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Ygdrasel
18th Nov 2015, 23:11
I think the Psyonix went a bit OTT with the Tyrants as well (except for the ears). It's too late to change the skins they have, but since they need more variety anyway, perhaps a few more intelligent looking ones could be added or some slimmer ones too. It would have to stay with in the constraints of the evolved ones, as that's the most variation in hitbox size they can tolerate without effecting gameplay.


So I had an idea. As with most of mine, it sparked up while reading some other post. Rather than the usual call for devolved skins (though I do support that - just not fully devolved. Some bigger ears on a Turelim, more splitting apparent in Deceiver's limbs, etcetera...), how about skins drawn from the clan origins/backstories, the basic roles they played within Kain's empire - purchasable for a large amount of gold? Being unskilled in drawing work, I've had to settle for whatever pictorial examples I could dig up via Google...

Turelim Engineer/Blacksmith: Hard at work in the hazardous vicinity of the Smokestack, shaping stone and metal for usage in Nosgoth's conquest, the Turelim clan shields themselves in thick hardened leathers (http://elfleatherworks.com/wp-content/uploads/IMG_1091.jpg) and heavy goggles (http://img06.deviantart.net/2bbb/i/2012/175/b/4/steampunk_goggles_by_haraldr32-d54plky.jpg) to protect their eyes from fire and shrapnel.

Dumahim Samurai: The devoted warriors of Clan Dumahim don armor reminiscent of samurai and frightful masks to further terrorize their prey. (http://3dorigamiart.com/wp-content/uploads/album/114/Samurai_WIP_Shaded_by_Silesky-1000x761.jpg)

Razielim Mages: Having once been quite skilled in spellcraft, the Razielim now shroud their grotesque forms in heavy robes, of course leaving slits for their wings to slip through. (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2d/47/cc/2d47cc2f84e3a308c224268bca617e1c.jpg)

Melchahim Alchemists: Having been in charge of various alchemical experiments for reasons both for themselves and for the empire, the Melchahim carried vials and flasks of all manner of strange concoctions and otherworldly substances, themselves protected from contamination by heavy layers of clothing. (http://img03.deviantart.net/2483/i/2013/106/0/f/gazeraz_alchemist___concept_by_mizaeltengu-d61mpt7.jpg)

Zephonim Assassins: Having no reference for what sort of garb an assassin might don other than blending in with the target's own culture of dress, perhaps just some specially stylized armor with various killing implements (blades, needles...) strapped or holstered upon it. Maybe something vaguely reminiscent of ninja with the armor shaped to hide the face.

ParadoxicalOmen
19th Nov 2015, 01:43
The more skins the merrier :)

GrayPhilosophy
19th Nov 2015, 09:52
This sounds like a really cool idea!

I might just try and do some drawings of these, even though I also already promised someone else to draw my take on the devolved skins xD. Ah well! If I get the time I hope you won't mind me posting in here!

Vampmaster
19th Nov 2015, 10:18
I'm not sure about the goggles. I meant more intelligent (not geniuses, but not idiots) than Heritic was saying in the other thread, but they seem a bit too modern for the era. The leather apron looks fine, but it could use a belt or sash to break it up a bit. I'd suggest a tool belt, but people already complain about that machete that the scout can't use. Another way to make him seem less dumb, but still a warrior is to make him look like a military general or something. An era appropriate one of course.

I always though the Turelim in SR1 reminded me of minotaurs because of the noises they made and the way they'd charge at you, plus the Turel battle would have needed Raziel to play matador. So I looked up images a while ago and thought the armor on these guys at least looked a bit different from the skins we currently have.



I keep forgetting to mention that we need more skins themed around clan colours, so that means red fr Razielim, green for Turelim, Purple for Dumahim, aquamarine/blue for Rahabim, greenish grey for Zephonim and yellow for Melchahim.

This is an attempt at combining the SR1 and Nosgoth versions of a Dumahim. I'm sure the outfit itself still could work on a vampire that isn't devolved to that extent yet. With the vampires in this game still having mostly human shaped heads, perhaps a mask like the one Dumah himself ones could be included.

Ygdrasel
20th Nov 2015, 00:37
I'm not sure about the goggles. I meant more intelligent (not geniuses, but not idiots) than Heritic was saying in the other thread, but they seem a bit too modern for the era. The leather apron looks fine, but it could use a belt or sash to break it up a bit.

The pictures are just to give some sort of visual to the concept. I'm not suggesting that exact apron or anything. It'd definitely need something more to break it up. There were less steampunk-ish goggle options, probably should've used one...

Also this idea wasn't necessarily about them looking more intelligent - though they would just by virtue of being engineers - that's just the post that sparked the idea. This idea is just about giving them garb that matches their place in Kain's empire. Turelim were engineer and blacksmith types, Melchahim were into alchemy, Razielim liked the magic...Like maybe they couldn't produce enough battle armor for all the troops so these guys just take the field in their blacksmith vests, alchemist garb or whatever they'd wear in their day-to-day work. If this were Fallout, these would be pre-war suits.

That Dumahim is glorious. Probably what they'd look like if Soul Reaver were made today. (hi, Raina! :P)
And I fully support more proper usage of clan colors. Some of the evolved skins mix them up and it irritates me.

-Shiro-
20th Nov 2015, 13:38
I have the feeling that this game took another direction on vampires identities and created some interesting elements - of course, related to the lore of the franchise, somehow. I think it would be a bad idea to get some steampunk tyrants or samuraï dumahims though, and I absolutely never want to see mythologic creatures (I know you were talking about the armor, but posted the minotaurs anyway), zombies or "Hulk" stuff in this game.

To me, it's the same problem than with the "tyrants with christmas hat" suggestion, and I'm surprised this type of suggestions come from you guys.

Vampmaster
20th Nov 2015, 13:46
I have the feeling that this game took another direction on vampires identities and created some interesting elements - of course, related to the lore of the franchise, somehow. I think it would be a bad idea to get some steampunk tyrants or samuraï dumahims though, and I absolutely never want to see mythologic creatures (I know you were talking about the armor, but posted the minotaurs anyway), zombies or "Hulk" stuff in this game.

To me, it's the same problem than with the "tyrants with christmas hat" suggestion, and I'm surprised this type of suggestions come from you guys.

Daniel used the samurai to inspire his original design for the Dumahim in SR1. He said it many times. The pic Ygdrasel posted perhaps wasn't the best type to use. There are other types of samurai attire that are more organic looking. I'll try to find some.

The minotaur pictures I posted were for the armor reference. In no way did I suggest giving the Tyrants horns and fur. And vampires aren't mythology? They're a mythology that's only become well known over the last century, since Dracula was written in 1897, but the ideas of a blood sucking predator go back much further.

EDIT: Perhaps this looks a little better for a samurai design:

-Shiro-
20th Nov 2015, 15:15
I don't see clear japanese/samuraï related design in the Dumahim from SR1, sorry. I studied traditional and feodal japanese culture and really like it, but I don't think it's congruent with this game. Not like that, though. The gilded corpse summoner skin was already a risky move as it's really geisha/kunoïchi-like, but it's an awesome adaptation to the character (well done, designer !). Even if it's based on a samuraï design, I don't see the problem with the current available skins, especially the (d)evolved one. They're way more "samuraï" than the dumahims or even Dumah in SR1.

Yes, I was especially talking about hellenic mythology, and thought you would understand that directly ;) I understood you were talking about the armors only, as I said, but you posted the minautor with it, so I reacted to the picture itself. That said, there are some mythologic elements here and there, but they're not obvious. A nice example would be the Flayer's harness skin's helmet. As for the vampire myth sources, they're multiple and way older than Dracula, as you may know :)

Vampmaster
20th Nov 2015, 16:05
I don't see clear japanese/samuraï related design in the Dumahim from SR1, sorry. I studied traditional and feodal japanese culture and really like it, but I don't think it's congruent with this game. Not like that, though. The gilded corpse summoner skin was already a risky move as it's really geisha/kunoïchi-like, but it's an awesome adaptation to the character (well done, designer !). Even if it's based on a samuraï design, I don't see the problem with the current available skins, especially the (d)evolved one. They're way more "samuraï" than the dumahims or even Dumah in SR1.

