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Ygdrasel
27th Oct 2015, 07:53
We've got a thread to vent aplenty over the perceived degradation of the game's aesthetic. So I'm gonna stomp and moan about the other crappily-handled side of things: The "flavor". I remarked upon this in said other thread - in this case, it was the new vague 'Matriarch of the Island' thing, but this criticism stands to be levied at any future lousiness as well - and was met with...An unfortunate (yet technically correct - the best kind of correct) response.


this isn't a Legacy of Kain game

Now...See...That. That right there. That is the problem. That is why it suffers. Everyone raised eyebrows when this game was announced but oh, Psyonix did assure that they care for the material. But how can that be true if they treat it as something separate from that material? Nobody's asking for a grand overarching epic here. Just...Some substance at all, yeah? Texture is worthless if it's boring texture. Like paper. Paper is a very boring texture.

Early on, my skepticism was quelled by the blogs. They weren't grand interwoven webs of lore but they were effort. I don't know who Eskandor is beyond being Razielim but I don't care - because everything else surrounding the name is interesting enough itself. It's just flavor text but it's delicious flavor text. This Matriarch thing? Tastes like watery instant oatmeal.

See, there are two kinds of flavor:

The skins and such are just Juicy Fruit. Flavor's there for an instant then gone. Nice while it lasted but nobody likes gum for the lasting flavor. They just need something, anything, to chew. "This armor is worn by Kain's imperial guard!" - Kain had an imperial guard. Cool. I'm satisfied.

But then comes actual added world material. Characters, locations, factions. Juicy Fruit won't cut it. This flavor has to be big, it has to last. The lore blogs on maps and classes are a great way to handle this. And if some bit of text mentions a Matriarch, well, I expect a meal.

I don't need to know about her per se - again, Eskandor is barely more than a name and satisfies fine - but I need to be interested in her presence, in what she has done within this world. Reading the Razielim blogs, I can picture hordes of mutated Razielim starving, screaming, madly digging out of the vault, scouting the bloodied leftovers of Coorhagen, reporting to the Dumahim, hearing the tale of Raziel's betrayal...

Reading the Crucible blog, I can envision the Smokestack, the slave mines, a scout in chains being led to a life of deadly servitude. I can see the marked Turelim having its meal interrupted. I can picture a grand breakout being staged. Do I know anything about Andris beyond a name? Not really. But I know he did something awesome.

These entries, despite being mere text, bring the world to life in my mind. Some pitiful nothing throwaway line about "Matriarch of the Islands"? I see nothing. I hear nothing. It gives me nothing and it satisfies nothing.


"DA STEALTH GUIZ WEAR DIS" lines for the Deceiver armor and things like that is fine. I don't need a whole grand treatise on why some Reavers prefer Nightstalker's Mail to Dumahim Platemail. (Though for the record, Nightstalker's Mail is the best and I will fight you over it.)

But addition of actual new content to the world - in this specific case, a character - needs effort. Even a small effort, hell, the Vanguard's backstory is basically just a fancified paraphrasing of "These guys fought like hell on an island then formed a big gang of convicts" - But again, it showed somebody, anybody caring for the material. And if nobody's going to care for the material, this may as well die and rot alongside Dead Sun. (And it may still earn that fate if this casino trend keeps up...But I digress.)

Psyonix: You want to tell a story about how this Matriarch empowered humans somehow? Okay. Tell me that story. Don't want to tell me a story? Don't tell me a story. But don't go hinting at a story then shut the book. That just sucks. Like the casino trend. But there I go digressing again.

CountEyokir
27th Oct 2015, 08:22
^^^ 110% agreed with absolutely everything said here

lucinvampire
27th Oct 2015, 13:37
SO MUCH THIS!!!!!!!

ParadoxicalOmen
28th Oct 2015, 02:08
Could someone clarify this?
I don't know what this "Matriarch" rant is about...tried searching the blog entries for anything related but haven't found anything.

What is this about? Is this some weapon/skin description?

GenFeelGood
28th Oct 2015, 06:14
I do agree with all of the above; but there is something I have been wanting to bring up and I don't mean to sound like a downer.

I have fun playing Nosgoth, I love the lore and it's insight into this era of Nosgoth's history; but ultimately I feel this game is geared more for competitive players and in my opinion that really isn't something you would consider most Legacy of Kain fans to be. I hope there is a true Legacy of Kain game planned for development and I do want Nosgoth to succeed; but part of me wonders how much of the Legacy of Kain fan base thats here will still be playing Nosgoth when that Legacy of Kain game arrives.

Heretic_13
28th Oct 2015, 06:50
I do agree with all of the above; but there is something I have been wanting to bring up and I don't mean to sound like a downer.

I have fun playing Nosgoth, I love the lore and it's insight into this era of Nosgoth's history; but ultimately I feel this game is geared more for competitive players and in my opinion that really isn't something you would consider most Legacy of Kain fans to be. I hope there is a true Legacy of Kain game planned for development and I do want Nosgoth to succeed; but part of me wonders how much of the Legacy of Kain fan base thats here will still be playing Nosgoth when that Legacy of Kain game arrives.

I`ll be honest here- if new LoK game surfaced, even "Dead Sun" i wouldn`t spend much time in Nosgoth lobby. I also like this game, and enjoy lore. But Nosgoth is steadily transforming in to action game, with emphasis on "actioin". And this action... well, it is nothing special. And sugarcoating it with new skins, or bunch of different abilities, that basically do the same thing, but cooldown time, or damage are different- and frankly i don`t care, because vampire abilities make the overpowered

CountEyokir
28th Oct 2015, 08:47
Could someone clarify this?
I don't know what this "Matriarch" rant is about...tried searching the blog entries for anything related but haven't found anything.

What is this about? Is this some weapon/skin description?


And there you have hit the nail upon the head. The 'matriach' is a throw away line used in the game itself to explain where the Auric skins came from. And that's literally just it. No lore post, no explanation, nothing. This is whats having a few of us in a tizzy. You really can't make throw away lines like that in this franchise because small 'flavour text' is what WoW and LoL is for, not the Legacy of Kain.



I do agree with all of the above; but there is something I have been wanting to bring up and I don't mean to sound like a downer.

I have fun playing Nosgoth, I love the lore and it's insight into this era of Nosgoth's history; but ultimately I feel this game is geared more for competitive players and in my opinion that really isn't something you would consider most Legacy of Kain fans to be. I hope there is a true Legacy of Kain game planned for development and I do want Nosgoth to succeed; but part of me wonders how much of the Legacy of Kain fan base that's here will still be playing Nosgoth when that Legacy of Kain game arrives.

