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Umah Bloodomen
2nd Jul 2002, 09:19
Hey, lookie here. One of my "early" posts from the "old" forum. ;)



I've noticed a lot of posts concerning the murals from throughout the LoK series, and how they reveal the story, so I've decided to check many of them out for myself. (I knew the murals told the stories, I just never really took the time to piece them together more than what was necessary for game play). I have tried to brush myself up, the best I can, on the other "mural related" posts..I may have missed early posts though, so bear with me. (Don't want to sound like another broken record by repeating the same post topics.)

So far I've only gotten into BO2 and the beginning of SR2 (again...LOL). It's going to take me awhile to get all of the other information, so I figured the members who have studied the murals could help me out.

BO2 - Chapter 11 - Hylden City (Following the water & crate area, just before the green elevator/platform area) Lower Level

Murals Discovered:
1. Solitary ancient Hylden figure (female)
2. Same female Hylden standing alongside ancient male Hylden
3. Same female Hylden with a body (body is just a head and torso. head features pointy ears and indications of fangs, while torso has no arms)
4. Same female figure in seated position (holding a skull)

My conclusions:

Mural 1 OBVIOUSLY depicts the Seer. I would gather by the mural of her standing alone, that she was probably a prominent figure in ancient Hylden society (like a leader/ruler)

Mural 2 depicts the Seer with a male Hylden. If the Seer was of some importance in her society, this male figure would also most likely be of importance (like a military leader/warrior/ruler) I have come to the conclusion that this male Hylden figure is none other than the Sarafan Lord in his original form. At first I was inclined to believe that there was perhaps a romantic link between these 2 Hylden figures (much like that of Ariel & Nupraptor) however, I am more inclined now to believe that they are siblings (which would signify their importance to the Hylden society).

Mural 3 depicts the Seer holding a dismembered body. All that remains is a head with pointy ears, dark hair and what would appear to be fangs, along with an armless torso. There are images of some sort of conflict surrounding the 2 figures, presumably magical, but alas, I could not make that part out quite as well.

Mural 4 depicts the Seer simply seated with a skull in her hand. She appears to be either looking at it or conversing with it.

BO2 - Chapter 11 - Hylden City (Following the water & crate area, just before the green elevator/platform area) Upper Level

Murals Discoverd:

1. Ancient Hylden Figure (female) decked out in warrior armor
2. Solitary ancient Hylden Figure (male)
3. Same Female Hylden in a group of other Hylden (performing mass experiement or murder..obvious scene of violence)
4. Same Male Hylden killing a being

My Conclusions:

Mural 1 depicts the same female Hylden that was seen on the murals of the lower level. Again this is the Seer. This time she is outfitted in warrior armor and is carrying a pike/staff weapon. I believe this clearly tells us that the Hylden were a violent society, maybe not genocidal, but strict, with strict punishments.

Mural 2 depicts the male Hylden, alone. This is also where I derive my conclusion of him being of some importance within the Hylden society. I still believe that this is what we have come to know as the Sarafan Lord.

Mural 3 depecits the Seer (along with other hylden, including the Sarafan Lord) in a violent scene. This is where I derive my theory of the Hylden being a strict society with punishments. The scene shows experiments, possibly punishments being issued to the beings with dark hair, and fangs.

Mural 4 depicts the Sarafan Lord killing another being with dark hair and fangs. If he's not killing him, then he is definately intimidating him (probably punishing him).

My Idea Surrounding the Seer & the Hylden:

I believe that the Seer and Sarafan Lord are siblings which lead the ancient Hylden sociey in a strict and just manner. Because the Seer can "see" the events of the future, I believe that she saw the Winged Ancients as another powerful race, similar to that of the Hylden. The Sarafan Lord is power hungry, so when visions of the Winged Ancients plagued the Seer , this drove the Sarafan Lord to want to invade Nosgoth. The Sarafan Lord also strikes me as an egotistical being (similar to Kain) and probably nagged his sister about the events of the future, like "am I going to rule supreme over?..." or "what happens when I am big and bad?" type questions. In an attempt to calm his ego, the Seer most likely told him he would lead but another race would prove worthier than his own. This of course ticked him off and sent him on his quest to enslave the Winged Ancients, demand that they use their magic for his purposes and begin taking control of the universe. I believe that the Seer is more of a docile being than the Sarafan Lord and was probably forced to invade Nosgoth and mold it into their society. The Sarafan Lord would need her visions in order to prevail hence why she came along. The Winged Ancients were lead in a more peaceful manner and didn't expect to be enslaved for their powers and beliefs. Obviously (from the murals) the Winged Ancients were tortured and whatnot, most likely for not revealing their secrets to the Sarafan Lord. After years of suffering, the Winged Ancients decided to fight back and reclaim Nosgoth as their own like it had been prior to the Hylden takeover. I believe the Seer was called on to fight alongside her brother and her people but refused, fighting for the Winged Ancients instead, which caused her to eventually take refuge in the forests of Nosgoth, but not out of cowardice. I believe she and the Ancient Wingeds had an alliance, she respected the way the Winged society was structured, peaceful and focused on developing new magicks and technologies, not a bloodthirsty dictatorship her own society was molded into. This is what caused the bad blood between Winged Ancients and the Hylden (who I assume were under the brainwashed control of the Sarafan Lord...perhaps another effect of glyph energy). The Winged Ancients fought back and fought back hard, weakining the Hyldens with the powers of the Soul Reaver and errecting the Pillars, thus banishing the Hyldens to another dimension and sealing the gate behind them and cursing the Winged Ancients as vampires out of revenge.

(Much of what I have just spoken about is depicted on the walls of the Subterranean Chamber of SR2...where "squiddy" is. LOL).

This is all the conclusions I've currently come to....I do hope that many of you can help me piece even more of the puzzle together with other murals. I will be playing the games more to do my own "research" as well. Thanks!

I am interested particularily in:

Why/When the Pillars have guardians
Is there evidence of changing guardians (following their deaths...original guardians etc.)
The infamous Hash'ak'gik theory
Events changed/occuring throughout all timelines

KainSyndrome101
2nd Jul 2002, 15:07
Very, very cool theory Umah. I didn't really think anything of the mural with the female on it. I knew it had some significance, but I never thought the Seer could be linked to it.

I'm doing some mural hunting myself these days, cause I have nothing better to do. It's a fun job though.

L_Master562
2nd Jul 2002, 15:14
Umah Bloodomen. Good one at that as it makes a good deal of sence. I need to post more now that I can.

chuffy
3rd Jul 2002, 10:08
i think that the seer is a cross-breed, half vampire half helden hence the wings, fangs and bat-like ears. with the bony ang grey skin. or she could have been halden woman who was turned into a vampire and has evoled after many years, If the helden are strict maybe they punished all the winged poeple for breeding with one of the helden. turning them all into vampires. and they used the seer as their weapon to seek out their enemys. hence the mural of violence. then in when the helden was banish she stay because she was a half breed. then hiding for 100's of years she started to feel guilt for what she had done. Unless she was forced to help the helden.

chuffy

lordofthepillars
3rd Jul 2002, 17:59
Hello mrs umah i also noticed that the seer is a hylden at least she is one before they fell from their former state as the hylden lord said "are we not all fallen gods". This is just my opinion though . I have been looking at the murals in soul reaver 2 and blood omen 2 because i think they reveal alot of the story as well. It would be interesting to find out more about the seer in a future installment of the series .

Embla
3rd Jul 2002, 22:07
Umah, I`m impressed with your capabilities of figuring out all this from some murals,and I think your theory is really great! :)

SirRaziel
3rd Jul 2002, 23:54
Yep I reckon it should be a movie plot that theory.

JANOS_KING_OF_VAMPIRES
4th Jul 2002, 00:21
i am not going to read all that
but i still go by my theory of the seer being a vamp and hylden hybrid


Topic: i think the seer is a hybrid!

i was looking at some pics of the seer and i saw that she had wings(a anciet vamp characteristic)
but she also looked like a hylden
and that would explain the mural that shows hylden taking her away
she must have been seen as a hideous creature
a mistake
its just a theory
tell me what u think

here is the post i made on the old board awhile back

Umah Bloodomen
4th Jul 2002, 04:58
The ancient murals of the Hylden vs. Ancient Wingeds showed the Hylden had wing-like appendages gracing their backs. The female Hylden depicted in the murals of BO2 had similar appendages.

The wings on both races looked different. Ancients had feathered wings whereas the Hylden had fleshy ones.

I think it is kind of un-openminded of you to sit here and respond with:

Originally Posted by JANOS_KING_OF_VAMPIRES



i am not going to read all that
but i still go by my theory of the seer being a vamp and hylden hybrid


To have your own suggestion is fine, but to throw your suggestion into someone elses thought out thread without even taking it into consideration is a bit absurd. :rolleyes:

You could've very well created your own thread to get your own responses to your theory.


EDIT - Thanks to all of you who did actually read through my theories. I am glad that you too received a new insight to the Hylden and look forward to developing more interesting theories for discussion in the future.

:)

JANOS_KING_OF_VAMPIRES
4th Jul 2002, 15:37
i didn't wanna waste time
this is a thread about the seer so i thought it would be a good time to mention my thoughts

JANOS_KING_OF_VAMPIRES
4th Jul 2002, 16:38
look, i dont mean any disrespect
i thought this was a thread to discuss the seer
i decided to use this oppurtunity to pst my theory that was on the old message board

chinese-soul-eater
5th Jul 2002, 04:43
:D Yea thats prettty good umah

i only looked at the murals for a second cause i wanted to reach the sarafan lord quick and beat him

i never would have thought that they were brother and sister though (creativity)

but didnt the sarafan lord kill her when she helped kain

willow
5th Jul 2002, 04:46
look, i dont mean any disrespect
i thought this was a thread to discuss the seer
i decided to use this oppurtunity to pst my theory that was on the old message board
Yes but you basically said I'm not going to waste time on you and your ideas, however I want you to waste time on mine...
Get the picture... you may not of meant it to be disrespectful... but it was.

JANOS_KING_OF_VAMPIRES
5th Jul 2002, 12:49
i said i wasn't going to read that because it was long
it was meant for humor
what the hell happened
back in the old message board everyone was cool

chuffy
6th Jul 2002, 18:36
i was just playing BO2 and i saw that the seer doesn't have wings!!!
if you look carefully, you will see she has large bone like appendages that come out of her back and a piece of cloth that hangs in between! looking like wings.

chuffy

Umah Bloodomen
6th Jul 2002, 18:55
chinese-soul-eater ~

Whether or not the Sarafan Lord disposed of the Seer when she helped Kain has not been revealed yet. My personal view on this is that he didn't. If the Seer had the power to teleport Kain out of the burning house, then naturally she would've followed suit and teleported out herself.

Another view I have is that she teleported herself out of the burning house and confronted the Sarafan Lord. (Not in battle of course, merely conversation that we weren't priviledged to see).
If they are siblings, then I would assume that The Sarafan Lord would've been upset with her for helping Kain. I would stand to think he himself had telekinetic/telepathic powers like the Seer but not as strong as the Seer. Hence why he cant' see the events of the future. I believe his mental abilities were limited to "sense". Twins have been known to share a mental bond and sense if the other is hurting or happy etc. I think this is a similar bond shared between the Sarafan Lord and the Seer. We could take this a few steps further and assume if the Seer was harmed, then the Sarafan Lord would feel the affects of that. If that is true then I don't picture the Sarafan Lord going out of his way to harm her on account he'd be harming himself.

I can already see that you may question "then does that mean the Seer feels the same affects?" The answer; Yes. At the end of BO2, the Sarafan Lord said something about never fully dying. He would just return to his demonic dimension and look for another opportunity to reinvade Nosgoth. (Which he could do until Balance to the Pillars was restored). If he were harmed (which he was) Then the Seer would feel that and also be affected, maybe even incapacitaed for the time being, until her sibling was of better strength. This is all speculation at this point, but it wouldn't surprise me. It does explain a lot as to why we didn't see or hear from the Seer again following her brief appearance. I really hope this one "will be revealed in time". ;)

chuffy ~

If you check out my theory on Azimuth the Planer you would find some interesting views on the Seer's appearance. To save you the time, I will repeat that if she was a Hylden, then obviously her appearance would change just so she isn't persecuted for being different and also being related to the bad blood between ancients and hylden.

There is also speculation that Ive brought up, suggesting that because the Seer did not enforce the Hylden way (totally....please review this thread). that she was allowed to stay in Nosgoth by ancient magic. She wasn't devolved into such a hideous creature as the other hylden, and she of course remains in Nosgoth without any problems. I find it hard to swallow that no one of importance knows she is there. I believe Janos knows she was there, why wouldn't he? He is the "God" figure of our story, naturally he is inclined to such trivial things. (Hence the dialogue of him knowing of Raziel in SR2). I forsee the knowledge of certain parties in the series being disclosed in the new installments, as well as the Seer's origins, relations to the characters along with her presence overall.

chuffy
6th Jul 2002, 19:06
i starting to see why everybody likes you so much Umah

chuffy

Umah Bloodomen
6th Jul 2002, 19:08
Well I suppose I will take that as a compliment then. :)

***leans into chuffy and whispers in his/her ear*** Now could you let me into why? I haven't the slightest idea. :p

chuffy
6th Jul 2002, 19:17
because your the lady that just keeps giving. and your thoerys are very detailed and can be quite convincing. i did read them before but i have a mind like a thing with holes.

and just for future reference i'm of the male persuasion. :D

chuffy

Umah Bloodomen
6th Jul 2002, 19:40
***tips her hat to chuffy***
Why thank you, kind sir. ;)

Vampmaster
6th Jul 2002, 21:16
The Hylden woman in the murals does not have ears like the seer. That is some kind of bone structure that extends from the Hyldens head. The devolved ones in the game had this only with gaps in it.

Vampmaster
6th Jul 2002, 21:44
Whether or not the murals are of the Seer doesn't make your theory any less valid, Umah. It makes a lot of sense. What part do you think the Elder has in it? I think he had a part in causing the Hylden-Vampire war. I think she could be reading the future by reading his mind or he could be sending her false visions to manipulate her and the hylden. I think she could be a Hylden with the vampiric curse, which would explain her features.

Umah Bloodomen
7th Jul 2002, 00:33
As I stated before, I think she is a Hylden but her curse was not as extreme as what was bestowed upon her entire race. That would explain the slight difference in her features. I stated earlier that I figured she had simply chose to fight against the Hylden which made her curse less extreme. (She helped the ancients, therefore they didn't use as much magic on her and they allowed her to stay in Nosgoth).