Yes, I was especially talking about hellenic mythology, and thought you would understand that directly ;) I understood you were talking about the armors only, as I said, but you posted the minautor with it, so I reacted to the picture itself. That said, there are some mythologic elements here and there, but they're not obvious. A nice example would be the Flayer's harness skin's helmet. As for the vampire myth sources, they're multiple and way older than Dracula, as you may know :)

The low res that the PS1 had covers up details that would otherwise be much more apparent. Nosgoth should be seen as an opportunity to take what's known about the inspirations of SR1 and show them in their full glory. I'm not saying the Dumahim should be a perfect analogue to the Samurai any more than the Melchahim are 100% Egyptian (which the devs said were the inspiration).

The thing is though, those inspirations both inform and are informed by the cultures and lifestyles the clans were intended to have. If those ideas were abandoned once SR1 finished development, then that's an aspect of the lore and the team's creativity that's been lost.

Ygdrasel
21st Nov 2015, 01:41
I have the feeling that this game took another direction on vampires identities and created some interesting elements - of course, related to the lore of the franchise, somehow. I think it would be a bad idea to get some steampunk tyrants or samuraï dumahims though, and I absolutely never want to see mythologic creatures (I know you were talking about the armor, but posted the minotaurs anyway), zombies or "Hulk" stuff in this game.

To me, it's the same problem than with the "tyrants with christmas hat" suggestion, and I'm surprised this type of suggestions come from you guys.

Nobody suggested steampunk Tyrants. The image used for goggles was poorly chosen though.
This is more what a blacksmith would wear. (http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/a-blacksmith-restores-ship-fittings-maria-stenzel.jpg)

And this has...Utterly no connection at all to Christmas hat ideas. The problem with Christmas hat Tyrants is that it's absurd and nonsensical. This is...Really neither of those. o.o

Nor was it mentioned anywhere to involve myth beasts, zombies or the Hulk (Tyrant's musculature notwithstanding)...


And Vamp's examples on the samurai armor are a much better approximation of the idea. Though as he noted, it shouldn't be 100% exact. Just enough to show the inspiration, which I don't really get out of their current gear (well-crafted though it be). Really, I was mostly into the masks and/or faceguards. They've got a grotesque sense about them that pleases me, like facades of humanity, and an air of intimidation as well. It seems an appropriate level of sadistic mockery for the Dumahim to have worn such things in battle.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5e/39/f3/5e39f3e87806996f71815872803daff4.jpg
http://orig05.deviantart.net/8507/f/2012/125/e/3/e385be536e0624a1a354d0807f41cbe1-d4ylwxu.jpg

ParadoxicalOmen
21st Nov 2015, 11:58
[/THUMB]


This reminds of that idea of vampires having melee weapons.
Would be so cool if, along with the samurai inspired skins, the Dumahim also had a sword :worship:

-Shiro-
21st Nov 2015, 13:06
Nobody suggested steampunk Tyrants. The image used for goggles was poorly chosen though.
This is more what a blacksmith would wear. (http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/a-blacksmith-restores-ship-fittings-maria-stenzel.jpg)

And this has...Utterly no connection at all to Christmas hat ideas. The problem with Christmas hat Tyrants is that it's absurd and nonsensical. This is...Really neither of those. o.o

Nor was it mentioned anywhere to involve myth beasts, zombies or the Hulk (Tyrant's musculature notwithstanding)...


And Vamp's examples on the samurai armor are a much better approximation of the idea. Though as he noted, it shouldn't be 100% exact. Just enough to show the inspiration, which I don't really get out of their current gear (well-crafted though it be). Really, I was mostly into the masks and/or faceguards. They've got a grotesque sense about them that pleases me, like facades of humanity, and an air of intimidation as well. It seems an appropriate level of sadistic mockery for the Dumahim to have worn such things in battle.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5e/39/f3/5e39f3e87806996f71815872803daff4.jpg
http://orig05.deviantart.net/8507/f/2012/125/e/3/e385be536e0624a1a354d0807f41cbe1-d4ylwxu.jpg

Yes, these masks are called menpô (mempo or mengu), and I'm totally for it :)

Oh I can assure you that some zombie/hulk etc... tyrants have been suggested a while ago, probably in the thread about the female tyrant or something like that. And the link with the christmas hat tyrant ? Look... You suggested some yoroi for the dumahim, and someone already suggested to give him a sword... It goes like that. some ideas call other ideas until it goes ridiculous, or at least inappropriate. Blacksmith tyrant with googles ? "Yes, let's give him a mechanical arm and maybe makes him smoke a huge cigar as well !" You get the idea...

I respect your ideas though, I just think it's too distant from the direction they took with the characters. Tyrants are warriors, more like spartans. If they go blacksmiths (and I know part of them are), wouldn't it be more related to eras/universes such as skyrim ? The googles associated with the apron makes him look steampunk, and a too samuraï-ish armor for the reaver would be inappropriate, that's all I said ;)

Ygdrasel
21st Nov 2015, 21:44
Blacksmith tyrant with googles ? "Yes, let's give him a mechanical arm and maybe makes him smoke a huge cigar as well !" You get the idea...

I respect your ideas though, I just think it's too distant from the direction they took with the characters. Tyrants are warriors, more like spartans. If they go blacksmiths (and I know part of them are), wouldn't it be more related to eras/universes such as skyrim ? The googles associated with the apron makes him look steampunk, and a too samuraï-ish armor for the reaver would be inappropriate, that's all I said ;)


Well now, that's just a huge leap. :P

And if the goggles draw too many to a steampunk conclusion (frankly, I don't get it. Not all goggles are steampunk.), they can be thrown out. Just some manner of blacksmith garb is all that's needed, specifics aren't set in stone.

And too samurai-ish might look off, sure. That's where design discretion comes into play.
As long as they still get the masks though, whatever.

And I do still love the image of Sentinels shrouded in mage robes.



Would be so cool if, along with the samurai inspired skins, the Dumahim also had a sword :worship:

Given their gross club hands in SR1, I always pictured them with maces of some sort. But yes, melee weapons need to be a thing. :D

calypso-694
22nd Nov 2015, 04:11
this all sounds awesome.

they do kinda have like origin skins I guess already though.

Turelim have a smithing and gladiator lifestyle and some skins reflect that

dumahim were warriors and most of their skins have their clan color AND promote their warrior samurai status. especially their evolved armor.

Zephonim are the same. assasins and mentalists...they are just creppy. I think the default fledge skin shows their assassin spy type the best

razielim not so much

I wouldn't mind more devolved skins but I know im not the only one.

im praying for just fully HD skins of their SR1 selves. seeing a fully devoled zephonim would be amazing but I know it wont happen. so anyting even more close to that would be great.

and the razielim with their giant dragon bat thing would be AMAZING

GrayPhilosophy
22nd Nov 2015, 12:53
I made a thing!

Like I said, I'm gonna draw these. First up is the Turelim blacksmith/engineer guy

http://i.imgur.com/GUUrr6Y.jpg (https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/patreon.posts/14347832977720005007.jpg)
click for full image

Personally, I'm not sure the goggles are working for it. It might be the way they're drawn, maybe I'm just not very good at blacksmiths. Either way, is it something like this you had in mind?

Caring less about style and more about getting ***** done, this guy has donned a thick protective apron with a chain shirt underneath for working in the forge, along with some rudimentary armour plating for spontaneous ass-kicking.

I can't help but feel that the vampires in general have a more ceremonial approach to combat though. It seems like all their outfits are fairly stylish, suggesting that they care about looking good when tearing heads off.

Next up will probably be Dumahim "Samurai"

Vampmaster
22nd Nov 2015, 14:02
I made a thing!

