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View Full Version : What is wrong with your patches?



enkaku-silence-
31st Oct 2015, 14:29
This is something that bothers me for a while now.

First off, your patches are always like 1gb big, while the game is 6gb. This means we always have to download 17% of the game for minor "fixes".

Why the quotation marks? Because second off it seems like the patches always seem to bring back old bugs that were fixed before and I don't exactly know why that is.
And this is not about fixes which probably influence each other and bring bugs back.

I play the game in German and the note about the remaining days was translated wrong in the beginning.
It was "x Tage verlassen" for "x days left", unfortunately "verlassen" means "leave" in the context of leaving a person or room, not in the context of "remaining".
Then it was changed to "x verbleibenden Tage" which is grammatically incorrect.
You finally got it right with the patch two weeks ago, but now with the patch yesterday it changed back to the previous, wrong version again.

Why is that?

Are there more than one version floating around in your offices and not every version is up to date? So when one thing is improved we get old bugs and mistakes back?
This probably sounds stupid, but it bothers me that bugs are fixed and then return after some patches, even though the fixed stuff seems to have nothing to do with those returning bugs.

KaininitePriestess
31st Oct 2015, 15:05
That's honestly part of what happens with software development. You don't always know what will break when you change something, it can have effects on something that it's not even associated with, so you make the change, test it, and then flail around a bit while you try and isolate that single line of code amongst MILLIONS that caused the glitch. Then rinse and repeat.

Probably the reason bugs keep coming back is that they're delicate systems that are effected by a lot of things at once. So when they make changes to things, even if they're DIFFERENT things, they come back all over again.

PencileyePirate
31st Oct 2015, 15:23
That's honestly part of what happens with software development. You don't always know what will break when you change something, it can have effects on something that it's not even associated with, so you make the change, test it, and then flail around a bit while you try and isolate that single line of code amongst MILLIONS that caused the glitch. Then rinse and repeat.

Probably the reason bugs keep coming back is that they're delicate systems that are effected by a lot of things at once. So when they make changes to things, even if they're DIFFERENT things, they come back all over again.

Uhm, no. Don't try to justify this or defend them on this point, because it can't be done. Several GB patches for even tiny hot-fixes indicates something is wrong with their build / patch process.

As for bugs coming back: sloppy developers. I'm not sure if they keep repeating the same mistakes or just accidentally merging broken code in from their revision control system, but repeatedly recurring bugs should be mitigated/prevented with proper testing. The fact that they aren't suggests that quality test systems (unit, integration, QA) are either not implemented, not working, or not being used.

KaininitePriestess
1st Nov 2015, 15:45
I will continue to defend them because I know development is hard as ****. Bugs happen, they fix them when they come up and insulting the devs isn't going to solve anything.

Also, as it's been mentioned many times before, we're in a beta. We ARE the quality control.

PencileyePirate
1st Nov 2015, 18:39
I will continue to defend them because I know development is hard as ****. Bugs happen, they fix them when they come up and insulting the devs isn't going to solve anything.

Also, as it's been mentioned many times before, we're in a beta. We ARE the quality control.

You do that, but I don't think you can justify your defense. Development is hard but there's also such a thing as doing it badly. They usually don't fix bugs when they come up ... I wouldn't be criticizing them if they did. Some bugs stick around for months upon months.

Btw, this game has been in "beta" for over 1.5 years; the only reason they're still calling it that is because they take so long to fix & implement things. Psyonix also claims to have a QA team, so no, we actually are not the quality control.

akr0nym
2nd Nov 2015, 08:00
I play the game in German and the note about the remaining days was translated wrong in the beginning.
It was "x Tage verlassen" for "x days left", unfortunately "verlassen" means "leave" in the context of leaving a person or room, not in the context of "remaining".
Then it was changed to "x verbleibenden Tage" which is grammatically incorrect.
You finally got it right with the patch two weeks ago, but now with the patch yesterday it changed back to the previous, wrong version again.

No offense, but don't you think there are more important things to fix than some translation errors?
:scratch: ;)

Sasha_Vykos
2nd Nov 2015, 08:14
patch problems are that generally after a patch the game get worse, many bugs are added, other old bugs come back and the old noscam files don't work anymore (and for a game that would like to eb an esport this is very bad). I think that at least the last one can be in some way fixed..most players dont care about noscam but its very usefull to watch your tournament matches and see mistakes and what went wrong.

KaininitePriestess
2nd Nov 2015, 17:26
You do that, but I don't think you can justify your defense. Development is hard but there's also such a thing as doing it badly. They usually don't fix bugs when they come up ... I wouldn't be criticizing them if they did. Some bugs stick around for months upon months.

