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Oghamsmith
1st Feb 2016, 16:42
http://cdn.sqexeu.com/files/nosgoth/misc/com/forum/BETA5Social.jpg

Taking the best of League season testing to date and wrapping it up into one solid package, you won’t want to miss League beta 5.0!

What is a League Beta?
Want to see how your Nosgoth skills compare to the rest of the world? Like winning profile borders, keys, skins and maybe even cash prizes? Then Nosgoth Leagues are for you! Here, your skills will be put to the test as you face some of the stiffest competition to be found across the world of Nosgoth. Compare your prowess to the rest in the world via global rankings, or maybe just focus on beating your friends. That one friend who insists he could 1v1 you but never takes you up on your challenge? With Leagues, you can get a good idea of whether or not he’s blowing hot air.

During the League Beta, we are trialing different League configurations, to see which work the best, and which you guys like the most; before moving into the fully live Nosgoth Leagues Season 1 (as opposed to Nosgoth Leagues Beta).


League Beta 5.0:
Picking the best parts of Leagues Beta seasons to date, 5.0 pulls everything together into a pretty strong package. This season will utilise the following format:


24/7 League – There are no limitations to League play times, compete whenever you want!
4v4 – While 5v5 TDM was very warmly received, 4v4 is where the heart of competitive Nosgoth lays.
Max Party Size 2 – Grab a friend and jump onto the battlefield
1 Month Duration – Season 5.0 will last for approximately 1 month - Starting on February 1st and running until the 29th of February (inclusive)
Age – Not for little Humans: As Nosgoth is a mature game, participants must of course be at least 18 years of age to play and compete.
Terms and Conditions - You can check out the Terms & Conditions HERE (http://nosgoth.com/leagues/terms), you must agree to these terms in-game in order to be eligible for prizing.


The Spoils of War
Featuring a new $10,000 prize pool for the season, League Beta 5.0 retains the same prize structure as years gone by. Whether you want to climb to the mightiest heights of the Eternal tier, or simply fight through the Leagues while having a good time with friends, we've got you covered. Cash prizing will be distributed in the following fashion:




This season’s Blood tier prize is an exclusive weapon for the forthcoming Beastmaster class. Going by the name "Hunter's Gold", most successful Beastmasters melt down the armour of vanquished enemies and use it to gild their weapons, showing off their prowess to others.





Join the fight today!
Signing up to the League is as simple as loading up Nosgoth, getting to at least level 10; and agreeing to the League Terms and Conditions (if you haven’t done so during previous League Beta seasons). With that done, you’ll want to jump into League matches to start racking up those points and climbing the leaderboard.

FAQ
How will monetary prizes be delivered?

PayPal will be the primary method, although those who cannot use PayPal will be able to provide us with your bank account details.

We’re working in conjunction with the fine folks over at ESL to get the monetary prizes to the top 100 players. You’ll receive an email from Square Enix once the season is over with further steps to take.

When will I receive my prize?
All in-game prizing is typically delivered approximately a week after the season ends.

Cash prizes take approximately one and a half months to deliver. This is to provide ESL with enough time to contact you for the account details into which your winnings will be sent, and the processing of the payments to take place.

Where is Sonic Boom, my League Beat 4.0 prize?
Sonic Boom will be released alongside Nosgoth's next game update :)!

toothman666
1st Feb 2016, 17:29
Weapon skin looks nice and the Beastmaster even better :) Will it be on the stock weapon?

On a side note, this league will run till 2nd or 3rd of March right?

senjuj
1st Feb 2016, 17:32
add option to remove league banners from inventory!!

Oghamsmith
1st Feb 2016, 17:50
Weapon skin looks nice and the Beastmaster even better :) Will it be on the stock weapon?

On a side note, this league will run till 2nd or 3rd of March right?

Hi there! Glad you like the first glimpse that you get of the Beastmaster. No, the regular version of that weapon is not the Beastmaster's stock shotgun, so it's a doubly nice little bonus :). I should note that the skin being used in the image for the Beastmaster himself is not his default skin. His default skin is very much like the concept art that we recently showed in the end of Jan State of Play.

The Season runs through until the 29th of Feb :).


add option to remove league banners from inventory!!

How many do you have?

GenFeelGood
1st Feb 2016, 17:51
So does this mean we will be playing the new class before the end of the month?

Oghamsmith
1st Feb 2016, 17:56
So does this mean we will be playing the new class before the end of the month?

That would be the logical conclusion to draw from that. Now; the question must be asked...are we that logical? :p

GenFeelGood
1st Feb 2016, 18:05
FANTASTIC!, This year just keeps getting better and better.

