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DMK_Azrael
30th Jun 2002, 20:04
Original Question:

Posted by LadyMinerva:
I have a question.
I have a question.
If wraith blade in Raziel leaves him to go totally into the physical blade before it turns its physical couterpart on him, then when Raz goes spectral, how is it that the wraith blade is waiting for him in the spectral realm, if it been reabsorbed by the physical blade?


Posted by NoobSaibot:
The wraith blade was compleetly Uncurelled from raz. The wraith blade was using the physical vampiric blade to trap raz's soul in the physical blade to free itself. That was the meaning of FULL CIRCLE! That was the moment when he was both freed(as his future incarnation the wraith blade) and bound to become the soul devouring entity inside the sword(turning into the WRAITH BLADE).

This was a response to Warps own "theory", and to the question:


Posted by warpsavant::
The Physical blade absorbed part of Raziels soul AND it absorbed some of the wraith blade. Not enough to trap raziel however, as he is there in the spectral realm at the end of the game.
If kain was not there, RAZIEL and THE wraith blade would be entirely trapped in the Sword.

SirRaziel
1st Jul 2002, 13:24
Well here's how I see it. When Raziel impales himself he realises that the Reaver was not stealing any souls except his and thats why the Reaver consumes Souls. When the distortion takes place that is when the Reaver becomes the Soul Reaver. Kain removes the Soul Reaver. Now the Soul Reaver can become the Wraith in the future. And from then on because Raziel's soul is twinned the Soul Reaver cannot devour it's own soul and therefore will Break as it did in Sr1 unless Raziel goes further back in time and get fully comsume of which I'll slap my forehead if that happens. And because Raziel wasn't fully consumed quite obviously as we've seen the Wraithblade is still a part of Raziel. Weaker but still Raziel can reclaim his true destiny.

TheElderGodofNosgoth
2nd Jul 2002, 02:43
Raziel says the following at the end of SR2.

Raziel:

Sensing its twin, the wraith-blade uncoiled itself from me - and instead wound lovingly around its former self.
I felt its grip loosen, and as the blade left me, its absence chilled me more than its presence ever had.
A forboding sense of emptiness and loss stole over me... and a terrible revelation gathered like a storm at the edge of my awareness...

With all other foes exhausted, the conjoined blades turned themselves on me. And I realized, finally, why I had sensed nothing when Janos offered me the blade.
The Reaver was never forged to be a soul-stealing weapon...

... the ravenous, soul-devouring entity trapped in the blade was - and always had been - me.
This is why the blade was destroyed when Kain tried to strike me down - the Reaver could not devour its own soul. The paradox shattered the blade.
So - this was my terrible destiny - to play out this purgatorial cycle for all eternity...
I could not bear it - despair overwhelmed me.

And then... a growing sense of vertigo, and the familiar displacement...
... the paradoxical moment when my twinned soul hovered both outside and inside the Reaver blade...
This was the instant - the glimmer of temporal distortion - Kain had been counting on all along.
This was the edge of the coin - the minute flicker of probability upon which Kain had gambled everything.

Anyway, this is what I think happened. We got two Reavers. The wrath blade and the "Blood" Reaver. When Raziel's wrath blade "wound lovingly around its former self" the "Blood" Reaver took on the classic soul devowering characteristic. The "Blood" Reaver proceads to consume Raziel's soul. When and if the "Blood" Reaver consums Raziel's sould it will become the Soul Reaver and the wrath blade will desolve into nothingness. It would not make any sence that the wrath blade would be consumed as well because the two souls would be fighting to consume souls. The wrath blade must die which would make sence. If this whole thing was consturted by the Hylden and Raziel is some kind of Jesus Vampire they would want him dead. And why not use him to do there derty work for them first. :)

SirRaziel
3rd Jul 2002, 13:36
Well even before Kain changed time again. The SoulReaver was already the twinned soul of Raziel. Now Moebius is the Time Streamer and orchestrated the demise of Raziel and Kain. But Moebius wasn't the first Time Guardian. An ancient was. That Ancient would have seen the demise of the Ancients and his successors. So really how do you think Janos knows about Raziel. Perhaps the first Time Streamer ensured Moebius could not fully unravel time. And always allow Raziel to reclaim his true destiny. This way no matter the interference by Moebius. The original circle saw Raziel coming and already set the path to allow the restoration of the Vampires through Raziel and in future Return the pillars to the Vampires in the form of Kain. The Ancients forged the blade and knew more about it than Moebius. So they would always allow Raziel to be the key and ensure that there would always be a Nosgoth worth living in.

