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MeteoricDragon
24th Oct 2015, 01:43
I don't understand the chaos theory stuff in this game. Time and actions are two separate things. If Max goes back in time to let Chloe die, how is she fixing time? She's just messing with time again regardless of whether she makes the same choices as the ones she made before she traveled back to correct them. :scratch: It's not like you could trick time into thinking that you weren't messing with it. So how would doing that stop the tornado?

Was anyone else thinking this?

PalatineKatinka
24th Oct 2015, 02:07
Yep. She doesn't even set things back to how they were since originally she stepped out and reached forward, accidentally triggering her rewind, now she sits in a corner and cries. Plus she hasn't undone the rewinds she performed in class. Also, I think it was Valdyr over on the Steam forums that pointed this out, as soon as future-Max leaves the moment of the photo, past-Max will take over again and surely she'll just rewind anyway since that's what we had to do, it's what Max of that time would do and she doesn't know yet to let Chloe die.

Choosing that option made no sense to me anyway after all the times Max has said Chloe is her number one priority, she'll always have her back, she'll never leave her and that she believes her destiny was to be there to save Chloe. Going back and not saving her goes against everything I know about what Max believes and wants.

Corinth
24th Oct 2015, 03:48
Yep. She doesn't even set things back to how they were since originally she stepped out and reached forward, accidentally triggering her rewind, now she sits in a corner and cries. Plus she hasn't undone the rewinds she performed in class. Also, I think it was Valdyr over on the Steam forums that pointed this out, as soon as future-Max leaves the moment of the photo, past-Max will take over again and surely she'll just rewind anyway since that's what we had to do, it's what Max of that time would do and she doesn't know yet to let Chloe die.

Choosing that option made no sense to me anyway after all the times Max has said Chloe is her number one priority, she'll always have her back, she'll never leave her and that she believes her destiny was to be there to save Chloe. Going back and not saving her goes against everything I know about what Max believes and wants.

That IS a pretty good point.

In all of the other "I used a photo to go back to change time", Max either prevented someone from doing something (William), disclosed important information (Chloe at the Party) or made something impossible (ripping up the contest photo). She went back in time, and directly changed things. She even remarks to Chloe that she will have no memory of what happens between then and the end that Chloe will have to fill her in on the details of what happened, so Max is aware that she has no control nor recollection of her alternate self's actions. So yes indeed, what is stopping Alternate!Max from simply rewinding and preventing Chloe from getting shot again exactly? Right, nothing. She didn't do something like hide the hammer, or throw the hammer out the window etc. If she'd done THAT, then it'd be more believable.

In this one, she just.... does nothing.

This kinda violates how the "travel back in time" thing works.

Oh, and another thing... every other photo that she uses to time-travel with has Max in the picture.

Guess what? The butterfly photo does not have Max in the picture. How can it even be a valid time-travel photo?

And you can't blame this on a "lack of budget" because they clearly wrote the story ahead of time from Chapter 1 because Chloe took that photo and kept it and it was supposed to be a foreshadow/big reveal thing at the very end, kinda like bookends...

But yet this photo violates what appears to be the rules that Max needs to be in the photo for it to work. Otherwise, you'd summarize that any Photo would work, as long as Max was nearby and that would surely open up a can of worms.

StrangerThanFiction
24th Oct 2015, 03:59
That IS a pretty good point.

In all of the other "I used a photo to go back to change time", Max either prevented someone from doing something (William), disclosed important information (Chloe at the Party) or made something impossible (ripping up the contest photo). She went back in time, and directly changed things. She even remarks to Chloe that she will have no memory of what happens between then and the end that Chloe will have to fill her in on the details of what happened, so Max is aware that she has no control nor recollection of her alternate self's actions. So yes indeed, what is stopping Alternate!Max from simply rewinding and preventing Chloe from getting shot again exactly? Right, nothing. She didn't do something like hide the hammer, or throw the hammer out the window etc. If she'd done THAT, then it'd be more believable.

In this one, she just.... does nothing.

This kinda violates how the "travel back in time" thing works.

Oh, and another thing... every other photo that she uses to time-travel with has Max in the picture.

Guess what? The butterfly photo does not have Max in the picture. How can it even be a valid time-travel photo?

And you can't blame this on a "lack of budget" because they clearly wrote the story ahead of time from Chapter 1 because Chloe took that photo and kept it and it was supposed to be a foreshadow/big reveal thing at the very end, kinda like bookends...

