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View Full Version : Finale was great, BUT... [spoilers]



Xeitgeixt
23rd Oct 2015, 19:08
Okay I have some things to say and they are mostly LGBT-related. Hopefully you won't take this as a criticism of the game being "bad", because it was in fact a FANTASTIC game. I just have a few issues with how the finale played out, and perhaps the entire game overall.

Firstly, it's great to actually have some queer representation in a video game that includes the main two characters. This is a trend that we've been enjoying the past few years with games like Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Skyrim. Square Enix gave us Flea in Chrono Trigger way back in 1995, and also Cloud Strife in drag and Quina Quen, and are continuing the trend. Good on them.

However, there's a continuing, incessant trend in all media that lesbians are sexy, but are also required to die for their "sins" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BuryYourGays). And it seems that LiS fell into that rut.

It's great that the romance between Max and Chloe isn't merely "implied" or swept under the rug, nor is it blatant to the point of including an on-screen sex romp, but is merely shown to be what it is; two young friends who develop feelings for each other. It's one of the most organic love stories I've ever seen portrayed in fiction, and huge kudos to the writers and developers for that.

However, the ending still sends the same message that most media are guilty of: "If you dare to have a non-hetero romance, you either end up destroying all of your friends and family (figuratively or, in this case, literally), or at least one of you winds up dead." Understandable since it reflects life, but also disappointing.

Another thing my friends have pointed out to me, and I agree with somewhat: you are given the option to kiss Warren no matter what happens. You can ignore every single one of his creepy, unwanted advances (I'll admit this is my opinion and not fact, but the contents of Warren's locker in Max's nightmare sequence would seem to support my opinion), display zero interest in him beyond friendship, and you're STILL given the option to kiss him out of nowhere in the diner. However, you have to do everything just right to kiss Chloe in the finale - and you can only do that if you're about to "kill" her. It sends the unspoken message that hetero relationships have more validity than queer ones, are more readily expected and accepted. Which is true in the eyes of society, but I had hoped the game would push beyond that. Oh well... missed opportunities.

As I said, overall it was still one of the best and most gripping video game experiences I've ever had, despite making my skin crawl at a few key points (and if you have to ask why, I don't know what to tell you haha). But as another forum post pointed out, Max and Chloe would go insane with guilt eventually if they allowed all their friends and family to be destroyed just so they could get their Happily Ever After. So there's not really a "good" ending here regardless. And yes, that's life, but by the same token we're given plenty of happy endings for hetero couples in the media. Tons of them. Why can't a pair of young queers get the same opportunity?

Jack_Forest
23rd Oct 2015, 19:11
You can play Max as if she is straight and likes Warren, yet nothing changes.

KristaD
23rd Oct 2015, 19:23
You are assume quite a bit when you say that. It is made quite clear when you play though that Maxine does not share the love Warren has for her, and as I understood it, he does understand this.

I am not sure that is putting a value on hetero or queer relationships. Given my involvement with LGBT people I have to have some doubts these are only kinds of relationships around. I've talked to or listened to lesbian, gays, trans boy and girls talk about the sexual preferences. It is really amazing how they can differ from one another, both in reason, motives and tastes. This is by no mean an simple topic. Even for an asexual like me.

Xeitgeixt
23rd Oct 2015, 19:58
You are assume quite a bit when you say that. It is made quite clear when you play though that Maxine does not share the love Warren has for her, and as I understood it, he does understand this.

I am not sure that is putting a value on hetero or queer relationships. Given my involvement with LGBT people I have to have some doubts these are only kinds of relationships around. I've talked to or listened to lesbian, gays, trans boy and girls talk about the sexual preferences. It is really amazing how they can differ from one another, both in reason, motives and tastes. This is by no mean an simple topic. Even for an asexual like me.

I'm not saying that's how it is in real life, just that, all too often, that's how it's portrayed in media. But I'd rather bring up the topic and have it discussed. Obviously LGBT relationships in real life are as diverse as cishet-only relationships, and have equally diverse results. I'm looking for more of that in games, television, movies, books... everywhere.

