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Raptr0s
10th Nov 2015, 19:32
Hey there guys,

Been playing Nosgoth for some time now, on and off here and there. I consider myself competent and just a few months back "got good" in the ways of how the game actually works.

But one thing I could never understand is why the Sentinel is the way he is.

In my opinion, everything about him is just... awful.

He's so... independent. It's stupid!

In a skilled players hands...

His main abilities hardly ever do less then 300 to 400, which can be used in tandem with his others, as I'm sure you all know.

Even before someone can get through the canned animation of standing up, he can have a whopping 400 up front damage from puncture already in motion to hit you. This attack takes barely more than a second to use, and hits multiple targets.

Everything he has does damage, aside from his one only utility, Sonic Screech, which nobody really uses.

Wing flap isn't too terribly annoying, as its needed to be used in a specific manner to get the most out of it.

Divebomb seems alright for the most part, but can be used in tandem with Abduct/Kidnap anyways.

Is there even a real reason to use kidnap anyways? Since when has abduct not done the job?

Airstrike just seems to unnecessary, especially since it can pretty much keep you fro landing.. ever and be used from behind cover completely.

Takeoff is one of his only real escapes, so why does it have to do damage? Is a stagger not enough? Really?

If that's not bad enough, since he can already fly, he can also take 20% less damage while flying, which is arguably one of the only times he's able to be hit reliably, that is, if you can hit him, being the fastest class and all..


The worst of it is his barbed claws. Really? Is this necessary? Does he need an additional 80 damage per swing? It's almost as if he doesn't do enough damage as is...

I don't know, I've always felt like the Sentinel has too many tools. I feel like he's unbelievably safe and easy to play. As a matter of fact, he was one of the first Vampires I mained a long time ago. I loved the idea of flying and being in Raziels clan.

But over time, I just grew bored of him and moved on. After I saw other people playing him, I sat and though, goddamn, is this what I've been doing?

Anyways, I've always thought to myself, "I must be missing something here. Maybe there's a reason he's like this", but I honestly can't think of it.

If anyone could shed some light on to why the Sentinel is the way he is, I'd appreciate it.

Because right now, I think he's such a copout.

ParadoxicalOmen
10th Nov 2015, 21:49
You posted in the wrong place, should be in "feedback", not "guides"

And i'll just assume you played in matches against Sentinel, and no one one you're team knew how to counter them.
Sent's are pretty easy to spot, a good scout should take care of him (especially if use warbow)...or you could use prophet's shield to prevent fall damage.

His main ability does good damage, but it's not so easy to hit. Also he has one of few main abilities that are easy to cancel, basically if you do 300 damage he will drop who he abducted (a nearby scout with swiftbow has potential to negate all abducts...).
So it's really about your team being aware and helping you when you get abducted.

Puncture is way better than Wing Flap, this should be revised...mainly i think Flap needs a buff.
To me Puncture is fine as it is...

Takeoff doesn't do much damage, and you can still kill Sent...it's much different from Shadow Step or Evasion, imo...

The barbed ability is pretty good, but it doesn't stack...so it's not such a bad thing honestly, i never felt this was over powered.

Sent isn't safe and easy to play, he is a gamble...if you get bola'd or warbow'd you're dead. He really exposes himself when he attacks, notice that he rarely initiates an attack...the idea usually is to get humans distracted so you (sentinel) can get in safely.

Wolf_the_Legend
10th Nov 2015, 22:40
Sent's are pretty easy to spot, a good scout should take care of him (especially if use warbow)
scouts get the moste time focused, so they have other stuff to do ...


or you could use prophet's shield to prevent fall damage.
witch sentinel wouldn't pick up the prophet^^


His main ability does good damage, but it's not so easy to hit.
well if u miss you do a 180 and/or bounce of a wall and grab him then ... time to do a grab should be reduced.


Also he has one of few main abilities that are easy to cancel, basically if you do 300 damage he will drop who he abducted
sentis just grab a guy and fly away from the human team, behind corners, rly far and fast because they are not pulling up after the grab. your team just cant shoot him.


(a nearby scout with swiftbow has potential to negate all abducts...).
as mentiont scouts are in fight 9/10


So it's really about your team being aware and helping you when you get abducted.
true, but class to broken so they can basicly do nothing.


To me Puncture is fine as it is... it does more dmg than kick and has a hitrate of 99% ... how is that fine ... come on ... it could be auto aim and it wouldn't change much ...



The barbed ability is pretty good, but it doesn't stack...so it's not such a bad thing honestly, i never felt this was over powered. only one hit of that takes away 7,6% of ur HP ... reaver only has 5% atk speed buff ... tyrant has only 5% dmg buff.


Sent isn't safe and easy to play, he is a gamble...if you get bola'd or warbow'd you're dead.
thats the case for nearly every vamp and sentys are the fastest of them all aka hardest to hit.