The AAA games industry seems to have this massive blind spot where they think they need to turn franchises into shooters and FTP online multiplayers in order to have 'mass market' appeal. Of course the successes of things like Dark Souls and Skyrim have proven them wrong on a massive scale but, at least according to Jim Sterling, those in charge of deciding what projects get made only think three games exist - "Clash of Clans, Candy Crush and Call of Duty." And So we have Nosgoth, which does something nobody asked for with the Legacy of Kain franchise for seemingly no reason at all - in order to 'appeal to a wider audience' - this has never ever ever worked ever.
I see this demonstrated by the fact that while this game draws in new players, few if any of them know a thing about the larger LoK series or even want to know. They can actually get pretty aggressive if you try to tell them about it.
I think most LoK fans wouldn't give two shakes of a lambs tail for Nosgoth the moment a proper new LoK instalment was made. I might play it with some friends if they wanted to but I know where my priorities would lie. To be personally honest I think the line that Nosgoth will draw in more players interested in the LoK series to be inherently flawed, demonstrably incorrect and wishful thinking. If a proper LoK game came out it'd still only appeal to that niche audience and under normal circumstances, if the game was budgeted correctly that would be more then fine. But AAA development doesn't do that anymore. So much so that I wonder if it might be more productive to see if an Indi-developer can have a crack at the LoK franchise.

Vampmaster
28th Oct 2015, 10:16
Some time ago, I suggested that because the Rahabim territory was relatively small, that perhaps they occupied the islands to the west as well. It's an area that's not been covered so far in the lore (the prison island from the Vanguard blogs is a smaller location further south based on what I could tell from the blogs), so they would be available for use.

If SE decided to go with that idea, then perhaps a Rahabim map and blog could be themed around their invasion of the islands and mention the humans they encountered there, which would include the matriarch.

It could still have been referring to the prison islands of the Vanguards and hence the matriarch could show if in a blog for the Vanguard's map, but I think there's more possibilities with the above idea.

A separate idea could follow on from an idea I had about explaining the elemental weapons. That they were somehow blessed at the glyph alters. Perhaps that water shrine (the statue itself, not the whole alcove it was set in) in the human citadel was shipped in from the islands and that is actually the matriarch. The statue is ancient, but I don't recall if it was mentioned that the matriarch was a currently living person, so it could even be some patron saint that watches over them.

I wonder where Bill's gotten to lately? He should be able to answer at least a few of the lore questions, since he's the design director and the one who's been writing the blogs, but we never seem to hear from him. Perhaps we should gather up some questions for him and Chris could pass them on?

CountEyokir
28th Oct 2015, 10:27
Some time ago, I suggested that because the Rahabim territory was relatively small, that perhaps they occupied the islands to the west as well. It's an area that's not been covered so far in the lore (the prison island from the Vanguard blogs is a smaller location further south based on what I could tell from the blogs), so they would be available for use.

If SE decided to go with that idea, then perhaps a Rahabim map and blog could be themed around their invasion of the islands and mention the humans they encountered there, which would include the matriarch.

It could still have been referring to the prison islands of the Vanguards and hence the matriarch could show if in a blog for the Vanguard's map, but I think there's more possibilities with the above idea.

A separate idea could follow on from an idea I had about explaining the elemental weapons. That they were somehow blessed at the glyph alters. Perhaps that water shrine (the statue itself, not the whole alcove it was set in) in the human citadel was shipped in from the islands and that is actually the matriarch. The statue is ancient, but I don't recall if it was mentioned that the matriarch was a currently living person, so it could even be some patron saint that watches over them.

I wonder where Bill's gotten to lately? He should be able to answer at least a few of the lore questions, since he's the design director and the one who's been writing the blogs, but we never seem to hear from him.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/legacyofkain/images/c/c2/SR1-Screenshot-Location-WaterGlyphAltar.png/revision/latest?cb=20130624201017

Now if THIS lady is meant to be the Matriach and they come up with some interesting additions in terms of Lore, story and perhaps even statues and maps THAT WOULD BE AWESOME. Turn a weakness into a strength. ok Nosgoth developers, you've got some interesting options here now that I think about it. The shrines of Soul Reaver, each depict some kind of person of entity worth making Nosgoth lore out of.

Force Glyph - Nupraptor.
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/legacyofkain/images/1/1a/Nupraptorsr1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20101001165033

Stone Glyph - This Hammer wielding guy
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/legacyofkain/images/d/da/SR1-Screenshot-Location-StoneGlyphAltar.png/revision/latest?cb=20130625140108

Water Glyph - Is this the Matriach of the Islands?
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/legacyofkain/images/c/c2/SR1-Screenshot-Location-WaterGlyphAltar.png/revision/latest?cb=20130624201017

Fire Glyph - What demon is this?
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/legacyofkain/images/9/90/SR1-Fire_Glyph_Give.png/revision/latest?cb=20110317000653

And aside, for the vampires - who-is---this?
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130729215459/legacyofkain/images/3/3f/SR1-Texture-Mural-FireGlyphAltar-VampFigure.png

Nosgoth. Stop spending so much time on reskins and glowy particle effect and start building on these left over mysteries. Trust me, it'll do you a LOT MORE good in the long run. Regardless of what seems 'trendy' in the FTP scene.

Vampmaster
28th Oct 2015, 10:53
Daniel once confirmed that the statues were ancient, so they are more likely to be mythologized in the human folklore rather than anyone to have died in this era. Mythology does last a very long time though, getting more and more distorted as the centuries go on, so it's still possible the humans have stories surrounding them. Maybe ways to tap into their power in lesser ways than Raziel could.

As for her being the matriarch of the islands, that would highly depend on how willing the humans were to ship large statues over those distances. If the statues function as weapons, it would add an object of strategic importance to the war and give the humans/vampires something specific to fight over.

Maybe the idea is too confusing. Who knows? It's better to have ideas being discussed than not though.

-Shiro-
28th Oct 2015, 15:11
Aaah the water glyph's statue... I re-played Soul Reaver on Vita recently, and I was so excited to see this statue again !

EDIT : I totally support your ideas, Ygdrasel. Well written ;)

lucinvampire
29th Oct 2015, 13:54
And aside, for the vampires - who-is---this?
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130729215459/legacyofkain/images/3/3f/SR1-Texture-Mural-FireGlyphAltar-VampFigure.png

His names Pete and he’s a swell guy, met him at the weekend :p

Sorry, couldn’t resist.


start building on these left over mysteries. Trust me, it'll do you a LOT MORE good in the long run. Regardless of what seems 'trendy' in the FTP scene.

Yeah and let some certain devs *pinty finger* write some stuff to accompany what they have designed. Come on, I'm point at you... ;)

CountEyokir
29th Oct 2015, 14:25
I've said it before but I really REALLY wish Nosgoth would stop wasting its time with leagues, tournaments and Esports. E-bloody-sports. That's so absurd...

What they need badly is more content. More classes, more weapons, more abilities, more maps, more modes and all of it to be based off of Soul Reaver and the LoK franchise. THAT is what it needs and this focusing on sideline elements is wasting time and money, but I suspect the overlord that is SE to be a bit blind to this. You have my sympathies Pysonix.