Tataboj
23rd Oct 2015, 20:03
You are assume quite a bit when you say that. It is made quite clear when you play though that Maxine does not share the love Warren has for her, and as I understood it, he does understand this.

I am not sure that is putting a value on hetero or queer relationships. Given my involvement with LGBT people I have to have some doubts these are only kinds of relationships around. I've talked to or listened to lesbian, gays, trans boy and girls talk about the sexual preferences. It is really amazing how they can differ from one another, both in reason, motives and tastes. This is by no mean an simple topic. Even for an asexual like me.

My Max truly shares the love Warren has for her. The game doesn't strictly tell us Chloe is lesbian/bisexual/whatever. And people who had made their opinions are sure that what they think is true.

KristaD
23rd Oct 2015, 20:10
My Max truly shares the love Warren has for her. The game doesn't strictly tell us Chloe is lesbian/bisexual/whatever. And people who had made their opinions are sure that what they think is true.

I think this is the better points the game makes, giving you enough agency to make some choices and there is how you as a player sees things, in your case loving Warren. Yeah, the game doesn't give anyone label based on sexual reference, that is left to us. :)

Xeitgeixt
23rd Oct 2015, 21:10
My Max truly shares the love Warren has for her. The game doesn't strictly tell us Chloe is lesbian/bisexual/whatever.

LOL actually, her sexuality is "whatever". You seem to think there's some crazy leap in logic involved as a prerequisite for believing Chloe was in love with Rachel, and then possibly in love with Max, when it's more like "don't bury your head in the sand and you'll see it". She's not straight, no matter what label she would go by if asked. But yeah, maybe I'm mistaken. Seriously (http://noobist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/life_is_strangetm_20150519183044-750x400.jpg), I (http://www.bliptalk.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/1e8476f0ea1917e3038e38ee187489ae.jpg) wonder (http://cdn.idigitaltimes.com/sites/idigitaltimes.com/files/styles/image_embed/public/2015/03/22/life-strange-2.jpg) where (http://gamingtrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Life-Is-Strange%E2%84%A2_20150131121214-620x349.jpg) I (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/15/may/lisep32.jpg) got (https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/tenghlom2n84pmuga3x5.png) that (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN2__BSUwAALiAL.png) very (https://40.media.tumblr.com/8782e17f4802d06a03080e395fcf447a/tumblr_nwoynjrFq51tu96k5o2_1280.jpg) clearly (https://40.media.tumblr.com/c5b8b435e6bbb695eb4935172911b543/tumblr_nwoynjrFq51tu96k5o1_1280.jpg) mistaken (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/55/7f/c4/557fc4634097aa6695003ae1dffea1c0.jpg) impression (http://i.imgur.com/IiiFtpu.jpg)...

As for Max being in love with Warren, maybe we didn't play the same nightmare sequence in episode 5.

Tataboj
23rd Oct 2015, 21:27
LOL actually, her sexuality is "whatever". You seem to think there's some crazy leap in logic involved as a prerequisite for believing Chloe was in love with Rachel, and then possibly in love with Max, when it's more like "don't bury your head in the sand and you'll see it". She's not straight, no matter what label she would go by if asked. But yeah, maybe I'm mistaken. Seriously (http://noobist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/life_is_strangetm_20150519183044-750x400.jpg), I (http://www.bliptalk.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/1e8476f0ea1917e3038e38ee187489ae.jpg) wonder (http://cdn.idigitaltimes.com/sites/idigitaltimes.com/files/styles/image_embed/public/2015/03/22/life-strange-2.jpg) where (http://gamingtrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Life-Is-Strange%E2%84%A2_20150131121214-620x349.jpg) I (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/15/may/lisep32.jpg) got (https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/tenghlom2n84pmuga3x5.png) that (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN2__BSUwAALiAL.png) very (https://40.media.tumblr.com/8782e17f4802d06a03080e395fcf447a/tumblr_nwoynjrFq51tu96k5o2_1280.jpg) clearly (https://40.media.tumblr.com/c5b8b435e6bbb695eb4935172911b543/tumblr_nwoynjrFq51tu96k5o1_1280.jpg) mistaken (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/55/7f/c4/557fc4634097aa6695003ae1dffea1c0.jpg) impression (http://i.imgur.com/IiiFtpu.jpg)...

