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View Full Version : Ti-i-ime is on my side... (or something like that)



darien_specter
1st Jul 2002, 06:53
Well, to jumpstart some fresh new game discussion, I will present A NEW THEORY. Oooohhh... This one hasn't quite got all the kinks worked out yet, so bear with me. And again, I know that a likely answer is, as always, "that's just the way the game works." Well, phooey. That's no fun.

So here we go: It's this matter of Raziel's time travel, specifically his backwards time travel, and the activation of Reaver fonts. Raziel steps backward almost six hundred years... yet Dark, Light, and Air remain sealed, and all the fonts are working, even though Raziel has not, historically, activated those forges.

The answer, I think, lies in the relativity of events. We have the main flow of history, that we are all slowly reconstructing. Let us call this "relative to Nosgoth." Then, there is the unfolding drama of Raziel's experience. We'll call this "relative to Raziel." This is the frame of reference in which the game is played.

Herein lies, for one thing, the paradoxes. Events relative to history have happened in a certain way, and if Raziel could have found a nice Encyclopedia Nosgothica (:D) in the SR1 era, the farthest forward we've seen, he'd have known how everything would unfold - including that Kain dies at William's tomb and that Raziel "dies" when he is imprisoned in the Reaver. Hence, Kain's explanation that "we have always met here." This is the destiny aspect of history. However, Raziel (and Kain, since he's kind of following him) experiences these events relative to himself. In his history, the past comes after the future, because that's how he's experienced it. So this is the free will aspect: because it hasn't happened for Raziel yet, he can decide to do something else. (I would posit, though, that for him to do something else, he would have to know that event's outcome relative to Nosgoth - info Kain posesses, and occasionally supplies.) And so, if Raziel does something contrary to what history relative to Nosgoth has recorded, that history changes. Howsomever, history relative to Raziel remains unaffected, because his future has not yet occurred - even though the history of Nosgoth has already preordained his entire life!

(To briefly touch on what led me to all of this in the first place, I would hypothesize that, for whatever reason, the Reaver fonts and forges somehow exist relative to Raziel. Thus, if we could unearth one of those buried fonts in SR1, none of them would yet be active - because Raziel has yet to encounter them. They move through history with him, not with the rest of Nosgoth.)

The history-altering paradoxes, then, are bound inextricably with these moments when, knowing the Nosgoth-relative outcome of an event, Raziel changes his decision. To explain: Kain's history should have ended in William's chapel. But it didn't; Raziel chose instead to spare his life. Thus, history relative to Nosgoth had to alter to account for his continued existence relative to Raziel. But it would have done so, as we are told in the game, in the simplest possible way. History relative to Nosgoth therefore recorded Kain as making some other choice in the Sarafan chapel 500 years BPC - allowing Raziel to die utterly, not even following him back to that period, or any of an infinte possiblity of choices. Instead, Kain chose to pull the Reaver and save Raziel's life, whose history should have ended then and there. And so Nosgoth's history was forced to change once again, to accommodate Raziel's continued existence (and, perhaps, as mentioned in other discussions, the simultaneous existence of the Soul Reaver - truly now Raziel's twin soul, instead of only himself thousands of years older. Such an occurance may indeed be the simplest solution for the course of history...) Thus, a new course of preordained events has been created for Raziel throughout the ages of Nosgoth's history. It is yet up to Raziel, however, to follow them...

I have not yet been able to fit Moebius and the Elder into this concept yet, though I am certain that they do fit. It's just a matter of figuring out how...

DMK_Azrael
1st Jul 2002, 13:32
So you're saying that there's more than one choice, an infinitive possible of ways in history?

Interesting.....

Ender
1st Jul 2002, 22:29
very interesting idea. definately fits the flow of the games. awesome job!!!!

i've got a few ideas to offer up concerning the elder and mobeius

the elder...for some reason, he doesn't strike me as being as all powerful as he claims. So far all of his claims to have total power, are just that...claims. In SR1 he seems to be omniscent, speaking to Raz all over the world, but a thousand years in the past he only makes his presence known in the one chamber. (Correct me if i'm wrong, i think thats the only time he speaks) He does seem to grow with normal time, not Raz Time, and seems unaffected by any decisions Raz makes. I'm thinking he is outside of the changes made by Raz, but has no real effect directly on the events. He can only influeance Raz.

Mobeius...i see him as the instigator of this whole time traveling mess. He is responsible for, as far as i can tell, everything. Why? I have no frickin idea. He knew from his traveling that Kain would kill him and rise to power and utterly decimate Nosgoth. He admitted as much to Raz in SR2. We still don't know his true purpose behind all of this...the vampire purges seemed to be intended to make certain kain was the last of his kind. Maybe the idea was for kain to kill himself, restore the pillars (or would it destroy them?) thus eliminating vampires and restoring nosgoth to the humans (or in the other case, allowing the hylden access?). Maybe he simply could not see for certain the choice Kain would make in the end of BO1, and gambled....and lost.