As for the elder, I think (as do many) that he is none other than the dark god, Hash'ak'gik. I think that he didn't necessarily cause the ancient vs. Hylden battle, but he merely took advantage of the situation and helped the Hylden re-enter Nosgoth pre BO2 and during BO2. I think Hash merely existed in the demonic dimension that the Hylden were banished to and seized his own opportunity for glory and invaded it.

Rekalistically there is no evidence suggesting the existance of either Hash or the elder during the time of the Ancient civilization. Even the elder didn't make mention of it in the SR series. I think this poses an interesting question for all of us as to when and why he came to be, and why he started the cult of followers (which includes Moebius) and why he sought out Mortanius to possess.

I can't wait for this piece to be filled into the puzzle in SR3 and BO3.

Light In Dark
22nd Aug 2002, 01:35
Alright my very first written account in this forum...ever!!! :eek:

I just wanted to let Umah know that her thread is very in depth and I'm impressed (not that you should care).

In my old opinion I thought the seer was just a weird vampire and that thing on her back a bit o cloth but now that I have read what these people are saying new ideas have popped into my little head! all to weird to write down and make sense, but Basically I think she was a hylden and got nipped by a vamp or died and ressurected as a vamp or something along thouse lines. but then again the Hylden and the anchients were in Nosgoth to start with then the war popped up, the Anchients banned the Hylden to the deamon realm, then the pillers went boom the hylden popped back blah blah blah...is this some kinda romeo and juliet thing with the two warring families and the two lost lovers yada yada yada ... see told you it was weird :confused:

Umah Bloodomen
22nd Aug 2002, 06:44
Originally posted by Light In Dark
Alright my very first written account in this forum...ever!!! :eek:

Welcome to the forums btw. :)


Originally posted by Light In Dark
I just wanted to let Umah know that her thread is very in depth and I'm impressed (not that you should care).

**shrugs*** Perhaps I shouldn't care, but it is always nice to get a compliment around here (especially lately :rolleyes: ***bites tongue to hold back her little sarcastic remark here...for now anyway).

I am glad that you found this thread enjoyable Light in the Dark. :)


Originally posted by Light In Dark
In my old opinion I thought the seer was just a weird vampire and that thing on her back a bit o cloth but now that I have read what these people are saying new ideas have popped into my little head! all to weird to write down and make sense, but Basically I think she was a hylden and got nipped by a vamp or died and ressurected as a vamp or something along thouse lines. but then again the Hylden and the anchients were in Nosgoth to start with then the war popped up, the Anchients banned the Hylden to the deamon realm, then the pillers went boom the hylden popped back blah blah blah...is this some kinda romeo and juliet thing with the two warring families and the two lost lovers yada yada yada ... see told you it was weird :confused:

I doubt your own ideas are "too weird". Besides, we all are a bit weird, we'd probably get a kick out of them. :) ;).

Your Romeo and Juliet (Capulets vs. Montagues) analogy is good. Another good one would be The Hatfields and The McCoys. :p

It is still unclear at this point who came first...the ancients or the Hylden. Indeed both had a presence in Nosgoth, but I am wondering who actually migrated there, and who already had a hold on the place. (I lean a little towards the Ancients being there first, but I would like to know where the Hylden originate from - pre-banishment and pre-war).

EDIT Fixed a boldface tag.

keepittrue
22nd Aug 2002, 09:21
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
chinese-soul-eater ~

I can already see that you may question "then does that mean the Seer feels the same affects?" The answer; Yes. At the end of BO2, the Sarafan Lord said something about never fully dying. He would just return to his demonic dimension and look for another opportunity to reinvade Nosgoth. (Which he could do until Balance to the Pillars was restored). If he were harmed (which he was) .



The SL didnt say that.

Umah Bloodomen
22nd Aug 2002, 09:37
Originally Spoken by The Sarafan Lord

You have won the battle, but the war between your kind and mine will never end. Our banishment in the demon dimension also ensures our immortality. One day, we shall return.

Perhaps I should have phrased that statement of mine as:

"They" would just return to their demonic dimension..."

(They meaning the Hylden race).

God forbid one misspeaks/mistypes now and then :rolleyes:

And last time I checked, immortality includes, not dying. :rolleyes:


From my good friend, the late Merriam-Webster[/i]

Main Entry: 1im·mor·tal
Pronunciation: (")i-'mor-t&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin immortalis, from in- + mortalis mortal
Date: 14th century
1 : exempt from death <the immortal gods>
2 : exempt from oblivion : IMPERISHABLE <immortal fame>
3 : connected with or relating to immortality
- im·mor·tal·ly /-t&l-E/ adverb


Also from my good friend, the late Merriam-Webster[/i]

Main Entry: im·mor·tal·i·ty
Pronunciation: "i-"mor-'ta-l&-tE
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: the quality or state of being immortal : a : unending existence b : lasting fame


:p ;)

keepittrue
23rd Aug 2002, 04:51
Uhh, I think we can agree on that he meant they live forever not as in he cant be destroyed. I mean what do you think the Soul Reaver did to him, do you think the SL is still alive, or even the rest of the hylden when we saw them parish. (at least the ones in nosgoth at the time)

Umah Bloodomen
23rd Aug 2002, 05:05
Obviously we missed the definitions I posted.... does "unending existence" ring a bell? :rolleyes:

I just stated above that I meant to say "they" as opposed to "he" (obviously that was disregarded too). :rolleyes:

Sure, it would appear that the reaver killed him (physically) but
why else would he comment:



You have won the battle, but the war between your kind and mine will never end. Our banishment in the demon dimension also ensures our immortality. One day, we shall return

We saw the Hylden city collapse. I didn't see any Hylden "die" other than the ones I disposed of as Kain during my gameplay, and the Sarafan Lord at the end. I use the term "die" very loosely here, because TSL stated in his own words that his race is guaranteed immortality as long as the curse that binds them to the demon dimension is active.

I am inclined to believe that TSL was referring to their "physical" deaths in Nosgoth, but compare this to Indian culture and say that reincarnation could possibly be a factor. Again, it could be possible because TSL hints at something along those lines.

I've stated before, we don't really know the belief structure of either race (Hylden, Ancients or even prehistoric humans for that matter) and we most certainly do not know all the details surrounding the banishment, the war or what actually does happen in the demon dimension.

keepittrue
24th Aug 2002, 08:29
Uhh, did you see the end of the game, all the Hylden that was left in nosgoth perished in the fmv, remember. Also he says banishment in the demon world ensures theyre immortality, he was no longer in the demon world so he is no longer immortal. WE was used to refer to his race not himself.
Also he died physically and spiritually, what do you think the soul reaver did to him, suck his body, no, its not called soul reaver for nothing it sucked his soul. Janos stated somewhere during the game that the gate was the hyldens umbilical cord in nosgoth and that the nexus stone could destroy the gate utterly.
If theyre is a ressurection for the SL after the soul reaver sucked him up, that would be the lamest thing I ever heard. SL dead, and all the Hylden that was left in Nosgoth are dead, watch the end fmv again.

Also that statement he made is an open statement, I mean really you can clearly see that. He was simply stateing that the war between the Hylden and Vamps will never end, that statement had nothing to do with him.

Found it

Janos:

It was in this way that the Sarafan Lord was able to enter the world, by building a magical gate. This is the Hylden Gate. Close this gate Kain, and all the Hylden within Nosgoth will perish.

Are you telling me Janos does not know what he is talking about?????

The Amazing Rando
24th Aug 2002, 08:43
Keep, reread Umah's last posts. Umah says that the SL is dead. Umah meant to say 'they' meaning the Hylden would be immortal. All that were left in Nosgoth may have died, but there are still some apparently in the demon dimention. They are immortal there. Umah has admitted that the SL is dead. Umah has not contended that fact.

keepittrue
24th Aug 2002, 08:48
Actually you need to reread her post, she said that they as in the hylden in nosgoth and the SL would return to the DEMON world and wait for a moment to return to nosgoth. That statement is completly wrong. Also she was saying he died physically and thats all and she was also refering to some kind of reincarnation. Reread the the last 4 or 5 post again.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
chinese-soul-eater ~

I can already see that you may question "then does that mean the Seer feels the same affects?" The answer; Yes. At the end of BO2, the Sarafan Lord said something about never fully dying. He would just return to his demonic dimension and look for another opportunity to reinvade Nosgoth. (Which he could do until Balance to the Pillars was restored). If he were harmed (which he was) .

See, she says something to the fact about the SL not fully dying and returning to nosgoth again for another invasion.

The Amazing Rando
24th Aug 2002, 09:04
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
They" would just return to their demonic dimension..."


because TSL stated in his own words that his race is guaranteed immortality as long as the curse that binds them to the demon dimension is active.

I am inclined to believe that TSL was referring to their "physical" deaths in Nosgoth, but compare this to Indian culture and say that reincarnation could possibly be a factor. Again, it could be possible because TSL hints at something along those lines.


She was saying that the Hylden weren't all dead and would try and attack again. And she wasn't saying for sure that he would come back reincarnate, but she never ruled out that they believe in it or that it was a possibility. How do you know reincarnation doesn't happen. Seems a logical explanation for V being there, at least as good as any untill the game says otherwise.

Edit:Umah, if I'm totally off here you can go ahead and step in and let me know.:) I'm just calling it as I see it. What I'm saying is in no way gauranteed to be what she's trying to get across, it's just what I suspect is the case and I in no way represent her (as in trying to put words in her mouth-just clarifying)

keepittrue
24th Aug 2002, 09:24
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I dont understant what you you mean Rando, she clearly stated that the Hylden in Nosgoth and the SL were immortal as in not dead or going to die totally, that is why she put those definitions up she was trying to back that point up, also she stated clearly that she believes THEY as in Hylden and SL in Nosgoth would return to DEMON world and wait for a moment to REinvade Nosgoth.

I undertand that the Hylden in the demon world may have a chance of returning somehow but I am saying the ones in BO2 including the SL are dead, period.

Originally posted by Umah:

We saw the Hylden city collapse. I didn't see any Hylden "die" other than the ones I disposed of as Kain during my gameplay, and the Sarafan Lord at the end. I use the term "die" very loosely here, because TSL stated in his own words that his race is guaranteed immortality as long as the curse that binds them to the demon dimension is active.

I am inclined to believe that TSL was referring to their "physical" deaths in Nosgoth, but compare this to Indian culture and say that reincarnation could possibly be a factor. Again, it could be possible because TSL hints at something along those lines.



She also states that no Hylden died except for the ones she fought which is also false. The SL guarenteed the immortality of the Hylden IN the Demon world not the ones out. She also stated tat the SL died Physically, inclining that he is still alive spiritually, even tho the Soul Reaver reaved his soul which is also false. What do you think she means when she says THEY would just return to the DEMON world, why would she be talking about the ones already there, she clearly means the ones in Nosgoth.
I dont know how you are reading her post but you should re reread it again.

TempySmurf
24th Aug 2002, 10:14
It seems to me that the gate kept the hylden there in the physical form. This does not say that by closing the gate that they do not just revert back to the "demon" dimension. This would actually follow the logic of the game to some extent. For example, take Raziel, his phyiscal form can be destroyed and when it is he reverts back to the spectral dimension. So logically the hylden could easily have lost their physical form in nosgoth and still be technically alive forever in the demon dimension. Since they do not originate from the demon dimension this could be questionable, but depending on the form the banishment of the hylden took, who knows. Not to mention that they seem to have eternal life in the demon realm, which was not of their original nature and so they did acquire new properties in that realm. That would also lead one to believe that the demons never die either, they just go back to their original plane of existance.

My assumption of the umbilical cord logic is that the gate created an extension of the demon dimension into the phsyical dimension. This gate didn't just let them in, I'm assuming that the banishment was of a magical nature (the pillars) and that it didn't just send them to the other deminsion, it keeps them out of the physical deminsion. The gate itself created an extension of the demon deminsion, which is what allowed the hylden to be in nosgoth in the first place. Else why would they be destroyed when the gate was destroyed. One could also assume that they could try to "merge" the two dimensions together as two and dissolve the banishment by a technicality. Similiar to all those bad science fiction B movies. But anyhow.. I assume that this is the logic of the game and that all of the hylden just went merrily back to where they belong. This may not be the case, but it could easily be that way without causing any story problems.

As far as the SL goes, you have to consider all the factors. You have the soul reaver which should take his soul, but you also have the demon deminsion calling him back (assuming it works that way).. and during the battle it does seem to come into question whether they are actually in the physical realm or the demon realm at that point in time. Or perhaps even in the gateway itself and be in both. Whichever. What matters is that although the soul reaver does take souls... can it take souls in the demon dimension. Is the force behind the banishment stronger than the soul reaver's thirst? It could easily be said that as soon as he died he went directly back to "hell" before the soul reaver had a chance. I don't think this is the case.. and I'm not going to go play the ending again to see if his soul actually got sucked up. I think he's probably dead. However, being almost in the demon dimension or in it, it still could be up for grabs without too much question (assuming the fmv didn't show his soul getting sucked into the reaver). Actually, now that I think about it, I don't remember BO's soul reaver taking souls. Raziel takes souls, the upset soul reaver with raziel attached to it takes souls, but when has the soul reaver ever taken a soul when it's not part of raziel? That would totally destroy the game play of BO if it does take souls without Raziel, cause when I killed people with the soul reaver in BO, and went away and came back, their souls were floating around all upset. Now I've gone and confused myself.

Does anyone have the dialogue Kain says to himself in BO1 when he gets the soul reaver for the first time? Soul reaver would by definition only deprive someone of their soul and thus they would die, it doesn't have to suck the soul to be a soul reaver, if it was called soul sucker (which for some strange reason reminds me of a NIN song.. speaking of which.. if he's not busy.. that would make a fun soundtrack for SR3.. anyways.. sidetracking).. that might be a different story. ;) Is there any proof that the soul reaver actually swallows souls without Raziel? Or did the soul reaver ever actually take souls itself? The spirit form of the soul reaver is attached to raziel and we all know that he is the one who takes the souls and not the soul reaver itself, because it was never meant to do that. The soul reaver does decide to start taking souls itself, but it is only the spiritual form of the soul reaver and it's still attached to Raziel which are basically the same thing. The blood reaver does attempt to take raziels soul, but only because, I believe that the soul reaver is wrapped around it and that is still part of Raziel.

So... unless someone can prove otherwise.. I'm going to change my decision and say that SL could very well be alive in the demon dimension. And then I'd like to raise another question of whether or not the physical soul reaver actually takes souls itself? It doesn't seem to in BO1 and it doesn't seem to in BO2 if you "GO CHEESE" .. and I'm not sure about the ending, but I'm guessing that it doesn't.

