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View Full Version : ABILITIES Time to fix broken eldritch shield. Some suggestions.



ParadoxicalOmen
21st Nov 2015, 14:18
Eldritch shield has always been a good ability, and i myself consider is much better than sacrifice since it is instant and doesn't stop you from doing anything else (and doesn't damage you).

It is very good ability, but wasn't very game breaking cause the shield is 325 dmg. Basically this saves you from 2 melee attacks or an ability.

Now this changed for the worse with the introduction of the Blood-weaver Talent.
Eldritch shield with this Talent is absurdly over powered...the only reason the game isn't broken is because most people don't realize this, and don't exploit this. So in general you have matches where only 1 prophet uses this and it isn't so bad.
But smart and good players take advantage of this, so there are teams with 3 prophets (each with this loadout) and each time you initiate as vampire, you get denied. Usually they do this with a scout, so you get severally punished while you do no damage at all (since basically whole team is shielded).
The shield is too high, so in these situations only option would be to leave and wait for timeout...which is hard cause you have to get in, make all prophets activate it, get out and wait....and not sustain massive damage while you do this (and usually humans sustain almost no damage).

Now enough of complaining, and onto suggestions...i basically have 3 suggestions that me and some friends thought about...
1) Reduce the shield buff from Blood-weaver to 50%, totaling around 400 dmg shield.
2) Change how the shield works, cause if you think about it, this is only shield with no disadvantage (Ignore Pain reduces damage, doesn't absorb 100%, AND can't attack or use abilities...and Deathly shield absorbs 100% damage, but you can't attack or use abilities)

• 2.1) While your teammate has your shield active, he cannot attack OR has reduced weapon damage.
• 2.2) The active shield only reduces damage, and not absorb 100%...while your teammate has your shield active, he is only shielded 50% of damage (for example)

GrayPhilosophy
22nd Nov 2015, 11:11
As much as I hate to admit it, cause I use it myself, I have to agree. The shield blocks out a substantial amount of damage even without the perk, so it's powerful in its own right. Multiple prophets with this slotted can quickly make half their team invulnerable for a short time, which is extremely punishing even against a good vampire initiation. It could do with a counter.

How about, instead of disabling attacks or just reducing damage, the shield continues to work like it does already. Blocks damage completely and you can still attack.

But! the tradeoff is that if you attack while shielded, the duration is lowered by X amount equal to Y damage dealt or something. That way, it's counterintuitive to shield everyone and shoot the vampires at the same time. It'll be more of an assisted escape tool. In case the shielded player figures they don't need the shield they can turn around and shoot, effectively disspelling their own shield faster in order to deal damage. I guess it also gives the shielded player a bit of choice, letting them decide for themselves whether they want to take advantage of the shield they've been given or not.

senjuj
22nd Nov 2015, 11:29
give to tyrants and summoners ability to cast ip and ds (with attack) on other vampires. :D :D

Da_Wolv
22nd Nov 2015, 14:13
Maybe instead of having just a damage threshhold the shields can also be forcably broken by stun/stagger (i.e. Kick, Ground Slam, Dominate Mind and Fall Damage of any kind - Throw, Abudct, Wing Flap etc.)
That way the shield needs to be placed more tactically (f.i. after stun and stagger abilities have already hit) and not just blindly putting it on anyone that gets attacked.
That way it will still be valuable in denying damage from Abducts while not having the targets land with an extra 100-400 Health amd still protect against Puncture spam or cancelling out an Infect/Hit combo focus, while not being too overly punishing against Reavers and Tyrants, which could save up their skill shots to deny the shield.

SonixSquad
22nd Nov 2015, 16:36
I think broken is a BIT STRONG a word.

I have never been in a match that my team lost purely down to Eldritch spamming alone or that we won down to Eldritch spamming alone (a measly 700+ hours in Nosgoth for reference). If you do end up in one of those scenarios, one of the teams was a lot less experienced in dealing with it and thats mainly it, not Eldritch. The solution is obviously to seperate the Prophets from the pack and kill them... with your whole team. Teamwork. That damage shield does not last forever.


Most experienced players know teamplay is king in this game. Not one single ability.


Eldritch is a support ability, it uses up the Prophets secondary ability slot to use it (instead of an offensive ability) and places the Prophet in more of a support role with one less offensive ability.