ButtCrusher
29th Oct 2015, 15:34
I've said it before but I really REALLY wish Nosgoth would stop wasting its time with leagues, tournaments and Esports. E-bloody-sports. That's so absurd...

What they need badly is more content. More classes, more weapons, more abilities, more maps, more modes and all of it to be based off of Soul Reaver and the LoK franchise. THAT is what it needs and this focusing on sideline elements is wasting time and money, but I suspect the overlord that is SE to be a bit blind to this. You have my sympathies Pysonix.
More bugfixes. Esports are fine thing but not in current state. In esport games you should focus on gameplay. In nosgoth you should learn not only game mechanics, you should learn how to take around bugs. Do not use shockwave near curb, it will not pass. Do not use disabling curse from there, it will not pass rope in front of you and hurt you. Do not touch corpse close to wall, you will stuck. Do not climb there, you will fly away or drop down. Do not run with charge near that wall, you will be stopped by crap sticked to it.
Also engine looks not ready for e-sport. There are a lot of ping / hitreg / cheat issues. Also looks like it's very hard to get work abilities as desired. Nosgoth have very special mechanics and need to find very smart solutions to fix issues provoked by mechanics.
Nosgoth looks very good as esport game. It's much more fun to play with your own team. Random team game fine, but coordinated skilled games are fantastic.

Vampmaster
29th Oct 2015, 15:54
More bugfixes. Esports are fine thing but not in current state. In esport games you should focus on gameplay. In nosgoth you should learn not only game mechanics, you should learn how to take around bugs. Do not use shockwave near curb, it will not pass. Do not use disabling curse from there, it will not pass rope in front of you and hurt you. Do not touch corpse close to wall, you will stuck. Do not climb there, you will fly away or drop down. Do not run with charge near that wall, you will be stopped by crap sticked to it.
Also engine looks not ready for e-sport. There are a lot of ping / hitreg / cheat issues. Also looks like it's very hard to get work abilities as desired. Nosgoth have very special mechanics and need to find very smart solutions to fix issues provoked by mechanics.
Nosgoth looks very good as esport game. It's much more fun to play with your own team. Random team game fine, but coordinated skilled games are fantastic.

Yes, it does need bugfixes and gameplay stuff, but that's not what this thread is about.

Heretic_13
30th Oct 2015, 07:48
Fire Glyph - What demon is this?
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/legacyofkain/images/9/90/SR1-Fire_Glyph_Give.png/revision/latest?cb=20110317000653
And aside, for the vampires - who-is---this?
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130729215459/legacyofkain/images/3/3f/SR1-Texture-Mural-FireGlyphAltar-VampFigure.png
.

LoK wikia states that Fire Glyph altar supposed to be located originaly in Turelim teritorry, in other words, near Dark Eden. No wonder that somebody use demon sculpture then. Spirit forge from Blood Omen 1 had sculptures like this, if i remember correctly.
And the same wiki says that this vampire mural returns in Dark Forge in SR2, so this guy is pretty ancient. It could be Vorador for all we know

Ygdrasel
2nd Nov 2015, 03:08
Esports are fine thing

I disagree entirely. Esports are a stupid thing. Competitive games, fine. I like TF2 sometimes. A little LoL once every few months. "Esports"? That's just taking competitive games and adding a dose of pretentiousness because they want to feel like they're not just playing video games. "Esports" are for video game players who are so uncomfortable with the time they put into the hobby that they feel the need to make it seem more important. "IT'S A SPORT, I'M COMPETING, THERE'S MONEY INVOLVED!", all that...

@Eyokir: I actually never found any glyphs on any playthroughs of Soul Reaver so it didn't occur to me there might be potential backstory there. After seeing the Force Glyph altar (I'm playing it again on PC this time, with a glorious texture mod, and intent on nabbing all the secrets), I'd just assumed the rest would be populated by other Guardian depictions. Would be interesting to have those statues and such expanded on though.

@Paradox: Yeah, I was baffled at first too because there's no mention of it in blogs or the wiki or anywhere. Indeed, Google turns up only one mention and it's just a forum user's reference to the tagline. As noted, it's a throwaway bit of nothing in the Auric skin taglines. Absolutely not something that needs to become a trend so I figure I'd rant about it now before it turned into one.

Though in what I would like to think is a bit of my doing (but probably not), they've allegedly taken in feedback and do apparently plan on expanding that particular character concept with a proper lore post in time.


@Gen: If a proper LoK game arrived, I'd bail on Nosgoth - with maybe the occasional return just to see what new location or backstory tidbits they create sometimes.

@Heretic: Turelim territory isn't in Dark Eden. Nor all that near to it. Closer to the Oracle's cave, I think, which is at least far enough from Dark Eden that Kain would bother to travel between them in bat form. (Actually, I've always been confused about Dark Eden. Did it entirely vanish with the Triad's demise or simply cease expansion but retain what already existed of it? I'd presume the latter. Whatever corrupt magic had already been done would likely stay in effect until the Circle was recycled - which Kain has yet to accomplish.)

ParadoxicalOmen
2nd Nov 2015, 14:35
Indeed, in the beginning there was so much love for the lore...i loved reading the blog posts about the new classes that were coming out (also lore about the maps and skins...). There were also some good teases in weapon description, particularly the Vanguard's Splitter Axe, which is wraith-forged. This was so cool for me, since the only wraith-forged equipment in Nosgoth (to my knowledge) was the Wraith-Armor in BO1 ( http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Wraith_Armor )

I especially liked the blog post about the Crucible's lore, which also included a bit about the marked skins if i'm not mistaken (which teased having something to do with the Hylden...i'm still waiting for a lore post about those marked skins).
http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/the-crucible-burnt-offerings

Lately they seem to focus more on making chests and skins though. I do realize this is how they make money and why is has such a priority, but it sucks that we simply don't see anything lore related (like we did in the beginning )

Vampmaster
2nd Nov 2015, 14:54
Indeed, in the beginning there was so much love for the lore...i loved reading the blog posts about the new classes that were coming out (also lore about the maps and skins...). There were also some good teases in weapon description, particularly the Vanguard's Splitter Axe, which is wraith-forged. This was so cool for me, since the only wraith-forged equipment in Nosgoth (to my knowledge) was the Wraith-Armor in BO1 ( http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Wraith_Armor )

I especially liked the blog post about the Crucible's lore, which also included a bit about the marked skins if i'm not mistaken (which teased having something to do with the Hylden...i'm still waiting for a lore post about those marked skins).
http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/the-crucible-burnt-offerings

Lately they seem to focus more on making chests and skins though. I do realize this is how they make money and why is has such a priority, but it sucks that we simply don't see anything lore related (like we did in the beginning )

Almost all of Kain's expendable items came from Spirit Forges, which were operated by the Wraith Smiths. I mean, there's nothing to say that a decent sorcerer couldn't possible create some types of item, but the Wraith Smiths were exceptionally proficient at it.
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_forges

Bazielim
2nd Nov 2015, 15:24
Yeah, I was baffled at first too because there's no mention of it in blogs or the wiki or anywhere.