As for Max being in love with Warren, maybe we didn't play the same nightmare sequence in episode 5.

I didn't say your impression is wrong. In fact, I was trying to say the opposite. It matters on our interpretation. Also, the screenshots you posted here might as well be BFF-ish, not only about love. Who knows? Maybe WE were choosing sexuality by our choices. :)

Xeitgeixt
23rd Oct 2015, 21:51
Also, the screenshots you posted here might as well be BFF-ish, not only about love. Who knows?

Wow, I envy your relationships with your BFFs if you make out all the time and profess your undying love afterwards. Sounds like fun! Good, clean gal-pal fun!

Honestly, there would be no debate if the same screenshots were of a heterosexual couple. It would be "Aww, look how in love they are." But because they're two women, there will always be people trying to straightwash anything that's ambiguous.

Tataboj
23rd Oct 2015, 22:03
Wow, I envy your relationships with your BFFs if you make out all the time and profess your undying love afterwards. Sounds like fun! Good, clean gal-pal fun!

Honestly, there would be no debate if the same screenshots were of a heterosexual couple. It would be "Aww, look how in love they are." But because they're two women, there will always be people trying to straightwash anything that's ambiguous.

My Max didn't profess love with Chloe. They were just BFFs. And I'm not straightwashing the ambiguous, I am doing the opposite. It is you who is doing that.

However, you have to do everything just right to kiss Chloe in the finale - and you can only do that if you're about to "kill" her.
I think they kiss (if they are in love) because they are in tense moment.

And yes, that's life, but by the same token we're given plenty of happy endings for hetero couples in the media. Tons of them. Why can't a pair of young queers get the same opportunity?
A happy ending really wouldn't fit the atmosphere, the entire game was realistically put and the happy ending would have seemed unrealistic, it's nothing else in my opinion.

As for Max being in love with Warren, maybe we didn't play the same nightmare sequence in episode 5.
That was a nightmare. Years ago, I had a dream about my beloved grandmother trying to kill me. Perhaps it didn't even represent anything about Max's feelings towards Warren.

Xeitgeixt
24th Oct 2015, 07:18
My Max didn't profess love with Chloe. They were just BFFs. And I'm not straightwashing the ambiguous, I am doing the opposite. It is you who is doing that.

I think they kiss (if they are in love) because they are in tense moment.

A happy ending really wouldn't fit the atmosphere, the entire game was realistically put and the happy ending would have seemed unrealistic, it's nothing else in my opinion.

That was a nightmare. Years ago, I had a dream about my beloved grandmother trying to kill me. Perhaps it didn't even represent anything about Max's feelings towards Warren.

First, I'll say something and then get off this. You are somewhat of a hopeless optimist if you think the horribly creepy behaviour of dream-Warren had NOTHING to do with Max's feelings about him, especially after looking in his locker. Yes, those are things he would never do outside of her dream, but clearly his advances make her very, very uncomfortable. For proof, all you have to look at is the behaviour enacted by all the other dream-versions of people she knows: they are exaggerations, but they are based on real fears she has. The dream-principal complaining that Kate's death would have been easier because he could get rid of Max, and also saying he'll worry about her death "after he gets his drink on". In real life, Wells demonstrates over and over that he finds her to be a nuisance, but maintains a façade of being nice to everyone (a paper thin one). If he were making random sexual comments about Max, like Warren does, it would make no sense and just be a general "this is a nightmare, everything's crazy". Instead, his over-the-top behaviour is an exaggeration of his real behaviour, and displays what problems Max has with it. Also, when Max inhabits Victoria's body, all the graffiti on the walls is about her being a whore and a slut and so forth. This displays Max's true feelings about her: pity, and regret that she won't just woman up and stop being nothing but a bully. So yes, unlike your unfortunate dreams about your grandmother, the dreams in LiS are supposed to give psychological insight into Max's fears (which is a tried and true storytelling method). I can't stop you from believing that nothing in the dream had anything to do with anything, just like I can't stop you from believing the moon is made of green cheese; that's totally up to you.

