jump Attack?
And as you mentioned, how would the Abduct (Sentinel) work against him?

Would any damage take him out of his bird form? So if you hit a Pounce, Abduct, Throw, Dominate Mind etc...make him go back to his human form?

(Just me wondering btw...can't wait to test these out)

Ygdrasel
14th Feb 2016, 22:46
i'd hope it is possible to do things like use Dominate Mind in his bird form :D

I wonder how some things are going to play out...like is it possible to Throw (Tyrant) him in his bird form...also, what happens if a Tyrant hits him (also bird form) upwards with Jump Attack?
And as you mentioned, how would the Abduct (Sentinel) work against him?

Would any damage take him out of his bird form? So if you hit a Pounce, Abduct, Throw, Dominate Mindetc...make him go back to his human form?

I'd imagine that a treshawk would be squashed outright if a Tyrant grabbed hold forcefully enough for a Throw. XD
So it seems reasonable that there be a damage threshold.

If Dominate Mind pushed them out of bird form, Deceivers could gain some new value by dominating them high in the air. Fall damage and whatnot.

GenFeelGood
15th Feb 2016, 04:03
With regard to Nature's Fury, can only the Beastmaster shoot them or can teammates also take a shot at it?

Da_Wolv
15th Feb 2016, 08:26
With regard to Nature's Fury, can only the Beastmaster shoot them or can teammates also take a shot at it?

Good question, I was thinking the same thing.
On the one hand, having the team be able to shoot it opens a lot of tactical opportunities for structured play; then again, in public matches it can be bothersome of random shots trigger YOUR damage ability too early.
Mabye thats why they increased the dmg and range while midair, to compensate for that

Oghamsmith
15th Feb 2016, 14:02
To those wondering about the possibility of customizing the Treshawk skins, yes that's something that we would certainly like to offer later down the line :).


With regard to Nature's Fury, can only the Beastmaster shoot them or can teammates also take a shot at it?

I'm 90% certain only the Beastmaster can shoot the grenade. Seeking clarification on this at the moment.


UPDATE:

More news, the latest build works in the following manner:

The Beastmaster changes back to his human form when hit by crowd control (stuns, knockbakcs/downs, pounces, throws etc).
Confirmed: Only the owner of Natures Fury can detonate it early
Confirmed: The Beastmaster can be pounced, thrown, hit by an air strike AND grabbed from the air by a Sentinel while a Treshawk.

senjuj
15th Feb 2016, 17:05
can you make that leyline affect only bm? they have slow firespeed and increase only own firespeed when necessary. not hunters or scouts.

Vampmaster
15th Feb 2016, 17:38
can you make that leyline affect only bm? they have slow firespeed and increase only own firespeed when necessary. not hunters or scouts.

That would strip the creative part of the ability. It it turns out to be OP, maybe the second player could get a slightly weaker buff instead of a full additional 150%.

senjuj
15th Feb 2016, 18:59
well then could be changed vangs rousing cry to bms leyline. :rolleyes:

Oghamsmith
15th Feb 2016, 21:16
UPDATE:

More news, the latest build works in the following manner:

The Beastmaster changes back to his human form when hit by crowd control (stuns, knockbakcs/downs, pounces, throws etc).
Confirmed: Only the owner of Natures Fury can detonate it early
Confirmed: The Beastmaster can be pounced, thrown, hit by an air strike AND grabbed from the air by a Sentinel while a Treshawk.

Ysanoire
15th Feb 2016, 22:08
What about the update concerning exact release date? :P

lucinvampire
16th Feb 2016, 13:28
The Beastmaster changes back to his human form when hit by crowd control (stuns, knockbakcs/downs, pounces, throws etc).


That’s good to know, its not that you randomly after 20 seconds turn back and fall plummeting to the ground and take fall damage, though that could be amusing – its raining Beastmasters :lol:

Oghamsmith
16th Feb 2016, 14:26
What about the update concerning exact release date? :P

Unconfirmed :P


That’s good to know, its not that you randomly after 20 seconds turn back and fall plummeting to the ground and take fall damage, though that could be amusing – its raining Beastmasters :lol:

Oh, that absolutely happens as well...if you're in the Sky when your ability runs out, you will take a great deal of fall damage. Part of mastering the Treshawk is getting the most out of the bird before coming in for a safe landing.

Vampmaster
16th Feb 2016, 15:26
Unconfirmed :P



Oh, that absolutely happens as well...if you're in the Sky when your ability runs out, you will take a great deal of fall damage. Part of mastering the Treshawk is getting the most out of the bird before coming in for a safe landing.