We're as perplexed by the reference as you are... I could create a page on it ... but it'd be blank.:p
I'm hoping there will be more to elaborate and link the blogs in time, but I can't say for certain.



Turelim territory isn't in Dark Eden. Nor all that near to it. Closer to the Oracle's cave, I think, which is at least far enough from Dark Eden that Kain would bother to travel between them in bat form. (Actually, I've always been confused about Dark Eden. Did it entirely vanish with the Triad's demise or simply cease expansion but retain what already existed of it? I'd presume the latter. Whatever corrupt magic had already been done would likely stay in effect until the Circle was recycled - which Kain has yet to accomplish.)
There's a little bit of a paradox with SR1 development here. Turelim territory is not in Dark Eden - that much we know from Ben Lincoln's visit to CD (http://www.thelostworlds.net/AboutTLW/My_Visit_to_Crystal_Dynamics.html). However there were reasons it was assumed that was the case in the first place - and not just the lava and the proximity on maps - the Fire Glyph altar area is listed in the debug menus as "Fire3" under the heading "Dark Eden" and we know it was moved from the incomplete Turelim territory to the Razielim territory to keep it in the game (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1539&start=10). So yeah - slight confusion - perhaps a discarded idea or an development codename or something; I can't give a definitive answer.

Same with the fate of Dark Eden - besides that debug name there is nothing mentioned about it anywhere after BO1. There was speculation that it may have been featured and shut down in the Dark prophecy (possibly by a younger Kain to help the previous timelines fit), but there is nothing to go on. The Watcher blog (https://www.nosgoth.com/blog/scouts-messengers-wardens-and-warriors) mentions that "the events surrounding the Pillars of Nosgoth’s collapse rendered it inhabitable by mortals once more" so perhaps it was specifically tied to the powers of the pillars/guardians themselves and simply shut down itself once they were collapsed/dead? Again there isn't really a definitive answer.

Ygdrasel
2nd Nov 2015, 23:38
Indeed, in the beginning there was so much love for the lore...i loved reading the blog posts about the new classes that were coming out (also lore about the maps and skins...). There were also some good teases in weapon description, particularly the Vanguard's Splitter Axe, which is wraith-forged. This was so cool for me, since the only wraith-forged equipment in Nosgoth (to my knowledge) was the Wraith-Armor in BO1 ( http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Wraith_Armor )

I especially liked the blog post about the Crucible's lore, which also included a bit about the marked skins if i'm not mistaken (which teased having something to do with the Hylden...i'm still waiting for a lore post about those marked skins).
http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/the-crucible-burnt-offerings

Lately they seem to focus more on making chests and skins though. I do realize this is how they make money and why is has such a priority, but it sucks that we simply don't see anything lore related (like we did in the beginning )

Well, they certainly aren't making money from me because I refuse to gamble. If not for that, I'd throw whole wallets at them. Definitely want a full post on the Marked Skins. Feedback pushed them into one on the Matriarch so maybe if we talk loudly enough... :P

And as Vamp noted, all of Kain's battle artifacts in Blood Omen are "wraith-forged". Many take this to mean "forged by wraiths" but I still contend that the forges are of Hylden design - the color scheme is decidedly Hylden, and the statues are various demonic sculptures - with 'Wraith Smith' being more like 'Silversmith' in denoting the material used in the forging of equipment. Souls, in this case, which the description of the Wraith Armor also suggests.

(Long ago, I once suggested a new class that fought with battle artifacts...An idea I would still very much enjoy seeing. Sadly, I completely forgot about it and reviving the old thread now would just be silly.)

Speaking of the Splitter Axe...It kinda sucks, doesn't it? I expected more from such a weapon but the Impaler totally outclasses it.

@Baz: Huh. I'd like to think Dark Eden itself is still around (the terrain, that is, lava and cracks and all) but the creatures died out without a corrupt Nature or States Guardian around to mold the monstrosities. I mean, surely those things were sterile. And if the whole place had vanished, why/how would it still be known by that title so long afterward? I'd imagine it became inhabitable but never quite cured...

(Unrelated but I just had a thought too mad to not share: Imagine if the corrupted Circle became vampires...Their devolutions would be a glorious nightmare to behold, wouldn't it?)

Vampmaster
2nd Nov 2015, 23:59
Well, they certainly aren't making money from me because I refuse to gamble. If not for that, I'd throw whole wallets at them. Definitely want a full post on the Marked Skins. Feedback pushed them into one on the Matriarch so maybe if we talk loudly enough... :P

And as Vamp noted, all of Kain's battle artifacts in Blood Omen are "wraith-forged". Many take this to mean "forged by wraiths" but I still contend that the forges are of Hylden design - the color scheme is decidedly Hylden, and the statues are various demonic sculptures - with 'Wraith Smith' being more like 'Silversmith' in denoting the material used in the forging of equipment. Souls, in this case, which the description of the Wraith Armor also suggests.

(Long ago, I once suggested a new class that fought with battle artifacts...An idea I would still very much enjoy seeing. Sadly, I completely forgot about it and reviving the old thread now would just be silly.)

Speaking of the Splitter Axe...It kinda sucks, doesn't it? I expected more from such a weapon but the Impaler totally outclasses it.

@Baz: Huh. I'd like to think Dark Eden itself is still around (the terrain, that is, lava and cracks and all) but the creatures died out without a corrupt Nature or States Guardian around to mold the monstrosities. I mean, surely those things were sterile. And if the whole place had vanished, why/how would it still be known by that title so long afterward? I'd imagine it became inhabitable but never quite cured...

(Unrelated but I just had a thought too mad to not share: Imagine if the corrupted Circle became vampires...)

The quote on that wiki page doesn't say "wraith forged" though. It says that the wraith armour was created in a Spirit Forge, it says souls were used and Kain does obtain the other items from Spirit Forges as the player can observe by visiting them as Kain. I don't think it's ever mentioned whether the Wraith Smiths and Wraiths were the same beings, but it is implied that both were present in the Spirit Forges. It seems logical to me that the the Wraith and Shade selling the items would be the beings, even if that means it's a strange way to phrase it.

Heretic_13
3rd Nov 2015, 08:26
Well, they certainly aren't making money from me because I refuse to gamble. If not for that, I'd throw whole wallets at them. Definitely want a full post on the Marked Skins. Feedback pushed them into one on the Matriarch so maybe if we talk loudly enough... :P(...)
Huh. I'd like to think Dark Eden itself is still around (the terrain, that is, lava and cracks and all) but the creatures died out without a corrupt Nature or States Guardian around to mold the monstrosities. I mean, surely those things were sterile. And if the whole place had vanished, why/how would it still be known by that title so long afterward? I'd imagine it became inhabitable but never quite cured...