Like I said, I'm gonna draw these. First up is the Turelim blacksmith/engineer guy

http://i.imgur.com/GUUrr6Y.jpg (https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/patreon.posts/14347832977720005007.jpg)
click for full image

Personally, I'm not sure the goggles are working for it. It might be the way they're drawn, maybe I'm just not very good at blacksmiths. Either way, is it something like this you had in mind?

Caring less about style and more about getting ***** done, this guy has donned a thick protective apron with a chain shirt underneath for working in the forge, along with some rudimentary armour plating for spontaneous ass-kicking.

I can't help but feel that the vampires in general have a more ceremonial approach to combat though. It seems like all their outfits are fairly stylish, suggesting that they care about looking good when tearing heads off.

Next up will probably be Dumahim "Samurai"

I love it! Only changes I'd make are, lose the goggles, make the ears a bit larger (not as much as evolved) and perhaps add a couple of Turelim symbols on the apron. That would be perfect, IMO.

lucinvampire
22nd Nov 2015, 17:23
http://i.imgur.com/GUUrr6Y.jpg (https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/patreon.posts/14347832977720005007.jpg)


AWESOME :thumb: ...can't wait to see the others :D

Ygdrasel
25th Nov 2015, 09:01
I made a thing!

Like I said, I'm gonna draw these. First up is the Turelim blacksmith/engineer guy

http://i.imgur.com/GUUrr6Y.jpg (https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/patreon.posts/14347832977720005007.jpg)
click for full image

Personally, I'm not sure the goggles are working for it. It might be the way they're drawn, maybe I'm just not very good at blacksmiths. Either way, is it something like this you had in mind?

Caring less about style and more about getting ***** done, this guy has donned a thick protective apron with a chain shirt underneath for working in the forge, along with some rudimentary armour plating for spontaneous ass-kicking.

I can't help but feel that the vampires in general have a more ceremonial approach to combat though. It seems like all their outfits are fairly stylish, suggesting that they care about looking good when tearing heads off.

Next up will probably be Dumahim "Samurai"

Awesome! :thumb:

Yeah, seeing it drawn out, the goggles...Eh, I dunno. I'm not totally put off but I can see the issue some might have.

And yeah, no doubt the vamps are all vain monsters even in wartime but as I noted to Vamp up there someplace, the idea here wasn't that they had a choice and went with this stuff. It's that they just didn't have enough materials, resources and/or time to outfit every last troop in the fancier stuff - because after all, they've been funneling resources into a civil war already and never expected the current one.

So some just get to make due. Turelim would've kept up engineering work in downtime, hence their gear. Dumahim would've kept their skills honed and armor shiny, being real efficient killer types, so their gear is still pretty combat-ready but probably a bit cruder. Melchahim would've been doing their alchemy thing, Razielim working on magics, Zephonim being Kain's hitmen or capturers or what-have-you.

These were either the first to war (rushed out, fancy uniform be damned) or the last (no inventory left for 'em).

Though for the Razielim who wear no armor per se, I guess the explanation would just be that shrouds cover their grossness while still being kinda spooky. Vanity and shame at their disfigurement, blended with the need to still frighten the cattle.

Vampmaster
25th Nov 2015, 13:05
Awesome! :thumb:

Yeah, seeing it drawn out, the goggles...Eh, I dunno. I'm not totally put off but I can see the issue some might have.

And yeah, no doubt the vamps are all vain monsters even in wartime but as I noted to Vamp up there someplace, the idea here wasn't that they had a choice and went with this stuff. It's that they just didn't have enough materials, resources and/or time to outfit every last troop in the fancier stuff - because after all, they've been funneling resources into a civil war already and never expected the current one.

I'm not even concerned about how pretty the armor is. The Turelim are a no frills warrior clan. They don't care about how they look, since they're living in a smokey dark industrial area anyway. The Razielim are the ones known as the most beautiful, Dumah wants to look important, but still a warrior and Zephon wants to look as frightening as possible, and Melchiah overcompensates for his scarred and rotting flesh. Rahab, I'm not sure where to place.

My concern about the goggles was that I wasn't sure whether glasses would have been invented at the time. There are a couple of arguments for the goggles though. One is that the Turelim were going blind because of some combination of their eyes being less useful in their territory and their devolution. The other is that Daniel mentioned the movie The City of Lost Children as a reference for the empire at it's peak. Pics of that look kind of steampunk, so maybe the vampires had better tech than we thought.

Ygdrasel
26th Nov 2015, 02:08
I'm not even concerned about how pretty the armor is. The Turelim are a no frills warrior clan. They don't care about how they look, since they're living in a smokey dark industrial area anyway. The Razielim are the ones known as the most beautiful, Dumah wants to look important, but still a warrior and Zephon wants to look as frightening as possible, and Melchiah overcompensates for his scarred and rotting flesh. Rahab, I'm not sure where to place.

My concern about the goggles was that I wasn't sure whether glasses would have been invented at the time. There are a couple of arguments for the goggles though. One is that the Turelim were going blind because of some combination of their eyes being less useful in their territory and their devolution. The other is that Daniel mentioned the movie The City of Lost Children as a reference for the empire at it's peak. Pics of that look kind of steampunk, so maybe the vampires had better tech than we thought.

Well, if we're talking about the chronology of invention, I'm not sure there's much canon to go on there. I vaguely recall some BO2 models looking like they wore some kinda eyewear perched on their heads but my memory's not too sharp on those details.

Glasses aren't terribly advanced though when one considers the mechanisms that make the block puzzles operate in Zephon's hive, or the Smokestack, Melchiah's grinder...They're just protective lenses, after all. I never considered Turelim blindness, actually, just the need to protect their eyes from heat and possible metal fragments given their work. So I never thought "glasses" as in vision enhancement, just "eye shields".

Vampmaster
27th Nov 2015, 13:14
You know what would look good on a Tyrant? Something like this:


I originally thought of something like the Tyrant from Resident Evil 2 way back when I heard what the Turelim would be called, but decided against it because it looked too modern and would be hard to disassociate from that game. However after I saw Tywin's coat in the image above, I realised that it's actually a more apt version of this:


It's something that a big guy like the Tyrant could pull off, but still *very* authoritive, which it something the Turelim in Nosgoth need to be.

Raptr0s
28th Nov 2015, 04:22
I'd love to see some skins based off the devolved creatures the vampires became like in SR1

I know it'd be outta place, but it'd be so cool playing as some kind of bloodthirsty abomination.

Oh, and let me play as a Sluagh :D

Ygdrasel
28th Nov 2015, 08:17
Oh, and let me play as a Sluagh :D

No. :D

@Vamp: I like that. Tywin Tyrants FTW.

GrayPhilosophy
1st Dec 2015, 16:11
Slow update, apologies.

Dumahim "Samurai"
http://i.imgur.com/xEz5pg8.jpg (http://pre07.deviantart.net/6e98/th/pre/f/2015/335/b/1/dumahim_samurai_by_gray_philosophy-d9io68h.jpg)
(click for full image)

Not sure wtf I was doing with the wrist and shin guards, but I tried making it visibly reminiscent of a samurai armour, with mask and a couple of tributes to the glorious evolved dumahim form. For intimidation purposes and such. I would've loved to make it a full face mask, but I figured I had to leave the mouth open for feeding.


Something something Tyrant drawing

I love it! Only changes I'd make are, lose the goggles, make the ears a bit larger (not as much as evolved) and perhaps add a couple of Turelim symbols on the apron. That would be perfect, IMO.

Ask and you shall recieve!

Alternate Turelim engineer
http://i.imgur.com/notLOgd.jpg (http://pre03.deviantart.net/ce74/th/pre/f/2015/335/1/a/turelim_engineer_by_gray_philosophy-d9io6kf.jpg)
(click for full image)

This time without goggles, larger ears and an added clan symbol on the apron.