On a side note, are you open to hearing suggestions for alternative names to Beastmaster?

LaPineda
1st Feb 2016, 18:16
When the "blood" prizes 4.0 will be delivered?

Vampmaster
1st Feb 2016, 18:20
If the gold weapon is the only prize, can you please include a PFX to go with it? And add said effect to the other gold weapons we got in the founder's packs. The gold weapons seem REALLY dull otherwise. They, along with many other rare weapons currently can't even have stat upgrades in the forge. Make it have gold sparks coming off or something.

Oghamsmith
1st Feb 2016, 18:37
FANTASTIC!, This year just keeps getting better and better.

On a side note, are you open to hearing suggestions for alternative names to Beastmaster?

Always pleased to make you happy! With that said, we're sticking with Beastmaster as the name for this class.


When the "blood" prizes 4.0 will be delivered?

With the next game update :).


If the gold weapon is the only prize, can you please include a PFX to go with it? And add said effect to the other gold weapons we got in the founder's packs. The gold weapons seem REALLY dull otherwise. They, along with many other rare weapons currently can't even have stat upgrades in the forge. Make it have gold sparks coming off or something.

Interesting, I think the gold weapons look fairly good. I'm playing on maxed out settings. Perhaps that has something to do with it, are you playing on lower settings?

Vampmaster
1st Feb 2016, 19:19
Interesting, I think the gold weapons look fairly good. I'm playing on maxed out settings. Perhaps that has something to do with it, are you playing on lower settings?

Mid-settings, I think. I mean they look ok when you're stood still and nothing's happening, but you don't normally notice them unless you're actively looking for them and definitely not other people's when there's lots going on in battle. Also, people don't really use the gold weapons because they can't put stats on them. When I said 'dull', I also meant unexciting relative to previous prizes as well as not showing up.

What was the rare effect that was made for the league version of Sonic Boom? I assume a new one was made especially for that or did you mean a random one of the already existing effects? If it's a brand new one, perhaps that could be added to the gold weapons? Or maybe you could just let us upgrade the gold weapons to mysterious once the the forge is capable of that ;).

Also, do you know when the 5v5 banners will be ready?

Da_Wolv
1st Feb 2016, 19:28
Oh yey.. another banner I can't delete -.-

Also, yey... ranked..

I guess we#re doing this again..

TheDreamcrusher
1st Feb 2016, 19:46
Is the intent of this league just to be filler while simultaneously testing the beastmaster?

Gugulug5000
1st Feb 2016, 19:48
I clicked on this thread, took a look at that Beastmaster skin and though "Holy cow we're getting a pretty cool skin this time around!" I was quite disappointed to later realize that the skin was not the prize, the golden shotgun was. Time to start grinding to blood league again... (seems a bit soon to me, a little more time between leagues may help prevent players from getting burned out with Nosgoth)

Kind of disappointed to hear that the team isn't open to suggestions to change the name of the Beastmaster. I just sounds kind of tacky. I'm still hoping that he has other abilities to indicate that he is actual a master of beasts (turning into a bird doesn't quite cut it). Can't wait for his release.

GenFeelGood
1st Feb 2016, 20:36
I'm still hoping that he has other abilities to indicate that he is actual a master of beasts (turning into a bird doesn't quite cut it). Can't wait for his release.

I'm kind of excited at the possibility of flying in both rounds; but I'm also hoping that he also turns into something you'd consider beastly (maybe a bear or wolf). He surely has an alternative and I can't wait to learn what it is.

SonixSquad
1st Feb 2016, 23:14
I'm kind of excited at the possibility of flying in both rounds; but I'm also hoping that he also turns into something you'd consider beastly (maybe a bear or wolf). He surely has an alternative and I can't wait to learn what it is.

Possibly as a future ability addition? Who knows. However my understanding of BeastMaster is someone who can handle beasts, a tamer & keeper of sorts. It doesn't have to mean someone who can turn into beasts although that sounds fun.

New map is awesome, nice to have some fresh killing grounds and being a player who loves the Prophet, can't wait to get into some close quarters BLAM in your face action!! :D

Perhaps consider updating the Ranked banners with finalised league placements and colours?
Other than that keep up the good work! :)

FischioTigre
2nd Feb 2016, 09:38
I have something like 6 league banners, 1 each league :o ... is there the possibility to change a little every league banner, for example adding the number of the league series?