And another thing... Cause I've seen people say this before on some thread or another.. The hylden can come back without the gate. SL got through the first time because of a paradox. All they need is another paradox (SR2 ending) to come back, unless that was how they got back in the first place, which makes BO2 the altered timeline. I don't really follow how they're saying they can't.

keepittrue
24th Aug 2002, 17:23
Ok, what does the Soul Reaver do, it reaves souls. The SL is dead physically and spiritually bottomline I will never agree that the SL is still alive after what I saw in BO2 period, Janos states that they will perish once the gate is destroyed. I would assume that he means dead as in not returning(the ones in nosgoth at the time). I cant say anything about you believeing them to return to the demon world after the so called physical death, because I dont know for sure altho its just a theory nothing in the game implies this, I would think just like Raz they would go to specteral realm, and being they are NOT Raz they would be nothing but flying souls for him to eat. I asummed when he stated umbilical cord, it acted as a mother to baby umbilical cord, if you destroy it they die. The SLwas the most important Hylden in the game, we will never know if the others somehow returned to the demon world spiritually and got restored physically however I dont even know how you guys even came up with that.

And what are you talking about the SR does not take souls with out Raziel I dont even know what you mean. In BO2 Raziel was trapped inside the Reaver thus being the Soul Reaver, I am not going to get into a debate whether or not you belive that the SR sucks souls in BO2. To be honost I cant believe you would come up with such an idea of the Soul Reaver not sucking souls.

The Soul Reaver
"Time fades even legend, and the origin of the Soul Reaver has been lost long ago. But its purpose remains - to feed on the souls of any creature it strikes. Kindred, this blade and I."

This is what Kain states when he finds the Blade for the first time.

Tempy the more I read your post he more I see you are not getting the full story clear. The SL didnt come thru from a paradox, he came thru only because the barrier between the demon world and nosgoth weakened because of Kains fatefull decision to not sacrafice himself. The whole Soul Reaver thing, you got that completely confused.

Umah Bloodomen
24th Aug 2002, 18:42
Originally posted by Keepittrue
Uhh, did you see the end of the game, all the Hylden that was left in nosgoth perished in the fmv, remember. Also he says banishment in the demon world ensures theyre immortality, he was no longer in the demon world so he is no longer immortal. WE was used to refer to his race not himself.
Also he died physically and spiritually, what do you think the soul reaver did to him, suck his body, no, its not called soul reaver for nothing it sucked his soul. Janos stated somewhere during the game that the gate was the hyldens umbilical cord in nosgoth and that the nexus stone could destroy the gate utterly.
If theyre is a ressurection for the SL after the soul reaver sucked him up, that would be the lamest thing I ever heard. SL dead, and all the Hylden that was left in Nosgoth are dead, watch the end fmv again.

Yes I've seen the ending FMV to BO2 and all I saw was a Hylden city crumbling and Kain walking off into the sunset as he reflected on Umah's death and implied of his future plans to raise the Sarafan bretheren. There was no up-close graphic death scenes of each and every Hylden currently inhabiting Nosgoth, dying horrible deaths. :rolleyes: The manner in which TSL spoke of their guaranteed immortality leads me to believe that he is included in they. Why wouldn't he be? He is the "supreme Hylden". He is Hylden just like any other Hylden and cursed just the same. Why would he be immune to the same affects?

I found some dialogue for you: My comments will appear in my normal text color.



Janos:

It was in this way that the Sarafan Lord was able to enter the world, by building a magical gate. This is the Hylden Gate. Close this gate Kain, and all the Hylden within Nosgoth will perish.

Translation: Close the gate and the Hylden cannot hold a place in Nosgoth. There is NO mention of whether or not they return to the demon dimension. Notice though, that my speculation has not been ruled out.


Kain:

The gate sustains their existence?

Janos:

Precisely. It is their umbilical cord to the other world. When it is closed they cannot dwell in our world.

Kain:

And so, all the Hylden will die, and the Sarafan Lord as one of them, dies as well. I see...

Janos:

Ah, close the gate, and kill the Sarafan Lord, Kain. Close the gate, and shut the Hylden from the world once again.


Translation, Kain discovers that the gate sustains the Hylden within Nosgoth. He doesn't mention what is going on back home in the demon dimension. Janos agrees and states that this gate is the only way for the Hylden to maintain contact with the demon dimension (their new homeworld). Without the gate, they cannot come and/or remain here, in Nosgoth. Bottom line. Kain figures that he will wipe out the Hylden for good. Janos contradicts Kain (hence the "Ah" with the tone of "on the contrary") and states that once their gate is closed, Kain will succeed in returning the Hylden back to their home world. I am sure if this act would destroy the Hylden race entirely, Janos would've simply agreed and he didn't. He said this instead.


Originally posted by Keepittrue
Also that statement he made is an open statement, I mean really you can clearly see that. He was simply stateing that the war between the Hylden and Vamps will never end, that statement had nothing to do with him.

Found it

Janos:

It was in this way that the Sarafan Lord was able to enter the world, by building a magical gate. This is the Hylden Gate. Close this gate Kain, and all the Hylden within Nosgoth will perish.

Are you telling me Janos does not know what he is talking about?????

You are correct, it is an open statement to which I provided my own insight. Am I to assume that I am not entitled?
Furthermore, why wouldn't the statement have anything to do with TSL, he's only the Hylden's most powerful general (if not their direct leader). Yeah I will buy he will die a martyr without having a devoted Hylden official to take over for him and continue his work. :rolleyes: Standard military procedures are to have a second in command...I see none.
As far as Janos not knowing what he was talking about, no, I think he does. But why don't you read into the entire dialogue and refrain from taking just the snippets that back up your own arguement rather than the debate as a whole. Please see the entire dialogue for that part above.


Originally posted by Rando
Keep, reread Umah's last posts. Umah says that the SL is dead. Umah meant to say 'they' meaning the Hylden would be immortal. All that were left in Nosgoth may have died, but there are still some apparently in the demon dimention. They are immortal there. Umah has admitted that the SL is dead. Umah has not contended that fact.

I agree that he met a physical demise, but I also stated that I feel that he somehow lives on in the demon dimension and stands to return to Nosgoth eventually. I also would like to point you all back to my definitions that I posted for Immortality...I am trying to stress the fact that I feel TSL and the Hylden have an "unending existence" which leads me to believe that if they aren't alive in Nosgoth physically, then they are in the demon dimension either physically, spiritually or both. And yes it was stated that the rest of the race still remained in the demon dimension:



Janos:

They were, Kain, but several centuries ago, one of the Hylden was able to return to our world. He then used his magic to draw other Hylden through, but had not yet the power to begin a full invasion. He required an army here, and humans to drain of energy. He learned of a legendary order whose purpose was to purge the world of vampires long ago. He revived this order, and the Sarafan were born again.

Translation: TSL returned to Nosgoth (through the failure of the lock that bound them to the demon dimension aka The Pillars. This clearly states that TSL merely created a foothold in Nosgoth, the rest of the Hylden would soon be on their way.

What I originally stated to chinese-soul-eater was clarified in my recent posts. Obviously that has been ignored. If you check this response, (as well as my last few) you will see why I believe that TSL and the Hylden will return to reinvade Nosgoth. They are free to create as many gates here as possible, because the Pillars are still corrupt and thus their lock is open, waiting for their next move. There is nothing to disprove my speculations thus far.

And to quote myself again:



I am inclined to believe that TSL was referring to their "physical" deaths in Nosgoth, but compare this to Indian culture and say that reincarnation could possibly be a factor. Again, it could be possible because TSL hints at something along those lines.

I've stated before, we don't really know the belief structure of either race (Hylden, Ancients or even prehistoric humans for that matter) and we most certainly do not know all the details surrounding the banishment, the war or what actually does happen in the demon dimension.


You aren't a total expert, neither am I or anyone else who hasn't written the actual LOK storyline. (Meaning Amy & co.). You do not know for a fact what does and doesn't happen with the Hylden or in their dimension, and you shoot down my theories of the Hylden being an organized civilization with certain beliefs, abilities, and knowledge. Not to sound cocky, but I think my theory presented here (which goes beneath the surface of what has been presented) suffices for a well-rounded and plausable explanation. We haven't seen what occurs with this aspect of the storyline yet and so far we've managed to debate on what has been presented while you rule out what could possibly be. So far though, Keep, I have seen nothing from you other than what has been presented. And you stick to that story as if it is law without further expanding on it. Why is that? I've presented my speculations, indepthly and without revolving around the same old statements over and over and over. Is this so hard to accomplish nowadays for the sake of good & friendly debate?


Originally posted by Rando
She was saying that the Hylden weren't all dead and would try and attack again. And she wasn't saying for sure that he would come back reincarnate, but she never ruled out that they believe in it or that it was a possibility. How do you know reincarnation doesn't happen. Seems a logical explanation for V being there, at least as good as any untill the game says otherwise.

Edit:Umah, if I'm totally off here you can go ahead and step in and let me know. I'm just calling it as I see it. What I'm saying is in no way gauranteed to be what she's trying to get across, it's just what I suspect is the case and I in no way represent her (as in trying to put words in her mouth-just clarifying)


I second this notion. I didn't claim it was fact that they believe in reincarnation, I merely stated it was an option that should be considered. (Vorador is a whole other thread entirely though...:p ;) ).

You aren't way off Rando. I've only been trying to state that these are my speculations and show that I am openminded to these actually being factors.


I am running out of space... I will continue this in another response...

EDIT Touched up a color tag...

Umah Bloodomen
24th Aug 2002, 19:14
Originally posted by keepittrue
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I dont understant what you you mean Rando, she clearly stated that the Hylden in Nosgoth and the SL were immortal as in not dead or going to die totally, that is why she put those definitions up she was trying to back that point up, also she stated clearly that she believes THEY as in Hylden and SL in Nosgoth would return to DEMON world and wait for a moment to REinvade Nosgoth.

For the last time, the point I was stressing with the definitions was "unending existence". Which would mean not die off totally, I said nothing of the Hylden being being able to undergo a physical death. The Hylden (and I still assume all of them) exist in some way, shape or form, most likely in the demon dimension.

I undertand that the Hylden in the demon world may have a chance of returning somehow but I am saying the ones in BO2 including the SL are dead, period. And as far as the Hylden that I personally witnessed dying I will repeat:



There was no up-close graphic death scenes of each and every Hylden currently inhabiting Nosgoth, dying horrible deaths.

I don't dispute they didn't perish, I dispute their existence in some way, shape or form, in the demon dimension.

Do me a favor Keep, when you decide to use my own quotes against me, make sure you understand them fully prior to doing so...



We saw the Hylden city collapse. I didn't see any Hylden "die" other than the ones I disposed of as Kain during my gameplay, and the Sarafan Lord at the end. I use the term "die" very loosely here, because TSL stated in his own words that his race is guaranteed immortality as long as the curse that binds them to the demon dimension is active.

Physically TSL died. There is no way to disprove my speculation that he (or the rest of the perished Hylden) do not still exist somehow in the demon dimension.

And just for the reference, this invasion wasn't the full invasion. Again, refer to Janos' statement:



Janos:

They were, Kain, but several centuries ago, one of the Hylden was able to return to our world. He then used his magic to draw other Hylden through, but had not yet the power to begin a full invasion. He required an army here, and humans to drain of energy. He learned of a legendary order whose purpose was to purge the world of vampires long ago. He revived this order, and the Sarafan were born again.

I will agree with TempySmurf's opinion here as well. It furthers the speculations of TSL and the Hylden existing somehow and not ruling the fact of this happening out. (And provides another take on the matter) :D

If I remember correctly, when TSL "died" he merely vanished. He wasn't sucked into the reaver as other foes have been in the other games. I just can't put my faith into the reaver claiming his soul without better proof.


Originally posted by Keepittrue[/b]
Ok, what does the Soul Reaver do, it reaves souls. The SL is dead physically and spiritually bottomline I will never agree that the SL is still alive after what I saw in BO2 period, Janos states that they will perish once the gate is destroyed. I would assume that he means dead as in not returning(the ones in nosgoth at the time). I cant say anything about you believeing them to return to the demon world after the so called physical death, because I dont know for sure altho its just a theory nothing in the game implies this, I would think just like Raz they would go to specteral realm, and being they are NOT Raz they would be nothing but flying souls for him to eat. I asummed when he stated umbilical cord, it acted as a mother to baby umbilical cord, if you destroy it they die. The SLwas the most important Hylden in the game, we will never know if the others somehow returned to the demon world spiritually and got restored physically however I dont even know how you guys even came up with that. [/b]


1. Where is your proof that TSL is dead spiritually? (I've backed up my speculations...doesn't make them fact I know, but I've backed them up).

2. Janos states that they will perish in Nosgoth if the gate is destroyed. (I more than commented on that in my last post).

3. There is plenty to imply this notion of the Hylden return.

The Amazing Rando
24th Aug 2002, 20:20
I asummed when he stated umbilical cord, it acted as a mother to baby umbilical cord, if you destroy it they die

Not really, if the baby was born (they entered Nosgoth), it could be cut. The last I've checked, I have a belly button and not an umbilical cord sticking out of me now. We don't know if the Hylden would be 'born' at this point (ie still needing it to survive).

However if this is true:


Not to mention that they seem to have eternal life in the demon realm, which was not of their original nature and so they did acquire new properties in that realm

which I also got the feeling was true (that is was the demon dimention that gave them eternal life, barring an outside factor), then maybe when the umbilical cord was cut it was time for the baby (hylden in Nosgoth) to survive on their own w/o mommy's help. Meaning, they lost some or all of the properties provided to them by the Demon Dimention. This could mean that if any Hylden were shon dying at the end (don't remember any myself), it could be from old age and their inability to remain immortal in Nosgoth.

I know this is kinda out there, but I just thought of it and I kinda liked it.

keepittrue
24th Aug 2002, 21:01
You guys just wanna dwell non factual things. Where is Warp at with the pictures. * keep goes off to find Warp *


Oh well cant find him, anyway look real closely Umah at the end FMV of Blood Omen 2, the Hylden do die horrible deaths, your game must be really screwed if you cant see that.

Amazing Rando, use common sense what do you think Janos meant when he made that statement. He was refering to the connection between the 2, the fact that the baby needs the umbilical in its stages of life before it comes out the womb, surely you knew that much.

Umah this quote I made said the same thing you said:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by keepittrue
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I dont understant what you you mean Rando, she clearly stated that the Hylden in Nosgoth and the SL were immortal as in not dead or going to die totally, that is why she put those definitions up she was trying to back that point up, also she stated clearly that she believes THEY as in Hylden and SL in Nosgoth would return to DEMON world and wait for a moment to REinvade Nosgoth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the last time, the point I was stressing with the definitions was "unending existence". Which would mean not die off totally, I said nothing of the Hylden being being able to undergo a physical death. The Hylden (and I still assume all of them) exist in some way, shape or form, most likely in the demon dimension.