Vampmaster
1st Dec 2015, 16:38
Alternate Turelim engineer
http://i.imgur.com/notLOgd.jpg (http://pre03.deviantart.net/ce74/th/pre/f/2015/335/1/a/turelim_engineer_by_gray_philosophy-d9io6kf.jpg)
(click for full image)

This time without goggles, larger ears and an added clan symbol on the apron.

The head is perfect! This is how all the Tyrants should have looked from the beginning! I'm probably being really nitpicky at this point, but perhaps the symbol would look better either larger with two mirror imaged versions or smaller (about half the size) and higher up where a pin/badge would be.


Slow update, apologies.

Dumahim "Samurai"
http://i.imgur.com/xEz5pg8.jpg (http://pre07.deviantart.net/6e98/th/pre/f/2015/335/b/1/dumahim_samurai_by_gray_philosophy-d9io68h.jpg)
(click for full image)

Not sure wtf I was doing with the wrist and shin guards, but I tried making it visibly reminiscent of a samurai armour, with mask and a couple of tributes to the glorious evolved dumahim form. For intimidation purposes and such. I would've loved to make it a full face mask, but I figured I had to leave the mouth open for feeding.

The Samurai Dumahim mostly looks great, but it could do with being a bit more distinct from the evolved skin. Maybe do something different with the shoulder guards and have the mask look a bit less like the evolved one. Have a look at the one Dumah himself wore and maybe some Oni masks. Daniel mentioned the latter a couple of times on his forum.

EDIT: Sorry if you already addressed a couple of those points in you comments. I skim read and mostly just glanced over the pictures.

GrayPhilosophy
1st Dec 2015, 17:32
The head is perfect! This is how all the Tyrants should have looked from the beginning! I'm probably being really nitpicky at this point, but perhaps the symbol would look better either larger with two mirror imaged versions or smaller (about half the size) and higher up where a pin/badge would be.

Thanks a lot!
I fear erasing and redrawing the symbol at this point would end up smudging the pencil too much, so perhaps for another drawing sometime. I see what you mean though :)



The Samurai Dumahim mostly looks great, but it could do with being a bit more distinct from the evolved skin. Maybe do something different with the shoulder guards and have the mask look a bit less like the evolved one. Have a look at the one Dumah himself wore and maybe some Oni masks. Daniel mentioned the latter a couple of times on his forum.

EDIT: Sorry if you already addressed a couple of those points in you comments. I skim read and mostly just glanced over the pictures.

I could definitely make the mask look more demonic (oni) rather than being a reflection of the evolved dumahim. But what did you have in mind for the shoulder guards? :)

Vampmaster
1st Dec 2015, 17:53
Thanks a lot!
I fear erasing and redrawing the symbol at this point would end up smudging the pencil too much, so perhaps for another drawing sometime. I see what you mean though :)




I could definitely make the mask look more demonic (oni) rather than being a reflection of the evolved dumahim. But what did you have in mind for the shoulder guards? :)

I didn't have anything in particular in mind for the shoulder guards, but having them be a face is too similar to the evolved skins, IMO. There's always the type of shoulder guard they wore in SR1 as an option. I saw a really good one a while ago where the SR1 ones had been reshaped to fit better on a Nosgoth type model, but I can't remember where. (Maybe it was the ones on the SR1 models on Dreamcast that looked like they'd fit.) Or perhaps having them be skulls would be different enough.

EDIT: Actually, go for simplistic. Use the type of shoulder guards that green guy has in the image I posted on the previous page. The one with the engraved symbols.

Ygdrasel
1st Dec 2015, 21:29
The Samurai Dumahim mostly looks great, but it could do with being a bit more distinct from the evolved skin. Maybe do something different with the shoulder guards and have the mask look a bit less like the evolved one. Have a look at the one Dumah himself wore and maybe some Oni masks. Daniel mentioned the latter a couple of times on his forum.

The evolved one has a mask? Huh...
Something of an Oni could look nice. Or something mirroring Dumah, yes.



@Gray: Love it. The bigger ears on that Tyrant are perfect, exactly what the default should have been since alpha. Is the shoulder guard supposed to call to mind the devolved Dumahim with their crazy straw tongues? Great as that is, it does create some weirdness that they'd have apparently predicted their futures. :P

I'd suggest maybe they engraved the metal with patterns of screaming cattle (human faces) but that degree of sadism is probably more Zephonim territory...

Vampmaster
1st Dec 2015, 21:51
The evolved one has a mask? Huh...
Something of an Oni could look nice. Or something mirroring Dumah, yes.



@Gray: Love it. The bigger ears on that Tyrant are perfect, exactly what the default should have been since alpha. Is the shoulder guard supposed to call to mind the devolved Dumahim with their crazy straw tongues? Great as that is, it does create some weirdness that they'd have apparently predicted their futures. :P

I'd suggest maybe they engraved the metal with patterns of screaming cattle (human faces) but that degree of sadism is probably more Zephonim territory...

No, but the mask looked like it was meant to represent an evolved one. He shouldn't look like he's trying to dress up as his big brother.

Ygdrasel
1st Dec 2015, 22:01
No, but the mask looked like it was meant to represent an evolved one. He shouldn't look like he's trying to dress up as his big brother.

The Zephonim looked to Zephon's evolved traits like the splitting face as a sign of superiority and their later masks (evolved skin) reflect that perception. So at least design-wise, there's precedent enough that the Dumahim might seek to reflect their higher-evolved brethren. But for this particular skin, yeah, it shouldn't look like a dress-up affair. The idea should be terror more than mimicry, maybe a bit demonic (in the general sense of unnatural and frightening [as Oni masks were] not specifically Nosgoth demons).

Raptr0s
3rd Dec 2015, 23:16
What about wraith skins?

Y'know how Raziel was a wraith? A resurrected vampire with vengeance as it's main drive?

How cool would it be to play as a decrepit, withered old Vampire?

Well, I guess it wouldn't make sense, because you couldn't really kill it... and that wraiths have ungodly strength.

Vampmaster
3rd Dec 2015, 23:57
What about wraith skins?

Y'know how Raziel was a wraith? A resurrected vampire with vengeance as it's main drive?

How cool would it be to play as a decrepit, withered old Vampire?

Well, I guess it wouldn't make sense, because you couldn't really kill it... and that wraiths have ungodly strength.

I'd actually like to see that as it's own class if they choose not to stop at six. Some of the Razielim that were killed off centuries ago soon after Raziel might have been in spectral long enough to become wraiths. Or I suppose the Melcahim could work too since the underworld is there forte.

Ygdrasel
4th Dec 2015, 20:56
What about wraith skins?

Y'know how Raziel was a wraith? A resurrected vampire with vengeance as it's main drive?

How cool would it be to play as a decrepit, withered old Vampire?

Well, I guess it wouldn't make sense, because you couldn't really kill it... and that wraiths have ungodly strength.

By wraith, I'm guessing you mean the Revived Vampires - which Raziel was not. That'd basically be a default skin with blue particle effects or something unless they put their own twist on it. Certainly an idea but it's not really relevant to this topic. Though, that does give me an idea...

Kootkha
5th Dec 2015, 07:45
I'm not sure about the goggles. I meant more intelligent (not geniuses, but not idiots) than Heritic was saying in the other thread, but they seem a bit too modern for the era. Another way to make him seem less dumb, but still a warrior is to make him look like a military general or something. An era appropriate one of course.


But this era is like a far future for most games in LoK series, exсept SR1 . This events is going even after BO2 with rebuilded Sarafan Order at Meridian with all their technologies, righ? Just look at how it appears in BO2 , with all this electricity, mechanics, circuit breakers and different machinery . Yes, most of it was lost after Order was defeated, but I doubt that all was lost. Even so , years passed after this, doubtly without any technical progress, at least they have gunpowder now. Not without purpose all those platemail traditionall armor called "Centuries-old" . Not only bcz centuries pass, but it's also become outdated, giving a way to a more modern armor styles , that more suits all this fights with guns, explosives and automatic weapons.