Ygdrasel
11th Nov 2015, 04:50
A) The Prophet's shield is not a self-defense spell. It is cast upon whoever is kidnapped, thus preventing fall damage.

B) There is no reason a Scout (or any other, really) can't focus fire a Sentinel to negate an abduction.

C) "I KNOW IT'S MY TEAM'S JOB TO BE AWARE AND HELPFUL BUT THEY CAN'T BECAUSE SENTINEL IS BROKEN"...No. If they can't help, it's because they're failing as teammates.

D) Sentinels are hardest to hit? Okay. And? They fly. Would you expect them to be easy targets? Reaver and Tyrant can negate a bola with their own defensive/evasive abilities. Summoner can toss up Deathly Shield. The Sentinel has no escape. Even Take-Off is just a matter of the enemy readjusting aim upwards. It is absolutely NOT the case for every vamp that a bola or warbow spells death. Most have easy escape mechanisms.

GrayPhilosophy
11th Nov 2015, 10:13
This again? Sentinels are easy to counter as long as you have just 2 competent people on your team, even if there are multiple sentinels.

Sentinels "are the way they are" to single targets out and quickly deal a lot of damage, at the expense of proper escape abilities or defenses. Being fast and evasive in the air is their defense.

For playing against sentinels, I find that scouts are outdated. Sure a good scout can be a royal pain in the arse, but now they're just fun to chase around with their pursuit skill instead of being a serious threat. Hex shot and eldritch shield are the greatest immediate defenses against them. It's hard to hit a flying sentinel, so eldritch shield is probably the easier choice if you're playing against an annoying sentinel.
Other than that, bolas, warbows or shield charges (seriously it works wonders) are all very good options to break their abduct or kidnap. Once they're on the ground they're pretty much a secured kill unless the rest of your team is doing it wrong. Also, puncture can be dodged. Run towards them and try to dodge through them. It's not succesful 100% of the time, but it worked for me on multiple occations.

Finally, human/vampire imbalance is hardly an issue unless it's outrageously bad (which this isn't), since you'll have a chance to get revenge in the second round.

LegacyOfKayn
11th Nov 2015, 10:55
Puncture is way better than Wing Flap, this should be revised...mainly i think Flap needs a buff.
To me Puncture is fine as it is...

Sure,let's give sents even more dmg than they already have,good plan:))

Raptors from what i understand ur quite a new player in nosgoth but u already noticed that sent is better than most classes:)
There r alot of ppl complaining about sents and to be honest no1 can rlly tell u why "they r the way they r"
All u'll hear on this topic r the ppl who r sick of it and want it nerfed (as it should be) AND the ppl who main it and will keep saying it's fine.
The truth is the sent needs the next nerfs:
1.Less abduct/kidnap time so that they won't get that 180 turn around.
2.Barded Talons dmg reduce (or even removed).
3.Less stagger duration after abduct / kidnap fall so that u can actually dodge that puncture.
4.Smaller hitbox for Puncture cuz that abillity is unmissable (unless ur rlly bad) AND a range reduce for it as well cuz it hits like twice the distance of the sentinel's wings.

Da_Wolv
11th Nov 2015, 14:09
Another complaint threat from someone that hasn't played the game at a high enough level yet to know how well balanced the sentinel actually is:

YES - he is powerful as hell, but he dies quickly when he misses an attack or gets caught in a bola or warbow shot.
I believe there is a disconect in mid-level game, where Sentinel players become apt enough to fly fast and easily grab the static, non-moving, non-evasive standart human players, but once those human players learn basic movement and evasion skills, the sentinels are just fine.

LegacyOfKayn
11th Nov 2015, 14:33
Every vamp class dies on the spot if caught by a cc cd at high lvl (maybe not tyrant with ign pain but that's ok since he's the tank) so that's not an excuse for all the problems sent has.

Ygdrasel
12th Nov 2015, 07:32
All u'll hear on this topic r the ppl who r sick of it and want it nerfed (as it should be) AND the ppl who main it and will keep saying it's fine.

You're forgetting everyone else. :rolleyes: I main Deceiver (if anything) and the Sentinel is still fine. Let's not go painting obviously false pictures here, yeah? 'The only people who think Sentinel shouldn't be nerfed are people who only play Sentinel!', honestly...

"All the problems sent has" appears to be 'He deals a lot of damage and my team can't fight him!' - Well, he's supposed to deal a lot of damage. That is the intended function, high reward for risk. Your team failing isn't a fault of the Sentinel. Talons can be dodged. Kidnap can be dodged. Both rather easily. And that's not even getting into the myriad ways to disable or interrupt them. Puncture can also be dodged as Gray has noted. The kidnap-puncture combo? I've been hit by that maybe four times since alpha. You know they're going to follow up with Puncture after dropping you. Take some defensive or evasive action. Works every time on my end.