I do use Eldritch on my Prophets but guess what I use it against? Sentinels. Thats all. Sentinels. Its my counter to Sentinel abduct/kidnap spamming.
If there are no Sentinels playing, I would much rather equip Life Drain which is an offensive ability and will more than likely save my butt more than Eldritch will as I can't cast that on myself and its not an offensive ability.

And guess what happens when I play a good team of Sentinels and I start using Edlrtich?
Thats right they focus me until I'm dead. Thats whats supposed to happen.

I could agree that it could maybe use a slight tweak, but only on one condition. Reduce Kidnap/Abduct stagger recovery time. Deal?

ParadoxicalOmen
22nd Nov 2015, 16:44
How about, instead of disabling attacks or just reducing damage, the shield continues to work like it does already. Blocks damage completely and you can still attack.

But! the tradeoff is that if you attack while shielded, the duration is lowered by X amount equal to Y damage dealt or something. That way, it's counterintuitive to shield everyone and shoot the vampires at the same time. It'll be more of an assisted escape tool. In case the shielded player figures they don't need the shield they can turn around and shoot, effectively disspelling their own shield faster in order to deal damage. I guess it also gives the shielded player a bit of choice, letting them decide for themselves whether they want to take advantage of the shield they've been given or not.

I like this idea a lot, and i have a suggestion to it.
How about any damage attempt be calculated and deducted from the shield (not just the damage dealt)?
For example, if you are a hunter and you shoot 3 times with a siege bow...that means 3 x 80. So your shield takes 240 damage INDEPENDENT if you hit a vampire or not.


Maybe instead of having just a damage threshhold the shields can also be forcably broken by stun/stagger (i.e. Kick, Ground Slam, Dominate Mind and Fall Damage of any kind - Throw, Abudct, Wing Flap etc.)
That way the shield needs to be placed more tactically (f.i. after stun and stagger abilities have already hit) and not just blindly putting it on anyone that gets attacked.


It is an interesting idea, although this could make the Blood-weaver shield buff a bit useless. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, since this idea is a way to balance shield spam.

The fact is, this shield has no disadvantage, no trade-off...just a marvelous game-breaking invulnerability.
Some say "oh but you trade an offensive slot for shield, and you can't use it on yourself"...but if you think just for a little bit, you'll realize that all you need is to have another prophet, so she use it on you while you use it on her...

So in a real situation, where you have a minimally decent team, this ability is the same as you activating a shield for yourself where there is no down-side...and a shield of MORE THAN HALF YOUR HEALTH i might add...

Imagine if Tyrant was able to activate Ignore Pain an continue attacking? It's almost the same thing...Shield needs a nerf ASAP.

SonixSquad
22nd Nov 2015, 16:55
The fact is, this shield has no disadvantage, no trade-off...just a marvelous game-breaking invulnerability.
Some say "oh but you trade an offensive slot for shield, and you can't use it on yourself"...but if you think just for a little bit, you'll realize that all you need is to have another prophet, so she use it on you while you use it on her...



With all due respect, do you really think anyone with 700 hours of playing hasn't seen or even tried that tactic before? lol

Believe me, that only works against Pugs and teams that don't have the experience and knowledge to seperate players from the pack and focus them down.,.
As someone else once told me on here, you don't balance abilities around inexperienced players. :)

BUT I am not disagreeing that it could use a reduction in shield amount maybe with the perk. It certainly is not broken though and reducing the shield amount will not stop anyone from trying to 1v1 a shielded prophet from complaining that its Op.

ParadoxicalOmen
22nd Nov 2015, 19:54
With all due respect, do you really think anyone with 700 hours of playing hasn't seen or even tried that tactic before? lol


I know, but i believe you haven't played against a good team that tried this tactic. Noobs trying to do this are going to fail of course...
I have played against a 3 prophet team using this tactics, but they were horrible at it...so we ended up winning, and they eventually gave up on the tactic.

The problem is the potential of this tactic when used by good teams. I played against a few of them, and it's really frustrating...even though my team was good, they denied almost all of our attacks (they all cover each other and shield each other...and use Scout so you have a hard time separating them with Sentinel).