But yet this photo violates what appears to be the rules that Max needs to be in the photo for it to work. Otherwise, you'd summarize that any Photo would work, as long as Max was nearby and that would surely open up a can of worms.

Max's reflection is in the picture. Maybe that's all that she needed.

Corinth
24th Oct 2015, 04:10
Max's reflection is in the picture. Maybe that's all that she needed.

Perhaps. I didn't notice that.

Still doesn't cover up the plot hole with her Alternate Self and her lack of control over her Alternate Self.

StrangerThanFiction
24th Oct 2015, 04:17
Perhaps. I didn't notice that.

Still doesn't cover up the plot hole with her Alternate Self and her lack of control over her Alternate Self.

I wonder how many of those she has running around nowadays. Last time I counted there were at least 25. :lmao:

MeteoricDragon
24th Oct 2015, 04:19
I was hoping for some kind of mystical explanation behind the tornado. I understand there's a willing suspension of disbelief for time travel, but that willing suspension only extends so far.

Having a big tornado in a game like this as a consequence for her not letting chloe die is like inserting Santa Claus into a vampire movie.

Corinth
24th Oct 2015, 04:27
I was hoping for some kind of mystical explanation behind the tornado. I understand there's a willing suspension of disbelief for time travel, but that willing suspension only extends so far.

Having a big tornado in a game like this as a consequence for her not letting chloe die is like inserting Santa Claus into a vampire movie.

I know, right?

The whole "Big Bad Tornado shows up because you altered reality!" thing works... except it showed up before she ever rewound time. In fact, IIRC, she remarks that all of this started with that dream in Jefferson's class. So... what, she obtained these powers and is punished for using them, and the only way to avoid the Tornado is to go back and undo everything she used those powers to do? Really? That's... I dunno what to say about that.

Or are they trying to tell us "Here, Max. You got this power, but you mustn't use it to save Chloe."

Is that it? She's permitted to use her power for anything except saving Chloe? That's kinda ridiculous, lol.

In fact, wild as it sounds, it is supported by the game itself, because the rewinds in Jefferson's class still stand without Mr. Twisterdoom entering the scene.

julietxjules
24th Oct 2015, 04:32
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

The one element of any story which has time travel as a driving factor will end up making you go crazy in trying to fathom everything out. There exists no model with which to make accurate calculations or predictions when advancing or retarding time. Take a moment and think of all your favourite movies that has involved time travel in their plots; they are all riddled with holes, but we suspend our disbelief because we find them entertaining.

TyrelHun
24th Oct 2015, 06:37
I for one am not any more happy with plot holes in movies than I am with them in games. However a movie is usually like 2 hours long at best, so they don't really have the time to explain everything... and also, honestly you don't really care about it either, you're not so pissed if they **** it up. It was only 2 hours of your life after all.

Life is Strange is different however. Playing through it takes about 12-15 hours (I think), and following it, waiting for the new episodes, checking out what would have happened if you choose a different answer takes up additional time. It gets you a lot more involved with the story and especially with the characters. You get a longer lasting experience, with it longer lasting and deeper emotions for the characters, and with it the ability to feel cheated when all of a sudden it stops making sense.

You know, we could have given some more details, explanation and a worthy ending instead of being forced to collect beer bottles.:mad2:

julietxjules
24th Oct 2015, 16:41
Exactly my point.

But you went to see them nonetheless. Good experience/bad experience; no one knows until they have gone through it.

PinkFrog
24th Oct 2015, 21:59
Also, does she still have her powers in the end? So, Chloes/AB death still inbound?

Tataboj
24th Oct 2015, 22:06
Yep. She doesn't even set things back to how they were since originally she stepped out and reached forward, accidentally triggering her rewind, now she sits in a corner and cries. Plus she hasn't undone the rewinds she performed in class. Also, I think it was Valdyr over on the Steam forums that pointed this out, as soon as future-Max leaves the moment of the photo, past-Max will take over again and surely she'll just rewind anyway since that's what we had to do, it's what Max of that time would do and she doesn't know yet to let Chloe die.

Choosing that option made no sense to me anyway after all the times Max has said Chloe is her number one priority, she'll always have her back, she'll never leave her and that she believes her destiny was to be there to save Chloe. Going back and not saving her goes against everything I know about what Max believes and wants.