Vampmaster
2nd Feb 2016, 10:16
The banner slightly resembles the a variation of wheel of fate symbol that shows up in the main LOK series. What if it slowly morphs into that with each series. As if it's gradually being taken over by the Elder God? It also resembles the warp gates from the Vampire Citadel in Defiance (the red spiral dots that you have to light up) and Kain's jump symbol from BO2. I don't know if anything can be done with that.

Farnbeak
2nd Feb 2016, 12:57
Hey everyone, I'd like to share my feedback about leagues at last. Just to kindle a bit of discussion ;)
Most of the ideas are almost the same as when I came up with my initial feedback on the first league tests back in summer. I have let them mature through the test of time (half a year+ is more than enough) before posting, so here's another Wall-of-Text of mine!

1) Misguidance of the Leagues "mode".

A. The essence of the mode. In my opinion, the biggest problem with the leagues, the root of all ongoing frustrations lies in the lack of essence of this mode and the wrong expectations set.
What do we know about it, whats the idea behind it?
Officially "Our League feature is a season-based ranking system" [Dev post].
Basically its a copy/pasted shard of TDM basic mode we always had, but 'for more competitive players'. The novelty here is the ladder ranking system and a few technical tweaks, like not letting any replacements for leavers.
Its NOT a new game mode. It does not feature any new rules or any new game structures except this ranking+score value you have. Ok, so what about the 'competitive players' orientation?
- Not being put in an ongoing game and this nontransparently calculated non-zero-sum score value (you can actually get points when you lose!). That 'for more competetive players' statement works exactly the same way as when you make some puzzle game on IOS/Android and later add a leaderboard to it. Beware, its for more competitive players now, your average casual player might not handle it now, you know. Except the leaderboard is sorted not by puzzle completion time, but by time spent in game! :thumb:

B. The Money.
There's also a big sack of money thrown out each leagues season, but it works the same crude way as if you throw it out in a public place - it will breed some sort of competetiveness, sure, quite a few will have their noses broken for a few banknotes. But what will people have with them in the end? Each one having spent significant time participating in an unequal nontransparent and not entertaining in itself metacompetition, chosen few will get compensated with money and most will end up despondent and frustrated.
What adds up to the frustration is that the major feedback on that issue is explicitly ignored. What I've said above is not new, even the top skilled players capable of breaking quite a few noses - the direct beneficiaries here - have shared their critisism and concerns and so had enough responsibility to effectively vote against money raining on their heads. (Kudos to you, people!)

C. Nosgoth game systems reinforcement ?
Another facet here is that the chosen reward/distribution system doesn't reinforce any game systems meaningfuly and does not appear to be thoughtout enough. Apart from some of the specific limitations (timerestricted and competetive) its incredibly inferior to XP system that feeds directly from scoreboard (a + for all those people who want their personal performance to count), is transparent, is tied nicely with monetisation with XP and MI drop boosters and converts itself into a good progression and 'bragging rights' system (btw why not remove the max level cap?).
On the other hand the League system complements the core game systems as elegantly as explosives complement fishbait. I beg pardon for my screaming analogy, but I just cannot see how it is the best way to handle 'solo competetiveness' or 'casual competetiveness' or even 'marketing' (any other points I'm missing?). I'm okay with it being inferior at some iteration, but we haven't seen any changes to the system except that hidden bonus points pool distributions for that whole half a year+ (party size is an input factor, not a part of the system itself in that regard). I have the feeling that this exact system IS perceived as 'likely best' and 'to-stay' by developers and so my critisism holds ground.


2) I believe Leagues should not be a separate game mode!

Everything the League does now can be done through one 'Team Deathmatch' button. There is little justification for splitting the playerbase in 2 parts with such a superficial 'Mode'.
Matchmaking due to low playerbase has always been Nosgoth's biggest problem, you need really strong reasons if you are to exacerbate it.
[Separate ranked mode is all welcome when the playerbase is plentiful]


Just a few specific examples on how ranking/leaderboard can be added without a separate Mode:

- Seasonal ranking – just a 'League' button near 'Home' or 'Armory' button on top. All the data is fetched from 'TDM' game mode. By default it would work exactly the same as it did in season 4.0 – party up with up to 4 people as you've always done in TDM.

- Lobbies/nododging – at least 3 ways to do it:
1) Hide lobbies as we have it now in Leagues (worst option – lobbydodging and no bannershow)
2) Hide lobbies + Remove the 10 second countdown (no banners but we dont even need the launcher to fight lobbydodging)
3) Apply leaver penalty to League score when abandoning lobby (only league score, not timeout penalty). Best option! No lobbydodging, no desktop launcher needed, banners and lobbychat functional. Also nonleague casual TDM players can still leave 'tryhard premade' lobbies they dont like suffering the penalty they dont care much about (instead of leaving at start of game as they would do with hidden lobbies).