And I won't keep trying to convince you that the gay exists in this game, because you are 100% dead set against believing it or perceiving what is already there. This thread is supposed to be about the LGBT representation and how it may or may not be lackluster, due to Hollywood tropes that permeate our culture, so your largely baseless insisting that Warren and Max is OTP and that Chloe and Max are BFF is really beside the point, even if you were right (which I'm not conceding, even a tiny bit). So unless you have more to say about that topic, I don't see your purpose in persisting with this.

Tataboj
24th Oct 2015, 10:40
First, I'll say something and then get off this. You are somewhat of a hopeless optimist if you think the horribly creepy behaviour of dream-Warren had NOTHING to do with Max's feelings about him, especially after looking in his locker. Yes, those are things he would never do outside of her dream, but clearly his advances make her very, very uncomfortable. For proof, all you have to look at is the behaviour enacted by all the other dream-versions of people she knows: they are exaggerations, but they are based on real fears she has. The dream-principal complaining that Kate's death would have been easier because he could get rid of Max, and also saying he'll worry about her death "after he gets his drink on". In real life, Wells demonstrates over and over that he finds her to be a nuisance, but maintains a façade of being nice to everyone (a paper thin one). If he were making random sexual comments about Max, like Warren does, it would make no sense and just be a general "this is a nightmare, everything's crazy". Instead, his over-the-top behaviour is an exaggeration of his real behaviour, and displays what problems Max has with it. Also, when Max inhabits Victoria's body, all the graffiti on the walls is about her being a whore and a slut and so forth. This displays Max's true feelings about her: pity, and regret that she won't just woman up and stop being nothing but a bully. So yes, unlike your unfortunate dreams about your grandmother, the dreams in LiS are supposed to give psychological insight into Max's fears (which is a tried and true storytelling method). I can't stop you from believing that nothing in the dream had anything to do with anything, just like I can't stop you from believing the moon is made of green cheese; that's totally up to you.

And I won't keep trying to convince you that the gay exists in this game, because you are 100% dead set against believing it or perceiving what is already there. This thread is supposed to be about the LGBT representation and how it may or may not be lackluster, due to Hollywood tropes that permeate our culture, so your largely baseless insisting that Warren and Max is OTP and that Chloe and Max are BFF is really beside the point, even if you were right (which I'm not conceding, even a tiny bit). So unless you have more to say about that topic, I don't see your purpose in persisting with this.

1. Why are you so offensive against me? Seriously, what did I say?
2. I didn't want to say it, but otherwise you're not gonna understand what I am trying to say, so: I think you just simply want to see this game is against homosexuals. For example, yes, many hetero couples get a happy ending, but dozens of others don't! That's like the feminists seeing harm on women just in order of names. And please, don't take me wrong, I have nothing against gays and I didn't say anything against them in this thread.
3
Honestly, there would be no debate if the same screenshots were of a heterosexual couple. It would be "Aww, look how in love they are." But because they're two women, there will always be people trying to straightwash anything that's ambiguous.
Of course! Because two women making out isn't current, while two women friends is.
4.
Wow, I envy your relationships with your BFFs if you make out all the time and profess your undying love afterwards. Sounds like fun! Good, clean gal-pal fun!
In MY playthrough, MY Max didn't profess love with Chloe. It's likely Chloe is lesbian (or bisexual) and I didn't say anything different but Max doesn't have to. You know, I am saying both possibilities can be possible and you're saying how they can be only in love and nothing else. My Max didn't kiss Chloe in Ep 3 and also didn't kiss her in the end when she sacrificed her.
4. Warren. Why did we get a chance to kiss him if Max is afraid of him and doesn't like him? And do you know who was chasing Max in the nightmare too? Samuel. Did she think anything bad about Samuel? No! Also, why on Earth would Warren have that photo in his locker? Maybe because he LOVES her? The nightmare for sure meant something. Everything turned to symbols and so on. But that doesn't mean you have to take it verbally.