DMK_Azrael
3rd Jul 2002, 16:15
WOW :eek:
Now thats a good theory, but i once thinked on something resembing to that (but not to deep as you)

Posted by DMK_Azrel:
I've been thinking and i reached to this conclusion:
-The Ancients were the ones who erected the Pillars right???So there was 9 guardians, and there was a Time Guardian vampire...so this lets me think they know about the Reaver, Raziel, the Wraith Blade....
-And maybe thats the reason Janos knows Raziel...and why do he asked what "they" have done to him??...I think it's because that Raziel was never to be like that (i think if Kain didn't killed William in BO1, Raziel (maybe) should be in his vampiric condition) since Janos maybe as been told by the (vampire) Guardian of Time, that he must stay and guard the Reaver for the Vampire Raziel come to take it...
**Now DMK's brains explodes into a million pieces in the room**
-note sorry for the (ultra) extras "I think" in this post...

SirRaziel
3rd Jul 2002, 23:32
Thanks mate I appriciate the compliment. I think its time for a survey. If you were a time streamer what would you do?

Vampmaster
7th Jul 2002, 17:50
Originally posted by TheElderGodofNosgoth

Anyway, this is what I think happened. We got two Reavers. The wrath blade and the "Blood" Reaver. When Raziel's wrath blade "wound lovingly around its former self" the "Blood" Reaver took on the classic soul devowering characteristic. The "Blood" Reaver proceads to consume Raziel's soul. When and if the "Blood" Reaver consums Raziel's sould it will become the Soul Reaver and the wrath blade will desolve into nothingness. It would not make any sence that the wrath blade would be consumed as well because the two souls would be fighting to consume souls. The wrath blade must die which would make sence. If this whole thing was consturted by the Hylden and Raziel is some kind of Jesus Vampire they would want him dead. And why not use him to do there derty work for them first. :)

That's what I think, except I don't think the wraith blade would dissolve into nothingness. Remember, the are not just two blades but two versions of Raziel's soul from different points in his life (one is the wraith blade and the other is the one getting trapped in the physical blade). It would either turn back into Raziel after waiting 2000 years for the blade to be broke and being brought back in time by the younger Raz who just got sucked into the blade or it would become a floating soul like he consumes or it would choose a new host. Kain would be my choice for this.

KainSyndrome101
7th Jul 2002, 18:56
The Reaver didn't suck Raziel in, the wraith-blade sucked Raziel's soul into the Reaver. Since the wraith-blade was all over the Reaver, it just gave it to the Reaver instead of itself, and it then transformed into the Soul Reaver. But Kain saves him, and Raziel is released. But he still has the wraith-blade, which means it's still gonna suck him in in the future.

SoulGamer
8th Jul 2002, 02:31
Well like someone already said, the wraith blade completely left Raziel. And was comsumed by the physical reaver. During the distortion Raziel said his twinned soul was both inside and outside the blade. The wraith blade never returned to Raziel until he returned to the spectral realm. According to history, the distortion placed the wraith blade and part(if not most) of raziel's soul inside the reaver. From what we saw the wraith didn't return to Raziel, cause it never left. The wraith blade was Raziel's twin soul, we witnessed the beginning of the wraith blade's circle. Follow me so far? lol The soul reaver only needed enough of Raziel's life force to be able to reaver souls. But no one else was there to remove it from raziel when it had enough so it could not stop until he was totally consumed. But Kain changed that. So the wraith blade's history comes full circle . tell me what you think I said lol So I know I got through to you Later

Vampmaster
8th Jul 2002, 19:01
I didn't say the physical blade was the one doing the sucking. The wraith blade couldn't consume Raziels soul (otherwise the soul could never become the wraith blade) but because it was COILED AROUND (not inside or consumed by) the Blood Reaver, it forced Raziels soul into the Blood Reaver and then uncoiled from it leaving Raziels soul inside.

If instead, the wraith blade was inside the Blood Reaver (which would make it the physical Soul Reaver), then it would only be the same circumstances as when Kain shattered it on him in SR1. It wouldn't have needed Raziels soul to become the Soul Reaver if that last sentence was the case. The wraith blade is Raziels future self so it couldn't enter the blade before he did.

NexusStone
28th Jul 2007, 03:42
When he taked the reaver from kain in the spirit realm (sr1) , when raz go to the spectral realm he have the reaver