- Party limit by developers. It is implementable if needed and in a better sense imo.
Say, its party limit of 2. It would work as it did with duo leagues before, except now you could queue with 4-party in a separate queue with a prompt warning that your league stats would not get updated (if Psyonix chose so as a rule for the season) and 'wait time could be significantly longer'. The difference here is that your 4-party would not be straight out forbidden to queue and that you would not be matched with compositions of solo and duo players then (and thats good for everyone). Thats like a soft baby-version of what SonixSquad had offered numerious times :wave:


3) Now that I'm done with the stronger points central to league discussion, I would also like to throw a few 'subjective' ones.

With the needlessness of a separate League mode argued above I want to add my thoughts on the prize structure.

There are two factors the devs want to reward judging by the league concept as we have it now – 'activity' and 'competitiveness'(skill). I strongly believe that those are not the same in their nature and that they should be treated differently.
Activity is better rewarded with nonmaterial rewards that have some status to them and can be shown off like skins, rare or even limited edition items etc. Competetiveness on the other hand corresponds extremely well to material rewards (you have to get RL value to substitute that RL value you miss not going out on that Sunday when you decide to take part in an ESL tournament). Rewarding activity with $ is in essence turning a game into a job and kills the passion/addiction in the end. Rewarding competetiveness with exclusive symbols breeds frustrations among the high activity devoted playerbase who can't jump above their skill/abilities level. Making them nonexclusive and purchasable, in turn, devalues them.
In short, reward high activity with status, symbols and ingame stuff, reward high skill with cash prizes.

Also I really think that regarding the $ prizes transparency and controlled environment are REALLY important. ESL brackets and game results are transparent and Wire adds some control.
Ingame rankings and scores are a good tool to give out ingame stuff, ESL is the proper tool to give out the cash.

If Psyonix wants more people to reach the cash prizes then work should be done to motivate and smoothen the transition to ESL, but not moving the cash down where it can be reached through ingame manipulation and such. A nice short 'how-to' guide with direct links on the 'ESL' ad we have ingame and also available on nosgoth.com would be really helpful!
Small symbolical prizes for simply taking part (not necessarily runestones but even gold or enchantable items) for lower tier casual tournaments would help the registration and entry of new people.

Also I still hate the region merging :) Personally I am ready to wait any extra period of time to play an EU match instead of a NAm match. Or even not to play and make a break if there are none. Why let us choose region for 'casual' TDM games and derive us that in 'competetive' Ranked ones (where ping and performance is more important)? I wish to have the choice.

Equanimityjohn
2nd Feb 2016, 17:45
All fantastic points Farnbeak. Really hit the nail on the head. The only other critique of leagues I can think of is the matchmaking. It puts players who are level 15 with 10 hours experience who are bronze 5 against players who are level 50 with 2000 hours in eternal (who usually exclusively group with similarly experienced players). This is so incredibly far from balanced and far from competitive it is laughable. It feels like a chore to play ranked because of all of these discrepancies long expressed by many players. It's easy to get to eternal if you have enough time to spare for it, but any responsible person has a full time job and other priorities. It's a chore enough to get to blood. It is no testament to skill in order to reach these ranks. Literally just a matter of time. This is not the case for games with well established ranked like league of legends. I can hit platinum in LoL very easily using my very limited down time and that game's matchmaking is actually competitive. It makes no sense as it stands now to even call leagues in Nosgoth competitive.

Farnbeak
3rd Feb 2016, 08:12
Thank you, Equanimityjohn :)

Everything you said above is true for me as well.
I did not count matchmaking as a part of Leagues system for my analysis, but its a matter of perspective. Matchmaking is what affects the results of matches regardless of mode and so its a major 'input factor' for the Leagues. Fixing it is very desirable but doesnt fix the flawed League design and vice versa. In the end both are necessary.

Matchmaking is definitely flawed somewhat beyond the 'low player count' reason.
Its systematic like a random pub lobby yesterday (no 3-4 premades on any of the sides) having exactly 3 top MMR players end up shuffled in one team where all of the other players had open profiles with 50-150 hours. 36-5 result.
The day before yesterday I duo-queued in TDM at late-day normal playercount time. It was a 31-0 match, where no one on the other vamp team could be blamed for specifically feeding or going nonstop solo, no leavers either. Tbh its rare to have those 'flawless' matches but they still happen.
But I really feel repetative telling those stories, forum is full of those as is every Nosgoth player's memory :scratch:

The sytematic flaw notion also comes from the confidence (aquired with time) that my human meatbrain works better at predicting match results than Nosgoth's MM algorithm. I may reassess that very soon for unknown player lobbies, since the introduction of Nosg.launcher has made 'hours played' stat in profiles largely irrelevant.