Nobody ever stated that demons are sterile- vampires, yes, but not demons. And some concept arts from SR1 have bunch of demons in them, sooo... I think either demon hunters, or vampire army took care of most of them, and rest sits tight, waiting for better times. And Dark Eden did not vanish, scouts are training there :) Whait a minute, i have idea for new game mode O_o follow me to new game mode post if you will
And you are right we were heard, so maybe...

Vampmaster
3rd Nov 2015, 10:44
Does anyone know if this is just something Chris made up?
"We’ll rain down a shower of steel and wood the likes of which these vile beasts have never seen. They think they can dominate us? They think they can COMMAND US? They know nothing. WE WILL RISE. WE WILL DESTROY THEM!
- Toleth the Tooth Collector"
http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/league-beta-2-solo-is-live-with-a-10-000-prize-pool-october-1st-to-31st

Maybe some lore could be written about this guy too.

Heretic_13
5th Nov 2015, 06:54
If we want it like in real world war, we`d end up with lots of side characters- war heroes, officers, generals, better tacticians, weapon and hand-to-hand combat masters, war criminals and so on. Thats a lot of work

ParadoxicalOmen
5th Nov 2015, 18:37
- Toleth the Tooth Collector"

Maybe some lore could be written about this guy too.

This reminds me of Witcher's tooth dwarf :D

http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Zahin_Schmartz

Ygdrasel
6th Nov 2015, 07:19
Nobody ever stated that demons are sterile- vampires, yes, but not demons. And some concept arts from SR1 have bunch of demons in them, sooo... I think either demon hunters, or vampire army took care of most of them, and rest sits tight, waiting for better times. And Dark Eden did not vanish, scouts are training there :)

It still being called 'Dark Eden' doesn't necessarily mean it's still there...But I am inclined to agree that the terrain, at least, remains twisted. And you misunderstood. I wasn't talking about demons. I was talking about the mutants of Dark Eden. The human slugs (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Human_slugs), the tooth-noses (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Tooth_noses), etcetera. One could well reason that these mutants have no natural way to produce more mutants.

@Vamp: The statues in the forges (presumably representative of each forge's Wraith Smith) bear little resemblance to any wraiths or shades seen in the series but a striking resemblance to demons - hence my thinking the forges are a Hylden affair, preferring to use demonic imagery to their own weirdly skeletal pitiful forms. After all, the Hylden don't look any kind of threatening or powerful. And in describing the forges, Kain specifically notes that the items are forged of "forfeit souls" while his Wraith Armor monologue describes it as having been "tempered from [the seething agony of] tortured souls". The only "souls" I'd say could be classified as 'forfeit' or 'tortured' would indeed be those called wraiths, the stuck-in-spectral-limbo vampires and such.

(Not really a part of that but just an observation I found sort of poetic: Raziel himself who, despite sapience, is still just a wraith like the others - positively stuffed with torments given his position and ultimately forfeit to the Reaver - was the wraith used to "forge" the Soul Reaver. Kain never did lose his penchant for wraith trinkets, eh...)

But all that aside, I'd imagine that Toleth the Tooth Collector is in a similar business as Elzevir. Couple of little weirdos... >.>

@Whomever it may concern: The Vanguard lore mentions a "Patriarch of the Waters". Any connection to the Matriarch? Something maybe to keep in mind if any from Psyonix are reading this. ;)

(Actually, it occurs to me that Dead Sun was allegedly to have explored the religious tendencies of Nosgothians. Maybe these are deities of some kind. Guess we'll have to wait and see...)

Heretic_13
6th Nov 2015, 08:02
It still being called 'Dark Eden' doesn't necessarily mean it's still there...But I am inclined to agree that the terrain, at least, remains twisted. And you misunderstood. I wasn't talking about demons. I was talking about the mutants of Dark Eden. The human slugs (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Human_slugs), the tooth-noses (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Tooth_noses), etcetera. One could well reason that these mutants have no natural way to produce more mutants.(...)
(Actually, it occurs to me that Dead Sun was allegedly to have explored the religious tendencies of Nosgothians. Maybe these are deities of some kind. Guess we'll have to wait and see...)

Mutant also weren`t stated as sterile, but true, we don`t get any of them in other games, so it`s pretty safe to assume, the died out, or were wiped out
If you ever read different forums posts about cancelled LoK games, or watched Dead Sun gameplay, you can find bits of lore here and there- in video it rquire to stop and read a bit, but you can learn somethings about game. And of course there is this scene of sacrafice- Asher- protagonist by shifting in to spirit realm can see shadows, echos of souls that one lived, and he stumbles on bunch of shadows burning body of a child.
He states that "even then(when people were born much often, because at time of the game new born children are rare occurence) death of a child was still tragedy", and Gein, vampire who resides in his soul states "you are sure this is funeral, not a sacrafice?". And as it turned out, humans were burning body of sacraficed child for Sun blessings
Why i did write that? Because lot of you treat Dead Sun as retarded bas**** child of LoK series and most of you weren`t really that interested, so i assume you didn`t watch gameplay

Ygdrasel
6th Nov 2015, 08:19
Mutant also weren`t stated as sterile, but true, we don`t get any of them in other games, so it`s pretty safe to assume, the died out, or were wiped out
If you ever read different forums posts about cancelled LoK games, or watched Dead Sun gameplay, you can find bits of lore here and there- in video it rquire to stop and read a bit, but you can learn somethings about game. And of course there is this scene of sacrafice- Asher- protagonist by shifting in to spirit realm can see shadows, echos of souls that one lived, and he stumbles on bunch of shadows burning body of a child.
He states that "even then(when people were born much often, because at time of the game new born children are rare occurence) death of a child was still tragedy", and Gein, vampire who resides in his soul states "you are sure this is funeral, not a sacrafice?". And as it turned out, humans were burning body of sacraficed child for Sun blessings
Why i did write that? Because lot of you treat Dead Sun as retarded bas**** child of LoK series and most of you weren`t really that interested, so i assume you didn`t watch gameplay


Did I even say that they were stated as sterile? I did not. But, unless Dark Eden warped the very genetics of these things to allow reproduction of mutants (a very grotesque idea), it is a distinct possibility.

On the contrary, we all watched the gameplay. That's how we all knew to be revolted: The awful writing, lazy characters, cheap rehashing of material and outright failure to adhere to continuity (and I'm not just talking about it being set in a far-flung future, because Soul Reaver did that and was amazing) were all presented in gameplay or else the cutscenes in between.

(Note: I liked the gameplay - the parkour bits and Arkham-esque combat were great. It was the continuity failure, poor immersion design, lousy writing and crappy attitude of the developers that I hated. Dead Sun would've been perfect if they'd just had some respect for the series. Maybe brought Amy in to consult.)