Raptr0s
8th Dec 2015, 21:47
@Ygdrasel

Raziel wasn't a revived vampire wraith?

What exactly was he, then?

Ygdrasel
8th Dec 2015, 22:03
@Ygdrasel

Raziel wasn't a revived vampire wraith?

What exactly was he, then?

He was something else entirely. A 'wraith' in the general sense of a spectral creature - the Sluagh, Shades and Archons are all wraiths too - but not the same thing as the vampire wraiths or their revived selves.

Sluagh and other spectral fauna could not enter the material realm. Vampire wraiths could only enter back through their own bodies (and had no sanity left for vengeance). Raziel kept his mind intact, was capable of manifesting in material form through sheer concentrated will (in SR2, via portals) or else by entering any available corpse, vampire or otherwise, and willing its matter to morph so as to reflect his own visage (in Defiance). He was beyond all of them.

Raptr0s
8th Dec 2015, 22:08
So essentially, not even an evolved wraith, he was his own being.

Neat, didn't know that.

Vampmaster
9th Dec 2015, 00:05
Where was it said the wraiths were insane? Stronger vampires like Lieutenants either maintain their physical form better or eventually learn to. I think the main difference between Raziel and someone like Dumah was the fact that Raz had no body to return to and that the EG had latched onto him. Dumah was technically a wraith and had the same sort of abilities. Melchiah could shift to spectral too.

Vampmaster
9th Dec 2015, 00:06
Where was it said the wraiths were insane? Stronger vampires like Lieutenants either maintain their physical form better or eventually learn to. I think the main difference between Raziel and someone like Dumah was the fact that Raz had no body to return to and that the EG had latched onto him. Dumah was technically a wraith and had the same sort of abilities. Melchiah could shift to spectral too.

I'd rather *revived* wraiths be their own class if it ever becomes feasible to add more after the Rahabim.

Ygdrasel
9th Dec 2015, 00:33
Where was it said the wraiths were insane?

It may not have been explicitly said but it's suggested a fair bit. They seem to have become mindless hungry vermin as much as the Sluagh. Also, there's Raziel's implication that, if he were trapped in the spectral realm long enough, he'd lose his mind and join the archons in their mindless soul-munching ways.

Of course, by SR's era, all vampires (patriarchs aside) wraith or otherwise are in a rather feral state. Even in better days though, I'd imagine that prolonged time in spectral - enough to adapt their vampiric hunger to the new plane - would render them just as feral and mad.

Melchiah could phase through, due to his tenuous attachment to immortality, but never traveled entirely there as far as we know. And he never lingered even in phase.

I presume Dumah, being greater than the clan members he created and of high ambition, maintained himself by sheer power and stubborn will - and also, possibly, by focusing upon learning that little energy trick of his. A unique case. The mind can endure a great deal so long as it has a sufficient something upon which to cling. Raziel endured the agony and isolation of the Abyss for at least five-hundred years and came out sane on the other end - distraught and grumpy, but sane.

Kootkha
9th Dec 2015, 02:50
I don't remember where I read that, mb it's completly wrong, but it seems believable to me.

Vampires that for some reason didn't wen't through the wheel after their death , or those ones who didn't feed for a very long time becoming to weak to sustain their physical form, but unable to die - becoming a wraith. Their overwhelming bloothurst makes them completely insane and ruin their personality , in time they shift into spectral world replacing by a thurst for souls to devour.
Kain somehow knew this, and he needed a faithful and dedicated "man" under his comand with an ability to devour souls to make a some kind of purification rite. He also knew, that a vampire with a strong will, strong enough to save his personality won't be completely insane as other wraith. And when Raziel showed him his evolutional progress , Kain finally decided to make his move.

Gugulug5000
9th Dec 2015, 05:00
I'd actually like to see that as it's own class if they choose not to stop at six. Some of the Razielim that were killed off centuries ago soon after Raziel might have been in spectral long enough to become wraiths. Or I suppose the Melcahim could work too since the underworld is there forte.

I LOVE the idea of a Razielim wraith class. Maybe this thread isn't the best one to go into details, but I would really enjoy it if the vampires realized that they were having so many casualties in this war that they were forced to revive whatever dead Razielim they could to maintain an aerial advantage. The whole concept of a portion of Raziel's clan being wraiths is just too good to pass up (since he's a wraith and everything). Plus we would get to see mostly human Razielim in action since they weren't starved for blood like the Sentinels.

As for whether or not vampire wraiths would be feral upon revival, I think it's vague enough to go either way. Dumah was strong yes, and it's implied that souls that are in the spectral realm go feral eventually, but if they were Razielim that were killed shortly after Raziel's execution then they've only been dead for a couple hundred years. Maybe their mental capacities are still intact enough to make them resist turning feral in the spectral realm long enough to be revived.

Fantastic idea. Make it happen Psyonix.

Ygdrasel
9th Dec 2015, 05:15
I don't remember where I read that, mb it's completly wrong, but it seems believable to me.

Vampires that for some reason didn't wen't through the wheel after their death , or those ones who didn't feed for a very long time becoming to weak to sustain their physical form, but unable to die - becoming a wraith. Their overwhelming bloothurst makes them completely insane and ruin their personality , in time they shift into spectral world replacing by a thurst for souls to devour.
Kain somehow knew this, and he needed a faithful and dedicated "man" under his comand with an ability to devour souls to make a some kind of purification rite. He also knew, that a vampire with a strong will, strong enough to save his personality won't be completely insane as other wraith. And when Raziel showed him his evolutional progress , Kain finally decided to make his move.

He could have iced Dumah if all he needed was a strong-willed vampire. He executed Raziel because his wings were a trait of the Ancients and presumed a sign of their prophecy, and because he knew what Raziel was destined to be - the spirit of the Soul Reaver, which allows him to become a free agent (no preset destiny) for Kain to manipulate to his ends. His plan can't work if it's anyone other than Raziel.

(Though I suppose the real reason is because history says the Soul Reaver exists, and so it must be created...Kain always kills Raziel and Raziel's fallen form is always consumed by the Reaver - until Kain changes the course, and even then it still happens later by Raziel's will.)

And a vampire would never become too weak to sustain their form. As long as they weren't killed, they'd keep going. Even the Melchahim kept going, and they were rotting upon their very bones.

GrayPhilosophy
11th Jan 2016, 21:29
[casts ressurect on thread]

I'm still alive! Holidays have been....unproductive.

Next one was Razielim sorcerer, so here it is
http://i.imgur.com/pJnfH8A.jpg (https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/patreon.posts/3493153386687548153.jpg)
(click for full image)

I know you wrote heavy robes in the flavour text, but I figured I had to make it somewhat light for the sake of easier flight. Even though Razielim are strong, loose cloth creates a hell of a lot of wind resistance.



And then, I made a few much-requested changes to the Dumahim Samurai :P
http://i.imgur.com/MxBaRrl.jpg (https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/patreon.posts/1717105894744264876.jpg)
(click for full image)

Vampmaster
11th Jan 2016, 22:16
[casts ressurect on thread]

I'm still alive! Holidays have been....unproductive.

Next one was Razielim sorcerer, so here it is
http://i.imgur.com/pJnfH8A.jpg (https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/patreon.posts/3493153386687548153.jpg)
(click for full image)

I know you wrote heavy robes in the flavour text, but I figured I had to make it somewhat light for the sake of easier flight. Even though Razielim are strong, loose cloth creates a hell of a lot of wind resistance.



And then, I made a few much-requested changes to the Dumahim Samurai :P
http://i.imgur.com/MxBaRrl.jpg (https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/patreon.posts/1717105894744264876.jpg)
(click for full image)

OMG, yes! Totally the roles Daniel described for thosde clans! The mask on the Dumahim is much closer to what I had in mind. These are exactly the sort of skins I want to see in the game. And once you've done all the clans, it would be great to see coloured versions of these designs.

