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Crowstormed
24th Oct 2015, 13:42
First of all, I am not a native English speaker so please, bear with me and I will try to be as clear as possible.
I see there is a lot of discussion going on whether the ending was good or poorly done. I see a lot of arguments from both sides but I think that people that actually enjoyed the ending are right. I will break the post into separate sections so I wont get lost in my own thoughts and wont forget about something.

1. “Our choices don’t matter if you choose sacrifice Chloe”
This is the most “stupid” argument for me in this whole discussion. I don’t want to go into deep details here because nobody would read wall of text written in bad English so long story short:
Our choices did matter for the entire game. Max now knows how to behave and make friends and it will be easier for her to get into those relationships with others. She won’t forget about them and will be able to help them. If there is after life I’m sure Chloe will also “remember” what happened between her and Max.
And most importantly, do you think your choices matter when you sacrifice Arcadia? No, this is where it doesn’t matter, everyone dies there. Everyone. Kate dies in hospital, people die on the street, the rest die in explosion in the diner because you didn’t stop it.

2. Which leads me to another point, I feel like sacrificing Chloe is true ending, it’s what Maxine would do. We all got to know her as the sweetest and most caring person ever and she learned her mistakes. Do you really think she could live with sacrificing the entire town, people she knew and care about to save one human being, even her best friend? That would destroy her, that would destroy every person in the end.
Max’s tragedy was getting those powers in the first place, it was her Hell. Of course, she would still get to see her best friend die if it weren’t for them, but she wouldn’t have to live through this nightmare she created. Upsides are thanks to them she was able to save people from Jefferson.


I’d also love to include my final thoughts for the game. It’s beautiful. I could be a better person than I am today if I played this game 10 years ago when I was teenager myself. Maybe now I wouldn’t feel bad for not helping people that were bullied at school. I was different. I dealt with the bullies with my attitude and they weren’t bothering me, but at the same time I didn’t help guys being bullied because, sadly, I didn’t care. I cared for myself and my few friends. It wasn’t about courage it was about my lack of empathy that I still have today. Its hard for me to feel anything towards people I know almost nothing about. My horror is I care more about Max, or other video game characters that I get to know real good than the people in real world.
Since I am talking about other games I like how the last third of this final episode went full Silent Hill. I love Silent Hill franchise, espiecially SH 2, it’s the most beautiful game ive ever played and I felt this vibe in the nightmare section. Some people don’t seem to understand it, but if they did they would surely appreciate it.

So, to end this post. I feel devastated that it’s the end of this story, but I love the ending because it’s complete, it completes the game well. The only question that wasn’t answered is how Max got those powers. But is it important overall? I don’t think so.
I wanna say thank you to the creators and all people involved in this game. It’s been quite some time since I felt those emotions. Even thought I was neither awkward or social teenager, I was complete outsider I kinda felt nostalgic playing the game. So thanks for that.

PS
I probably forgot about a lot of stuff I wanted to post about anyway, but maybe if someone would discuss with me I could eventually remebmer it lol

Lehkeri
24th Oct 2015, 13:47
"I went through hell for you"
"You are my number one priority"
"I won't trade you!"

Crowstormed
24th Oct 2015, 13:49
"And in order to save you I will become a monster and sentence all those innocent people to die for my selfish desire to save your life, making you and myself guilty for the rest of our lives."

Did really almost 50 % people did this to Max?

Lehkeri
24th Oct 2015, 13:52
"And in order to save you I will become a monster and sentence all those innocent people to die for my selfish desire to save your life, making you and myself guilty for the rest of our lives."

Did really almost 50 % people did this to Max?

It seems so. And I'm one of them.

Either way, I do believe there is no right or wrong answer. We choose the one we think fits, and that's okay. I'm happy to hear you enjoyed the ending :)

--TIE--
24th Oct 2015, 14:08
Either way, I do believe there is no right or wrong answer.

This reminds me at the Film "Brooklyn´s Finest" and the righter and wronger dialogue at the beginning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdr_uIN2dHw

Lehkeri
24th Oct 2015, 14:48
I posted this on steam forums, but I think it'll fit here as well :D

Thematically, the endings are fine. It's about choice. One of them is already a well-made, finished and beautiful ending. This is what you chose, and you're happy with it. That's good.

But the other one, while it's a proper ending too, is clearly not finished. It's open ended, okay, but it doesn't tell. Nor does it show.

I can give you an example here. I've been writing a story for over a year. Perhaps it'll be a book one day. But in that story, there was a scene where the a certain thing happened and the main character did something very out of character for her. When my friend read this part, he pointed it out. He said it didn't make sense for the character to do this. I defended my work, telling him that the character acts because she knows this and that. But then he said to me something I will never forget.