Heretic_13
6th Nov 2015, 08:36
I dun said nuffin` about how you all should be happi `bout Dead Sun- i just said about lore and Nosgothians customs and gods
As for Dark Eden- i think people who can transport Turel through time, and warp the very land don`t have many problems with twisting nature of several beasts. But it`s rather empty disscusion, as we all know, aside for demons infesting Nosgoth wastelands(BO2) we don`t get any mutants aside form BO1

Bazielim
6th Nov 2015, 13:04
as we all know, aside for demons infesting Nosgoth wastelands(BO2) we don`t get any mutants aside form BO1
*cough* Soul Reaver 2 (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Mutants_(SR2)) *cough* ;)

ParadoxicalOmen
6th Nov 2015, 21:11
*cough* Soul Reaver 2 (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Mutants_(SR2)) *cough* ;)

beat me to it xD

Vampmaster
9th Nov 2015, 16:22
Did anyone else spot a reference to the Battle-priests of the Lake of Serenity on one of the Vanguard Shields? It would be nice to know who those were although from the sounds of things they're long dead.

Heretic_13
10th Nov 2015, 06:34
*cough* Soul Reaver 2 (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Mutants_(SR2)) *cough* ;)

Yuck it up :P I meant this thing from swamp is basically demon for me, even though it`s mutant. There is no human-slug and co.

Ygdrasel
11th Nov 2015, 05:53
Yuck it up :P I meant this thing from swamp is basically demon for me, even though it`s mutant. There is no human-slug and co.

Except there is, and they're not demons.

Regardless, his point remains that demons do also appear in SR2. :p (And boy, are they a pain...)

Heretic_13
16th Nov 2015, 07:25
Yup, they are. But oddly enough, in SR1 time, ther is no demons or mutants anymore. Maybe they lay low. After all, as far i know, there was plan to put them in to SR1 originally

Ygdrasel
16th Nov 2015, 22:47
Yup, they are. But oddly enough, in SR1 time, ther is no demons or mutants anymore. Maybe they lay low. After all, as far i know, there was plan to put them in to SR1 originally

A lot was planned for SR1. I just presume the demons have no interest in invading a rotted waste.

ParadoxicalOmen
17th Nov 2015, 01:56
A lot was planned for SR1. I just presume the demons have no interest in invading a rotted waste.

I thought this was explained in BO2, where Kain "re-seals" the passage from/to the demon dimension (with the nexus stone).

Ygdrasel
17th Nov 2015, 23:46
I thought this was explained in BO2, where Kain "re-seals" the passage from/to the demon dimension (with the nexus stone).

Oh, right...Boo, so no demons in a sequel...

Heretic_13
18th Nov 2015, 07:43
I thought this was explained in BO2, where Kain "re-seals" the passage from/to the demon dimension (with the nexus stone).

But in SR1 timeline there were no Hylden, right? Kain just went straight for the power- and there were no explenation for Dark Eden dissaperance

Ygdrasel
18th Nov 2015, 09:17
But in SR1 timeline there were no Hylden, right? Kain just went straight for the power- and there were no explenation for Dark Eden dissaperance

As I understand it, the events of SR1 occur in every timeline. In the fourth (BO2) timeline, Kain sealed the Hylden Gate then still went on to build the empire we see in SR1.

Why mention Dark Eden? Again, the things in there were mutants, not demons. This is a fact of canon and not up to interpretation. Regardless, Dark Eden's fate has always been ambiguous at best. Some say it vanished entirely with the deaths of its architects. Some think it ceased expansion but remains in place over the area it had already consumed.

Me, I think the terrain remains twisted but without active magic (the corrupted Guardians) feeding it, it no longer expands or mutates life within its boundaries. So the land is still all kinds of twisted but the mutants are extinct.

Ultimately, I guess it's up to Psyonix to decide if Dark Eden's still around and in what form...(HINT HINT PSYONIX PLEASE TO BE MAKING DARK EDEN MAP THANK YOU)

Vampmaster
18th Nov 2015, 10:16
As I understand it, the events of SR1 occur in every timeline. In the fourth (BO2) timeline, Kain sealed the Hylden Gate then still went on to build the empire we see in SR1.

Why mention Dark Eden? Again, the things in there were mutants, not demons. This is a fact of canon and not up to interpretation. Regardless, Dark Eden's fate has always been ambiguous at best. Some say it vanished entirely with the deaths of its architects. Some think it ceased expansion but remains in place over the area it had already consumed.

Me, I think the terrain remains twisted but without active magic (the corrupted Guardians) feeding it, it no longer expands or mutates life within its boundaries. So the land is still all kinds of twisted but the mutants are extinct.

Ultimately, I guess it's up to Psyonix to decide if Dark Eden's still around and in what form...(HINT HINT PSYONIX PLEASE TO BE MAKING DARK EDEN MAP THANK YOU)

There were demons in Blood Omen 1 and Soul Reaver 2 before the binding even failed. It appears they can slip through more easily than hylden can.

Ygdrasel
18th Nov 2015, 21:30
There were demons in Blood Omen 1 and Soul Reaver 2 before the binding even failed. It appears they can slip through more easily than hylden can.

Naturally. The Hylden were specifically banished by magic. The demons just live abroad. And in BO1's case, Azimuth was bringing them over and probably wreaking all sorts of hell on the dimensional borders.

Though if I recall correctly, the demons in SR2 are first seen while Raziel wanders the era after Kain collapses the Pillars. They do manage to follow somehow to a pre-Collapse era but I just figure Moebius may have plucked them loose from their original time and sent them back to herd Raziel in the right direction.

Ygdrasel
19th Nov 2015, 09:34
Browsing the LoK wiki to freshen up a few memory details for my personal project, it does note mutants of some kind existing in SR2, post-Collapse...So whatever magics mutated Dark Eden's creatures may still be present to some degree in that area after all...

Heretic_13
19th Nov 2015, 10:26
And "Nosgoth" own lore(i`m starting to overuse this word) states, that Scouts grow up and train in there- thier ancestors fled to the place where vampires wouldn`t follow- or something.

FearGhoul
19th Nov 2015, 20:32
I figured that the mutants could be breeding with each other and making even worse things. I've always liked the idea of Kain and his sons going to Dark Eden at times to hunt weird mutants for entertainment.
About the demons in the time before the Pillars collapsed, I figured that the Plane Guardian might have had to do with it. We have no idea if any of them had been seduced by the Hylden after all.

SquirrelInDaSky
19th Nov 2015, 22:02
Nosgoth is fine without context. The base gameplay is polished and fun, i couldn't care less for it being part of some franchise.

Vampmaster
19th Nov 2015, 22:20
Nosgoth is fine without context. The base gameplay is polished and fun, i couldn't care less for it being part of some franchise.

So, don't read the lore.

Ygdrasel
20th Nov 2015, 00:18
Nosgoth is fine without context. The base gameplay is polished and fun, i couldn't care less for it being part of some franchise.

Great. So you don't have to read it. The people who actually care about the series will.