There'd better be a reduced fall damage perk.

ParadoxicalOmen
16th Feb 2016, 20:32
UPDATE:
The Beastmaster changes back to his human form when hit by crowd control (stuns, knockbakcs/downs, pounces, throws etc).
Confirmed: The Beastmaster can be pounced, thrown, hit by an air strike AND grabbed from the air by a Sentinel while a Treshawk.

Cool, so it's safe to assume Deceiver can control him in his bird-form.

On a completely different topic (but still about BM), is there any chance on changing his voice? It sounds too acute, doesn't seem to fit well the character (at least to my view).

MasterShuriko
16th Feb 2016, 20:49
UPDATE:

More news, the latest build works in the following manner:

The Beastmaster changes back to his human form when hit by crowd control (stuns, knockbakcs/downs, pounces, throws etc).
Confirmed: Only the owner of Natures Fury can detonate it early
Confirmed: The Beastmaster can be pounced, thrown, hit by an air strike AND grabbed from the air by a Sentinel while a Treshawk.

Can a sentinel grab the bird in the air with abduct or Kidnap?

SonixSquad
16th Feb 2016, 22:01
Can a sentinel grab the bird in the air with abduct or Kidnap?

Already confirmed.




Confirmed: The Beastmaster can be pounced, thrown, hit by an air strike AND grabbed from the air by a Sentinel while a Treshawk.

lucinvampire
17th Feb 2016, 13:26
Oh, that absolutely happens as well...if you're in the Sky when your ability runs out, you will take a great deal of fall damage. Part of mastering the Treshawk is getting the most out of the bird before coming in for a safe landing.

Oh ok...that could be bad then...or amusing...or both! thank you for the heads up. :)

Oghamsmith
17th Feb 2016, 14:25
Oh ok...that could be bad then...or amusing...or both! thank you for the heads up. :)

It introduces an element of risk/reward & adds that little bit of spice to some scenarios. I like it :).

GenFeelGood
17th Feb 2016, 16:06
So any crowd control, stun, and special abilities can take the Beastmaster out of Treshawk form, that's great and it makes me look forward to facing him now.

SonixSquad
17th Feb 2016, 16:33
It introduces an element of risk/reward & adds that little bit of spice to some scenarios. I like it :).

Indeed, I like what I'm hearing so far.
One more question, can you climb or cling to walls in Treshawk form?
I know the duration of the transform is not that long to warrant extended wall climbing but would be good to know if you can climb like a vamp while in that form.
(I am guessing no, but thought I would ask anyway).

Also interested in seeing a physical model comparison to a normal Vamp. I'm guessing the Treshawk model is quite a bit smaller (as a bird/hawk would be).

Oghamsmith
17th Feb 2016, 17:03
No, you cannot climb as the Treshawk, that would be bringing him a little bit too close the Sentinel territory. The Beastmaster is already an extremely flexible class, adding the ability to climb would feel like push the class a little bit too far.

The Treshawk was originally quite small. We since increased his size to make him slightly easier to hit as a Vampire. It's been a couple of weeks since I was able to make a playtest, so my memory is somewhat foggy, but do recall him having a wingspan of what would be around 4 or 5 feet.

SonixSquad
17th Feb 2016, 17:13
Thanks for the response and confirmation Ogham.
Not too long now I hope, possibly Friday?

Oghamsmith
18th Feb 2016, 14:48
Thanks for the response and confirmation Ogham.
Not too long now I hope, possibly Friday?

We typically try to avoid releasing updates on a Friday as we don't want to be out of the office the day after any sizable patch in case something needs to be changed/fixed/rolledback. This next update is considerably bigger than anything we've released in quite a long time, so we definitely won't be releasing the update on Friday.

We're working on it though, and will get it out to you guys as soon as QA has signed off on it :).

Ygdrasel
19th Feb 2016, 00:11
That’s good to know, its not that you randomly after 20 seconds turn back and fall plummeting to the ground and take fall damage, though that could be amusing – its raining Beastmasters :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5aZJBLAu1E

Gonna be away from the machine Friday so it actually does me fine to see nothing updating then. :D

GenFeelGood
19th Feb 2016, 15:54
I'm cool with waiting but could we possibly get some more in depth details about the class (skin lore and images, also the full range of weapon variants)?

FischioTigre
25th Feb 2016, 16:45
UPDATE:
Confirmed: The Beastmaster can be pounced, thrown, hit by an air strike AND grabbed from the air by a Sentinel while a Treshawk.
what about Dominate Mind? Will we be able to control the pigeon with the deceiver ability?