Dire87
24th Oct 2015, 11:30
I'm going to disagree with you here, OP.

1. Think about role reversal. What if Chloe was male? It would not make a difference to the story. I have best female friends as well. If you grew up together, they're like brothers or sisters to you, but you know...hormoooones. It wouldn't be all that different, and that person might still require to die (also she doesn't have to die...)

2. Warren's advances are not creepy imho (the nightmare sequence is not real after all). He's a dork, but he's so in love with Max, but she doesn't even realize it at first, then later says "ewww" and sees him just as a friend, but throughout the episodes this changes again (not just with the kiss at the end). It's pretty normal teenager behaviour really. Also, you don't HAVE to kiss him. It's an option. Why is it more difficult to kiss Chloe? Because it's not necessarily implied that they are somewhat in love with each other. Chloe loves Rachel after all. Until Rachel is found dead, I think there would have never been even the slightest chance. The dare kiss was more or less just that...a dare, which surprised her a lot if you went through with it...and I think that's really the only requirement for the end kiss: Do the dare, don't kiss Warren?

I'm pretty positive that the end has nothing to do with any LGBT "bashing" or misrepresentation, but your story just needs to go somewhere. LiS is a tragedy, so no matter if 2 girls, 2 boys, or 1 each...someone was bound to die.

Xeitgeixt
24th Oct 2015, 15:25
I didn't want to say it, but otherwise you're not gonna understand what I am trying to say, so: I think you just simply want to see this game is against homosexuals. For example, yes, many hetero couples get a happy ending, but dozens of others don't! That's like the feminists seeing harm on women just in order of names. And please, don't take me wrong, I have nothing against gays and I didn't say anything against them in this thread.

Of course! Because two women making out isn't current, while two women friends is.

Yeah, because in your playthrough you avoided anything remotely not-straight like the plague, even though they are the natural choices. No matter how you want to look at it, there is an entire "museum of memories" devoted to Chloe in the dream sequence, and Warren gets no such treatment regardless of your choices. I'm pointing out things that are in the game, not wildly spinning fantastic theories. It's all there. And I wanted to critique the LGBT representation in the game, specifically the ending, not claim it's "against homosexuals". Your perception is too cut-and-dry. I can approve of aspects and be disappointed by others.


1. Think about role reversal. What if Chloe was male? It would not make a difference to the story. I have best female friends as well. If you grew up together, they're like brothers or sisters to you, but you know...hormoooones. It wouldn't be all that different, and that person might still require to die (also she doesn't have to die...)

2. Warren's advances are not creepy imho (the nightmare sequence is not real after all). He's a dork, but he's so in love with Max, but she doesn't even realize it at first, then later says "ewww" and sees him just as a friend, but throughout the episodes this changes again (not just with the kiss at the end). It's pretty normal teenager behaviour really. Also, you don't HAVE to kiss him. It's an option. Why is it more difficult to kiss Chloe? Because it's not necessarily implied that they are somewhat in love with each other. Chloe loves Rachel after all. Until Rachel is found dead, I think there would have never been even the slightest chance. The dare kiss was more or less just that...a dare, which surprised her a lot if you went through with it...and I think that's really the only requirement for the end kiss: Do the dare, don't kiss Warren?

I'm pretty positive that the end has nothing to do with any LGBT "bashing" or misrepresentation, but your story just needs to go somewhere. LiS is a tragedy, so no matter if 2 girls, 2 boys, or 1 each...someone was bound to die.