"She knows, but the reader doesn't. You haven't told told this to the reader."

And he was right. I cursed in my mind how blind I was. I was blinded by the fact that I knew how that scene went, but didn't tell the reader, because I forgot that I, as the writer, do know EVERYTHING that happens now and/or "behind the scenes". I forgot to tell and I forgot to show.

Malkav0
24th Oct 2015, 15:07
I posted this on steam forums, but I think it'll fit here as well :D

Thematically, the endings are fine. It's about choice. One of them is already a well-made, finished and beautiful ending. This is what you chose, and you're happy with it. That's good.

But the other one, while it's a proper ending too, is clearly not finished. It's open ended, okay, but it doesn't tell. Nor does it show.

I can give you an example here. I've been writing a story for over a year. Perhaps it'll be a book one day. But in that story, there was a scene where the a certain thing happened and the main character did something very out of character for her. When my friend read this part, he pointed it out. He said it didn't make sense for the character to do this. I defended my work, telling him that the character acts because she knows this and that. But then he said to me something I will never forget.

"She knows, but the reader doesn't. You haven't told told this to the reader."

And he was right. I cursed in my mind how blind I was. I was blinded by the fact that I knew how that scene went, but didn't tell the reader, because I forgot that I, as the writer, do know EVERYTHING that happens now and/or "behind the scenes". I forgot to tell and I forgot to show.

Quite a nice example ! ^^

Crowstormed
24th Oct 2015, 16:22
I think we know a lot about Max, and my previous point still stands. I don't see anyone, yet such caring girl kill all those people out of selfishness.
I myself am not a very good person and still wouldnt kill people I know to save one of my friend. We could discuss if I would sacrifice people i don't know, yea, MAYBE i could do that, but my other friends? I would be going to hell right after I shot myself in the head because i could not live with so much blood on my hands.

unnamed_soldier
24th Oct 2015, 18:50
"And in order to save you I will become a monster and sentence all those innocent people to die for my selfish desire to save your life, making you and myself guilty for the rest of our lives."

Did really almost 50 % people did this to Max?

Nop? I just played the game, its not my fault that Dontnod created this situation... I was doing my best but Im not here for everyone...

Max will be okay... she is game character. :D Both endings are cruel. The last choice in game is like... What kind of pepper you want? Sure, It's suffering to watch how tornado destroys city but If the most important person in your life stand next to you, you are able to go through. But if you will sacrifice closest person, you will add burden to your own future. Is it possible to go through? Not with all these "memories" and not without person who will understand you.

Tataboj
24th Oct 2015, 19:44
I agree with you. Even though I was really upset about the ending and the overall episode, the points you made are correct in my opinion. I've just finished Ep 5 for the second time and I came to peace with the ending. The only thing I really have against it is the fact the ending was too predictable (and maybe the nightmare was too long).

Crowstormed
24th Oct 2015, 19:57
I dont like this point "She's a game character".
If I dont want to get into character and feel for characters im playing some brainless games, if I'm playing a game with actual story and fleshed out characters for the sake of enjoying the game and understanding it I treat them as real human beings. That's why I won't accept the choice of almost 50 % people, they are selfish monsters. I was expecting the percentage to be around 20-25 % for this option but 46 % is a surprise.

Just from the "scientific" point of view i'd love to see more statistics about who chose which ending or options, like, male, female, age, basic stuff like that without going too much into details. Im really curious.

Arcadiagamer
24th Oct 2015, 19:57
I think too that the true end it's the one with Chloe sacrifice, and the another it's a "extra", but i don't like it much none of the two ends. My personal opinion only.

Werd95
24th Oct 2015, 20:19
Just from the "scientific" point of view i'd love to see more statistics about who chose which ending or options, like, male, female, age, basic stuff like that without going too much into details. Im really curious.

I agree, it would be really interesting to see the stats for that. I don't think we'd ever see it as there wasn't really anything like that built into the game. It's a shame, it would have been great to see. Still great to see what % of players do each action though.

Hindsight, eh? :P

PalatineKatinka
24th Oct 2015, 20:35
"She knows, but the reader doesn't. You haven't told told this to the reader."

And he was right. I cursed in my mind how blind I was. I was blinded by the fact that I knew how that scene went, but didn't tell the reader, because I forgot that I, as the writer, do know EVERYTHING that happens now and/or "behind the scenes". I forgot to tell and I forgot to show.

And this is why the Sacrifice Arcadia Bay has been criticised for not having the kiss. The developers have explained that they didn't think it was appropriate while they watched the town destroyed and that it wasn't needed since they have time later but the players didn't 'know' the outcome of their potential relationship as we weren't shown and weren't told. We were just left to speculate about their relationship which we've been doing for half the game.