GrayPhilosophy
11th Jan 2016, 22:23
OMG, yes! Totally the roles Daniel described for thosde clans! The mask on the Dumahim is much closer to what I had in mind. These are exactly the sort of skins I want to see in the game. And once you've done all the clans, it would be great to see coloured versions of these designs.

I'll see what I can do :D

Vampmaster
11th Jan 2016, 23:30
I'll see what I can do :D

Might as well wait until you have a sketch of each clan first though. The Rahabim are tough, since "special forces" only brings to mind modern things. Maybe see how the regular skins for that class turn out before attempting that one, and see if Daniel can elaborate a bit more. Perhaps leave them until last and do Zephonim and Melchahim first.

enkaku-silence-
12th Jan 2016, 00:20
Alternate Turelim engineer
http://i.imgur.com/notLOgd.jpg (http://pre03.deviantart.net/ce74/th/pre/f/2015/335/1/a/turelim_engineer_by_gray_philosophy-d9io6kf.jpg)
(click for full image)

This time without goggles, larger ears and an added clan symbol on the apron.

How about having the goggles either on his forehead or hanging around his neck?

Edit:
Or try to make them bigger. I feel like the glasses on your first attempt were too small.
Google search for "steampunk goggles" for some reference material.

Vampmaster
12th Jan 2016, 11:25
How about having the goggles either on his forehead or hanging around his neck?

Edit:
Or try to make them bigger. I feel like the glasses on your first attempt were too small.
Google search for "steampunk goggles" for some reference material.

Is this what you mean? Because nope...

Well, mostly nope.

I'm not sure this game really fits this game. The repeater bows have been called that, but they're not high-tech-yet-low-tech, since those have existed in real life since the 1400s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow#History Personally, I think the goggles look too modern and make the Turelim look more like a welder than a blacksmith. On the other hand Daniel has mentioned the movie City of Lost Children as a reference for SR1 and that does look steam punk, so it's hard to say.

enkaku-silence-
12th Jan 2016, 16:14
Is this what you mean? Because nope...

I know it's hard to believe, but by saying "google 'steampunk goggles'" I did indeed not mean "google 'the riddick'".

Vampmaster
12th Jan 2016, 16:47
I know it's hard to believe, but by saying "google 'steampunk goggles'" I did indeed not mean "google 'the riddick'".

I understood your instruction and I chose to disobey it because I had a point to illustrate, which was that IMO, goggles on the Tyrant would look very much like that whether they are steampunk or not. I did backtrack a little bit with my comment "mostly nope" and my comment about the City of Lost Children, which is considered a steampunk movie. I'm still reluctant, although less so after consideration on Daniel's comments. I've lost the link to those, but I can find them for you again later if you want as long as you lose the snark.

enkaku-silence-
12th Jan 2016, 21:30
I understood your instruction and I chose to disobey it because I had a point to illustrate, which was that IMO, goggles on the Tyrant would look very much like that whether they are steampunk or not. I did backtrack a little bit with my comment "mostly nope" and my comment about the City of Lost Children, which is considered a steampunk movie. I'm still reluctant, although less so after consideration on Daniel's comments. I've lost the link to those, but I can find them for you again later if you want as long as you lose the snark.

Okay, put my snark to sleep.
I also wasn't rather talking about the steampunk style for the Tyrant's goggles. What I wanted to say is that in the original design with the goggles, they seemed so very small in comparison to the eyes. The search for "steampunk goggles" just gave the best result, since just searching for goggles gives you pictures of ski goggles and I certainly don't want to see that on the Tyrant.

Psyonix_Ryan
12th Jan 2016, 22:09
I know it's hard to believe, but by saying "google 'steampunk goggles'" I did indeed not mean "google 'the riddick'".

I'm not sure you didn't mean that, but the outcome is fantastic either way :)

calypso-694
13th Jan 2016, 02:54
Welding goggles...they are welding goggles. Riddick uses a form of them as well as that style of them being "steampunk" for reasons I guess. They were used and still are today but not as much as the big welding face plate helmets normally. Because ya know GIANT FLAMES IN YOUR FACE and all.

Vampmaster
13th Jan 2016, 10:08
Welding goggles...they are welding goggles. Riddick uses a form of them as well as that style of them being "steampunk" for reasons I guess. They were used and still are today but not as much as the big welding face plate helmets normally. Because ya know GIANT FLAMES IN YOUR FACE and all.

If you had read the rest of the thread before suggesting I didn't know what goggles were for, you might have noticed I was arguing against that level of technology in the first place. Here's one very good reason for that:
"During the Middle Ages, the art of blacksmithing was developed and many items of iron were produced which were welded by hammering. It was not until the 19th century that welding, as we know it today was invented."
http://www.weldinginfocenter.com/history/his_01.html

enkaku-silence-
13th Jan 2016, 10:17
Welding goggles...they are welding goggles.

Oh thank you very much. English is not my mother tongue.
I just thought about steampunk because SR and especially BO2 have some steampunky elements, though I would certainly not categorize it as steampunk.

Thinking about that, it doesn't make sense for a blacksmith to wear modern welding gear right?
Since forging doesn't produce many sparks or bright light.
Though a Tyrant with a welding mask would be dope, it would hide his beloved grumpy face though.

Vampmaster
13th Jan 2016, 10:22
Since forging doesn't produce many sparks or bright light.

Modern forging might, but the simpler tools used in earlier times would have produced much less of those and safety gear would also have been rudimentary. Defiantly the leather apron and gloves though.

I mean, all the really hot flames would be inside a furnace with just a small space for reaching in with a pair of tongs.

Ygdrasel
14th Jan 2016, 00:30
[casts ressurect on thread]

I'm still alive! Holidays have been....unproductive.

Next one was Razielim sorcerer, so here it is
http://i.imgur.com/pJnfH8A.jpg (https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/patreon.posts/3493153386687548153.jpg)
(click for full image)

I know you wrote heavy robes in the flavour text, but I figured I had to make it somewhat light for the sake of easier flight. Even though Razielim are strong, loose cloth creates a hell of a lot of wind resistance.



And then, I made a few much-requested changes to the Dumahim Samurai :P
http://i.imgur.com/MxBaRrl.jpg (https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/patreon.posts/1717105894744264876.jpg)
(click for full image)


...

When I first had this idea, I kept a fully-written-but-unsubmitted thread creation page open for hours, internally nitpicking away and agitated by the probability of awful feedback. Almost scrapped the whole thing.

When I posted the thread, I anticipated many views with maybe one, two posts of "meh" at best - exactly the sort of dejecting experience that kept me frozen on the creation page.

All worth it. These designs are a greater realization of my mental vision than I could have ever hoped for.
I haven't been so completely in awe since the Deceiver's evolved skin was revealed. ...Can I show these to Daniel?

Psyonix: Pretty please? I'll stop complaining about the chests for six months.



Thinking about that, it doesn't make sense for a blacksmith to wear modern welding gear right?
Since forging doesn't produce many sparks or bright light.

I'd just figured with their vision degenerating anyway, they'd want to be cautious of any hazards at all. And maybe the goggles are crafted somehow to even help their vision in the most heavily-eclipsed areas near to the 'stack. Frankly, it looks great without the goggles anyway though.

GrayPhilosophy
16th Jan 2016, 17:09
...

When I first had this idea, I kept a fully-written-but-unsubmitted thread creation page open for hours, internally nitpicking away and agitated by the probability of awful feedback. Almost scrapped the whole thing.

When I posted the thread, I anticipated many views with maybe one, two posts of "meh" at best - exactly the sort of dejecting experience that kept me frozen on the creation page.

All worth it. These designs are a greater realization of my mental vision than I could have ever hoped for.
I haven't been so completely in awe since the Deceiver's evolved skin was revealed. ...Can I show these to Daniel?

Psyonix: Pretty please? I'll stop complaining about the chests for six months.