Even if you think I'm just whining, you have got to admit that it is unbalanced. Of course lowering the shield will help, the way it is now the shield withstands at least 2 abilities or 4 melee strikes.
But the thing i haven't realized until a while back is how there is no bad-side from using this ability. Using a shield that absorbs 100% of incoming damage should have some down-side...reduced damage, reduced accuracy, mobility...something.

Farnbeak
25th Nov 2015, 09:35
Hey ParadoxicalOmen, :wave:

The problem with this post is the obvious lack of empirical evidence or even theoretical analysis. With the axiomatic statements you make it just sounds like another 'smth-OP cry post': 'Even if you think I'm just whining, you have got to admit that it is unbalanced' after losing to smth stacked be it 3x explo shots 3x charged shots 3x poison bola whatever (not even mentioning vamp abilities)


I know, but i believe you haven't played against a good team that tried this tactic. Noobs trying to do this are going to fail of course...
I have played against a 3 prophet team using this tactics, but they were horrible at it...so we ended up winning, and they eventually gave up on the tactic.

Maybe, just maybe, its not that OP then('absurdly over powered','a nerf ASAP')?

Lets just take a look at the empirical moment then :)
Since we don't have the hard data, lets try going above the 3-4 extreme cases you mentioned in your arguements and compare the average rates of eldritch use we see (considering you play regularly).
How many of the prophets do you see ingame use eldritch? I see definitely no more than 25-30%, Leech still being a more popular choice.
How many of the prophets did you see use eldritch before the bloodweaver talent? I remember it was the marginal skill being used <10% of the time, every prophet just ran leech back then.

Based on what the majority of players picks to play and win (myself included) I dont see 'absurdly overpowered'.
But, well, you suggested that 'the only reason the game isn't broken is because most people don't realize this, and don't exploit this'. Its quite convenient to think everyone's just ignorant for 2+ months but I don't think that's the case :rolleyes:

Ok, maybe the picks and % don't matter because its the stacking that is the problem as in your examples (except the noobs you defeated so maybe its not)?


The problem is the potential of this tactic when used by good teams. I played against a few of them, and it's really frustrating...even though my team was good, they denied almost all of our attacks (they all cover each other and shield each other...and use Scout so you have a hard time separating them with Sentinel).

For empirical evidence on 'stacking smth = too OP' when in the hands of the best teams around you should definitely go check ESL, right? Wouldn't anyone stack something absurdly overpowered for real world money as in the past? :thumb: Any examples on eldritch 3+ stacking?

Now I really think that's a lenghthy comment, so I'll pass on the theoretical part this time. You can always ask me to elaborate on that if interested - I'll do it in a separate comment then. But I'll just mention that eldritch does not work as a straight 'half hp buff' as it may seem on paper, you lose on the talents you could have picked otherwise and don't forget you compare it to the 'create a 400 dmg difference' leech skill.

ParadoxicalOmen
25th Nov 2015, 10:40
Hey ParadoxicalOmen, :wave:

The problem with this post is the obvious lack of empirical evidence or even theoretical analysis. With the axiomatic statements you make it just sounds like another 'smth-OP cry post': 'Even if you think I'm just whining, you have got to admit that it is unbalanced' after losing to smth stacked be it 3x explo shots 3x charged shots 3x poison bola whatever (not even mentioning vamp abilities)

Maybe, just maybe, its not that OP then('absurdly over powered','a nerf ASAP')?


Empirical evidence...i honestly think it's just a simple matter of analyzing the ability.
An ability the shield you for more than half you health, with no down-side whatsoever...seems a bit unfair no? If it isn't, why not let Tyrant attack after he use Ignore Pain, and Summoner attack after she use Deathly Shield?





Lets just take a look at the empirical moment then :)
Since we don't have the hard data, lets try going above the 3-4 extreme cases you mentioned in your arguements and compare the average rates of eldritch use we see (considering you play regularly).
How many of the prophets do you see ingame use eldritch? I see definitely no more than 25-30%, Leech still being a more popular choice.
How many of the prophets did you see use eldritch before the bloodweaver talent? I remember it was the marginal skill being used <10% of the time, every prophet just ran leech back then.