A simple way to have found an appropriate time would have been to move Max's choice to later. Have the kiss when it currently is in the Sacrifice Chloe ending, have Max use the photo and then ask the player if they want to hide and let things happen or interfere as before. Hiding continues with the Sacrifice Chloe ending and it's pretty much no different to now. Interfering has Max rescue Chloe as before, we get a photo montage as she returns to the present with none of the photos changing and then Max explains to Chloe that she couldn't go through with it, tears the photo and we get the rest of the Sacrifice Arcadia Bay ending. Kiss inserted at an appropriate time, Max's decision is as late as it can be and all the pro-Chloe players would have been on the edge of their seats as they would've thought they were being rail-roaded into letting her die.

On the topic of which choice Max would be able to live with, either way someone dies because of her choice not to act. Either she chooses to do nothing to stop Chloe dying or she chooses to do nothing to stop the tornado. Personally, I believe Max would choose Chloe. In the final converstion it is Chloe who is arguing for her sacrifice. Max is the one arguing against it, saying she wont trade. This is in character with all the things she's said before about having Chloe's back etc. and how she speaks when trying to convince Chloe to not go near the junkyard. She is clearly tired of all the confusing time jumps and she has realised that when she tries to make things better there are too many variables that can go wrong. This is why I believe she would choose not to try to fix things anymore. She would accept that she has managed to save Chloe and should quit while she's ahead because trying to fix things again might not work as planned. Of course, it does work but she wouldn't know that. In the end both endings are valid as emphasised by both Warren and Chloe who tell Max they know she'll make the right choice, whatever she chooses. This is why I don't like people calling them 'good' or 'bad'. It's a dilemma, there is no good and bad. The 'right' choice is up to you.

ET_Red
24th Oct 2015, 21:05
"And in order to save you I will become a monster and sentence all those innocent people to die for my selfish desire to save your life, making you and myself guilty for the rest of our lives."

Did really almost 50 % people did this to Max?

It is true that letting Chloe go was the "righter"/ethical acceptable choice. But that's only the conclusion of the aftermath.
If I knew the outcome would, I have chosen it? Yes. But did I know it would turn out "fine" (at least for the Arcadia Bay citizens)? Well...no.


While standing at the lighthouse making the decision I thought different.
We never knew for sure until after we chose whether it was Max's power that caused the storm, or the circumstances of Chloe being alive or whether it was just a storm that was coming regardless of anything else.

We had already created two completely different timelines in which the storm was coming. The one where William was alive and we never had to save Chloe in the first place.
We never went through all the stuff like we did in the original timeline and yet still the storm was coming.
(we see the dead whales so it's safe to assume the storm is on its way there, too).
And the one where Max turns in her photo to Jefferson.
What insurance did we have that the storm wasnt coming regardless of Chloe living or dying? As it looked from those timelines: None, because it wasnt about Chloe, but us.

I personally thought that the reason for the storm was Max's meddling with time, with or without Chloe in the equation.
First the snow, then the birds and whales, the moons and finally the tornado. It got worse the more we used it. What would come after the tornado if we used the power to travel back once more? Something that would eventually affect more than only Arcadia Bay? Putting even more lifes at risk?
So at this point I felt like we cant change time over and over again hoping for it to turn out fine, worrying that I'd always make it worse the harder I try.
Overall the letting Chloe die option seemed to be as much as a gamble with other people's lifes as the other.


So I felt like the game was trying to say:
"Did you pay attention and learned from your mistakes so far? Now let's see if you are doomed to repeat them or learn to accept them."
And then it gave us the point where we could chose to not meddle with time anymore and let it go its way.

At least that's my conclusion on why I chose the "selfish" ending.
I have been proven wrong about my assumptions in the end, but at that time it felt...right?
Maybe not right but...less wrong. And it still does now.

There is also a little more elaborate way of my train of thought, that I have posted elsewhere already.


[QUOTE=ET_Red;2177849]There is no wrong here as much as there is no good or bad. :)

My first reaction when I picked the Chloe ending was kind of similar to yours.


