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jsm2501
21st Dec 2015, 23:29
Hey does anybody else think that the next game to get remade should be Deus Ex? I mean after Final Fantasy 7.
Maybe we could start a petition!

Shralla
22nd Dec 2015, 01:12
We've had a lot of threads like these. Some people want a remake, and some don't. Those people will never agree.

Lolssi
23rd Dec 2015, 06:49
GMDX mod is propably best remake we would ever get anyway.

Shralla
23rd Dec 2015, 17:03
That's the opposite of a remake. It's the same engine with a ton of tweaks to the game. A remake is the same game on a new engine, ideally anyway.

CyberP
23rd Dec 2015, 21:01
There's no way Deus Ex's braindead AI, unpolished weaponry, low quality audio design and such would not be updated in any hypothetical remake, and there's no logical reason as to why they should not be either. None of that is ideal.

Shralla
25th Dec 2015, 18:16
As soon as you start changing game design aspects, there's little point in a remake. It doesn't reflect the original experience, so why not just play a new game (or a mod like yours) instead?

CyberP
28th Dec 2015, 09:18
A remake focused entirely on graphics does not reflect the original either. You change the visual design. Updated physics? Changes gameplay in a number of ways.



As soon as you start changing game design aspects, there's little point in a remake.

An opinion I disagree with. In mine, remakes should remake what logically needs remaking, and leave what does not. So in Deus Ex's case that'd be everything engine-related (visuals, physics) plus everything that GMDX tackles, leave mostly everything else. As great as DX was it was very flawed, see GMDX for an understanding of why tackling those flaws is necessary. AI that dumb would be laughed out of the modern market, for example. The Revision approach of attempting to make level geometry not so simplistic and squared would also be necessary, so level design would also be changed, although it doesn't have to be to that outlandish degree.

Deus Ex was far from perfect. Best game possibly made? Perhaps. Extremely flawed? Definitely. It's an achievement such a flawed game could be considered one of the greatest even today.

Trixmay
26th Jan 2016, 09:17
Hi. I know this has been talked about many times before, but I'm passionate about the original Deus Ex and I believe if done right, the game can be redone on the new Mankind Divided engine. With the introduction of the 'Deus Ex Universe', a package including Deus Ex, Deus Ex Invisible War and Deus Ex Human Revolution for current consoles and PC would be great. Deus Ex Human Revolution can be left alone, or if it's simple enough and doesn't take much time, can be ported to the MKD engine too, but it doesn't really matter because it still looks great. Deus Ex Invisible War I think should either be left out or be given a fully fledged remake in the same way as the original. It could have been a good game but had design flaws.

I believe on the new engine with certain things tweaked and fixed it could be a great game. It's still cannon, so I feel like something needs to be done for it. The original however would be the center piece. All original music, most original dialogue, original design ideas (I'm talking health system, melee system etc. if things are out of date then they will obviously need to be fixed and improved) and etc. More than anything I'd love to see the original on the new engine. I believe it could be possible and would be fantastic. To me it just makes sense with the whole new Deus Ex Universe thing. Remakes are a trend, and it'd still feel like a new game for people who never played the original because it'd be on a new engine unlike say, Halo Anniversary. I'm sorry for bringing up an old topic, but I just really want this. Deus Ex is a game that needs to be remembered. It doesn't have to be in a triple package, maybe it could just be alone. Whatever. I just really think it could work. Warren Spector says he'd like to see it happen and look on any Deus Ex video and you'll see someone begging for a remake, other than me of course.

SageSavage
26th Jan 2016, 10:20
Many people wanted an updated version of the original at one point or another in their "DX-fan-carrer" - me too. But when you really think about it, there's a ton of stuff that would've to be altered a lot to work nowadays. The sum of all that would feel like a very different game.

Trixmay
26th Jan 2016, 12:58
Many people wanted an updated version of the original at one point or another in their "DX-fan-carrer" - me too. But when you really think about it, there's a ton of stuff that would've to be altered a lot to work nowadays. The sum of all that would feel like a very different game.
I've been a fan for ages and have always wanted it. I still think if they do it right they could get it to work and get it right.

joswilliams85
8th Feb 2016, 09:29
Deus Ex is the game that deserves a remake, but not only visual. Shooting in this game was probably one of the worst shooting I ever experienced. That's the reason why I used the sword(the one you get in Hong Kong), and sometimes pistol and shotgun. Because they had the best aim in serious fights.

68_pie
8th Feb 2016, 13:44
Deus Ex is the game that deserves a remake, but not only visual. Shooting in this game was probably one of the worst shooting I ever experienced. That's the reason why I used the sword(the one you get in Hong Kong), and sometimes pistol and shotgun. Because they had the best aim in serious fights.

So there's these things called skill points...

xaduha3
8th Feb 2016, 15:34
Yep, it wasn't that unusual for RPG-ish games at that time to determine whether you're going to miss or not based on more than just your aim, e.g. Morrowind.

Careful shot can be made without any skills, but you couldn't just go in, guns blazing, without skills and augs.


serious fights

There's your problem right there.