Really, the blindly flailing 180 roundabouts with Kidnap are the only ongoing issue.

Raptr0s
12th Nov 2015, 08:11
So what about his whole "skimming" spiel?

You think it's fine for him to skim the ground out of sight, drop you for damage (even at damn near ground level) turn around and puncture you before your animation finishes?

Everything about him is pure offense. He's such a solo character it's not even funny.

I've played against bronzes and I've played against eternals. Plenty of them.

But it just seems to me that the sentinel has a little too much offense. Not by much, but he does.

I mean, puncture is a secondary ability that does 400 in less than 2 seconds. Half of the reavers main abilities do less than that and thats because they're mobile.

Why does puncture attack so fast, hit multiple people and still be a secondary attack?

I don't know, I just think his moves work too well with one another too easily.

Other vampires have to make their moves work with other people or themselves at greater efforts, while the Sentinel can do pretty much whatever he wants.

In pretty much any instance, I hardly see Sens playing for the team, rather making them team play from them.

I also see a lot of APA setups, which is Abduct, Puncture, Airstrike. Almost every Sen I see has it.

You can occasionally switch airstrike for takeoff, but other than that, there's no Sentinel variety.

And I swear to god Puncture dead-angles shields. Many-a-time have I fully blocked punctures but still received 400 damage. Could be lag, but thats the attack I see dropped blocks the most with.

Sure you can counter sentinels, but do they really need all of that offense? Skimming, barbed talons... ect...

To me, they just have too many tools which enable them to play just so safe.

I haven't even gotten into the whole, "flying indoors slamming into walls" thing.

For gods sake, why can Sentinels just fly into walls no issues? If walls made them stop flying, man, that'd be something to see.

Ygdrasel
12th Nov 2015, 08:28
For gods sake, why can Sentinels just fly into walls no issues? If walls made them stop flying, man, that'd be something to see.

The maps are full of walls. You'd cripple flight entirely. That'd be awful to see.
Yes, it's unrealistic - so is everything else in the game.
Why can they fly into walls without dropping? Reasonable game design.
Slowed flight while against a wall is the most that could be done without ruining flight.

The Sentinel is supposed to be pure offense. The lack of defense is the risk trade-off for his damage potential. He deals in heavy attack potential while having no defense. That's the Sentinel. You're essentially asking for the entire design of the class to be thrown out and redone. That's simply not going to happen.

And the only playing safe he can really do is flying well.

A Sentinel who plays by himself is a Sentinel who dies.
Don't know where this idea that he's some god-tier solo class is coming from.
And any Sent I've seen who "makes the team play from them" is promptly shot into oblivion as the team abandons them.

As for "I just think his moves work too well with one another too easily."...Well, great. That's wonderful. Every class should strive for synergy within their own arsenal.



The Sentinel does need variety though. Many have been asking and hoping for an alternative to the snatch-and-grab mechanics of Kidnap/Abduct. Me, I favor fire magic.

LegacyOfKayn
12th Nov 2015, 09:53
You're forgetting everyone else. :rolleyes: I main Deceiver (if anything) and the Sentinel is still fine. Let's not go painting obviously false pictures here, yeah? 'The only people who think Sentinel shouldn't be nerfed are people who only play Sentinel!', honestly...

"All the problems sent has" appears to be 'He deals a lot of damage and my team can't fight him!' - Well, he's supposed to deal a lot of damage. That is the intended function, high reward for risk. Your team failing isn't a fault of the Sentinel. Talons can be dodged. Kidnap can be dodged. Both rather easily. And that's not even getting into the myriad ways to disable or interrupt them. Puncture can also be dodged as Gray has noted. The kidnap-puncture combo? I've been hit by that maybe four times since alpha. You know they're going to follow up with Puncture after dropping you. Take some defensive or evasive action. Works every time on my end.

Really, the blindly flailing 180 roundabouts with Kidnap are the only ongoing issue.

Yeah i'm sure u do:)).U still don't get the point,most multiplayer games avoid adding a flying class simply bcuz it's a huge advantage over the other classes.I mean sure there r games like Warframe that have those...jetpacks or whatever but from what i hear every1 can have 1 of those and only in some specific game mode.
The abillity to fly already makes sentinel better than most vamps,and on top of that it's also the highes dmg dealer vamp?Yeah,totally fair.
And back to ur topic,"Really, the blindly flailing 180 roundabouts with Kidnap are the only ongoing issue.".That's the only issue?:))
So for u it's fine for a sentinel to hit twice the distance of his wings with puncture?How is that even logical.
About the talons part Wolf_the_Legend already explained it,i don't wanna repeat it,read his post.
And for the abduct-low drop-puncture part,u dodge that almost all the time? Then u only fought noob-ish sentinels OR u must be a real pro mate,care to tell us all how many hours do u have played? And if u do,pls add a link to ur steam acc,i don't wanna hear smth like (i have 3k hours) and no proof;).