Based on what the majority of players picks to play and win (myself included) I dont see 'absurdly overpowered'.
But, well, you suggested that 'the only reason the game isn't broken is because most people don't realize this, and don't exploit this'. Its quite convenient to think everyone's just ignorant for 2+ months but I don't think that's the case :rolleyes:

Ok, maybe the picks and % don't matter because its the stacking that is the problem as in your examples (except the noobs you defeated so maybe its not)?


This sounds like a bad argument to me...you're basically saying "It doesn't happen to me, and/or it's has very little chance of happening...so let it be...".
If something is unfair or unbalanced, it should be fixed...independent if it doesn't happen so often.



For empirical evidence on 'stacking smth = too OP' when in the hands of the best teams around you should definitely go check ESL, right? Wouldn't anyone stack something absurdly overpowered for real world money as in the past? :thumb: Any examples on eldritch 3+ stacking?


I don't play ESL since it's region exclusive, so i can't say if there are many teams that use it or not...if they want to win, they should definitely consider using it though.

SonixSquad
26th Nov 2015, 20:25
There are a few ESL players that visit these forums, I'm hoping one will chime in soon to inform us wether the current ESL meta includes stacking Eldritch. Thats usually a good indication of current effectiveness of class stacking. But these things do get tweaked immediately if found to be too effective (Bulwark, Savage Pounce etc).

Sorry, but making Op claims based on speculation of an abilities effectiveness in PUB PUG play is not any sort of credible evidence any experienced veteran player here will listen to seriously.
These kind of nerf posts only serve to lower the skill ceiling till there is no learning curve left at which point most players who enjoy a challenge will stop playing and the game will die.

ParadoxicalOmen
27th Nov 2015, 17:40
There are a few ESL players that visit these forums, I'm hoping one will chime in soon to inform us wether the current ESL meta includes stacking Eldritch. Thats usually a good indication of current effectiveness of class stacking. But these things do get tweaked immediately if found to be too effective (Bulwark, Savage Pounce etc).

Not all...i still feel the sprint exploit by the Scouts should be treated. Although to be fair, at least they fixed it so only Scout can do this now (it used to be all humans).
There is nothing skillful about simply pressing the sprint key, and vampires can't connect any melee strike on you...



Sorry, but making Op claims based on speculation of an abilities effectiveness in PUB PUG play is not any sort of credible evidence any experienced veteran player here will listen to seriously.
These kind of nerf posts only serve to lower the skill ceiling till there is no learning curve left at which point most players who enjoy a challenge will stop playing and the game will die.

You're free to speak your mind, but i still wasn't convinced that ES (with the talent ofc) is fair.
My point remains that:
All shield or invulnerability abilities should have a trade-off, just like it is done with Evasion (can't attack/use abilities and still take AOE damage), Deathly shield (can't attack/use abilities), Ignore Pain (can't attack/use abilities and is 80% shield, not 100%).
So ES doesn't respect this, it's an ability with one of the highest shield (more than half health of 100% damage shield) that has no trade-off.

Raptr0s
28th Nov 2015, 04:07
I kinda like it when it reduced damage by a hell of a lot, instead of making you invincible anywhere from 300 to 600 damage.

ParadoxicalOmen
28th Nov 2015, 20:28
I kinda like it when it reduced damage by a hell of a lot, instead of making you invincible anywhere from 300 to 600 damage.

Was this during closed beta? I honestly don't remember this...

Raptr0s
1st Dec 2015, 23:45
@Paradox

Yeah, it must've been. A lot of things have changed since then, like the Vanguards shield repelling pounces and abducts.

But yeah, Eldritch used to only reduce a set amount of damage, which was the same amount as it has now.

So, instead of being invincible, the shield would absorb I think 90% damage up to 350.

I believe this was only just recently changed within a few months. Not many people used the shield often enough.

Now it sees much more usage, especially as an offensive tool.

Anyways, if I ran into some prophets pullin' this nonsense, I'd back out asap if possible and just wait out their shields. That way, they just wasted them.

Try to bait them to shield by using a deceiver by getting in close, or maybe a reaver, then shadowstep out.

Just an Idea

Farnbeak
2nd Dec 2015, 08:45
Empirical evidence...i honestly think it's just a simple matter of analyzing the ability.
An ability the shield you for more than half you health, with no down-side whatsoever...seems a bit unfair no? If it isn't, why not let Tyrant attack after he use Ignore Pain, and Summoner attack after she use Deathly Shield?