I'm glad I've been able to help realizing your mental vision. You proposed some great Ideas and I like being able to contribute where I can. I found myself wearing a silly grin at the end of reading through this reply, really, the kind words are highly motivating! :D

And please by all means, if you have contact to Daniel you're absolutely more than welcome to show him these!

Vampmaster
16th Jan 2016, 17:28
I'm glad I've been able to help realizing your mental vision. You proposed some great Ideas and I like being able to contribute where I can. I found myself wearing a silly grin at the end of reading through this reply, really, the kind words are highly motivating! :D

And please by all means, if you have contact to Daniel you're absolutely more than welcome to show him these!

I already tagged Daniel, aka SpectralJin one of your pics. He tends to respond faster on Facebook though. You should join the Nosgothic Realm group if you're on Facebook, as he comments there fairly often.

I showed Nosgoths concept artist Jason Newhouse as well on his deviantart page.

Ygdrasel
17th Jan 2016, 00:54
I found myself wearing a silly grin at the end of reading through this reply

My expression was something between a silly grin and mouth-agape awe. :P

And in regard to the others (Zeph and Melch) if you were planning to try them: Apologies for the lack of any good reference material. Every attempt to find something assassin-y just turned up Assassins' Creed, and there just isn't much in the way of alchemists (which mostly turned up Fullmetal Alchemist...Oi). Though if you ever played Blood Omen, the image in my head that largely informed the Melchahim idea was Anarcrothe's alchemy lab in Dark Eden:

http://www.thelostworlds.net/TDP/Images/18-Dark_Eden-03A-Story_Speculation-01-06-Blood_Omen-Dark_Eden-06.JPG
http://lparchive.org/Legacy-of-Kain-Blood-Omen/Update%205/Kain_0271.jpg

Just all that scary looking equipment and concoctions, mad science vibes. :D

GrayPhilosophy
18th Jan 2016, 10:10
And in regard to the others (Zeph and Melch) if you were planning to try them: Apologies for the lack of any good reference material. Every attempt to find something assassin-y just turned up Assassins' Creed, and there just isn't much in the way of alchemists (which mostly turned up Fullmetal Alchemist...Oi). Though if you ever played Blood Omen, the image in my head that largely informed the Melchahim idea was Anarcrothe's alchemy lab in Dark Eden:

- picture snip -

Just all that scary looking equipment and concoctions, mad science vibes. :D

Oh absolutely, and it's quite alright. I know what you mean about assassins though, almost seems like the Assassin's Creed fanchise has monopolised that word by now, but I'm sure I'll think of something.

I'm actually working on the Melchahim alchemist at the moment, trying to borrow inspiration from your reference picture but with added alchemical reagents and flasks and such :)

Vampmaster
18th Jan 2016, 11:52
Oh absolutely, and it's quite alright. I know what you mean about assassins though, almost seems like the Assassin's Creed fanchise has monopolised that word by now, but I'm sure I'll think of something.

I'm actually working on the Melchahim alchemist at the moment, trying to borrow inspiration from your reference picture but with added alchemical reagents and flasks and such :)

The Melchahim are blood manipulators too, so maybe look into forms of alchemy that make use of blood.

EDIT:
Actually, I can't find where Daniel said alchemists. I could only find this:
http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=162&p=486
http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=565&p=1936#p1936

EDIT 2: Oh, right. It looks like in the quotes above, it was the Zephonim who were the alchemists. Melchahim were Scientists, Necromancers, Blood manipulators. I would assume that the Melchahim more specifically would be biological scientists, considering their affliction.

GrayPhilosophy
18th Jan 2016, 15:17
- snip -

EDIT 2: Oh, right. It looks like in the quotes above, it was the Zephonim who were the alchemists. Melchahim were Scientists, Necromancers, Blood manipulators. I would assume that the Melchahim more specifically would be biological scientists, considering their affliction.

Oh dear, I might have to make a few edits then xD

Vampmaster
18th Jan 2016, 18:10
Oh dear, I might have to make a few edits then xD

Perhaps something like Victor Frankenstein's outfit here could work for a Melchahim scientist?



Maybe it would be a good idea to speak to Daniel about the level of technology before doing too much with the scientist. Maybe he disagrees with me about the goggles as the whole City of Lost Children thing he mentioned would actually look pretty good as long as it's era appropriate.

Ygdrasel
18th Jan 2016, 20:02
The Melchahim are blood manipulators too, so maybe look into forms of alchemy that make use of blood.

EDIT:
Actually, I can't find where Daniel said alchemists. I could only find this:

To clarify, I didn't go off Daniel's word for every case. With all due respect to him, I permitted that Nosgoth, being officially a part of lore in an existing series entry, should hold precedence over mere forum posts if any conflict occurred between the two.

Nosgoth's backstory on the Red Sisters heavily paints the Melchahim as delving into alchemy in their pursuit of stemming their decay as well as their labs being the original source of the liquid fire used in Alchemist weaponry.


Either by accident or sabotage, one group of alchemists from Clan Melchahim committed a grave error, inadvertently poisoning a batch of prime Human breeding stock in an effort to better preserve their fragile undead skins. Their Lieutenant-patriarch, Melchiah, had been raised last and therefore received the poorest portion of Kain's dark gift. Despite his immortality, Melchiah’s soul could not sustain the flesh, an affliction passed on to his Vampire offspring who had already begun to show some signs of the underlying decay that would come to blight them in the far future. Rather than waiting to suffer the wrath of their lord, the errant alchemists fled to the far desert canyons of the southern hinterlands.

Willfully isolated in these labyrinthine badlands...After setting up a new laboratory in secret, they desperately strove to make some new and potent discovery with which to buy their way back into favour...


And as per Daniel, the Zephonim were indeed spies and assassins as well. Besides that, alchemists are technically a form of scientist (a debunked form in reality but fiction is more favorable) so it still fits the Melchahim.

But blood manipulation can absolutely be a part of alchemy though. Blood is matter, after all, and alchemy is all about manipulations of matter. I'm sure Gray will reconcile things quite well. :)

(Also, it's not terribly relevant but I would argue the 'biological scientist' point. The Melchahim seem quite focused on more magical/mystical means to their ends with their digging into the spectral world, while the Zephonim are all into deliberately shaping their evolution through physical force, alteration of the flesh, anatomy and such.)

Vampmaster
18th Jan 2016, 20:17
To clarify, I didn't go off Daniel's word for this particular case. Nosgoth's backstory on the Red Sisters heavily paints the Melchahim as delving into alchemy in their pursuit of stemming their decay, as well as their labs being the original source of the liquid fire used in Alchemist weaponry.

Well, I hold the older lore in higher regard than the new. Attempts to subvert the inspirations that made the series so interesting in the first place are not just contradictory, but disrespectful as well. It's almost like a person taking away a gifts one person has given us just because they think they have something better. There's sentimental value there.

That came across more dramatic than I intended, so no offense. I tried to think of a better way to put it. There is usually a small amount of leeway, but changes should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.

GrayPhilosophy
18th Jan 2016, 20:27
So as far as I understand it seems both the Melchahim and Zephonim were dabbling in alchemy, just for different reasons and likely different fields, yes? Melchahim being the more sciency and perhaps magically oriented alchemists for self-preservative and necromantic purposes. And Zephonim being the more biological and poison-making type of alchemists. Or..?

Ygdrasel
18th Jan 2016, 20:45
So as far as I understand it seems both the Melchahim and Zephonim were dabbling in alchemy, just for different reasons and likely different fields, yes? Melchahim being the more sciency and perhaps magically oriented alchemists for self-preservative and necromantic purposes. And Zephonim being the more biological and poison-making type of alchemists. Or..?

I'd imagine the Melchahim experimented with various alchemical concoctions to preserve themselves (ala the various liquids and such in Anarcrothe's lab) before turning to the more magical areas while the Zephonim were more of a flesh-crafty Frankenstein-ish sort - and they have some plague-inducing skills in-game so yeah, poisons are likely too.