Btw, this game has been in "beta" for over 1.5 years; the only reason they're still calling it that is because they take so long to fix & implement things. Psyonix also claims to have a QA team, so no, we actually are not the quality control.

Oh, I think my reasoning for my defense of the devs is plenty justification. You may disagree with me, but the great thing about opinions is just because someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't make them wrong. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because I honestly have no problem letting the devs do what needs to be done to fix the game when bugs come up, and I don't scream about how horrible they are when things glitch, because they're human. ;)

PencileyePirate
2nd Nov 2015, 18:13
Oh, I think my reasoning for my defense of the devs is plenty justification. You may disagree with me, but the great thing about opinions is just because someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't make them wrong. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because I honestly have no problem letting the devs do what needs to be done to fix the game when bugs come up, and I don't scream about how horrible they are when things glitch, because they're human. ;)

Of course you're welcome to your opinion, but saying "we are the quality control" is factually wrong.

Saying that "bugs happen, they fix them when they come up" is also factually wrong (because they don't.)

So by all means keep defending them, but I'm going to point out when you use false statements to do so. There are a number of ways for software developers to avoid the problems Nosgoth has encountered, so just saying "oh well software development is hard" is a cop out.

KaininitePriestess
2nd Nov 2015, 18:44
We are the Beta Testers. Beta Testers are there to work out the final kinks that the Devs fix. And the Devs have been fixing bugs when they can. It's a long process. If you choose to ignore the fact that they're doing it, that's your prerogative, but that doesn't make what I said wrong.

PencileyePirate
2nd Nov 2015, 20:56
We are the Beta Testers. Beta Testers are there to work out the final kinks that the Devs fix. And the Devs have been fixing bugs when they can. It's a long process. If you choose to ignore the fact that they're doing it, that's your prerogative, but that doesn't make what I said wrong.

Actually it does make you wrong. They don't fix them "when they come up," they fix them months later or not at all.

KaininitePriestess
2nd Nov 2015, 21:05
Actually it does make you wrong. They don't fix them "when they come up," they fix them months later or not at all.

Because we all know that fixing a glitch is just as easy as hitting that magic easy button, amirite?

Every patch they come out with, yes, there are bugs, but there are just as many, if not more, bugs that they've fixed. Just because they haven't fixed every bug instantly doesn't mean they're not doing them. So again, I'm not wrong. You just don't like my opinions and you never have.

There are times when I feel like the phrase "if you think you can do so much better, why don't you make your own game?" is pretty apt here. Seriously. This community has great fangames that are being made. Go add to them and prove you know so much more then the devs do.

With that being said, you're being openly antagonistic and insulting towards me, and I've had enough. I'm not going to play your games any longer, and if you feel like continuing this, go find a brick wall instead.

PencileyePirate
3rd Nov 2015, 00:11
Every patch they come out with, yes, there are bugs, but there are just as many, if not more, bugs that they've fixed. Just because they haven't fixed every bug instantly doesn't mean they're not doing them. So again, I'm not wrong. You just don't like my opinions and you never have.

There are times when I feel like the phrase "if you think you can do so much better, why don't you make your own game?" is pretty apt here. Seriously. This community has great fangames that are being made. Go add to them and prove you know so much more then the devs do.

With that being said, you're being openly antagonistic and insulting towards me, and I've had enough. I'm not going to play your games any longer, and if you feel like continuing this, go find a brick wall instead.

I have nothing against your opinions in general and I'm sorry you find me antagonistic / insulting. I didn't think you'd take this discussion personally. However I do find this particular opinion of yours aggravating and still believe much of your justification is wrong.

Yes software development is hard, yes the devs have been fixing bugs, but the frequency at which new bugs arise and old bugs return is all but proof that something is wrong with the development and QA processes.

Knockdown on bulwark is a perfect example of a bug that QA should have caught in seconds, but went unnoticed. Unit & regression tests can/should catch bugs that re-emerge after being fixed once (even if the bug's revival was caused by changing something different.) Other bugs are more subtle and certainly require time to diagnose and fix, but IMO that's still no excuse when they've been around for months and left unaddressed for several patches in a row. I shouldn't have to create my own game to earn an opinion on the matter.

I hope I've not been typing at a brick wall, and that you'll try to understand my perspective rather than taking it personally.

TheDreamcrusher
3rd Nov 2015, 02:23
I came to the same conclusion as PencileyPirate. There's sloppy updating being done and poor Q&A. The fact that the same bugs have been resurfacing time and time again means that there's not a lot of oversight on what builds are being updated and presented as the current version. As to why the patches are so big... I don't know. Could be art assets for future events going live.