1st: She was saying this but I believe in her mind she knew that she will have to go back (or not, that depends on your choices).
2nd: I think the alternate Max either can't rewind to the point where the real Max was, lost the rewind power as soon as Chloe died or even didn't know she has the powers at all.

Lehkeri
24th Oct 2015, 22:12
I'm sure this has been posted somewhere on these forums already, but this is an interesting take on how the storm might not be Max's fault.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rYm7yjqrl4

ET_Red
24th Oct 2015, 22:51
Perhaps. I didn't notice that.

Still doesn't cover up the plot hole with her Alternate Self and her lack of control over her Alternate Self.



In all of the other "I used a photo to go back to change time", Max either prevented someone from doing something (William), disclosed important information (Chloe at the Party) or made something impossible (ripping up the contest photo). She went back in time, and directly changed things. She even remarks to Chloe that she will have no memory of what happens between then and the end that Chloe will have to fill her in on the details of what happened, so Max is aware that she has no control nor recollection of her alternate self's actions. So yes indeed, what is stopping Alternate!Max from simply rewinding and preventing Chloe from getting shot again exactly? Right, nothing. She didn't do something like hide the hammer, or throw the hammer out the window etc. If she'd done THAT, then it'd be more believable.





Well it actually does, Max enters the bathroom two times. First time Chloe gets shot and Max finds out about her rewind while reaching out. Second time she saves Chloe by ringing the fire-alarm, already aware of her power.

Assuming she travels back to the first occasion (A point where the alternate Max didnt know about the rewind power yet). She then sits in the corner while Chloe gets shot, not reaching for her, never using her rewind for the first time. So when the alternate Max of that time takes over again, she will find herself in the bathroom but with Chloe already shot. She will never reach for Chloe, never discover her power, thus never using it, erasing the occasion she had originally discovered it.
Which I think is also the whole point of this scene. Not because "Chloe has to die", but because you have to prevent yourself from ever getting to know about your rewind power.
So alternate Max probably still has her power, but in this timeline wont be able to use it until the "real" Max takes over again, simply because she doesnt know she has it.

That's how I would explain it.
We do love our time travel stories for the mindf**ks they provide us with, dont we? :D (No sarcasm here)

CrystalXPredator
24th Oct 2015, 22:57
I'm sure this has been posted somewhere on these forums already, but this is an interesting take on how the storm might not be Max's fault.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rYm7yjqrl4

But I wouldn't say Max is a scapegoat. :o
She says almost the same what I did for myself while exploring and figured out. I also really thought after I found
the deleted audio file from Nathan. I felt so sad and bad for him, it was also one of my reason to stop Warren beating him up.
But then episode 5 cames out, I read the tweet from Dontnod (Michael Koch) that they went out of time and budget.
And also the phone voice message from Nathan to Max was what I thought. "Hmm okay we have to rescue nathan either ..."

Thats why I am supporting the petition and hope that Life is Strange gets what it deserves.

But this video is very interesting to get some more information and closure to yourself, I mean as an additional information source.

PalatineKatinka
24th Oct 2015, 23:33
Assuming she travels back to the first occasion (A point where the alternate Max didnt know about the rewind power yet).

Why do you assume that? Max enters the bathroom, tears her competition entry, takes a photo of the butterfly, Hears Nathan enter, hears blue-haired girl enter, witnesses murder, reaches out and accidentally rewinds BUT this is not like the rewind we normally use as her location changes back to the classroom and here stuff is no longer in her bag over her shoulder, it's spread out on her desk. She then repeats everything, using her rewind to stop herself accidentally wrecking her camera and to answer questions quickly to get out of class sooner, heads to the toilets, talks through everything she did and takes the photo again. I would think this is the point she returns to. There is at least a 50/50 chance it is the second photo that gets used but if the unexpected rewind back into the classroom moved her and her stuff back to where it was then it may have undone the photo too which would mean it would have to be the second time round, when she is aware of her rewind and has already tested it.

MeteoricDragon
24th Oct 2015, 23:41
Thats why I am supporting the petition and hope that Life is Strange gets what it deserves.

Could dontnod be persuaded with more funds? money talks.

KristaD
24th Oct 2015, 23:46
Could dontnod be persuaded with more funds? money talks.

I do support this petition as well. I would like to hear from Dontnod regarding this. I have doubts monetary reason would be the main reason for putting out a "improved" ending (Chloe lives) or making a directors cut of the game, as much as I would like to see it.

--TIE--
25th Oct 2015, 00:19
Could dontnod be persuaded with more funds? money talks.