ParadoxicalOmen
12th Nov 2015, 20:00
well if u miss you do a 180 and/or bounce of a wall and grab him then ... time to do a grab should be reduced.


Is 180 something you can actually do? I always thought this was a cheat, i was never able to reproduce these "miss and then 180 to grab" thing.


Another complaint threat from someone that hasn't played the game at a high enough level yet to know how well balanced the sentinel actually is:

pretty much, yeah

Raptr0s
12th Nov 2015, 20:55
The maps are full of walls. You'd cripple flight entirely. That'd be awful to see.
Yes, it's unrealistic - so is everything else in the game.
Why can they fly into walls without dropping? Reasonable game design.
Slowed flight while against a wall is the most that could be done without ruining flight.

The Sentinel is supposed to be pure offense. The lack of defense is the risk trade-off for his damage potential. He deals in heavy attack potential while having no defense. That's the Sentinel. You're essentially asking for the entire design of the class to be thrown out and redone. That's simply not going to happen.

And the only playing safe he can really do is flying well.

A Sentinel who plays by himself is a Sentinel who dies.
Don't know where this idea that he's some god-tier solo class is coming from.
And any Sent I've seen who "makes the team play from them" is promptly shot into oblivion as the team abandons them.

As for "I just think his moves work too well with one another too easily."...Well, great. That's wonderful. Every class should strive for synergy within their own arsenal.



The Sentinel does need variety though. Many have been asking and hoping for an alternative to the snatch-and-grab mechanics of Kidnap/Abduct. Me, I favor fire magic.

I'm not asking for the entire design to be redone, I don't know where you got that from.

Although I wouldn't mind a few of his aspects to be changed/modified/tweaked.

Like I said, I feel like his offense is too much, but only slightly.

I think puncture attacks too fast or does too much, I think skimming should be dealt with, and I think takeoff shouldn't really do damage, perhaps just a stun instead.

If puncture did a little less, that'd be okay, since it attacks fast and can hit multiple people. The only reason why most people don't use wing flap is probably because it's not always a guaranteed 300+ damage and that it's not often you find somebody on the edge of a drop-off. You have to have the right timing and positioning to get the most out of wing flap.

For puncture, you get more damage for significantly less effort, and I don't think that's good design.

Takeoff should just be an escape. Idk why it does damage. I think a stagger would be good enough as is.

Skimming, well, that's self-explanatory. In no way is it good design to kidnap/abduct someone, drag them across the ground, drop them from knee height (for damage too for whatever reason), and then puncture/wing flap/charged melee before their canned recovery animation even finishes. That's not good design. That's bad design.

I understand that Vampires have a slight edge in 1v1s and it's often easier to win a duel as a vampire, but completely shutting out a human with your own skills alone to me seems like a design oversight.

I get it, the Sen is mostly offense... but I think he's a little too offensive.

All I think is that some of his abilities should have a few tweaks is all.

And hitting walls would cripple flying? I dunno, it's a possibility, but I hardly, if ever, find myself running into walls whenever I'd fly.

SonixSquad
12th Nov 2015, 21:58
I think theres a bit of biased opinion from both sides in this thread.

Whilst I am not on the 'Nerf Sentinels 'cos they are overpowered' team, I am also not on the 'dodging Sentinels is easy' team either.
Both arguments are flawed IMHO and are not helping either way.

Those that are declaring that dodging Sentinels is easy, please post a video montage of your next 10 Sentinel dodges successful or not.
If you want to stop hearing about it, lead the way and show others how to position & dodge properly. And no don't do a tutorial vid, actual ingame footage is fine.

For those claiming to never be able to dodge Sentinel grabs, please post a montage of your next 10 Sentinel deaths (or successful dodges), obviously be prepared to have your montage commented on and reviewed.


Whilst I agree that Sentinels are dodgeable given that you are positioned correctly and not caught unaware, when playing versus good Sentinel players its tough and when in a pug if noone else changes class to counter with you, you are almost certainly doomed versus a semi decent Sentinel duo.

The only thing I would like to see tweaked is the stagger time after an abduct/kidnap drop. But only if it allows time to melee roll away from a puncture, otherwise theres no point.

Lastly, I just want to add that 9 times out of 10 when I am managing to evade Puncture, its because the Sentinel player is inexperienced. Things change as soon as they learn that low drop puncture combo.

Raptr0s
12th Nov 2015, 23:48
-snip-

I can agree with you for the most part, especially about dodging punctures as they are often hard to avoid, due to the Sens ability to turn his attacks and the reach of puncture itself.

And yeah, once they catch onto the Abduct/Kidnap puncture combo, it's a whole other ballpark.

These are reasons why I think the Sen needs a little bit of a tweak. Nothing too heavy though.