Regardless of his reasons, there seems to be one element Mobeius cannot control.....going by your idea darien, it seems that an incarnation of Raz's soul (Raz, the reaver, but not Sarafan Raz) introduces the paradox that forces history to shift. To use the analogy in the games: the river of time with the pebbles being the people. THey have no real serious effect on the flow of time. The reaver in kain's hands is a big stone being chucked in...it causes some serious redirection, but eventually things will calm down. The reaver in Raz's hands.....essentially a dam forcing a redirection of the flow of time.

the only part i still can't fit together nicely is Raz killing himself in the past to allow his future (and therefore current) self to be born......

DMK_Azrael
1st Jul 2002, 23:54
This is getting interesting...

Well, as far i noticied, the Elder can only comunicate("whistper"?) if the "target" is near him. And as we see on SR1 the Elder appear to be all over Nosgoth... And i think he is just a soul sucking parasite that isn't affected by time (in presence) and something else that i forgot right now...lol

darien_specter
2nd Jul 2002, 00:01
Ender, I like your thinking!

I agree with you that the Elder is blowing smoke. I actually hadn't thought about the fact that Raziel hears him throughout Nosgoth in the future, but only underground in the past... interesting. The only thing that bothers me about the Elder is that, despite the fact that his body is growing relative to Nosgoth, he is conversing with Raziel relative to him. I hardly think he would have encouraged and trained Raziel (because the Elder did teach him what he needed to know, in any case) if he had known from his memory that Raziel would later spurn him. Perhaps he is some kind of dual being...

Your Moebius points are far more than I had managed to scrape together yet... fascinating.

I can speak to the last question, though. Raziel, in killing the Sarafan Raziel (and all the others) was the cause of their deaths; that soul (allowed to escape because Raziel was wielding the Reaver at that point) and body are what Kain would raise 1000 years later as his firstborn, and condemn to death another thousand years later in the Abyss. (Though Kain's motives have always seemed to be more than just jealousy, even then...) Unless that wasn't the thrust of your question...

Ender
2nd Jul 2002, 00:37
yeah... i totally forgot that the progression of the relationship between Raz and the elder proceeds in Raz time, not in terms of nosgoth time.....nutz......so either the elder IS affected by Raz's mucking about with things, or he is up to something else we don't yet know.....

another brainstorm: slight different view of the timestream. Rather then the river idea, its.....crap how do i explain this..... like a cable. You know, a braided steel cable where the major cable is made up of hundreds of tiny little ones all twisted together. Think of it like this: the big cable is the timestream....it goes where it will.....how it gets there doesn't matter too much, it all ultimately leads to something major. The smaller pieces inside it are the different small streams, all of them coexisting. At the start of BO1, we are in stream A. This si the normal progression of history, with William becoming the nemisis and laying waste and all that good stuff. We create a paradox when Kain kills william with the reaver, making the shift from stream A to Stream B. In this one Kain ultimately rules nosgoth, creates his vampires and condemns Raz to the abyss. Raz returns, chases kain and kills him in williams chapel. But, in SR2 he doesn't, altering the flow again and jumping to stream C. Now stream C is closely tied to B, because in both Raz still could be absorbed into the reaver. When kain saves Raz at the end, we make a momentuous jump to, oh say stream Y. Things have now really changed drastically.


and yeah, the brunt of my question was acutally the paradox of killing yourself in the past to allow your current self to be born....
becuase you have to already have been born of your dead self to kill yourself....i think it all hinges on the reaver somehow, since the creation of it is in itself the biggest paradox yet.

DMK- yeah, that makes sense. I forgot that the elder was sooooo much larger in SR1. he probably took up basically the underworld, allowing him to speak anywhere....cool cool, we are finally making some progress here.... i think

darien_specter
2nd Jul 2002, 02:16
Ahhh, DMK posted the solution to the Elder question whilst I was typing my reply...

Ender, I love that metaphor! You know, I'd love to see what you'd have to say to my other two theory threads... Do you mind trying to explain your question another way? I'm still not quite getting what you're asking.

Finally, we've got some good discussion flowing - I was beginning to worry... :D:D:D

Ender
2nd Jul 2002, 05:18
i think the problem is i don't know what the question i'm trying to ask is either :confused: there is just something about the idea that doesn't sit right with me, and i can't explain why. mostly cause i can't quite wrap my mind around the total implications of the idea of killing your past self to allow your current self to be born. although with your idea of Raz being the one relative to which history is written, i guess it really doesn't matter what he does, history will warp to fit it.....ok.....i guess that works....phew...i think i solved my problem without realizing it...thanks!!!

sorry if none of the above makes sense....i have a hard time transalating abstract ideas in my head to actual english....specially when the image is kinda fuzzy.....

so, lemme go searching for these other theroies you got....always ready to add my two cents, even if more often then not they turn out to be counterfeit :D

darien_specter
2nd Jul 2002, 07:34
They are "Paintings and Prophecy" and "A New Thought on the Reaver." They'll both say "repost" because I saved them from annihilation in the death of the old board...