I hope they see how easy it is to milk this comunity and find a way to got our money for a dc or polishing the endings...

ET_Red
25th Oct 2015, 00:20
Why do you assume that? Max enters the bathroom, tears her competition entry, takes a photo of the butterfly, Hears Nathan enter, hears blue-haired girl enter, witnesses murder, reaches out and accidentally rewinds BUT this is not like the rewind we normally use as her location changes back to the classroom and here stuff is no longer in her bag over her shoulder, it's spread out on her desk. She then repeats everything, using her rewind to stop herself accidentally wrecking her camera and to answer questions quickly to get out of class sooner, heads to the toilets, talks through everything she did and takes the photo again. I would think this is the point she returns to. There is at least a 50/50 chance it is the second photo that gets used but if the unexpected rewind back into the classroom moved her and her stuff back to where it was then it may have undone the photo too which would mean it would have to be the second time round, when she is aware of her rewind and has already tested it.

Yeah, I was assuming she'd travel back to that point since it would make the most sense in providing an explanation.

But you are right. It's not clear whether the original photo stays with Max or is replaced, even though smaller things she carries with her travel through time with her. I got to correct my assumption.
So if the picture at the end is the first one taken it still makes sense, elsewise it is lacking a proper explanation of how the ending worked exactly regarding the travel through the photo and the hole still exists.

StrangerThanFiction
25th Oct 2015, 02:02
Sorry if this gets lost in translation so forgive me, but I am going to try to explain my theory of why the tornado happened.

The creation of too many alternate timelines.

Chloe's death created one in which she was dead and one she wasn't.

Principal Wells: Created one in which Max tells on Nathan and another one where she doesn't tell on Nathan (This combines with the already timelines in existence brings the total up to 6 different timelines)

I would go on but two reasons I won't.

1) I don't remember every single major choice made in game.

2) It would be a long post.

But pretty much, every choice creates more timelines. (2-6-14 and so on).

When she photo jumps to prevent William's wreck she gets transported to ONE (just ONE) of the possible timelines (and that's a WHLOE LOT OF TIME LINES) that could have happened just from that ONE incident.

So I don't thinking saving Chloe made the tornado. She could've saved Chloe and not used her rewind afterwards and the only thing we would get is probably a little disturbance. However, for the sake of the narrative, the story goes along (with all the writing on the wall) that Chloe has to die. On the contradiction side of things; why did she get the time rewind power then?

Well, we will never know because the writers said that it wasn't going to be revealed. We can only speculate or theorize.

PalatineKatinka
25th Oct 2015, 02:16
The thing is that Chloe's death isn't the only thing that creates alternate timelines. It's the point at which Max starts trying to control which one she lives on but it no more creates timelines than Max deciding to get up when her alarm goes off or hit snooze and stay in bed. Neither Max nor Chloe should be held morally accountable for unintended and unpredictable events beyond their control.

StrangerThanFiction
25th Oct 2015, 02:39
The thing is that Chloe's death isn't the only thing that creates alternate timelines. It's the point at which Max starts trying to control which one she lives on but it no more creates timelines than Max deciding to get up when her alarm goes off or hit snooze and stay in bed. Neither Max nor Chloe should be held morally accountable for unintended and unpredictable events beyond their control.

That was pretty much my point I was trying to make (sorry if it wasn't clear. It's late, I'm too tried and lazy, and I don't remember everything that I had originally thought of earlier.) It's not Max rewinding time for just one or a few things, but her overuse of her power.

Then again, Arcadia Bay gets about five tornados per year.

HEAD-CANON THING: Max gets vision of F5 tornado coming to Arcadia Bay and she's giving the rewind power in order to save as many people as she can before Friday.

BEST ENDING: Max and Chloe (Or Max and Warren; depending on your choice) get married; all of their friends and family are in attendance. Warren (Daniel if Max is marrying Warren) is the best man. Rachel Amber (who we save by time jumping into one of her photos) is the Maid of Honor (Chloe if Max is marrying Warren). Jefferson is in jail. Nathan is in a mental rehab center in Washington. Mrs Grant And Samuel (Chloe and Rachel too depending on Warren romance) have just come from the court house from getting their nuptials. Afterwards; Max and Chloe (Or Max and Warren) go on their honeymoon (Chloe and Rachel go along too depending on choice).

GOOD ENDING: Same as BEST ENDING with the exception of Rachel Amber (And Kate Marsh is missing if you did not help her off the roof).