SonixSquad
3rd Feb 2016, 12:40
Thank you for taking the time to think about & write that up Farnbeak.
I pretty much agree with everything you have stated.
I actually never thought about the Normal TDM and Ranked Leagues being a split but you are right. That in itself is already an unnecessary split when all we need is a League stats tab as you have stated.

I would add to this some sort of display indicating how many duos and quad premades teams were currently queued as an indication of current activity and viability of getting a 4 man v 4 man premade match.

Ysanoire
3rd Feb 2016, 16:43
B. The Money.
- yeah, almost everyone agrees on this


2) I believe Leagues should not be a separate game mode!


Disagree. Every game I play has separate ranked and unranked mode. It's because people want to decide when they play for points and when they don't. You want ranked modes to be different so you can enforce "responsibility" for the matches (leaver penalties, no hotjoining etc), but you always want to have a mode where results don't matter. Soon you'll also want to have a place to do challenges in.

Vampmaster
3rd Feb 2016, 17:09
- yeah, almost everyone agrees on this



Disagree. Every game I play has separate ranked and unranked mode. It's because people want to decide when they play for points and when they don't. You want ranked modes to be different so you can enforce "responsibility" for the matches (leaver penalties, no hotjoining etc), but you always want to have a mode where results don't matter. Soon you'll also want to have a place to do challenges in.

I agree they should stay separate. It would put off a lot of players if they were expected to play at the same level of skill as those who do so for a living. It takes an awful lot of time to reach that level of skill and regular TDM would be needed to practice far beyond the new recruit level. I maxed out my player level a year ago and still don't stand a chance in eternal. I'm stuck playing my best classes (Alchemist and Deceiver) just to keep up in league and I know I'm not the only one. I normally stop once I reach Blood for the in-game prize and go back to TDM to use the other classes an play with my friends.

HexMee
3rd Feb 2016, 20:41
Could one of the devs PLEASE for the love of god sit down at the office and spend 3 minutes of your precious time removing the 10 second countdown before match starts in leagues!?

I'M SICK OF NOT GETTING A GAME FOR HOURS ON END BECAUSE PEOPLE LEAVE DURING THE COUNTDOWN BECAUSE THEY SPOT MY NAME IN THE LOBBY THROUGH STEAM OVERLAY!

You've had 5 months to fix this issue and hundreds of people telling you that it's broken and you haven't bothered when you could fix the problem by changing ONE DAMN VARIABLE in your code!

kLauE187
4th Feb 2016, 04:41
Could one of the devs PLEASE for the love of god sit down at the office and spend 3 minutes of your precious time removing the 10 second countdown before match starts in leagues!?

I'M SICK OF NOT GETTING A GAME FOR HOURS ON END BECAUSE PEOPLE LEAVE DURING THE COUNTDOWN BECAUSE THEY SPOT MY NAME IN THE LOBBY THROUGH STEAM OVERLAY!

You've had 5 months to fix this issue and hundreds of people telling you that it's broken and you haven't bothered when you could fix the problem by changing ONE DAMN VARIABLE in your code!

this

also all other bugs but too lazy to repeat myself 10 times when they wont get fixed anyways.

Da_Wolv
4th Feb 2016, 09:18
I like most of what Farnbeak said:



B. The Money.
There's also a big sack of money thrown out each leagues season, but it works the same crude way as if you throw it out in a public place - it will breed some sort of competetiveness, sure, quite a few will have their noses broken for a few banknotes. But what will people have with them in the end? Each one having spent significant time participating in an unequal nontransparent and not entertaining in itself metacompetition, chosen few will get compensated with money and most will end up despondent and frustrated.
What adds up to the frustration is that the major feedback on that issue is explicitly ignored. What I've said above is not new, even the top skilled players capable of breaking quite a few noses - the direct beneficiaries here - have shared their critisism and concerns and so had enough responsibility to effectively vote against money raining on their heads. (Kudos to you, people!)

I, and many fellow ESL players have, over the last year or so, unanimously pleaded against money in leagues. Why would you not put higher prize pools in ESL, smaller monetary rewards for lower tier teams and much larger prizes fo top teams. Currently, you get Runestones in ESL, and money in Leagues... the exact opposite should be the case.