Thats exactly what the qoute said that I put down that you said.

Umah, you have no argument on the SL's death, I wish NE would show or Warp, maybe they can explain it better. Puting it simple, THE SL IS DEAD, THE SOUL REAVER ATE HIS SOUL HIS BODY IS WRACKED WITH INJURIES. Your whole physical thing is way off base, please explain how the SL could be alive in the demon world if he died as in dead in Nosgoth????????????????????

You can believe the Hylden in Nosgoth or the SL is alive all you want to, but you make no sense in your argument about that, and the qoute by Janos IMO disproves your argument anyway but you refuse to believe that so its hopeless that you will believe me if you dont even believe the game.

Yes Hylden still do exist in the demon world but not any of the ones we saw in BO2. What makes you think after they died in your so called physical form that they go to demon world, common sense tells you, they turn into flying souls and go into spectral realm for sluagh to eat them.

Posted by Umah:

If I remember correctly, when TSL "died" he merely vanished. He wasn't sucked into the reaver as other foes have been in the other games. I just can't put my faith into the reaver claiming his soul without better proof.

What kind of proof do you need I mean jeez.

And you have not backed uped you speculation, I dont need to back mine up, every LoK games states when the Soul Reaver STRIKES an enemy it reaves theyre soul bottom line.

Posted by Umah:
I just can't put my faith into the reaver claiming his soul without better proof.

Let me guess this is your back up.



Janos:

It was in this way that the Sarafan Lord was able to enter the world, by building a magical gate. This is the Hylden Gate. Close this gate Kain, and all the Hylden within Nosgoth will perish.

Your translation is actually pretty good buit it also inludes this.

Real translation:

Hylden in Nosgoth die if you claose the Gate. PERIOD

The Amazing Rando
24th Aug 2002, 21:27
Amazing Rando, use common sense what do you think Janos meant when he made that statement. He was refering to the connection between the 2, the fact that the baby needs the umbilical in its stages of life before it comes out the womb, surely you knew that much

and surely you know that once the baby is born the dr cuts the cord. Did I ever say that the baby was unborn....No. I said that entering Nosgoth was being born to them, cutting the cord (gate) just cut off the nourishment from it (as thats what the cord does, lets the baby get nourishment from the mother). As I said, the nourishment would be the immortality, without it they become mortal, and as such died from age.


And yes, you do need to back up your theories if yoou want them to have credibility. I never saw his soul eaten by the Reaver. Reave doesn't mean eat. Here's one of the definitions, tho there are others they are pretty much the same.


To deprive (one) of something; bereave.

Well, he deprived the body of the soul, does that mean the soul can't live on on it's own? I think Raz would disagree. And what about wraiths, or Dumah, apparently if you are strong enough or there long enough, you're not necessarily just a floating soul are you. And how do you know that his soul couldn't just float around and through the gate so that it could regain it's immortality, which leads to some way of bringing it back. It wouldn't be the first time a soul was brought back into a body. *cough VAMPIREScoughTHE BROTHERScoughRAZIEL AS A SOUL REAVERcough*

And you haven't proven your point yet. All you're doing is looking at that one quote over and over and saying that your way of interpreting it is the only way and that everyone else is wrong in how they are looking at it. Untill the game proves you right, everyone's interpretation is just as valid and you haven't proven otherwise. Look at Janos' other quote:


Kain:

The gate sustains their existence?

Janos:

Precisely. It is their umbilical cord to the other world. When it is closed they cannot dwell in our world.

Kain:

And so, all the Hylden will die, and the Sarafan Lord as one of them, dies as well. I see...

Janos:

Ah, close the gate, and kill the Sarafan Lord, Kain. Close the gate, and shut the Hylden from the world once again

All Janos says here is that if the gate is closed they cannot dwell(1.reside 2. keep the attentiondirected) in Nosgoth. Kain says it would kill them, but Janos doesn't ust say "yes" He says "Close the gate and shut the Hylden from the world". We've seen Kain assume something before based on someone's words only to find out that he was misled and assumed when he shouldn't. Remember in BO1, Ariel said there would be a "release for the curse" or something (been a while and I don't have the exact quote) so Kain assumes he will be human again. What happens, her release=death.

And Keep, will you please use the quote boxes as your last couple posts have been kinda hard to tell where you are quoting someone and where you are speaking.

Darakari
24th Aug 2002, 22:59
I have been impressed by "UmahBloodOmen" since she joined this forum. Her theories are always well thought out and her explanations are always detailed and accurate. "Uma" is one very intelligent woman in my opinion, and I am glad to have her as a member of this forum. Her insight into the LOK series is astounding. I can never explain my theories as well as she explains hers. Umah, and other members like her, are the reason that I keep coming back to this forum over and over, even though I'm so busy that I sometimes go weeks before I can return to the forum.

keepittrue
24th Aug 2002, 23:54
OMG, this is ludacris. Your point on the umbilical cord is interesting, however I think we can agree that he meant going by what he said meaning that they would die without the gate based on what he said.

Vampires first off are not Hylden, dont get confused on the 2. Vampires physical body is impared once they get impaled and the soul leaves the body, if the impalation is reveresed then they come back to life via theyre soul. I am not going to argue with you 2 on why the SR DID suck the SL's soul. You guys IMO are crazy for thinking it did not suck his soul. If you want to use a lame excuse for why the Soul Reaver does not actually suck souls because of the name, you need to get facts strait.

The Soul Reaver
"Time fades even legend, and the origin of the Soul Reaver has been lost long ago. But its purpose remains - to feed on the souls of any creature it strikes. Kindred, this blade and I."

What other proof do you need than this about how the Soul Reaver works.

Rando, c'mon now, the only reason Dumah existed in the spectral realm is because no one ate his soul, Kains soul was mixed with his would also play a part on why it was probably a lot stronger than a normal Vamps also because he was in the spectral realm so long. It takes years for a Vamp to become a wraith in the spirit realm. Hylden, we dont even know if they have the same ability to do so. SL, it does not matter for him his soul was sucked. Even if the SR didnt reave his soul the GATE WAS DESTROYED, the only means to the demon world no longer existed. Janos also states that the Hylden in Nosgoth will perish once the gate is destroyed, and Kain confirms this when he says "With the SL being one of them he would also die." or something of that nature he said.

My whole point is the SL is dead and not returning, he is dead physically and spiritually and the Hylden that was is nosgoth is also dead thats my whole point. Yes there are other Hylden in the demon world.

Umah Bloodomen
25th Aug 2002, 00:51
Originally posted by keepittrue
You guys just wanna dwell non factual things. Where is Warp at with the pictures. * keep goes off to find Warp *

Yeah, it is called speculation or theorizing :rolleyes: <sarcasm>Which some of us are having a hard time doing indepthly.</sarcasm>


Again from my late friend, Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: spec·u·late
Pronunciation: 'spe-ky&-"lAt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -lat·ed; -lat·ing
Etymology: Latin speculatus, past participle of speculari to spy out, examine, from specula watchtower, from specere to look, look at -- more at SPY
Date: 1599
intransitive senses
1 a : to meditate on or ponder a subject : REFLECT b : to review something idly or casually and often inconclusively
2 : to assume a business risk in hope of gain; especially : to buy or sell in expectation of profiting from market fluctuations
transitive senses
1 : to take to be true on the basis of insufficient evidence : THEORIZE <speculated that a virus caused the disease>
2 : to be curious or doubtful about : WONDER <speculates whether it will rain all vacation>
synonym see THINK
- spec·u·la·tor /-"lA-t&r/ noun


And yet again from my late friend, Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: spec·u·la·tion
Pronunciation: "spe-ky&-'lA-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: an act or instance of speculating : as a : assumption of unusual business risk in hopes of obtaining commensurate gain b : a transaction involving such speculation


And another from my late friend, Merriam-Webster

35 entries found for theory. The first 10 are listed below.
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Main Entry: the·o·ry
Pronunciation: 'thE-&-rE, 'thi(-&)r-E
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ries
Etymology: Late Latin theoria, from Greek theOria, from theOrein
Date: 1592
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>
4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances -- often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light>
6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations>



And finally from my late friend, Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: the·o·rize
Pronunciation: 'thE-&-"rIz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -rized; -riz·ing
Date: 1638
intransitive senses : to form a theory : SPECULATE
transitive senses
1 : to form a theory about
2 : to propose as a theory
- the·o·ri·za·tion /"thE-&-r&-'zA-sh&n, "thi(-&)r-&-/ noun
- the·o·riz·er noun

This more than defines what I am doing, and that I am justified for doing so. Keywords to look for:

hypothetical, and this was rather good:



4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances -- often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light>
6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations>





Originally posted by keepittrue
Oh well cant find him, anyway look real closely Umah at the end FMV of Blood Omen 2, the Hylden do die horrible deaths, your game must be really screwed if you cant see that.

[color=indigo]So you actually witnessed every Hylden in Nosgoth perish personally and one on one in your game's FMV? (Up close I mean). <sarcasm> Man, my copy must really be screwed up then. I didn't think the FMV was that long to show the graphic deaths of say 1000 or so Hylden. :rolleyes:

Let me clarify my original sarcasm:



Yes I've seen the ending FMV to BO2 and all I saw was a Hylden city crumbling and Kain walking off into the sunset as he reflected on Umah's death and implied of his future plans to raise the Sarafan bretheren. <sarcasm>There was no up-close graphic death scenes of each and every Hylden currently inhabiting Nosgoth, dying horrible deaths.</sarcasm>


Originally posted by keepittrue
Amazing Rando, use common sense what do you think Janos meant when he made that statement. He was refering to the connection between the 2, the fact that the baby needs the umbilical in its stages of life before it comes out the womb, surely you knew that much.

[color=indigo]First off, you appear not to agree with Rando, then contradict yourself in your next post. (And claim that his theory is plausable).

<sarcasm>Psssst...is this the spot where I jump down your throat and tell you that you aren't entitled?</sarcasm>

To elaborate more on what Rando said and revert back to my statement of this Hylden invasion, not being the full invasion:

I think that the umbilical cord statement refers to the Hylden still being dependent on their womb (demon dimension) once they successfully (and fully) invaded Nosgoth, that dependence would be severed and the cord would be cut. The Hylden would be free to roam Nosgoth (without a gate tying them back to their homeworld) and this would occur until the Pillars of Nosgoth were restored. (Techinically, the curse means squat at this point as long as Kain keeps refusing the sacrifice.


Originally posted by keepittrue


Umah this quote I made said the same thing you said:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by keepittrue
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I dont understant what you you mean Rando, she clearly stated that the Hylden in Nosgoth and the SL were immortal as in not dead or going to die totally, that is why she put those definitions up she was trying to back that point up, also she stated clearly that she believes THEY as in Hylden and SL in Nosgoth would return to DEMON world and wait for a moment to REinvade Nosgoth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the last time, the point I was stressing with the definitions was "unending existence". Which would mean not die off totally, I said nothing of the Hylden being being able to undergo a physical death. The Hylden (and I still assume all of them) exist in some way, shape or form, most likely in the demon dimension.


Thats exactly what the qoute said that I put down that you said.



Again, I was stressing my personal view onto all who come across this thread. (Seeing that you were arguing on what I said and when I said it). This was merely for clarification purposes.




Originally posted by keepittrue
Umah, you have no argument on the SL's death, I wish NE would show or Warp, maybe they can explain it better. Puting it simple, THE SL IS DEAD, THE SOUL REAVER ATE HIS SOUL HIS BODY IS WRACKED WITH INJURIES. Your whole physical thing is way off base, please explain how the SL could be alive in the demon world if he died as in dead in Nosgoth????????????????????

Obviously I do have an arguement if 3 other creative (and sane) individuals can somewhat agree with it, build on it and compliment me for it. (Rando, Tempy and Darakari). Again this paragraph goes along with my response topic. :p
Sure, maybe they can explain it better, I am not doubting that, but at least they will put forth an effort to further the idea with their own indepth speculations/theories and sway into non-factual information as well. Both individuals are highly intelligent and have done so in the past. <sarcasm> TSL's body was injured, but he vanished. We can't perform an autopsy now. </sarcasm>

As I said:



If I remember correctly, when TSL "died" he merely vanished. He wasn't sucked into the reaver as other foes have been in the other games. I just can't put my faith into the reaver claiming his soul without better proof.

In the other games, we were able to witness the Reaver actually reaving the soul of its victims (with the exception of BO1 because they kind of just exploded all over the place, but for discussion sake I will agree that the victims were reaved then as well). Rando also agrees with this statement, and didn't see the reaver actually reave anything. I want to clarify that yes, it is plausable that it could've happened anyway, but I have chosen the later path of building on this little technicality and assume that he wasn't actually reaved.


Originally posted by Rando

Well, he deprived the body of the soul, does that mean the soul can't live on on it's own? I think Raz would disagree. And what about wraiths, or Dumah, apparently if you are strong enough or there long enough, you're not necessarily just a floating soul are you. And how do you know that his soul couldn't just float around and through the gate so that it could regain it's immortality, which leads to some way of bringing it back. It wouldn't be the first time a soul was brought back into a body. *cough VAMPIREScoughTHE BROTHERScoughRAZIEL AS A SOUL REAVERcough*

And you haven't proven your point yet. All you're doing is looking at that one quote over and over and saying that your way of interpreting it is the only way and that everyone else is wrong in how they are looking at it. Untill the game proves you right, everyone's interpretation is just as valid and you haven't proven otherwise.

[color=indigo] Good show, my friend. I enjoyed this a lot. :). I especially would like to point out the importance of your first paragraph. I feel it is highly relevant.


Originally posted by Keepittrue


You can believe the Hylden in Nosgoth or the SL is alive all you want to, but you make no sense in your argument about that, and the qoute by Janos IMO disproves your argument anyway but you refuse to believe that so its hopeless that you will believe me if you dont even believe the game.

**smacks herself in the forehead*** You really haven't been listening have you? I never said they were alive in Nosgoth, in fact, my quotes and thoughts on Janos' quotes are completely opposite of that. I said that they still existed somehow in some way, shape, or form in the demon dimension and are able to reinvade Nosgoth so long as the Pillars are corrupted.

Here I go sounding like a broken record:


"They" would just return to their demonic dimension..."


I am inclined to believe that TSL was referring to their "physical" deaths in Nosgoth, but compare this to Indian culture and say that reincarnation could possibly be a factor. Again, it could be possible because TSL hints at something along those lines.

I've stated before, we don't really know the belief structure of either race (Hylden, Ancients or even prehistoric humans for that matter) and we most certainly do not know all the details surrounding the banishment, the war or what actually does happen in the demon dimension.