In any case, there won't be DX remake. There can be DX reboot, but only when HR series is done and it's nowhere close to that point.

Shralla
8th Feb 2016, 16:43
Deus Ex is the game that deserves a remake, but not only visual. Shooting in this game was probably one of the worst shooting I ever experienced. That's the reason why I used the sword(the one you get in Hong Kong), and sometimes pistol and shotgun. Because they had the best aim in serious fights.

It's almost like it's an RPG or something.

joswilliams85
10th Feb 2016, 10:47
So there's these things called skill points...

I know about skill points. First time I played it, I was a typical soldier. I had pistol and rifle skills on advanced level. And shooting was still.. not good. Except pistol and sawed-off shotgun. Shooting using pistol was more accurate then with sniper rifle. That's why on my next playthrough I used only sword,pistol, and sometimes shotgun. And of course hacking and lockpicking:)

joswilliams85
10th Feb 2016, 14:26
Yep, it wasn't that unusual for RPG-ish games at that time to determine whether you're going to miss or not based on more than just your aim, e.g. Morrowind.

Careful shot can be made without any skills, but you couldn't just go in, guns blazing, without skills and augs.



There's your problem right there.

In any case, there won't be DX remake. There can be DX reboot, but only when HR series is done and it's nowhere close to that point.
Hey, it's not that I like fights. I mean Deus Ex provides you with different ways to accomplish mission. You even can kill two bosses using only one phrase. But still, these ways should be more or less equal. Stealth is more or less good, but fights... sometimes it's easier to run away, or kill enemies with sword.

And you mentioned Morrowind. Combat system there is the most frustrating combat I ever experienced. When I can't hit a worm with my sword, standing as close as possible to him, and seeing how my sword cuts his body...it's just..hard to describe.That's why I liked Oblivion more( but I didn't like leveling system there.)

SageSavage
10th Feb 2016, 17:36
And you mentioned Morrowind. Combat system there is the most frustrating combat I ever experienced. When I can't hit a worm with my sword, standing as close as possible to him, and seeing how my sword cuts his body...it's just..hard to describe.That's why I liked Oblivion more( but I didn't like leveling system there.)

Same here. Stat-based aiming in an ImSim is counterproductive and I hope it will never come back.

Shralla
10th Feb 2016, 20:08
Same here. Stat-based aiming in an ImSim is counterproductive

No it isn't. Letting you rely entirely on your own personal real-life skill from the beginning of the game is counterproductive. That's not immersive, it's just any old shooter on the planet.

SageSavage
10th Feb 2016, 20:50
No it isn't. Letting you rely entirely on your own personal real-life skill from the beginning of the game is counterproductive. That's not immersive, it's just any old shooter on the planet.

Not letting you -at least- rely on your own personal real-life skill from the beginning feels retarded. And yes, in terms of shooting, it should feel like a good, realistic shooter. What makes it more then a shooter is what else it has to offer.

joswilliams85
11th Feb 2016, 12:41
No it isn't. Letting you rely entirely on your own personal real-life skill from the beginning of the game is counterproductive. That's not immersive, it's just any old shooter on the planet.

Let's take for example Dark Messiah. Yes, I know that this is more action than RPG, but still-remember how you fight at the beginning and at the end. Main differences were in damage, speed and some moves. But when you hit someone- you HIT him. Or let's take as example Gothic(first two parts). Combat system was a bit difficult to understand at the beginning. But when you are an amateur you can't make long combos, your speed is low etc. And your damage is very low, all you can do to high level enemies is.. compared to a small scratch. But still you hit this enemy. And what we see in Morrowind- on low lvl you can't hit a simple worm, even when you see how you hit him. I mean you can kill him, but it will take more time than it shoud. And similar thing I had in deus ex with guns, especially with machine guns.

CyberP
22nd Feb 2016, 12:28
Same here. Stat-based aiming in an ImSim is counterproductive and I hope it will never come back.

You are under the impression that Immersive Sims are about simulation above all else. They are not. System Shock 2 wouldn't even let you put a weapon in your hand if you didn't make the related RPG investment.

The accuracy system in Deus Ex is unique, encourages you to look for alternate solutions, adds greater emphasis in tactical gameplay than run & gun...at least up until you attain 100% accuracy, then the game style can change to pure player skill, which is also a pretty cool thing. I wouldn't want this system in every game, but I'm totally glad they had the balls to do it in Deus Ex.


Let's take for example Dark Messiah. Yes, I know that this is more action than RPG, but still-remember how you fight at the beginning and at the end. Main differences were in damage, speed and some moves. But when you hit someone- you HIT him. Or let's take as example Gothic(first two parts). Combat system was a bit difficult to understand at the beginning. But when you are an amateur you can't make long combos, your speed is low etc. And your damage is very low, all you can do to high level enemies is.. compared to a small scratch. But still you hit this enemy. And what we see in Morrowind- on low lvl you can't hit a simple worm, even when you see how you hit him. I mean you can kill him, but it will take more time than it shoud. And similar thing I had in deus ex with guns, especially with machine guns.