I don't mind you putting small amounts of cash in Leagues, but if it were 50 for Top 10, 30 for top 50 and 20 for Top 100, noone would care much! 1k on the other hand... :mad2:
All it does is breed flamers.

You either get flamed to death or you live long enough to see yourself become the flamer
Why is it that people that have less that 25hrs recorded on Steam join into Leagues? I wouldn't have a problem with it, if they would stay within their Rankings. If I start out the League a week late and get placed in Silver, why do I have New Recruit Bronze idiots on my team and get to fight Blood and Eternal players?
The Ranking system is solely based on the binary win/lose rewards. Either you win 14 or you lose 1 - that way almost noone gets the placement they really deserve.



2) I believe Leagues should not be a separate game mode!

This I sort of disagree with, then again, I wouldn't mind you removing Leagues alltogether.



I'M SICK OF NOT GETTING A GAME FOR HOURS ON END BECAUSE PEOPLE LEAVE DURING THE COUNTDOWN BECAUSE THEY SPOT MY NAME IN THE LOBBY THROUGH STEAM OVERLAY!

You've had 5 months to fix this issue and hundreds of people telling you that it's broken and you haven't bothered when you could fix the problem by changing ONE DAMN VARIABLE in your code!

Yup! This is a Beta, so we are testing things... the same things... over and over again.
Apart from Party Size, what changes were made since the original League back in early 2015?
It all seems very futile to me.


Frankly, I am getting sick of complaining about it - we all get worked up over it, nothing is being done, 6 weeks later it starts all over again. Exhausting.

Farnbeak
4th Feb 2016, 13:21
Every game I play has separate ranked and unranked mode. It's because people want to decide when they play for points and when they don't. You want ranked modes to be different so you can enforce "responsibility" for the matches (leaver penalties, no hotjoining etc), but you always want to have a mode where results don't matter. Soon you'll also want to have a place to do challenges in.

Not every game I play now or have played in somewhat recent past has a separate Ranked mode. This includes 100% pure online competetive titles. Not that its a valid argument/counterargument by itself anyway.

I agree with your explanation of the benefits of a separate ranked mode.
But below that statement you quoted there are a couple of additional sentences to give extra context. I believe that introducing a separate ranked mode is a complex decision and so there is solid comparative analysis (between all alternatives) to be made at current game state.
One example (no depth here for the sake of speed):
1) Ranked as a ranking table to complement existing game mode(s)
VS
2) Ranked as a separate game mode with ranking

To simplify comparison lets just take all the background and values as we have them now:
League Points distribution nonzero-sum, strongly favours Quantity of games played
Leaver penalty is minimal (more in remarks below)
Matchmaking Rating (MMR) value for players is universal across the modes

Comparing 1 over 2:

Pros: Double the playerbase, so
- Better Matchmaking -> Fairer Competition, more substance to the win/loss -> Higher Score relevance
- Shorter Queue/wait times
Cons: only one set of rules possible
- Hotjoin on/off (I imagine its no Hotjoin then)
- Time-penalties for leavers universal

Now whats the magnitude of those factors? Those cons have significance, sure.
But for scarcely populated Nosgoth 'Matchmaking' and 'Queue time' improvement is HUGE if you double the population in a mode. And those 2 factors are like the essense and the face of a competetive game, respectively.

Separating ranked and nonranked is an option for games with bountiful playerbase such as Dota/LoL/CS:GO/Hearthstone and even much less populated titles like R6S where only the number of preorders is enough to guarantee an adequte Matchmaking and Queue times are easily measured in seconds. Playercount no longer has a significant impact in those games and they can afford weighing that decision in favour of 'Split'.
What makes up the essence of ranked mode in those games is its close to or zero-sum (win=~loss points), and so the Rank it generates is meaningful and is used for separate Matchmaking in that mode! Your rank is effectively your MMR for that mode. Another + is that leaver penalties are unevadable and harsher/progressive - a reason to separate it to a 'noncasual' mode.

Remarks:
- Mode where results don't matter?
a) Why would you want such a mode if the results are 90% positively skewed? Do you want a mode with no XP accumulation for instance? Such Nonranked modes make sense in the majority of the other games, where you can lose the same ranked point value as you win. In Nosgoth you can lose and lose and lose in a row and win just one accidental easy game to be in overall +.
b) If we had only one TDM with rankings and the majority of players there, I'm absolutely sure we would have at least one other game mode open for us for goofiness purposes :gamer:. Even now we have that 5v5 available. And before league implementations we had those FP and CPB modes.