I agree that he met a physical demise, but I also stated that I feel that he somehow lives on in the demon dimension and stands to return to Nosgoth eventually. I also would like to point you all back to my definitions that I posted for Immortality...I am trying to stress the fact that I feel TSL and the Hylden have an "unending existence" which leads me to believe that if they aren't alive in Nosgoth physically, then they are in the demon dimension either physically, spiritually or both. And yes it was stated that the rest of the race still remained in the demon dimension:




Close the gate and the Hylden cannot hold a place in Nosgoth. There is NO mention of whether or not they return to the demon dimension. Notice though, that my speculation has not been ruled out.



I agree that he met a physical demise, but I also stated that I feel that he somehow lives on in the demon dimension and stands to return to Nosgoth eventually. I also would like to point you all back to my definitions that I posted for Immortality...I am trying to stress the fact that I feel TSL and the Hylden have an "unending existence" which leads me to believe that if they aren't alive in Nosgoth physically, then they are in the demon dimension either physically, spiritually or both. And yes it was stated that the rest of the race still remained in the demon dimension:


I don't dispute they didn't perish, I dispute their existence in some way, shape or form, in the demon dimension


I will agree with TempySmurf's opinion here as well. It furthers the speculations of TSL and the Hylden existing somehow and not ruling the fact of this happening out. (And provides another take on the matter)


Originally posted by Keepittrue
[b]
Yes Hylden still do exist in the demon world but not any of the ones we saw in BO2. What makes you think after they died in your so called physical form that they go to demon world, common sense tells you, they turn into flying souls and go into spectral realm for sluagh to eat them.

[color=indigo]Now you don't know that they Hylden we saw in BO2 don't/didn't revert back to the demon dimension, any more than I know (for a fact) that my theroy is true. I have stated over and over again why I think they go back to the demon dimension and you have not listened. I believe you are arguing with me in hopes I misspeak and contradict myself. You do not know if the soul of the Hylden go to the spectral realm. Again, we do not know their belief structure, death practices or much of anything else about their civilization at this point (other than the fact they look like the bad guys who just want revenge and that they are highly technoligically advanced).

Take for example - Christianity does not believe in Purgatory
(Catholicsim does). Christians also don't believe that if they martyr themselves they will go to heaven. (Much like the Muslim jihad (sp) where muslims believe that if they die in the name of their beliefs, they will automatically end up in their heaven (which differs from ours as do their gods). Hence why you see a lot of suicide bombers and the Al Qeida (sp?) going off on their little tangents in the name of their belief structure. Christians also don't believe in reincarnation, wheras Hindus do. (Do you see where I am going with this). There are already a lot of biblical and mythological references intertwind with the LOK series, why omit the fact another religious structure/belief system does not come into play?


Originally posted by Keepittrue
Posted by Umah:

If I remember correctly, when TSL "died" he merely vanished. He wasn't sucked into the reaver as other foes have been in the other games. I just can't put my faith into the reaver claiming his soul without better proof.

What kind of proof do you need I mean jeez.

And you have not backed uped you speculation, I dont need to back mine up, every LoK games states when the Soul Reaver STRIKES an enemy it reaves theyre soul bottom line.

Posted by Umah:
I just can't put my faith into the reaver claiming his soul without better proof.

Let me guess this is your back up.[



Janos:

It was in this way that the Sarafan Lord was able to enter the world, by building a magical gate. This is the Hylden Gate. Close this gate Kain, and all the Hylden within Nosgoth will perish.

Your translation is actually pretty good buit it also inludes this.

Real translation:

Hylden in Nosgoth die if you claose the Gate. PERIOD

I have stated why I found a flaw in the SR reaving TSL's soul. If you don't remember, look towards the top of this thread. My translation does include the Hylden dying off in Nosgoth again, this is not what I am disputing. I am arguing that just because they die off in Nosgoth, does not necessarily mean they die off in the demon realm.

EDIT Fixed a couple of loose tags.

Umah Bloodomen
25th Aug 2002, 00:55
Originally posted by Darakari
I have been impressed by "UmahBloodOmen" since she joined this forum. Her theories are always well thought out and her explanations are always detailed and accurate. "Uma" is one very intelligent woman in my opinion, and I am glad to have her as a member of this forum. Her insight into the LOK series is astounding. I can never explain my theories as well as she explains hers. Umah, and other members like her, are the reason that I keep coming back to this forum over and over, even though I'm so busy that I sometimes go weeks before I can return to the forum.

It is so hard to find positive feedback lately around here. You have definately brought a smile to my face and I wish to complement you on your presence here as well. :)
I've enjoyed it immensely. (No matter how tense things appear). ;) :p

keepittrue
25th Aug 2002, 07:15
Umah, you are just funny to read, you said you didnt see any Hylden die at the end. Now you are trying to hide that you are wrong by saying it was sarcasm, I mean jeez, pathetic.
I am not going to post any of your quotes because its pointless, you dont even believe yourself anymore.

I know what you were saying and I am saying that NONE of the HYLDEN in Nosgoth during BO2 is alive anymore in Nosgoth or Demon World in BO2/after BO2 including the SL.

Then you go and say did I witness each and every Hylden die in Nosgoth, of course I did not, I didnt say I did, I said they all died though. The end FMV wasnt going to show all the Hylden even though we dont know how many they're were, it was showing some of them dieing hopeing people like you would get the picture that the ALL the Hylden in Nosgoth died. I dont get how they can return to the Demon World if the gate is sealed either but you 3 disagree. The other 2 actually believes that the Soul Reaver does not suck souls I mean c'mon really, I dont even want to read that anymore. Or something crazy like that they posted. You or none of the other 2 have no proof on how the SL could be alive. The gate is sealed off so no they cant go to the Demon World, and as Kain says in BO1
The Soul Reaver
"Time fades even legend, and the origin of the Soul Reaver has been lost long ago. But its purpose remains - to feed on the souls of any creature it strikes. Kindred, this blade and I."

ANY CREATURE IT STRIKES, let me guess now the SL isnt a creature, I forgot, yeah right. The SL is gone no returning for him.

About you bringing religion into this is just a cop out of not having any proof on you theory, there is nothing wrong with theorizing but you and co cant accept that the ones that dwelled in Nosgoth are dead in BO2. I know you say that they died in Nosgoth but you believe they dwell in demon world which is impossible, the gates closed.

You guys can believe whatever, you can believe the Soul Reaver dosnt suck souls, you can believe the Soul Reaver didnt suck the SL's soul, you can believe that somehow even though the gates closed they managed to somehow get through to the demon world and get restored physically. Whatever, to me the theory isnt crap but its off base, and really not possible. No disrespect to any of you but I think that some of you dont have a good grasp of the story stateing some of the things you did.

Angel of Music
25th Aug 2002, 09:16
Umah, do you ever get that feeling, the feeling that you are screaming at a mountain to get out of your way? I know I do......

Can we consider this possibility?: Vampires are immortal, are they not? However, they are not indestructable; this truth has been witnessed and tested rigorously throughout the LoK series. Perhaps the Sarafan Lord, saying "our banishment ensures our immortality, meant that the rest of the Hylden would be sustained by their curse, to rise again once Kain and his kind had been successfully obliterated. How about this: As long as the Hylden are not actively killed, then they will not die over time. But then again, the SL could have been trying to give Kain a sense of futility. Consider this as well: Perhaps the weakening of the pillars is enough to allow only a small number of the Hylden through. It only took one to revive the Sarafan. It would only take one to do so again. If you can get your enemies to fight one another(i.e. the humans(sarafan) and the vampires), you have the advantage. You can potentially alter the outcome, or rig the game. Strategy would dictate that you help the weaker overcome the stronger, and then make your own presence known. I believe that the Sarafan Lord was indicating the general Hylden tactic of the waiting game. All the remaining Hylden must do is outlast the Vampires, correct? Who will stop them then?

TempySmurf
25th Aug 2002, 11:46
Honestly keep, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate and some of my responses aren't all that serious and more questioning and checking everyone's theories. Cause really, it's all about theories. Sure I don't know every little detail about the games. Such as what Kain said when he actually got the reaver cause all my save games are right after that. And that's why I asked.

On to my points. I would like to take a moment and break down all of the different versions of the Reaver so that there is no misunderstanding.

Version 1: Blood Reaver (although Raziel still calls it the Soul Reaver in SR2, but we all know he's not too incredibly observant at times). This is the original state of the Reaver which reaves the blood of its enemies. Presumably where the hylden get their idea for their curse.

Version 2: The Physical Soul Reaver (possibly two versions) We'll Refer to them as Version 2a (Kain's Version) and Version 2b (William's version), but that's not relevant to this conversation at this time. Perhaps even Version 2c (the broken Physical Soul Reaver).

Version 3: The Spectral form of the Soul Reaver attached to Raziel when he awakens from the abyss.

Version 4: The Soul Reaver attached to Raziel after it comes in contact with the broken Physical Soul Reaver (Version 2c). This is a more uncontrollable Soul Reaver attached to Raziel.

Version 5: The Soul Reaver attached to Raziel that wraps itself around the Blood Reaver. Making him invincible and eventually tries to consume himself. Thus creating the Soul Reaver from the Blood Reaver. In the original timeline he would be consumed fully (assumption). This is Version 5a and in the altered timeline he is not fully consumed making it Version 5b.

Now that that is settled. I would like to point out that NONE of the Soul Reavers SHOW the souls being consumed by the sword except Version 4. Version 5 does not show the souls being consumed. All of the Sarafan buddies souls actually float away. It tries to consume Raziel, but that's a completely different story altogether. Version 3 shows the souls floating away and Raziel is the one who consumes them. Version 1 consumes blood. And Version 2....

I have verified that Kain does say what you say, and so one would assume by Kain's words that this is true. This is only Kain's word and doesn't make it so. None of the Blood Omen series show the souls being consumed by the Physical Soul Reaver (Version 2). They just mess people up. You can come to two conclusions from this. BO1's graphics weren't advanced enough and they just had a big blowing up thang going on, and in BO2 it was sort of a cheat type thing and so they never bothered with making it engulf their souls. Or, that Kain's assumption about the Physical Soul Reaver (Version 2) was wrong and it only deprives enemies of their souls and does not engulf them.

Since we have not actually seen the Physical Soul Reaver (Version 2) ever suck a soul into itself, you're just assuming, just as I am. I actually believe that it probably does consume souls, but that doesn't make it so. I also believe that SL is dead, but that doesn't make it so either. I also believe that the words "embilical cord" are only a metaphor. You can come to any conclusion you want using a metaphor. That's why they're dangerous, if you try to treat them facts. Quoting what someone says in the game doesn't make it so either. It's very clear that the whole point is to make you think of many possible solutions. Anyways, I do believe that the only hylden that possibly died.. what would be the singular for hylden? Hylda? LOL.. anyways.. I think that the only one who is probably "dead", as in no longer existing in any form (other than possibly trapped inside the Soul Reaver, depending on what the Soul Reaver does with the souls it consumes) is SL. There's just too many things that suggest that it was a way for them to exist in a dimension they weren't suppose to be in and not that it controlled their ability to exist at all.

Now, onto other checks and balances. I'm rather confused on why everyone thinks that the way SL got back into the physical dimension was because the pillars were "unlocked" or the gaurdians are not "pure" or however else you want to look at it. The pillars are still intact. The hylden can't just come back. I believe that SL made it back into the physical world because of either one or two "paradoxes" (and I use that term loosely). Paradox one: Two Physical Soul Reavers (Version 2a and Version 2b) encounter each other at the same time. Kain fights William. This creates a "rift" (I Use that term loosely as well) in time while time tries to figure out what the hell to do.. so basically it's confused. The SL takes advantage of that moment and tricks his way into the physical dimension where he's not suppose to be. Thus breaking the rules, by breaking the system momentarily. Then you have Paradox 2: When Raziel tries to consume himself and Kain stops it from happening. Perhaps, also a paradox 3 when Raziel doesn't kill Kain. However, I believe one of those momentary shuffles in time allows SL to enter. Not because the pillars are weakened or "unlocked" or in disarray. If that were the case all of the hylden could come back. One of the keys that makes me believe this is the ending of SR2 where he says it was a trap. Meaning that Kain thought he could change something by creating a paradox, but it was actually the hylden's idea to make Kain think he would change something so they could change something instead. That being, entering into the physical world. Not that that particular "rift" allowed SL to come back, because he could have come back during williams "rift", and this new "rift" will be apparent in SR3 or it could be BO2 that he was talking about. That's still up in the air. I lean towards BO2 being the altered timeline, but I think that debate is still wide open with no evidence to confidently assume either way. This is also why they need the Gate in order to maintain their existance in the physical world. By cheating the curse, because the Gate allows them to technically still exist in the demon dimension and in the physical dimension at the same time. This is why, I think, that we all believe that all the hylden didn't "die" as in stop existing. They just went back to the demon dimension, because once the Gate was destroyed, the curse went into effect and sent them back to where they belonged. In the demon dimension.

I think that's all for now.. anyways.. I do agree with the Daraki even though I sometimes (very rarely, but sometimes) think her ideas are way out there.. but hey.. like mine aren't. Or at least hers more logical than some of the crazy things I've heard people say.

Vampmaster
25th Aug 2002, 13:11
BO1 is the only game in which the physical blade is seen to consume souls. In SR1 & 2 it is always the wraith blade that is used. When you cheat in BO2, you can kill loads of enemies with it and not see a single soul. It could be that Raz can see the souls (cause he needs to) and the SR games are from his point of view. Or it could be that in BO2 they were too lazy (or didn't have time) to put in an effect in for it.

keepittrue
25th Aug 2002, 22:18
I hat to say this but Tempy, you are not accurate on your Reaver explanations, some of them or way off base and I will enlighten you as much as possble.

1. The SOUL REAVER in blood omen which is the first Soul Reaver we see sucks soul, William was armed with the same Soul Reaver which also sucks souls . Any creture it strikes it sucks its soul.

2. The second time we see the Soul Reaver is in Soul Reaver1 the game. That was the same Soul Reaver used in BO1 which sucks souls.

3. The Wraith Blade which is also a Soul Reaver, but it is refered to as the Wraith Blade. This is the trapped soul that was inside the Soul Reaver that sucks souls but released in SR1. The Entity awakened again once it felt the presence of its former self.

4. The (Blood) Reaver, in SR2 they NEVER refer to the (Blood) Reaver as the Soul Reaver. They always say Reaver which is why Raziel never felt anything to when he was near it.