If you're not hitting enemies with your weapon in Deus Ex, you're doing it wrong or taking too many RNG-influenced chances. Learn how to play. A good player will not miss often based on a combination of good decision-making and understanding of the systems. And actual (player mouse/controller) aiming of course.

Some tips:

-Standing still for a few seconds grants an accuracy bonus.
-Stay at full health when possible. Damage to arms, torso and head negatively influence accuracy.
-Invest in weapons skills if you intend to shoot often.
-Mod your weapons. And don't forget to turn your laser mod on if you have one.
-Once a weapon attains 100% accuracy as per the weapon stat viewable via the inventory, all dynamics of the accuracy system can mostly safely be ignored and shooting becomes just like in any other game.
-Most important of all: if your accuracy for the particular weapon in hand is bad, consider whether or not it is a good idea to actually use it for the situation you are in! e.g do you have time to stand around waiting for the accuracy bonus? If not, consider running away, go melee, pull up the health menu and heal your arms, or switch to a weapon with better accuracy. So many choices, the system encourages using them.

SageSavage
23rd Feb 2016, 02:52
You are under the impression that Immersive Sims are about simulation above all else. They are not. System Shock 2 wouldn't even let you put a weapon in your hand if you didn't make the related RPG investment.

The accuracy system in Deus Ex is unique, encourages you to look for alternate solutions, adds greater emphasis in tactical gameplay than run & gun...at least up until you attain 100% accuracy, then the game style can change to pure player skill, which is also a pretty cool thing. I wouldn't want this system in every game, but I'm totally glad they had the balls to do it in Deus Ex.

System Shock 2 has standard shooter aiming without the stat-based sway. I'm fine with kickback (and reducing it via skill/augmentation/perks) and I'm also ok with not being able to use certain weapons without the associated skill (although it could be handled a bit more organic/natural, I guess). I'm also fine with various other extra-stuff like faster reloading etc., as long as it's on top of an unpenalized aiming system.

Deus Ex and even more so Morrowind make me feel like an idiot whith their imposed penalties. In DX it's the extreme sway, which I realize is to some degree closer to reality then the standard shooter but feels wrong anyhow - especially because it's way too much. In Morrowind it's an even more abstract, stat-based 'chance to hit'-formula:

Chance to hit = Attacker's weapon skill * 1.25 + Attacker's Attack (e.g. Warrior = 10) - Defender's Sanctuary (e.g. Thief = 10) + (Attacker's Agility - Defender's Agility) * 0.25 + (Attacker's Luck - Defender's Luck) * 0.125
That worked in classic P&P and isometric RPGs but lost it's legitimacy with the switch to FP view. At least this is not to my taste and potentially immersion breaking, whereas the standard shooter-system is not. It also has to do with expectations - I wager that it is the main cause for why a significant number of people were thrown off the game even before entering the Statue of Liberty. Once you know how it works and that you can make the sway go away later on, it's easier to tolerate.

So, obviously I still enjoy my DX but that is despite the initial aiming-impairment and I know for a fact that it irritaded a lot of people other than me, too. I always wished for the gunplay of Stalker:SoC in DX, that felt great to me. It does have penalties for non-ideal shooting conditions but it doesn't feel like you're a blindsighted alcoholic with tremor and a bunch of monkeys on his back.

xaduha3
23rd Feb 2016, 03:22
<shakes head> When I first played DX it was on a very slow computer, there were other things in the way. I still was enthralled by the game, though.

Some modern games use something that I consider a form it. I'm talking about shield blocks and dodges. Skyrim has blocks, doesn't it? In Shadow Warrior enemies dodge when you target them. I think the earliest instance of that in 3D games was in Unreal with their Skaarj. It does look scripted, because it is, but you can tie it to a stat, so it would affect the delay between targeting someone and their reaction. I do admit that making UNATCO troops as agile as Skaarj could look stupid. My point is - it is solved for First-Person view, but does it make it more believable or maybe the opposite?

CyberP
25th Feb 2016, 16:35
I wager that it is the main cause for why a significant number of people were thrown off the game even before entering the Statue of Liberty.

Very likely.


I always wished for the gunplay of Stalker:SoC in DX, that felt great to me. It does have penalties for non-ideal shooting conditions but it doesn't feel like you're a blindsighted alcoholic with tremor and a bunch of monkeys on his back.

I agree with the points you made but the usual methods of aiming/shooting in games aren't exactly realistic either.
I appreciate you have differing tastes to myself but I find it a shame that many people are not accepting of DX's system. Morrowind or VTM:B's system I understand, VTM:B's especially, but Deus Ex's is very logical and player-influenced. I find it very enjoyable, while VTM:B's just pisses me off.

By the way, I went to great lengths to make the shooting feel more visceral closer to the likes of STALKER in the latest version of GMDX, but of course without doing away with the tactical accuracy system. The game can be a headshot-fest enough as it is...the system encourages alternative play, or you can just invest in skills early for everyday-shooter skill-based fun.