What was going on in my head when I stared at my screen trying to put myself into the position, trying to decide whether to send either Chloe or Arcadia Bay to hell my first thought was:
Hell no, I cant sacrifice this whole town for just one life. That's just not right.
But then I sat a few minutes staring at the screen and rolling it over.
What would others have done? And why? Save the town by sacrificing one live for the good of many?
It probably was the right thing to do from an ethical point of view. But relying on ethics, or mathmatics to weigh one life against many, felt just like trying to shift the blame away from my own decision.
That was just not what I wanted.
My decisions throughout the game led to this point. This were the consequences I (the player/Max) had to draw, that I had chosen. And I realised after the first rash intent of letting Chloe die that I couldnt do it.
I cared for her too much. But what of Arcadia Bay, how strongly did I care for it?
Not so much, I had to admit. Of course there were people living in it I cared about. People that didnt deserve their fate.
But in the end that just wasnt enough. Chloe weighed stronger.
And apart from that I had just seen what the power of time travel could cause and especially what it could mess up. And now I was thinking about going back to the beginning of it, trying to negate all that happened by making use of this power again?
It has happened before and it always turned out worse than before. How could this time be different?
If I hadnt told Chloe about my powers after saving her, wouldnt have used them for and with her, would it be different at all? Or if I hadnt saved her at all?
Was it not her, but maybe all my fault? Should I have made a different approach in the past towards her and my powers?
Maybe it wasnt her fault of what happened, neither the tornado nor anything else, but mine.
Was it Chloe's fault for not dying or mine for trying to prevent it even harder every time it happened?
It was just as with William. Making a too heavy impact on the timeline backfires somehow.
Was death really following Chloe, or rather following me or more specifically my meddling with time?
If I went back she didnt have to die to cover her own fault I realised, because none of this was her fault, but if I went back now she would die to cover up my mistakes.
It seemed unfair. My meddling with time caused all this, I had left my mark on Arcadia Bay in several ways.
On the town and its people. Joyce and David, Chloe, Kate, Victoria, even Nathan and all the others I have met on the way.
They gave me insights on trust, ambitions and devotion, so many lessons learned. For them and for me.
And it would all be in vain if I chose to go back now. Only one meaningless memory inside my own head among many, with noone to share out there. With noone to learn from it.
I wasnt sure for whom I was doing it, when I finally chose.
For Chloe? For the people of Arcaida Bay? For myself?
But I stopped simply counting one life against many, let my gut decide and ripped the photo.
I decided for myself that I can't try to fix my mistakes over and over again, trying to live life perfect until the outcome suits me, thats not how it works.
Because life is what you make of it. Even the mistakes.
If that "mistake" was trying to do the right thing and saving Chloe the first time, I will go by it.

I'd like to believe that's what the ending was about. Taking responsibility. In either way.
I dont think it is a final destination scenarior evolving around Chloe but more like a butterfly-effect scenario revolving around Max.
So I guess the alternate (dickish) Max in your nightmare was kind of not wrong about blaming you.
Regardless whether Chloe lives or dies, if Max keeps stressing her powers chaos will follow in her wake.
The only role Chloe played in it was having Max become aware of her powers.
Welp, at least that's my conclusion on why I chose to let Arcadia Bay go.

The final choice might be a bit of black/white. But whatever your reasons behind choosing it certainly not.

PinkFrog
24th Oct 2015, 21:47
It seems so. And I'm one of them.

Either way, I do believe there is no right or wrong answer. We choose the one we think fits, and that's okay. I'm happy to hear you enjoyed the ending :)

You are right.
Dontnod gave us the wonderful choice between horrible and horrible.

Awesome.

KristaD
24th Oct 2015, 21:51
I personally thought that the reason for the storm was Max's meddling with time, with or without Chloe in the equation.
First the snow, then the birds and whales, the moons and finally the tornado. It got worse the more we used it. What would come after the tornado if we used the power to travel back once more? Something that would eventually affect more than only Arcadia Bay? Putting even more lifes at risk?
So at this point I felt like we cant change time over and over again hoping for it to turn out fine, worrying that I'd always make it worse the harder I try.
Overall the letting Chloe die option seemed to be as much as a gamble with other people's lifes as the other.

So I felt like the game was trying to say:
"Did you pay attention and learned from your mistakes so far? Now let's see if you are doomed to repeat them or learn to accept them."
And then it gave us the point where we could chose to not meddle with time anymore and let it go its way.



The storm is brought about Maxine fiddling with time, but the reason for her doing it is that stranger with blue hair lying bleeding the bathroom. I can't help to wonder if Chloe died there and then Maxine would never have had all the experiences with Chloe and others you witness though out the game.

Also when she snaps out of the "vision" in the start is her coming back from the time when Chloe ask her not to save her in the bathroom I belief.I wouldn't be surprised if the we take control of Maxine this is not the 1st attempt to "fix things". I know this does sound somewhat confusing, but who knows. :)

I've seen this trope used in several places, Star Trek Voyager : Year of Hell episodes and Bioshock Infinite are the freshest in my memory.