I think you are getting confused on thinking there are 2 Soul Reaver blades, when there is only one. Time travel makes this possible. There is one wraith blade which it comes from the Soul Reaver, it only changes its attitude in SR2 but still the same blade. Only one Soul Reaver in the whole series and time travel seems to confuse you guys, so if we see one Soul Reaver in one game suck souls thn it goes for every game because there is only ONE Soul Reaver. I dont know how to explain it better but I think like in February me and Warp and a few others had a debate going and he seemed to explain it to me real good maybe he can explain it again or if I can look back at the old forums I can find it.

Also Janos has already said in BO2 that the SL escaped because of Kains faithful decision at the pillars. It weakened the pillars enough to let one through.

Umah Bloodomen
25th Aug 2002, 23:50
Originally posted by keepittrue
Umah, you are just funny to read, you said you didnt see any Hylden die at the end. Now you are trying to hide that you are wrong by saying it was sarcasm, I mean jeez, pathetic.
I am not going to post any of your quotes because its pointless, you dont even believe yourself anymore.

I will always admit when I am wrong. Check a lot of my threads where my views have changed and I became willing to accept a different theory than that of my own. Secondly, I have been sarcastic in this forum since April 2002 (the day I joined) and I am even more sarcastic lately, <sarcasm>although I must point it out to those who aren't as perceptive to it.</sarcasm> (Hence the "sarcasm" tags). <sarcasm>I am sorry that you can't pick up on sarcasm as well as others can, but I will do my best to cater to you and anyone else with a similar problem by offering the sarcastic tags to illustrate where it is apparent. :rolleyes: </sarcasm>.

I have never once insulted you and you sit here and have the chutzpah to call me pathetic? :mad: I would insert something here but I know it is far from "forum appropriate" :rolleyes: I have the utter decency and respect for you and others in this forum to keep my personal insults to myself. Your lack of maturity involving this little matter of name-slinging is total BS and I will not reduce myself to your level by throwing insults back at you. Obviously you cannot further this debate without resorting to low blows, and until you can discuss matters such as this maturely and without crap like this (the name-slinging), then kindly refrain from wasting valuable discussion time.

As far as not posting any of my quotes, I did point my quotes to again further support my personal view on this matter. I have already clarified what was originally said to Chinese-soul-eater and that wasn't good enough for you because you still seem to dwell on it. I have an idea that my theories and speculations are plausable and will continue to have that idea until it is thoroughly disproved by future installments of the game.


Originally posted by keepittrue
I know what you were saying and I am saying that NONE of the HYLDEN in Nosgoth during BO2 is alive anymore in Nosgoth or Demon World in BO2/after BO2 including the SL.

I also agreed that the Hylden in Nosgoth ceased to live. But I also stated that they still exist somewhere, somehow in some form. (Which I also added that I believed they returned to the demon dimension). I won't repeat myself, the quotes are in my last response. I said they met their physical demise in Nosgoth and created the speculation that their souls returned to the demon dimension. I have agreed again and again that the Hylden hold in Nosgoth was lost when the gate closed, but each one of my statements reverts back to how I speculated they continue to live on back in the demon dimension. The only thing I said about the Hylden in Nosgoth, is the fact that I believe they still stand to attempt another invasion of Nosgoth so long as the Pillars are corrupted (from the demon dimension).


Originally posted by keepittrue
Then you go and say did I witness each and every Hylden die in Nosgoth, of course I did not, I didnt say I did, I said they all died though. The end FMV wasnt going to show all the Hylden even though we dont know how many they're were, it was showing some of them dieing hopeing people like you would get the picture that the ALL the Hylden in Nosgoth died. I dont get how they can return to the Demon World if the gate is sealed either but you 3 disagree. The other 2 actually believes that the Soul Reaver does not suck souls I mean c'mon really, I dont even want to read that anymore. Or something crazy like that they posted. You or none of the other 2 have no proof on how the SL could be alive. The gate is sealed off so no they cant go to the Demon World, and as Kain says in BO1
The Soul Reaver
"Time fades even legend, and the origin of the Soul Reaver has been lost long ago. But its purpose remains - to feed on the souls of any creature it strikes. Kindred, this blade and I."

Again this refers to the sarcasm you missed originally. This also points back to the belief structure and the details of the curse (which is currently unknown by anyone here, myself included). The gate being sealed IMO means that anymore Hylden in the demon dimension cannot enter Nosgoth for the full invasion which Janos mentioned the Hylden weren't yet able to accomplish. It doesn't necessarily mean that the Hylden don't return. The soul of the Hylden does not necessarily have to return the way its physical form came. This again depends on the curse details, amendments to the curse (issued by Hash'ak'gik and his alliance with the Hylden if there is one), the Hylden belief structure, and heck, their own magic/curses/spells and whatnot.
I can't comment on the Soul Reaver beliefs of others who have commented on it. I need to ponder them over a bit more, so that does not concern me at this point. From what I know and have witnessed of the Soul Reaver, when it reaves, you can watch the soul entering the blade (at least within the later games, but as I said before, for the sake of discussion I would include BO1). TSL was not dragged into the blade, hence why I felt there was a flaw with him being reaved. He vanished there before Kain.

<not-to-be-confused-with-my theories-of-this-topic>
Also we know that the Soul Reaver was never forged to be a Soul Reaving weapon. For discussion's sake, we don't know what timeline/era that SR3 will take place and it could be possible that it occurs pre-BO2, giving it a chance to return to its roots and go back to a normal blade. (This is far-fetched, but it is an idea. This speculation does not weigh over my views of the topic at hand)
</not-to-be-confused-with-my theories-of-this-topic>


Originally posted by keepittrue
ANY CREATURE IT STRIKES, let me guess now the SL isnt a creature, I forgot, yeah right. The SL is gone no returning for him.

This is just asinine. :rolleyes: You are grasping at straws and failing miserably.


Originally posted by keepittrue
About you bringing religion into this is just a cop out of not having any proof on you theory, there is nothing wrong with theorizing but you and co cant accept that the ones that dwelled in Nosgoth are dead in BO2. I know you say that they died in Nosgoth but you believe they dwell in demon world which is impossible, the gates closed.

Civilizations having religious practices is a cop out? Hmmm...did you fail Sociology by chance? (Out of curiosity). I have established that the belief structure, social structure and whatnot may weigh heavily over the Hylden. (As it does with any civilization today or in any ficticious medium for that matter). FOR THE LAST TIME I am not disputing they are dead in Nosgoth, I am disputing their existence. I am disputing that I believe that they returned to the Demon Dimension in some way, shape or form. No one else is disputing that either, they are enhancing on the statement "our banishment ensures our immortality". It is not impossible for them to exist in the demon dimension because of all of the unknowns that I have brought to light in this discussion. (Religious practices/beliefs, curse details/amendments, Hylden magic, and other factors). They may be impossible to you, (hell, obviously it is :rolleyes: )but others have been more than willing to comment (indepthly) about how this information I have presented could/couldn't work. You are one person - that obviously can't/won't be swayed, that's fine. But others have found this discussion worthwhile enough to build on it. I choose the majority for my target audiance.


Originally posted by keepittrue
You guys can believe whatever, you can believe the Soul Reaver dosnt suck souls, you can believe the Soul Reaver didnt suck the SL's soul, you can believe that somehow even though the gates closed they managed to somehow get through to the demon world and get restored physically. Whatever, to me the theory isnt crap but its off base, and really not possible. No disrespect to any of you but I think that some of you dont have a good grasp of the story stateing some of the things you did.

You've more than implied you feel that our theories are crap. (Notice I said "implied" not "expressed"). And that's fine, as I said, others seemed to have found enjoyment with it and that's all I care about. I happen to like my ideas/theories/speculations. If I didn't I wouldn't post them. I think the others who have participated in this topic have done so effectively and even built upon their statements accordingly.

EDIT Had to fix the name "chinese-soul-eater" because I originally called him "chinese-soul-reaver" LOL.

EDIT 2 Edited a smiley.

Umah Bloodomen
26th Aug 2002, 00:12
Originally posted by Angel of Music
Umah, do you ever get that feeling, the feeling that you are screaming at a mountain to get out of your way? I know I do......

Can we consider this possibility?: Vampires are immortal, are they not? However, they are not indestructable; this truth has been witnessed and tested rigorously throughout the LoK series. Perhaps the Sarafan Lord, saying "our banishment ensures our immortality, meant that the rest of the Hylden would be sustained by their curse, to rise again once Kain and his kind had been successfully obliterated. [quote]

I am not clear on what you are trying to get at, with the end of this. (Please elaborate more if possible). Let me explain how I've read it:

Vampires can live forever, but can be harmed (stakes through hearts, heads cut off, rain, sun etc.) and they can also die from some of these affects. The Hylden are obviously sustained within the Demon Dimension. Again, we do not know the specifics involving the original curse placed upon them by the Ancients. Some specific points that affect your statement Angel are these:

1. Were the Ancients and Hylden immortal pre-war/pre-curse?

2. Why would the Ancients curse the Hylden to have an "unending existence"? (Doesn't make sense, seeing the Hylden were the only threat to the Ancients, it would stand to reason they would want them to perish).

3. When Kain dies, and the vampires die, does the magic surrounding the Pillars still remain active? (Does it still serve as the "lock"? Does the "key" still have its own power?

If the Pillars still remain uncorrupted and active:

1. Do they choose new guardians and the lock still serve as it should? (To keep the Hylden out).

If they do, then no the Hylden will not be able to return because they will still be barred out.

These are some of the "specifics" that aren't clear at this point in the storyline. I am not ruling them out, but I am questioning them in hopes to further develop more substantial evidence. :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Angel of Music
How about this: As long as the Hylden are not actively killed, then they will not die over time. But then again, the SL could have been trying to give Kain a sense of futility.

Similar to a vampire (stake through the heart, head decapitated etc. - or whatever kills a Hylden). I wouldn't put it past TSL to give Kain a sense of futility, but I am sure that he knows that Kain just isn't that guillable and therefore I will assume he was speaking the truth. He seems to want redemption for his race, to prove the Ancients wrong and that they are infact the badguys (hence the dialogue where TSL asks what if our cause was the one that was righteous? (or something to that effect).


Originally posted by Angel of Music
Consider this as well: Perhaps the weakening of the pillars is enough to allow only a small number of the Hylden through. It only took one to revive the Sarafan. It would only take one to do so again. If you can get your enemies to fight one another(i.e. the humans(sarafan) and the vampires), you have the advantage.

We know from the dialogue with Janos that one was able to breach through the barrier because of some major event. (Which wasn't specifically named, but I also assumed was due to the corruption of the Pillars). This one did start the Sarafan (which had been a major institution in Nosgoth's prehistory and more likely to sway the humans to the side of the Hylden (against the vampires).

Let me know if you would like me to find that dialogue for you, Angel.


Originally posted by Angel of Music
You can potentially alter the outcome, or rig the game. Strategy would dictate that you help the weaker overcome the stronger, and then make your own presence known. I believe that the Sarafan Lord was indicating the general Hylden tactic of the waiting game. All the remaining Hylden must do is outlast the Vampires, correct? Who will stop them then?

Interesting here. I do like this. I don't think it was a question of Hylden outlasting the vampires (the vampire race had already dwindled to a minimum in Nosgoth during the course of BO2). I think the strategy was to ensure that the gate stayed open to allow for the full invasion, thus securing their victory. (I would assume with their technological advances and belief structure and/or magic abilities (if any) they would be invincible).

EDIT Fixed a quote tag.

TempySmurf
26th Aug 2002, 03:26
I'd have to disagree once again. There is no image, that I am aware of, where the Physical Soul Reaver (Version 2) actually sucks any souls in BO1. Kain states that that is its purpose, but it only shows bodies exploding, it doesn't show any souls being sucked. Not that I don't agree that it probably sucks souls, I'm just saying that it has never shown the Physical Soul Reaver (Version 2) sucking souls. If someone can tell me an exact instance where this occurs in BO1 I'd be happy to change my belief.

The Physical Soul Revear (Version 2b) in Soul Reaver the game, shows the sword being "shattered" upon hitting Raziel. I don't have Soul Reaver the game anymore, but this is what I've read and it does happen in the first scene of the game. So the Physical Soul Reaver (Version 2b) is only present for that one moment in the game and never seen again until Soul Reaver 2.

The Wraith Blade is still the Soul Reaver (Version 3). The reason I broke down the different versions of the Soul Reaver was to make it more clear on the properties and the form the Soul Reaver is in. Obviously this did not help you. I do not think there is more than one Soul Reaver. The different versions are only for clarification purposes as stated above, and have nothing to do with there being more than one Soul Reaver. And as I've stated before, only Version 4 sucks souls. Raziel sucks the souls in Version 3. The Soul Reaver version 3 only releases the souls from the enemy it does not consume them.

And you are right when you say that Raziel only refers to it as the Reaver, the site I got the dialogue from called it the Soul Reaver, but not the actual dialogue itself. But that's of little importance to any of my points other than Raziel not being all that observant. If you want to argue that I can find more accurate references for you.

As I've also mentioned before, just because someone says something doesn't make it so (refering to Janos). If you remember that Raziel also says something to the fact that killing Kain wouldn't actually restore the pillars. Which is more of a clue into the true cause of the problem (the pillars and the decay and so on) and not what they (Raziel and young Kain) have been lead to believe.

Angel of Music
26th Aug 2002, 03:37
Umah, what I am getting at is that the Hylden are obviously superior to the humans. That leaves the vampires in Nosgoth as their only competition for dominance. By reviving the Sarafan, the Hylden can effectively wage war upon the vampires without the loss of a single one of their own numbers. Then, after they have used/helped one to defeat the other, they can crush what is left and claim their dominion. You ask some very hard questions, though. Let's see here.


1. Were the Ancients and Hylden immortal pre-war/pre-curse?

I have no way of knowing this. I have a scenario I can propose though. Let us assume that neither race was immortal. Let us also say that the unending existance(regardless of form) was part of the curse laid upon the Hylden for their apparent(?) transgressions, in order for their torment/banishment to never end(kind of vindictive, isn't it?). Then, let us assume that in response to this, the Hylden supplied the Ancients with a curse of their own(and we all know about this one). BUT, there is a hole here. If the Hylden cursed the Ancients with immortality, why was Janos the only one left? My question is: Why did the ancient vampires die off, but the undead vampires do not? Vorador says that Janos's entire bloodline trickled away. Why are the undead vampires exempt from this apparent mortality? Something doesn't add up.


2. Why would the Ancients curse the Hylden to have an "unending existence"? (Doesn't make sense, seeing the Hylden were the only threat to the Ancients, it would stand to reason they would want them to perish).

See above scenario. I would assume that the ancients believed the pillars a fool proof way to lock the Hylden out, and that death would not be a suitable punishment, hence the curse of immortality.