- Leaver penalty is not only minimal, but as it is now it can be evaded completely. Lobbydodging + it can be evaded if match actually starts. And then if you are slow and leave later you suffer only timeout penalty, no points penalty (I have actualy just tested it for the sake of this comment - got same points and even better ranking! Was 30th to become 28th in my division, nice!) I still believe this is not intended and will be remedied in the future, hence moved this point to remarks.


I agree they should stay separate. It would put off a lot of players if they were expected to play at the same level of skill as those who do so for a living. It takes an awful lot of time to reach that level of skill and regular TDM would be needed to practice far beyond the new recruit level. I maxed out my player level a year ago and still don't stand a chance in eternal. I'm stuck playing my best classes (Alchemist and Deceiver) just to keep up in league and I know I'm not the only one. I normally stop once I reach Blood for the in-game prize and go back to TDM to use the other classes an play with my friends.

Whaaaa...whaat? :nut: I mean you share your experience with the current system that feels more like 'frustration' and vote for status quo - "they should stay separate"? I don't quite understand...
"It would put off a lot of players if they were expected to play at the same level of skill as those who do so for a living" - aren't you describing the existing league with your personal examples there?

You said you have been playing this game game for at least a year - then you remember it before the Leagues. Was there such an 'expectation'? I don't think so. My proposition is based on that 'The One TDM' we always had back then in preLeague period, so I really do not understand how you link that 'expectation' to my idea. I even used that IOS puzzle game with leaderboard analogy there...
If its the $ and prize structure that breeds that expectation - then you may have skipped B. The Money and the reward structure section in the end of my comment.

Vampmaster
4th Feb 2016, 14:02
@Farnbeak, it sounded to me like you were suggesting that the normal TDM should be removed and league be the main mode, which I would hate. If that's not what you meant, then I misunderstood and I apologise.

If it was up to me, I'd rather just grind for cool skins and weapons using the upcoming challenge/reward system and leave professional gamers to compete over the cash prizes separately, although I don't expect many people to go for that set up. It would require some sort of league mode, although much more like ESL than the current incarnation of league.

Ysanoire
4th Feb 2016, 17:31
But for scarcely populated Nosgoth 'Matchmaking' and 'Queue time' improvement is HUGE if you double the population in a mode. And those 2 factors are like the essense and the face of a competetive game, respectively.

Separating ranked and nonranked is an option for games with bountiful playerbase such as Dota/LoL/CS:GO/Hearthstone and even much less populated titles like R6S where only the number of preorders is enough to guarantee an adequte Matchmaking and Queue times are easily measured in seconds.

Then maybe Nosgoth (in particular its playerbase size) isn't ready for ranked mode yet. I just know that personally I don't want to fight for score all the time, especially when there are rewards involved (but we already all agree on the money). I do see your point tho.

TheDreamcrusher
4th Feb 2016, 18:03
A short summary of my thoughts after reading (and playing) so far:

1. I'd love to get runestones instead of keys as ranked rewards. Don't care about cash with the current implementation of ranking.

2. The current implementation of earning rank in Leagues is garbage and always has been. Grind games for rank? Why is there rank for time put in?

3. New players need a restriction for competing in Leagues. I figure almost everyone will disagree with this, but it needs to happen. Level 30 or higher should be adequate. Another alternative would be to have 2 leagues; for new players and veterans. New player league would have much less substantial rewards and you enter into it by being under level 30. You continue in the new player league until a league season begins when you are over level 30.

4. Matchmaking, man... What else is there to say? However, having grouped people in the leagues definitely hamstrings what matchmaking exists.

Nickname98
5th Feb 2016, 02:57
For the league banners you could possibly just change the color of the design instead of gold every season do purple for one then blue for the next one etc. Would be a easy change to the league banners since i have played every league which means i have like 6 duplicate league banners i believe.

Farnbeak
5th Feb 2016, 06:40
@DaWolv, @YsaNoire, @Vampmaster,

Thanks for your replies, guys.
I have added extra yellow clarification in the first post to make it clear that I have nothing against Ranked as a separate mode by concept (I actually love it in other games), its just the Nosgoth implementation and the cost we pay here for a very meager benefit.

I have also expanded the second comment with a very important point on Ranked mode difference in other successful games.
They all use meaningful ranking systems and base their Matchmaking in that mode on Ranks!
AFAIK Nosgoth still uses your MMR which is the same for both modes. This is where my concern of current Ranked having little justification for being separate stems from.