@Vamp: Well, that's just it: Cabuco notes the Zephonim as spies and assassins (and yes, alchemists, but I'm making a point here...) and the Melchahim as scientists and blood manipulators (which can both fall under alchemy). It's not really change, it's just extrapolation.

Vampmaster
18th Jan 2016, 20:58
So as far as I understand it seems both the Melchahim and Zephonim were dabbling in alchemy, just for different reasons and likely different fields, yes? Melchahim being the more sciency and perhaps magically oriented alchemists for self-preservative and necromantic purposes. And Zephonim being the more biological and poison-making type of alchemists. Or..?

Depends which set of info you you're basing the ideas around. Crystal Dynamics's inspirations, Psyonix's ideas or extrapolations from the community. Daniel never used alchemy to refer to Melchahim and since there is already a human and Zephonim alchemist, then scientest should be treated as distinct. Humans are less educated, so maybe they don't make as much distinction between science and magic. Also, Laderic from the blogs was a bit of a renegade, off doing his own thing seperate from the majority of his clan.

Ygdrasel
18th Jan 2016, 21:18
Depends which set of info you you're basing the ideas around. Crystal Dynamics's inspirations, Psyonix's ideas or extrapolations from the community. Daniel never used alchemy to refer to Melchahim and since there is already a human and Zephonim alchemist, then scientest should be treated as distinct. Humans are less educated, so maybe they don't make as much distinction between science and magic. Also, Laderic from the blogs was a bit of a renegade, off doing his own thing seperate from the majority of his clan.

There isn't already a Zephonim alchemist though. Daniel said they were spies, assassins, alchemists.
Nosgoth followed the 'spies and assassins' take, and that's the backstory they fleshed out. That's where Daniel and Psyonix met. There is no conflict there between the two because both agree they were spies and assassins.

And Laderic was never hinted as being some renegade. He was a member of one group of alchemists within the clan - which suggests multiple groups, hinting that alchemy was a clan practice. His particular group botched an experiment and ruined the human supply used for it so they fled for fear of Melchiah's wrath. He's not "doing his own thing" because it's not his thing if there are multiple groups (as implied) within the clan doing it.

You're trying to adhere to the exact words Daniel used - I get that - but the problem is that he just listed a handful of single words. That's not enough by itself. Psyonix' ideas, inadvertently or otherwise form official fleshed-out backstories based on Daniel's terms, and that is enough.

On the one hand, "Daniel never used alchemy to refer to Melchahim". On the other, the words he DID use could be interpreted as alchemy anyway with no contradiction.
There's no reason not to use Psyonix' ideas because they align to the words Daniel chose anyway. Why violate either when you can adhere to both? The Melchahim can be scientists and blood manipulators in the course of alchemy. The Zephonim can be (and are already, according to both sources) spies and assassins.


Anyway. @Gray: I passed your designs to Daniel. :)

GrayPhilosophy
19th Jan 2016, 00:09
Anyway. @Gray: I passed your designs to Daniel. :)

Amazing! Do let me know what he says about them! :D

GrayPhilosophy
16th Feb 2016, 13:43
Pardon the delay again. Life has been busy :P

Melchahim Alchemist/scientist/whatever
http://i.imgur.com/ejZVGL8.jpg (http://img05.deviantart.net/dec0/i/2016/047/0/8/nosgoth_fanart___summoner_alchemist_by_gray_philosophy-d9rz0ax.jpg)
(click for full image)

An attempt was made. I'm not sure I feel I quite nailed this one as much as I'd wanted to. I tried incorporating both alchemist and general scientist elements. All the while trying to remain true to the Melchahim necromantic tendencies with their skin grafting and whatnot. But I fear it's led to not having a very clear theme.

Vampmaster
16th Feb 2016, 14:58
Pardon the delay again. Life has been busy :P

Melchahim Alchemist/scientist/whatever
http://i.imgur.com/ejZVGL8.jpg (http://img05.deviantart.net/dec0/i/2016/047/0/8/nosgoth_fanart___summoner_alchemist_by_gray_philosophy-d9rz0ax.jpg)
(click for full image)

An attempt was made. I'm not sure I feel I quite nailed this one as much as I'd wanted to. I tried incorporating both alchemist and general scientist elements. All the while trying to remain true to the Melchahim necromantic tendencies with their skin grafting and whatnot. But I fear it's led to not having a very clear theme.

I think Psyonix probably said alchemist, just because they though scientist sounded too modern or they just hadn't seen the comments Daniel made at the time. There is however, nothing to say that there weren't lots of roles with each clan even beyond the ones Daniel listed. I'd assume there were certain roles that each clan was especially renounced for, but that doesn't discount the fact that the clans are made up of individuals with their own personalities and particular skills. There could easily a few Melchahim who strayed from the crowd career-wise. It's not as if clan leaders wouldn't benefit from a a bit of diversity. Alchemist and Scientist should be separate things IMO, with the latter being the more predominant of the two. Ygdrasel has suggested that it's almost the same thing, but the fact that you had trouble blending the two themes shows that there is some distinction.

I think I misunderstood the point of this topic. The line of thinking I had in the comment Ygdrasel quoted in the OP was that Psyonix in their interpretation had drifted a little bit from the source material of the previous games. I mean they aren't very far off, but I thought these origin skins were an attempt to get back to the original concepts rather than reinforce the misconceptions. For that reason, I'd prefer to play down the alchemist, especially since there's already the Red Sisters for the humans and the other class we mentioned for the vampires.

If it sounds like I'm being overcritical of Psyonix's designs and lore ideas, that isn't my intention. As I said, they aren't that far off, but I was still hoping to see the older stuff represented too. I mean you could always have one skin for the scientist and another for the alchemist if it made it work better as a concept.

All in all, I like the monocle, the button up thing and the belt but I'm less sure about the hood and the thing with the Melchahim symbol on it. Maybe those could be split off into another skin. Scientist would have dissection tools on the belt and alchemist would have potions.

Ygdrasel
19th Feb 2016, 20:58
Pardon the delay again. Life has been busy :P

Melchahim Alchemist/scientist/whatever
http://i.imgur.com/ejZVGL8.jpg (http://img05.deviantart.net/dec0/i/2016/047/0/8/nosgoth_fanart___summoner_alchemist_by_gray_philosophy-d9rz0ax.jpg)
(click for full image)

An attempt was made. I'm not sure I feel I quite nailed this one as much as I'd wanted to. I tried incorporating both alchemist and general scientist elements. All the while trying to remain true to the Melchahim necromantic tendencies with their skin grafting and whatnot. But I fear it's led to not having a very clear theme.

I like it. Is that some sort of gas mask draped around the neck? A nice touch. Like Vamp, not sure of the hood. Love the bifocal monocle, never would have thought of that. :D Theme-wise, I think I can clear it up: Mad science. Think Frankenstein, an evil Doc Brown, Dr. Moreau, those lunatic doctors from goofy 50s horror flicks. As long as he's got some sciencey glassware (vials, flasks, whatever) and syringes, I'd say that'll count for alchemy. (I'd also imagined a lot of self-experimentation. Maybe that mask is connected to some sort of tube-fed mechanism, infusing god knows what 'preserving' substance into their veins...)

Overall, it looks very good but too...Clean? They're not just doing any old science but desperately striving to save themselves. That should push them to some awful measure. That labcoat's a good dress choice but too nice......No blood, no corrosive stuff spilled, not a button missing or even out of place...This gives off an impression of some sterile well-run laboratory. I'd imagined their lab being more of an improv affair, probably set up in a crypt some place, real savage...


@Vamp: I'd imagine they'd do some dissection either way to test out potential solutions on the various internal bits. Can't just save the skin, after all. I'd actually envisioned bonesaws and syringes being common tools of their work, whether to open up test specimens for experimentation or harvest materials (given the goal of their work, stemming their own rot, I imagine the work was very much involved with bodily materials). They might even have used such things on themselves, shaping bone and flesh to various likings.