Heretic: The Scout lore uses the name 'Dark Eden' but does not describe whether any of its BO1 effects persist. It actually suggests the effects have lessened, with the land becoming inhabitable again. So it may be that Dark Eden slowly faded after Kain took out the Guardians, and might be gone entirely by now. Whether anything remains in Nosgoth's era will be up to the devs, I guess. I support its return in some form myself.

FearGhoul: I'd always figured the mutants couldn't breed. Either the genetics or the...Parts...Became too warped in the mutation process. I just figure any unfortunate creature that lingers in Dark Eden would eventually mutate due to residual magic in the area. (Which lends itself to a new Scout skin: Mutant)
Either way, I always hated SR2 mutants. Just...Gross and weird. XP

And we are specifically told that Azimuth and Mortanius were seduced. There is no reason to believe we'd be made aware of them and no others. In any case, Azimuth was confirmed to be seduced by the Hylden and, being the Dimension Guardian, was also confirmed to be bringing demons into the material realm. There's no need to figure. That's why they were there before the Pillars collapsed.

The issue in question is why/how Raziel encountered demons in an era before Nupraptor corrupted the Pillars in the first place. Azimuth's seduction by the Hylden had already occurred in that era, Hash's cult already founded, but it's only explicitly said that she started summoning demons after Nupraptor's madness took her so I'd assume they stayed secretive. And she'd have no motive to summon them against Raziel in any case. Maybe it was pure coincidence that he was just always in the wrong place at the wrong time while Azimuth practiced her summoning but that's not a very fun idea...

Heretic_13
25th Nov 2015, 09:11
Maybe they "just" followed Raziel through time, obidient to thier masters. They seem capable, inteligent, can talk and coordinate thier attacks
As for Azimuth- i don`t think she was alive, when Raziel strolled through Nosgoth in Sarafan era... Didn`t Vorador went on rampage and kill six guardians then? And then Malek in a short(unfair) duel? Leaving only Moebius and Mortanius from "old timers"?

Ygdrasel
25th Nov 2015, 09:37
Maybe they "just" followed Raziel through time, obidient to thier masters. They seem capable, inteligent, can talk and coordinate thier attacks
As for Azimuth- i don`t think she was alive, when Raziel strolled through Nosgoth in Sarafan era... Didn`t Vorador went on rampage and kill six guardians then? And then Malek in a short(unfair) duel? Leaving only Moebius and Mortanius from "old timers"?

That's my thinking. That the demons left over in that era were pulled through time by Moebius. They would have no reason to follow otherwise, as Raziel is no enemy. So Moebius flings them through time to meet ol' Raz, relying on their general viciousness to take him down.

In Blood Omen and SR2 (and BO2), demons are all just mindless destruction machines. Where are you getting 'intelligent' from? They certainly never talk.

Vorador's rampage killed six guardians. The guardians met in Blood Omen are the successors of these - with the exceptions of Malek, Moebius and Mortanius. Whichever Dimension Guardian he slaughtered, Azimuth was the replacement. And she founded Hash's cult in that era sometime after becoming such.

And Malek wasn't killed by Vorador, only knocked out. And certainly not in a duel, though certainly on fair terms. Trained by warriors and he doesn't even watch his back...Perfectly fair for him to fail by his own mistake. :P

Vampmaster
25th Nov 2015, 10:47
That's my thinking. That the demons left over in that era were pulled through time by Moebius. They would have no reason to follow otherwise, as Raziel is no enemy. So Moebius flings them through time to meet ol' Raz, relying on their general viciousness to take him down.

In Blood Omen and SR2 (and BO2), demons are all just mindless destruction machines. Where are you getting 'intelligent' from? They certainly never talk.

Vorador's rampage killed six guardians. The guardians met in Blood Omen are the successors of these - with the exceptions of Malek, Moebius and Mortanius. Whichever Dimension Guardian he slaughtered, Azimuth was the replacement. And she founded Hash's cult in that era sometime after becoming such.

And Malek wasn't killed by Vorador, only knocked out. And certainly not in a duel, though certainly on fair terms. Trained by warriors and he doesn't even watch his back...Perfectly fair for him to fail by his own mistake. :P

The demons only talk when possessed by hylden. Although they are *separate beings* (http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Question_and_Answer_with_Jen_Richard_and_Kyle.html), the hylden do sometimes use them as hosts. IIRC, they are able to do just after Janos is killed in SR2 because the binding was weak at that point.

perpetualodium
25th Nov 2015, 17:29
This forum is awful for whining. You guys keep asking for the moon and sun. Nothing is good enough. All I see are complaints and the desire for things that are very hard to implement. I would be frustrated as hell if I worked on this game. I'm talking about the OP but also all of the ridiculous things that people ask for on a weekly basis.

Ygdrasel
26th Nov 2015, 01:44
This forum is awful for whining. You guys keep asking for the moon and sun. Nothing is good enough. All I see are complaints and the desire for things that are very hard to implement. I would be frustrated as hell if I worked on this game. I'm talking about the OP but also all of the ridiculous things that people ask for on a weekly basis.

"The moon and sun"? I'm literally just asking for TEXT. For explanation. "Very hard to implement"? It's text! I could write it myself for free if they'd post it up to the blog or in-game!

ParadoxicalOmen
26th Nov 2015, 12:34
@perpetualodium

Yeah, I'm with Ygdrasel...what is hard is coming with a good story, being creative and compelling
In terms of implementing it, it's not hard at all...The fonts are already defined, all the structures seem to be done...it's seems more of a matter of wanting to do them (like our long ignored Lore tab in-game).

perpetualodium
26th Nov 2015, 18:43
@perpetualodium

Yeah, I'm with Ygdrasel...what is hard is coming with a good story, being creative and compelling
In terms of implementing it, it's not hard at all...The fonts are already defined, all the structures seem to be done...it's seems more of a matter of wanting to do them (like our long ignored Lore tab in-game).

This game isn't gonna survive because they added a lore tab. It's gonna survive based on being a top tier competitive multiplayer game. In terms of "the moon and sun", I was pretty much talking about all of the crazy suggestions they get on a weekly basis. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. New classes, interchangable elements from the different skins, etc. etc. It just seems like the fanbase is constantly unhappy. The fact that they had to change that prophet skin concept is pretty astounding to me

I feel like their priorities are probably in the right place. Demanding lore and a ton of story depth from a free to play multiplayer game seems kind of unwise. I know you guys are LoK fans, but the multiplayer should come first.

Vampmaster
26th Nov 2015, 20:26
This game isn't gonna survive because they added a lore tab. It's gonna survive based on being a top tier competitive multiplayer game. In terms of "the moon and sun", I was pretty much talking about all of the crazy suggestions they get on a weekly basis. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. New classes, interchangable elements from the different skins, etc. etc. It just seems like the fanbase is constantly unhappy. The fact that they had to change that prophet skin concept is pretty astounding to me

I feel like their priorities are probably in the right place. Demanding lore and a ton of story depth from a free to play multiplayer game seems kind of unwise. I know you guys are LoK fans, but the multiplayer should come first.