Da_Wolv
5th Feb 2016, 09:28
- Hotjoin on/off (I imagine its no Hotjoin then)
Hotjoin can be made to work! See below.



What makes up the essence of ranked mode in those games is its close to or zero-sum (win=~loss points), and so the Rank it generates is meaningful and is used for separate Matchmaking in that mode! Your rank is effectively your MMR for that mode. Another + is that leaver penalties are unevadable and harsher/progressive - a reason to separate it to a 'noncasual' mode.

See below.


Then maybe Nosgoth (in particular its playerbase size) isn't ready for ranked mode yet. I just know that personally I don't want to fight for score all the time, especially when there are rewards involved (but we already all agree on the money). I do see your point tho.



1. I'd love to get runestones instead of keys as ranked rewards. Don't care about cash with the current implementation of ranking.
Yes



2. The current implementation of earning rank in Leagues is garbage and always has been. Grind games for rank? Why is there rank for time put in?
See below.



3. New players need a restriction for competing in Leagues. I figure almost everyone will disagree with this, but it needs to happen. Level 30 or higher should be adequate. Another alternative would be to have 2 leagues; for new players and veterans. New player league would have much less substantial rewards and you enter into it by being under level 30. You continue in the new player league until a league season begins when you are over level 30.

Disagree.

All they have to do is confine people to their ranks! If you are bronze, you play with other bronze and silver players to move up! If you are Silver, you play with bronze and gold players. If you are Eternal, you play with other Eternals and max. Blood II.
If the matchmaking has too little players to make it work, then it can mix, but REWARD PLAYERS ACCORDINGLY:
I.e.: If you are Silver and lose to Eternals 31:0 -> -1/0 points,
if you are Silver and lose against Eternals 43:41 -> +5-8 points
If you are Eternal and you lose against Bronze and Gold players -> -4-9 points.

THE VALUES NEED TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT YOUR RANK (NOT MMR!!!) AND ENEMY RANK AS WELL AS PERSONAL PERFORMANCE

Hotjoin can also be enabled under this system, by evaluating the game (as of the second a new player joins) and skewes the negative rewards accordingly. You could say, if a hotjoin is already lost, you still gain 1-2 points - since there was nothing you can do - if however you manage to turn it around and (almost) win, you will be rewarded like a normal win (since you also saved some time, presumably -> same points, less time played)
For this to work, however, there should be a pause function in the game, where the game stops after 3-5 seconds after a client disconnected and restarts once the slot has been filled, or the team that lost a player votes to continue.

I know this sounds like a lot of work - and it is - but why are we still testing the same League system we did back in September? There should be numerous systems in place (pause, voting, karma/reporting, bug reporting) before the League was even put on the table. The ping system was also one of those things, and look how long that took!
I say focus on those supplementary systems first!.

TheDreamcrusher
7th Feb 2016, 00:12
@Da_Wolv

Sounds great. I hope we get a chance to test something else out and this would be fine by me.

kLauE187
7th Feb 2016, 00:53
THE VALUES NEED TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT YOUR RANK (NOT MMR!!!) AND ENEMY RANK AS WELL AS PERSONAL PERFORMANCE

So all you do then is to stay back as much as possible as human and as vampire you always engage last to get a lot of kills/dmg. What a **** solution.

TheDreamcrusher
7th Feb 2016, 02:16
So all you do then is to stay back as much as possible as human and as vampire you always engage last to get a lot of kills/dmg. What a **** solution.

You misunderstand. He means league rank.

To the devs... For the love of God, do something. I'm on my last nerves with carrying players who Pounce and die alone to a group of 4 humans. I think I've been awfully forgiving playing this game as long as I have but for some reason today, it really hit me how much I don't enjoy this game.

Da_Wolv
7th Feb 2016, 10:56
So all you do then is to stay back as much as possible as human and as vampire you always engage last to get a lot of kills/dmg. What a **** solution.

I didnt say that it is irrelevant if you win or not. The bulk of the points should still be awarded based on the score of the match, incentivising team work. Besides, staying back being greedy for kills is not what gets you good score half the time anyway.
If you are in too late, you risk getting rekt 2+v1

R3dLine237
16th Apr 2016, 21:08
When do we get 5.0 reward money?

Ygdrasel
16th Apr 2016, 23:13
When do we get 5.0 reward money?

Never. They don't have enough money to even keep the game going, much less reward anyone.

Oghamsmith
19th Apr 2016, 10:38
You should have received an email from ESL on Sunday asking for your payment details. ESL should hopefully be sending payment out at the end of the month.