3. When Kain dies, and the vampires die, does the magic surrounding the Pillars still remain active? (Does it still serve as the "lock"? Does the "key" still have its own power?

These days in Nosgoth, who knows? Or, who, if they did, would tell you the truth? I am betting on no, for one simple reason. There has been no mention of new guardians since the corruption. My bet is that the elder god(squiddy) siezed the chance at Kain's refusal to begin tearing down the pillars. Notice how the only one left standing is the balance pillar. Corrupted, yes; to it's core, but still 'served' by Kain, and still standing. The other pillars, I am betting, did not call new guardians(maybe because there was no balance). This possibility is furthered by the fact that Moebius and Squiddy are compelling Raziel as best they can to murder Kain's future self, under the guise of restoring the pillars. The death of Kain's future self would only leave the final pillar without a guardian, corrupted or not. And I am sure this is the outcome that the Hylden are shooting for, to topple the last pillar, and procure their reentry into Nosgoth. In addition, Janos makes the statement that the Pillars are the lock, and the reaver is the key(yeah, i know. DUH, everybody knows this). Now, let us assume that Moebius is working for/with the Hylden, along with the Elder God(another DUH, i know). the two of them keep pushing Raziel to destroy Kain. Since Kain is the final pillar( the others are left toppled at this point), and we have to assume that Raziel would use the Reaver, isn't this essentially using the key on the last lock? And what do keys do to locks? We must agree though, that all this is speculation, at best.
Yes Umah, you have read the post as I intended. What I am trying to imply is that the Hylden's immortality is defined like this: Unless acted upon by an outside force(an angry young vampire in the ghetto), the Hylden will not "passively" perish. In other words, they won't die, not they can't die, which they obviously can.(The builder asked Kain for death, did he not? And Kain, to the best of his knowledge and ability, complied, did he not?)

keepittrue
26th Aug 2002, 10:18
I am sorry Umah for insulting you or anyone else on this forum, I admit I did get out line. You just have not gotten used to me yet. As a matter of fact I stopped posting as much in April. Ask NE, Rio, Warp or Mr. Sock( I dont know what his new name is ), I used to make some of them mad, I remember we had like a 6 page debate on weather or not Raziel can use ther HoD or not, it was funny, but I always enjoy theories and good debates. My apologies.

On the topic, I guess you are right, I wont change my mind and neither will you, I think we have to agree to disgree. Fair enough.

Tempy, I dont understand you at all. How can you say you believe that one version of the SOUL Reaver sucks souls but not the others if you believe only in one Soul Reaver. The Reaver is the only one that did not suck souls. As a matter of fact, if each and every last one of your so-called versions did not contain Raziels soul and did not suck souls or be the EXACT same one as the others than there would be NO paradox. There is only one Soul Reaver.

Let me explain again:

The soul reaver in Blood Omen1 is the same soul reaver in Soul Reaver1 which is the same soul reaver in Soul Reaver2 which is the same soul reaver in Blood Omen2 which the soul reaver contained the Wraith Blade/Raziels soul. If you see the Wraith Blade or any time in any of the games see the Soul Reaver suck a soul it is safe to say the Soul Reaver in every game sucks souls because in each game there is only one Soul Reaver which the Wraith Blade was a part of. One Soul Reaver, the only versions of the Soul Reaver is the Wraith Blade/Raziel Soul and the Soul Reaver sword, there is NO other versions. Get it now?

TempySmurf
26th Aug 2002, 11:08
Because the Reaver has different properties at different points in the games. At one point it's the Blood Reaver, it reaves the blood of its opponent. Then there is the Physical version of the Soul Reaver which reaves souls (whether it consumes the souls is slightly up for debate, but I think we both really agree that it consumes them, I was merely arguing that it has never been SEEN only stated). Then you have Raziel's Wraith Blade which is the spectral version of the Soul Reaver, in so many words. The Wraith Blade goes through many transformations of power and properties. In the beginning it only reaves souls and does not consume them. Then when Raziel comes in contact with the Broken Physical Soul Reaver it gains a new sense of power and becomes stronger, and is no longer the same "version" as the previous Wraith Blade. This one consumes souls. Then you have the Wraith Blade that is wrapped around the Blood Reaver, which makes Raziel invincible. That's the SAME Reaver with different properties and thus I referred to them as different versions to clarify the differences. I hope perhaps you understand what I'm saying and I can stop sounding like a broken record.

How about arguing which way the SL actually got into nosgoth, that'd be more interesting.

keepittrue
26th Aug 2002, 18:55
The way the SL got in is irrelevant, we already know why he was released as I explained earlier.

You have your versions confused, when Raziel had the Blood Reaver the wraith blade was NOT coiled around the Reaver, it was disabled. When the wraith blade started sucking souls in the beg of SR2, nothing changed about it, it just awoken. The Reaver sucks blood, the Soul Reaver sucks souls and so does the wraith blade but the wraith blade is a part of the soul reaver.

Vampmaster
26th Aug 2002, 20:29
Maybe you just don't see the souls being consumed when the soul reaver is still in it's corporial prison. (I put "in it's corporial prison" so everyone knows that I am not saying there's more than one blade) When you're playing as Raziel you need to see the souls so you can consume them. If it does not show the souls getting consumed it's probably just a mistake or something that they didn't put a graphic in for it. You can kill hundreds of people if you use the cheat and not see a single soul.

Angel of Music
27th Aug 2002, 00:07
Originally posted by Angel of Music
What I am trying to imply is that the Hylden's immortality is defined like this: Unless acted upon by an outside force(an angry young vampire in the ghetto), the Hylden will not "passively" perish. In other words, they won't die, not they can't die, which they obviously can.(The builder asked Kain for death, did he not? And Kain, to the best of his knowledge and ability, complied, did he not?)

What I should say is that so far, I would define the Hylden's immortality as such. This is set in stone by no means. Hmm.....children are a form if immortality..........but that is a different thread, I think.

keepittrue
27th Aug 2002, 01:02
Just wanted to point out a few things.


Q: The blue ancients, reproduce like humans, until they get the Blood Curse,
then they are infertile for whatever reason, thus they die out. This is why
they are extinct right?
Except for Janos and maybe Raz
A: That's partially right. Before the blood curse, the ancient Vampires could reproduce; following the curse, they became immortal but could no longer reproduce offspring. They could only pass on their vampiric gift/curse to human "offspring" (as Janos did to Vorador).
But this isn't necessarily why they were extinct.


Janos:

Ah, now we come to your part in this story. When you chose to destroy the Pillar of Balance, you caused a rift throughout the world, sufficient to breach through the dimensions.
Kain V.O.:

Was it I then who had engendered this war? No. I had been set step by step upon the path that lead to this outcome. Hadn't this all been a Hylden plot from the beginning?
My mind reeled at the implications.
Janos:

It was in this way that the Sarafan Lord was able to enter the world, by building a magical gate. This is the Hylden Gate. Close this gate Kain, and all the Hylden within Nosgoth will perish.

Hope this helps.

TempySmurf
27th Aug 2002, 13:24
Okay, I agree with you about the wraith blade not being present when he's fighting his "brothers". I knew that already, don't know what I said that. Then it was only the Blood Reaver with Raziel holding it. The wraith blade doesn't coil itself around the blood reaver until after he's defeated his human self. So then I guess you could say there were 6 "versions", being the physical form of the blood reaver sustaining Raziel in the physical world making him invincible, because the sword wouldn't allow him to disconnect from their connection or something to that effect.



Raziel V.O.:
Using his staff to disable my wraith-blade, Moebius had effectively disarmed me, leaving me with only one choice of weapon.
And yet I confess, it was not the lack of options, but blind rage that made me take up the Reaver - in my fury, it felt as though my hand had acted of its own will.
And now that same hand clutched the hilt with unyielding strength - and I felt a constrained tingling, a remote but palpable sense of longing as the disabled wraith-blade tried vainly to embrace it's physical twin.



Raziel:
Now that I had taken it up, the Reaver and I were inescapably joined. The harder I tried to release the blade, the more tightly my hand gripped the hilt, as if possessed of its own will.

Raziel:
The Reaver exerted some mysterious power over me. It sustained my energy, enabling me to prolong my physical manifestation indefinitely. In fact, bonded to the blade as I was, I could no longer shift into the spirit realm at will. Nor was I able to summon the Reaver's twin, for my wraith-blade had been disabled in the confrontation with Moebius.



Raziel V.O.:
Sensing its twin, the wraith-blade uncoiled itself from me - and instead wound lovingly around its former self.


Interesting quote from Janos, however if you quote more:

before your quote



Janos:

They were, Kain, but several centuries ago, one of the Hylden was able to return to our world. He then used his magic to draw other Hylden through, but had not yet the power to begin a full invasion. He required an army here, and humans to drain of energy. He learned of a legendary order whose purpose was to purge the world of vampires long ago. He revived this order, and the Sarafan were born again.

Kain:

The Sarafan Lord. It was he that broke through - but how?


and after your quote



Janos:
Ah, close the gate, and kill the Sarafan Lord, Kain. Close the gate, and shut the Hylden from the world once again.

and slightly after that



Janos:

He has created a base in this world. The Hylden City, across the sea. There he has opened a gate to bring his kind into our world. My plan was to teleport us to the Hylden City, and launch a final assault on the Sarafan Lord, but now I find there is some kind of shield of magic that prevents me. If we are to fight them, that shield must be destroyed.


Notice how Janos uses the Ah, as in he's not exactly saying No. Meaning that the SL can't just be defeated by closing the gate. Which would make me think that SL's magic let him get through and not the gate. It's also suggested that he entered Nosgoth with magic and then opened the gate himself in the physical world. I'm still not sure how a rift was created because of the pillars. They may be weakened, but for the SL to only be able to bring himself and a few through using magic doesn't really add up. If he could use magic I would imagine that it would be a limited time thing. You could assume that if he only had a moment to cast a spell with only so much magical power during a rift that this would make sense. However if you use the pillars as the key to the rift then he would have all the time he wanted and the gate wouldn't be necessary. Just because Kain decided not to sacrifice himself at that one moment wouldn't create a rift. If it was because he decided to "destroy" the pillar of balance then the rift would be constant. I don't see why it would create a rift. I see how two Soul Reavers meeting at the same time would create a rift, or how changing the events of history would create a rift, by not letting Raziel be consumed by the blade. So I still think that it was one of these events that would let the SL enter the physical deminsion. Of course this is all theory, I'm just not too convienced that it's the pillars or Kain's pillar decision that let SL get through.

And I'd ask how Janos is suppose to know all this being imprisoned, but I think there's already been a thread on that somewhere.

necropotence
28th Aug 2002, 07:57
HEY UMAH! (Necro shout's over the argue'ing)

In reference to this thread's actual subject ;) I had never thought about you're idea, about the Seer being the one portaid in the mural's in the Hylden city. But I did think she was hylden she did'nt look human, and in the end credit's picture's there is a picture that look's alot like her but with arm's like those warrior Hylden.

Umah Bloodomen
29th Aug 2002, 02:11
Originally posted by necropotence
HEY UMAH! (Necro shout's over the argue'ing)

In reference to this thread's actual subject ;) I had never thought about you're idea, about the Seer being the one portaid in the mural's in the Hylden city. But I did think she was hylden she did'nt look human, and in the end credit's picture's there is a picture that look's alot like her but with arm's like those warrior Hylden.


**yells back*** I am glad you found my thread subject (at least the original one) interesting. ;)

Secrets Of Nosgoth
2nd Sep 2002, 19:48
Reply to page 1:

Heh, I only got through page 1 so far, and would like to get things off my mind before they leave it. So forgive me if this is redundant, I will be reading the other pages within the next few days. It is a lot of writing, and takes a lot of time for a slow reader as myself to go over it.

I am starting to believe that the Seer and Sarafan Lord's past could be very close together. Siblings or not, it doesn't really matter, if she is indeed a hylden, which I'll assume she is. Then her betrayal of the Hylden led to pitty from Janos, and the likes of him.

But to this "If the Seer had the power to teleport Kain out of the burning house, then naturally she would've followed suit and teleported out herself." I have an argument that would say otherwise. Janos to Raziel in SR2 towards the ending. He saved Raziel, but didn't save himself. Are we to be led to think that this is the case with the Seer to Kain? But that the Seer is actually much more magically powerful than Janos was.

That's it for now, I'll be back shortly.

Edit: As long as no one has replied I will reply with Edits to this post:

Reply to page 2:

Wow, heated debate going. Instead of the Seer and SL, we get the Soul Reaver discussion.

I really like the idea towards the end about the Soul Reaver versions. But I would like to point out that right now, we now nothing of the SR and how it was originated. I will, for the sake of argument, assume that every form of the reaver is in fact, physical and reaves/sucks the souls of its victims. Hear me out: From SR2 we found out that Raziel was the Soul Reaver, his soul is the driving force of the weapon. As soon as he was struck by the reaver from Kain he made the fate of the weapon the way it is to this date (present day Nosgoth SR timeline). Meaning he sucks the souls of his victims, that is his job, when he became attached to the soul reaver he had a weapon to help him in his job. Skipping major events to the major paradox that has yet to happen, Raziel will eventually become trapped in a sword, and I imagine in the very very early history of Nosgoth, the dawn of the reaver and the pillars. And because he is trapped in the sword, it takes on his characteristics, the ability to suck souls.

That is my soul reaver hypothesis. Now onto the death of the SL. While he may be immortal, I believe he has zero chance of coming back, unless the soul reaver gets totally destroyed and the souls inside it get let go. His soul may be immortal, but it is being fed upon by the Soul Reaver, or Raziel's soul inside the weapon for all of eternity. Had the SL died by any other weapon, then perhaps he would have simply vanished into the demon realm. But that isn't the case, he got attacked by the Soul Reaver, therefore his soul instead of being teleported to the demon realm, got stuck in the limbo that is the Soul Reaver. It's like Christianity with Hell and Heaven. Our bodies may die, but we (christians) believe that our souls are eternal, and either die eternally, or live eternally. I'm using my words, so by "die eternally" I mean torture, I equate this to the Soul Reaver, eternal torture, you may be alive, but for all intesnive purposes, you are dead. No way to escape the Soul Reaver.

Again, that's it for now.

Umah Bloodomen
2nd Sep 2002, 20:31
Originally posted by Secrets Of Nosgoth
Reply to page 1:

Heh, I only got through page 1 so far, and would like to get things off my mind before they leave it. So forgive me if this is redundant, I will be reading the other pages within the next few days. It is a lot of writing, and takes a lot of time for a slow reader as myself to go over it.