Exactly how much staff time do you think the lore blogs take up? It's true some of the other features can't be added at this time and others have been ruled out entirely, but this thread is only concerned with the blog that takes small fraction of of one person's time and comes out once every couple of months at best.

If you have things you think aren't being worked on, make threads about those and if you think the blog is holding them up, say so in those threads, but don't try to tell the rest of us what we can and can't ask for.

perpetualodium
26th Nov 2015, 22:36
Exactly how much staff time do you think the lore blogs take up? It's true some of the other features can't be added at this time and others have been ruled out entirely, but this thread is only concerned with the blog that takes small fraction of of one person's time and comes out once every couple of months at best.

If you have things you think aren't being worked on, make threads about those and if you think the blog is holding them up, say so in those threads, but don't try to tell the rest of us what we can and can't ask for.

I'm not demanding you don't ask for lore or whatever, I'm just saying that it seems like it shouldn't be a priority. If all you're talking about is a blog, then that's different. Peeps were talking about an in-game lore tab or story inside the game. All I'm saying is that I think the competitive multiplayer should be the focus. That's what's gonna keep this game popular into the future. I'm also saying that a lot of the suggestions that come up in this forum are pretty unrealistic, and that the demands and complaints are a little over the top.

That's all, dude. I'm just one guy. I'm clearly not ordering you around. I'm just trying to provide my perspective, even if you don't care.

Ygdrasel
26th Nov 2015, 22:52
In terms of "the moon and sun", I was pretty much talking about all of the crazy suggestions they get on a weekly basis...New classes...

The fact that they had to change that prophet skin concept is pretty astounding to me

...New classes are a "crazy" suggestion? Really? That's literally just asking for content - that thing that keeps any game of this genre alive. Just what are your standards for "crazy"?

The Prophet skin was unoriginal and cartoony. It's not at all astounding that people disliked it. God forbid we prefer something unique over a recycled "Ooh, it's a skull mask!" concept.

Positioning a free-to-play multiplayer game as part of a story-rich series full of complex lore seems kind of unwise but that's what Square Enix did so that puts certain demands and expectations upon it that would not otherwise be there.

And yes, we are asking for lore and story in-game. It's not a monumental task to translate the blog into a lore tab, and it might actually build some interest in the series from newcomers - which is the primary reason for this game's existence.

Most suggestions that come up here are entirely realistic. Classes, abilities, text - which one isn't realistic?

And multiplayer can't come first anyway because greedy casino BS comes first.
But that's a different problem for (many) different threads.

perpetualodium
26th Nov 2015, 23:51
...New classes are a "crazy" suggestion? Really? That's literally just asking for content - that thing that keeps any game of this genre alive. Just what are your standards for "crazy"?

The Prophet skin was unoriginal and cartoony. It's not at all astounding that people disliked it. God forbid we prefer something unique over a recycled "Ooh, it's a skull mask!" concept.

Positioning a free-to-play multiplayer game as part of a story-rich series full of complex lore seems kind of unwise but that's what Square Enix did so that puts certain demands and expectations upon it that would not otherwise be there.

And yes, we are asking for lore and story in-game. It's not a monumental task to translate the blog into a lore tab, and it might actually build some interest in the series from newcomers - which is the primary reason for this game's existence.

Most suggestions that come up here are entirely realistic. Classes, abilities, text - which one isn't realistic?

And multiplayer can't come first anyway because greedy casino BS comes first.
But that's a different problem for (many) different threads.

I'm just gonna get moderated if I respond to this. Nice tone and attitude.

Ygdrasel
27th Nov 2015, 07:55
I'm just gonna get moderated if I respond to this.

So respond with reasonable restraint.

The tone is simply baffled. You act as if every suggestion out of here is some mad pipe dream while half the suggestions are just classes and game modes, fixes, basic stuff. I don't get it.

As for the attitude, well, I've already confessed elsewhere to looking down on those who swarm over this game (which is part of an established series) and act like we're unreasonable or stupid to demand it serve that series as well as it can.

Though, your first post in here was basically "You're all whiny and all of your ideas are ridiculous!" so...Yeah...
You can't honestly expect a grand reception with that intro.

ParadoxicalOmen
27th Nov 2015, 17:47
This game isn't gonna survive because they added a lore tab. It's gonna survive based on being a top tier competitive multiplayer game.

Immersion, dude!
Even LoL and DoTA have back stories for all their characters.

perpetualodium
27th Nov 2015, 19:17
The Community Manager just posted a huge lore article called The Sacred and the Profane. It's in the announcements section.

Vampmaster
27th Nov 2015, 19:46
The Community Manager just posted a huge lore article called The Sacred and the Profane. It's in the announcements section.

I just saw it, but thanks.

Ygdrasel
29th Nov 2015, 06:35
The Community Manager just posted a huge lore article called The Sacred and the Profane. It's in the announcements section.

See? Wasn't too crazy now, was it?

CountEyokir
29th Nov 2015, 19:05
See? Wasn't too crazy now, was it?

Took them long enough and...honestly in my opinion while it had some interesting elements its a bit lacklustre--- and the age old complaint still remains "If you're not going to use it in game, why write it?"

Ygdrasel
29th Nov 2015, 20:47
Took them long enough and...honestly in my opinion while it had some interesting elements its a bit lacklustre--- and the age old complaint still remains "If you're not going to use it in game, why write it?"

It is a bit lacking, true. But it's something. I actually wanted more detail on the Matriarch and her part in supplying the fighters...And I definitely think it needs use in-game. Some new shrines at Freeport and such.

Heretic_13
30th Nov 2015, 08:01
Careful Ygdrasel- Your unrealistic demands may ruin the game :)
Perpetualodium i don`t mean this to be insulting, nor i don`t want to preach to you, so don`t get jumpy or overly sensitive with me- if you will, i`ll be ban because of you :P
Question- did you ever played any of "Legacy of Kain" games? Or "Nosgoth" is your first, so to speak?
Depending on your answer: yes, you did. Then i don`t understand how would you say things like this, knowing rest of games
No, you did not. That would explain to me why you think our demands are "wierd"
Why we demand new class? Because in "Soul Reaver 1" there were one more clan of vampires- water dwelling Rahabim. And if we have 6 clans of vampires- then to be fair to humans- they also need new class
Why we demand lore? Because it was THE MOST IMPORTANT element of other games. Gameplay-wise they were really clunky, and felt "unfinished" when came to little detalis. Some of them were unfinished really. But we still love them. Why? Because of the story was great and so complex, that to explain it, even in person, i`d have to spend few hours at least
So if we- old time fans- would see that in this game story and settings are butchered just to fit anything developers would like to implement, regardless of source materials- we`d be very upset. And "Nosgoth" would lose big portion of it player base, if that was prevalent
Is that reasonig agreeing with you?