NEUTRAL ENDING: Max and the girls (whomever you save) go out on that Portland Tea Tour.

BAD ENDING: Max and Chloe ride off in the sunset, picking up only those who actually believe in Max's warning.

SOMEONE STOP ME PLZ! I NEED TO STOP MAKING UP HEAD-CANONS!

Tataboj
25th Oct 2015, 10:12
That was pretty much my point I was trying to make (sorry if it wasn't clear. It's late, I'm too tried and lazy, and I don't remember everything that I had originally thought of earlier.) It's not Max rewinding time for just one or a few things, but her overuse of her power.

Then again, Arcadia Bay gets about five tornados per year.

HEAD-CANON THING: Max gets vision of F5 tornado coming to Arcadia Bay and she's giving the rewind power in order to save as many people as she can before Friday.

BEST ENDING: Max and Chloe (Or Max and Warren; depending on your choice) get married; all of their friends and family are in attendance. Warren (Daniel if Max is marrying Warren) is the best man. Rachel Amber (who we save by time jumping into one of her photos) is the Maid of Honor (Chloe if Max is marrying Warren). Jefferson is in jail. Nathan is in a mental rehab center in Washington. Mrs Grant And Samuel (Chloe and Rachel too depending on Warren romance) have just come from the court house from getting their nuptials. Afterwards; Max and Chloe (Or Max and Warren) go on their honeymoon (Chloe and Rachel go along too depending on choice).

GOOD ENDING: Same as BEST ENDING with the exception of Rachel Amber (And Kate Marsh is missing if you did not help her off the roof).

NEUTRAL ENDING: Max and the girls (whomever you save) go out on that Portland Tea Tour.

BAD ENDING: Max and Chloe ride off in the sunset, picking up only those who actually believe in Max's warning.

SOMEONE STOP ME PLZ! I NEED TO STOP MAKING UP HEAD-CANONS!

NO! I CAN'T! Actually, I am curious how we could save Rachel. Max can go only to the photos where she is present.

Lehkeri
25th Oct 2015, 10:20
NO! I CAN'T! Actually, I am curious how we could save Rachel. Max can go only to the photos where she is present.

With a letter. She goes back to one of her photos of her childhood, writes a letter that is meant to be sent to Chloe at a certain time. Think of Back to the Future and Doc's letter.

PalatineKatinka
25th Oct 2015, 11:46
With a letter. She goes back to one of her photos of her childhood, writes a letter that is meant to be sent to Chloe at a certain time. Think of Back to the Future and Doc's letter.

That's just what I was going to say. There was a holiday photograph she sent to Chloe but I can't remember if that was the other timeline or not. If it was the correct timeline then she could go back to that moment and write a letter to go with the photo.

Thisismydesign3
27th Mar 2016, 14:50
Yep. She doesn't even set things back to how they were since originally she stepped out and reached forward, accidentally triggering her rewind, now she sits in a corner and cries. Plus she hasn't undone the rewinds she performed in class. Also, I think it was Valdyr over on the Steam forums that pointed this out, as soon as future-Max leaves the moment of the photo, past-Max will take over again and surely she'll just rewind anyway since that's what we had to do, it's what Max of that time would do and she doesn't know yet to let Chloe die.

Choosing that option made no sense to me anyway after all the times Max has said Chloe is her number one priority, she'll always have her back, she'll never leave her and that she believes her destiny was to be there to save Chloe. Going back and not saving her goes against everything I know about what Max believes and wants.

I actually think that in the end (in the bathroom) "Our Max" (so the Max we played the whole game with and who remembers everything) replaces the "Auto Max" of the original timeline (the timeline where things happen how they were supposed to happen, so no timetravel). Normally Our Max would go back to the timeline from where she jumped in the photo after altering the past, but that's no longer possible in this case. Chloe gets shot. She dies. Max doesn't use her powers to alter the past, which means no alternate timelines are created. I think when Chloe gets killed in the bathroom, it means all those other timelines get 'destroyed', since Max doesn't use her powers and doesn't create alternate timelines. And if there are no alternate timelines, Our Max can't jump back anymore after letting Chloe die in the bathroom (because if Chloe dies the way she was supposed to, the storm won't happen, etc). This means Our Max is just 'stuck' in the original timeline, including all her memories. So Our Max replaces 'original timeline Auto Max'.

Could be I'm wrong, but this is how I saw it haha.