No worries. Take your time, we'll be here. :p


Originally posted by Secrets Of Nosgoth
I am starting to believe that the Seer and Sarafan Lord's past could be very close together. Siblings or not, it doesn't really matter, if she is indeed a hylden, which I'll assume she is. Then her betrayal of the Hylden led to pitty from Janos, and the likes of him.

Perhaps pity, but Janos doesn't seem to issue pity so easily, especially seeing the Hylden race was so distrusted. I originally believed that Janos could be romantically linked, but I stepped off that theory because I don't feel this is a Springer episode. :p. I think that it may have come down to the Seer seeking asylum in return for helping the Ancients.


Originally posted by Secrets Of Nosgoth
But to this "If the Seer had the power to teleport Kain out of the burning house, then naturally she would've followed suit and teleported out herself." I have an argument that would say otherwise. Janos to Raziel in SR2 towards the ending. He saved Raziel, but didn't save himself. Are we to be led to think that this is the case with the Seer to Kain? But that the Seer is actually much more magically powerful than Janos was.

That's it for now, I'll be back shortly.

This are two different areas of the spectrum. Janos is the "Christ" figure of the series. It is assumed that he can affect and alter destiny itself. Janos still had to die
for Raziel to assume his role as the new Reaver guardian. If Janos spared himself, it could quite possibly have altered Soul Reaving Raz seeking out Sarafan Raz for revenge over Janos' death. If Sarafan Raz died normally, then the chance of Kain resurrecting him and his brethren would be slim to none.

I don't believe the Seer has the same affect over the course of events within the series. Although I think she plays a more major role than we expect, her true power/purpose is unknown at this point. It could end up that she is the Hylden-equivalent of Janos.

Vampmaster
2nd Sep 2002, 21:27
Raz is the soul reaver, but that doesn't mean he's it's guardian. He still could be, but we don't know yet.

Kagato
3rd Sep 2002, 06:55
I noticed some differences between the Seer and the female figure portrayed in Hylden city. First, the seer has hair. Secondly, the Seer's ears/bone ridges flare upwards like ears while the Hylden figures follows down the back of the skull like a headress.

Of course, there is always a difference between "art" and real appearances, so my observations don't invalidante any theories mentioned so far.

keepittrue
4th Sep 2002, 03:35
Someone please explain the logic of Raziel being the Reaver guardian, I know where the idea came from but it cant be so according to how guardians are chosen.

TempySmurf
4th Sep 2002, 03:47
I haven't thought about that one too much myself true.. a simple explaination might be that he's just the "gaurdian" by default, since the sword and him are entertwined.

Secrets Of Nosgoth
5th Sep 2002, 21:31
Spoilers all over the place here! I won't even bother typing spoilers anymore. Odds are, if you are reading this thread, you beat all 4 LoK games.

Did it say that Raziel was the reaver gaurdian? I'll need to play SR 2 again, I remember Janos saying that he (janos) was the gaurdian and was waiting for Raziel. I don't remember anybody saying Raziel was to gaurd the reaver, but I do remember Raziel saying that he will be consumed by it.

If Janos did say that Raziel was to take over his place as the Reaver gaurdian, then I believe Janos is lying or was given false information. He was forced to wait there until Raziel showed up so Raziel can turn the reaver into what it currently is.

"here gaurd this" one minute later...."ha ha, fooled you, you die."

Umah Bloodomen
5th Sep 2002, 22:15
Originally posted by keepittrue
Someone please explain the logic of Raziel being the Reaver guardian, I know where the idea came from but it cant be so according to how guardians are chosen.

This is still one of those "unknown factors" that haven't been revealed yet. Janos tells Raziel flat out that the Reaver was forged for him and didn't elaborate. Depending on what turn the series chooses to take, meaning the origins of Raz pertaining to the conditions of the Ancient vs. Hylden war and that time period and other outside factors should do the elaborating. It would appear that (in theory) Janos originally assumed the role of the Reaver guardian and is ready to "pass the torch" to the new generation.

This may reveal a bit more into the Ancients and their abilities as a race. Janos strikes me as very precognative (see things before they happen) and therefore plays his cards accordingly. He doesn't necessarily want to outright change what is to come because he has no lust for power like Kain, he isn't driven by revenge and he hasn't assumed the role of the pawn yet. He is relatively peaceful and simply doesn't want to change the events of the future. Does this mean the entire Ancient race was precognative? I am not sure yet...it is possible but I feel that Janos is the only one with this ability (which helps him play the part of the series' "Christ Figure").

I think that it is very possible that Janos saw the events concerning Raziel way back in the day and acted on it accordingly. He chose someone to succeed him later on. The details are sketchy at this point, but I am anxious to find out how/why Raziel was actually chosen to fufill this role.

Now this still doesn't dismiss the fact Janos may not be revealing all the little details of the curse and the reason for why the war was started in the first place. I don't think he is necessarily going to end up "the bad guy" I simply believe that the Ancients screwed something up and don't want to admit fault on account it makes them look bad in the eyes of those who have come to revere them.


Originally posted by Secrets of Nosgoth
Spoilers all over the place here! I won't even bother typing spoilers anymore. Odds are, if you are reading this thread, you beat all 4 LoK games.

There are a lot more new people entering this forum that have not yet completed the entire series. Despite the large number of individuals who have completed the series, I still do not hesitate entering spoiler tags where spoilerish information is revealed. It is out of common courtesy to the new individuals who come here or have yet to come here. It takes two seconds to enter the spoiler tag. Let me guess... you would rather not take the extra time and effort to do that out of courtesy and respect for new people, and ruin whatever information they actually want to find out on their own? :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Secrets of Nosgoth
Did it say that Raziel was the reaver gaurdian? I'll need to play SR 2 again, I remember Janos saying that he (janos) was the gaurdian and was waiting for Raziel. I don't remember anybody saying Raziel was to gaurd the reaver, but I do remember Raziel saying that he will be consumed by it.

Check this:



Original dialogue between Janos Audron and Raziel
For thousands of years, I have waited... alone here, losing faith...
At the time of the Binding, nine guardians were called to serve the Pillars. And I was summoned as the tenth guardian - the keeper of the Reaver, the weapon of our salvation.
Over time, our race died out. Until I alone remained... sustained only by my obligation to you, and by my guardianship of the blade.

(SNIPPED TO RETURN TO THE POINT OF QUESTION)

Raziel:

So it's all true, then - what Kain and Vorador have told me - I really am some kind of unholy vampire messiah...
Janos gently corrects him -

Janos:

Unholy? -no. Messiah... perhaps.

Raziel:

I don't like that word - it smells of martyrdom.

Janos:

Raziel, your role in this world's destiny is more crucial - and more benevolent - than you've allowed yourself to believe.
Your journey will not be easy - dark powers are allied against you.
(Janos pauses, considering Raziel's ragged appearance - )

Janos:

But I think you already know this... you appear to have been cruelly tested.
(Janos turns back toward the interior of the chamber. )

Janos:

The Binding must be secured, Raziel. The Pillars are the lock -
Following him, Raziel completes the thought -

Raziel:

- and the Reaver is the key.

Janos:

Yes.


In retrospect, I believe that Janos flat out told him. Raziel just didn't understand it properly.


Originally posted by Secrets of Nosgoth
If Janos did say that Raziel was to take over his place as the Reaver gaurdian, then I believe Janos is lying or was given false information. He was forced to wait there until Raziel showed up so Raziel can turn the reaver into what it currently is.

"here gaurd this" one minute later...."ha ha, fooled you, you die."

:rolleyes: What motivation does Janos have at this point, to lie to Raziel? I don't see any yet. Although again, I believe he is hiding something, I don't think the security of Nosgoth and the preservation of the Pillars is so easy to cast aside because Janos may have skeletons in his closet. I would love the twist of Janos ending up being the supreme traitor, but he isn't following the same patterns as other traitors and potential traitors (Moebius and Vorador as examples). Everything Janos has said has added up so far. There have been flaws in the other individuals I've mentioned.

I am sure this will all be elaborated on in more depth in SR3.

keepittrue
6th Sep 2002, 03:33
Actually I think that dialogue kinda backs that Raziel is not the guardian of the Reaver. There is more to it than that of course, but I think if he was just passing the torch, he could have done whatever Raziel was supposed to do, there is something else to Raziel than being a Reaver guardian. Raziel was/is chosen to do a task specifically because of his unique nature and bottomline just who he is. Janos is the 10th guardian, he has pull, there is more to Raziel than we know, he could very well be turned/chosen to be the guardian(altho I dont see how according to how guardians are chosen) however there is something about him which Janos cant do or else Raziel would not be needed.

Secrets Of Nosgoth
6th Sep 2002, 20:30
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

There are a lot more new people entering this forum that have not yet completed the entire series. Despite the large number of individuals who have completed the series, I still do not hesitate entering spoiler tags where spoilerish information is revealed. It is out of common courtesy to the new individuals who come here or have yet to come here. It takes two seconds to enter the spoiler tag. Let me guess... you would rather not take the extra time and effort to do that out of courtesy and respect for new people, and ruin whatever information they actually want to find out on their own? :rolleyes:



Check this:




In retrospect, I believe that Janos flat out told him. Raziel just didn't understand it properly.

[/b]

:rolleyes: What motivation does Janos have at this point, to lie to Raziel? I don't see any yet. Although again, I believe he is hiding something, I don't think the security of Nosgoth and the preservation of the Pillars is so easy to cast aside because Janos may have skeletons in his closet. I would love the twist of Janos ending up being the supreme traitor, but he isn't following the same patterns as other traitors and potential traitors (Moebius and Vorador as examples). Everything Janos has said has added up so far. There have been flaws in the other individuals I've mentioned.

I am sure this will all be elaborated on in more depth in SR3. [/B]

There's a spoiler tag? *looks to see* Wow, there is. The button just elluded my vision (which is quite poor so forgive me) I thought it was just some wierd code you had to type in html or something. I just have trouble believing anybody hasn't finished SR2 or BO2 and is reading this thread. If they are, odds are they want something spoiled... I mean, look at the title! If my assumption is wrong, oh well, my appologies.

Maybe he doesn't have a reason to lie (feeling hate from the rolling eyes), which is why I put in the other option, Janos was misled on purpose in his beliefs. But, that is a stupid theory. I just don't believe Raziel is a gaurdian of the reaver. I just simply believe that Raziel is the Soul Reaver, and Janos was there gaurding the Reaver that already was enslaving Raziel. It's like having to gaurd yourself. If that's the case, isn't everybody their own gaurdian so-to-speak?

( :) )

Death to the rolling eye smiley.....

warpsavant
6th Feb 2003, 00:02
Some people can not use spoiler tags, they get

"SpoilerText is undefined" errors.

Umah Bloodomen
6th Feb 2003, 02:27
Originally posted by warpsavant
Some people can not use spoiler tags, they get

"SpoilerText is undefined" errors.

Are those people using them correctly? I don't use the button, but type them in manually. Never had a problem, myself. ;)

Plink
7th Feb 2003, 05:34
You know, the whole Janos has been misled theory is very interesting indeed...Perhaps that was the case....*thinks*

Angel of Music
10th Feb 2003, 16:27
Originally posted by Plink
You're reading the post of a person who rings her own phone number just to see what happens...


What morbid, peurile curiosity! Do you also try to figure out what happens to the light when you close the fridge?

And now you are reading the post of someone who thinks he is Fozzie the Bear. WOKKA WOKKA WOKKA

Plink
11th Feb 2003, 05:26
Actually no. I don't. I set up little traps for the little man that turns the light on and off so I can feed him to my cat :D

How's Kermit? :D

Camus Audron
10th Sep 2003, 18:41
I think your theories about the seer are very interesting Umah, I havent played BO2 yet, but I have spoiled myself in many factors of it simply because almost everyone titles it as lok unworthy.

we have seen Hylden, and most of em, seem to have pseudo wings attached to them at their back, the depictions in SR2 show those appendages as deform and fleshy,so much that they even reasemble those of the Zephonims (http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/archive/zephonim.php) (I wonder if there's any reason for Raziel/ims to reasemble Ancients, and Zephon/ims to reasemble Hylden)

The only BO2 mural I've seen depicts a Hylden with apparently the same zephonim looking appendages.and as I havent played the game I dont know what the Hylden warriors or/and the Seer look like, but I asume seer only differs in having hair and batlike ears(like 've read somewhere here) while the warrior hylden must reasemble the Sapharan lord.

so far I do not see butterfly wings on the hylden at all (like Seer's) so up until now no reason to belive Umah

Though If you look back at the promotional wallpapers that came out for SR2, there are two of them related to the pillars
Wallpaper 1 (http://www.nosgoth2.net/sr2/wallpaper/sr2wallp5_1024.jpg) - Wallpaper2 (http://www.nosgoth2.net/sr2/wallpaper/sr2wallp2_1024.jpg) the first one depicts raziel in a chamber with crushed pillars that have elemental symbols on them, while looking into a time warp gate that shows the traditional pillars still standing

second wallpaper shows him standing on one of the broken pillars with the elemental symbols on them again

Both of these, but specially the first one implied the vampiric link to the pillars and their relation to the Reaver, by linking it's elemental powers to the pillars, and also showing that original Reaver nature of the pillars crumbled, by the dominance imposed by the humans on the pillars.

My point? these wallpapers implied the Main idea SR2 sent out, before the game was released, so maybe the same goes on with Defiance, I suggest we look at the Defiance wallpapers, for hints on it's main concept.

wallpaper1 (http://www.legacyofkain.com/downloads/lok_wallpaper01_1280.jpg) - Wallpaper2 (http://www.legacyofkain.com/downloads/lok_wallpaper02_1024.jpg) First wa`llpaper shows Kain and Raziel, involved in a great fight against Safaran and what looks like vampires.

second just shows the two of em slashing with their soulreavers, and a hand raising on a corner (probably the "vampires" of the last wallpaper.

it doesnt seem to show much, but if you pay attention, every one of their enemies but one(he must be significant somehow) has green glowing eyes, just like safaran lord...

Here is when I come back to the hylden/seer link, if you look at the image of Janos with green eyes, his wings have changed, they even seem like a hybrid of feathered wings and (conceptart) Seer wings, now having scales and being orange.This is what makes me belive the hylden and Seer connection, as green glowing eyes was characteristic of safaran lord, a very strong hylden figure.

Seer's future foreseeing abilities are confusing, we had only seen something similar in moebius, the time guardian. But if you think about it, Moebiuses foreseeing power was never shown strictly as a timestreamer skill, maybe he didnt have that skill, he just manipulated the chronoplast, and as we do not know that edifice's origins yet, and the Seer seems to relate to foreseeing time, just like the chronoplast we could say the Time streaming chambers are of Hylden origins.meaning they were stolen by the Ancients and the Humans after them