I like how quick you are on disregarding counterproof and discussion there :)
Maybe due to lack of my explanation, but I'll clear that in the middle of my comment.
I chose empirical evidence as proof in my 1 comment, not only because its the king of evidence (with large enough sample) but also because it can be 'felt'/understood by anyone who plays the game almost instantly, unlike theorytising.
But ok, let it be theorytising as a bonus.

"An ability the shield you for more than half you health, with no down-side whatsoever". Really, 'whatsoever'? Thats either a bad (lazy) analysis or more probably you tailored it to defend your 'too OP' statement, because I imagine you do know that ES has:

1) Limited duration (8 sec)
2) Noninstant Cast/effect time
3) Can't cast on self - need a teammate in range
4) Limited Range, needs line of sight
5) Finicky targeting (esp. with the following 6)
6) Can be failed with full cooldown as a result (cast on dying teammate or already eldritched one)
7) Bloodweaver is a talent. You literary lose on quite a significant 'heal 20% hp on kill' or '+10%hp +stun.res.' or the sharpshooter talent.
(8) You will get focused as a result, potentially making you just waste the skill [before you die/run] on some random teammate who won't get hurt until 8 sec expire anyway.

(9) Theorytising without comparison to its alternative is quite useless. Its alternative is 'Leech+adequate talent' and that has an almost guaranteed strong and easy-to-use effect. With +hp talent thats 505 permanent hp difference +stun.res. with only restrictions - 'hit in line of sight with noninstant cast, not full hp (or you lose on 200 hp regain)'. How is that?



This sounds like a bad argument to me...you're basically saying "It doesn't happen to me, and/or it's has very little chance of happening...so let it be...".


Oh, I didn't explain myself well enough there, I was't talking about 'chances' [to fight against eldritch]. Those % are statistics, they are meant to show the choice of the players. And players choice easily shows us what is OP (or just more powerful) and what's not. Players clearly choose abduct over kidnap (no matter how much we theorytise about extra disable/carry time on kidnap) or as an another example - puncture over wingflap. Thats what i meant :) Most players choose Life leech over bloodweaver eldritch and that is the empirical evidence by itself that ES is not 'absurdely overpowered'.



I don't play ESL since it's region exclusive, so i can't say if there are many teams that use it or not...if they want to win, they should definitely consider using it though.

Ok, then I'll say it: None of the top teams in EU uses or used eldritch stacking as a winning strategy in ESL :)
I mentioned to look at ESL because it is an another empirical proof that ES stacking is not OP even at the top-skill-tier.


Truth is ES stacking can be easily counterplayed. The weakest point about it is the 8 sec duration and then the 'can't cast on self'. So you have to be mobile and pick your engagements/focus - Deceiver and Reaver are my choices for that.

@Raptros

"I believe this was only just recently changed within a few months" - :thumb::p This just shows how marginal the skill was before the bloodweaver talent got introduced, that people don't know how it actually worked (np with that). 'dat skill for dat achieve' was almost all its use, same as sacrifice. It pains to see someone asking to revert to that past :(

ParadoxicalOmen
2nd Dec 2015, 23:40
1) Limited duration (8 sec)


Stop everything...i didn't notice this...
Devs, pls close this thread...i withdraw my complaint.

But seriously...feel free to close it.
(btw I find your arguments horrible, but i just don't care anymore)

GenocidePete
6th Dec 2015, 14:11
lol. It's always fun to see Farnbeak hand someone their ass on a silver platter. The best part was the final self-own when Para acknowledged that he doesn't even know how the "absurdly overpowered" ability works.

#DunningKrugerEffect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect)

Raptr0s
8th Dec 2015, 21:45
@Farnbeak

Eh, the more I play, the less it bothers me.

I think bloodweaver, sacrifice and shielding are all okay, but I wouldn't object the shield reducing 90% to 95% damage, kinda like Ignore pain.

That way you can't completely salvage a dudes life when he's got less than 100hp and shielded.

Then again, humans aren't nearly as mobile as vampires, so eh, I'm kinda stuck on this one.