*sigh* If Chloe was a man nobody would be having this discussion, because it would be one of a million straight love stories. But LGBT ones are in short supply, and because of this, how you portray them DOES affect public views. In a society where queers are already just barely allowed to get married (and in fact, in France where Dontnod is based, it's an even more complicated issue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_France)), the Bury Your Gays trope is more harmful. Yes, I hear what you're saying - that this game was doomed to end in tragedy from the start, it's part of their narrative and they should have creative freedoms, blah blah blah. Never ONCE have I said they did this on purpose, or they're homophobic. I fully believe they were trying to craft a progressive modern tale in which your sexuality is what you make of it. HOWEVER, sacrificing the more obviously lesbian character (if you're not in denial and keep fighting for Warren's affections instead of returning Chloe's) is an unconscious writing choice that happens time and time again, and it has the unfortunate subliminal message of, "If you're gay, you pay." Max is the possibly-bisexual character, depending on your choices. She makes it. Chloe is the one who dated Rachel, and would be open to dating Max. She dies.

BONUS: not only that, but Rachel, who is implied to have dated both Chloe and Frank, is also bisexual, and also dies. Depending on your choices, she's actually the only one who has to die.

As for "she doesn't have to die", the other alternative is destroying the lives and homes of everyone else they care about?? Also, that ending is much, much shorter. You know the ending you're supposed to pick is the one to sacrifice Chloe.

KristaD
24th Oct 2015, 17:06
I can't see any evidence Rachel and/or Chloe die in the game because of their sexual preference. Rachel loses her life when Nathan gives her an overdose when drugging her when he is doing his sick photo fetish thingie, Chloe dies when Mr. Jefferson kills her to remove her as threat (she is holding a gun after all), or on the behest of herself to save Arcadia Bay / or to die happy in the case of alternative Chloe.

Tataboj
24th Oct 2015, 19:30
Yeah, because in your playthrough you avoided anything remotely not-straight like the plague, even though they are the natural choices.

Sure, I didn't kiss Chloe and... umm... That's it. I wanted Max to be with Warren. Sure, majority of people wanted Pricefield, but I prefer Max being hetero, mainly because I can better relate to her. What a crime.

No matter how you want to look at it, there is an entire "museum of memories" devoted to Chloe in the dream sequence, and Warren gets no such treatment regardless of your choices.
Yeah, because Chloe is the main character, while Warren is the side character! Not so hard. Besides, all the things Max and Chloe did made me feel like "you were away for 5 years, let's catch up everything we haven't done."

I'm pointing out things that are in the game, not wildly spinning fantastic theories. It's all there.
Can you tell me where is in the game statement about Chloe being bisexual? I think that too, but it's just your impression, a "fantastic theory"
Also, your argumentation is based on the similar statement like: "The game doesn't treat white and black race equally because there aren't any black main characters" or "The game shows that women are worse then men because Chloe dies (and if not, the town will be destroyed)."

And I wanted to critique the LGBT representation in the game, specifically the ending, not claim it's "against homosexuals"
I'm sorry about that. I didn't want to say it that way.

What's funny is, in your response to Dire87 you're saying the same things I am saying, yet for some reason you keep being offensive to me.

Xeitgeixt
26th Oct 2015, 17:18
Can you tell me where is in the game statement about Chloe being bisexual? I think that too, but it's just your impression, a "fantastic theory"

What's funny is, in your response to Dire87 you're saying the same things I am saying, yet for some reason you keep being offensive to me.

If you're offended by me arguing my points, then it's because you dislike them, or secretly know I have a point that you don't want to concede. I haven't said anything specifically inflammatory about you as a person, merely commented on your viewpoints as they relate to this game.

And I'm so tired of that expectation. Straight characters can get by on simply existing, but an LGBT character has to wear a giant flashing sign that says "YEP, TOTALLY GAY" or say the actual words "I want to be in a non-heterosexual relationship with you", or else no one gives their sexuality any validity. A prime example of heteronormativity; queers are expected to prove their queerness, even in a game in which a character literally says "I'll always love you" right after a romantic kiss, or else they're just straight. "BFFs". This is the same kind of mentality that makes bisexuals feel erased if they're dating someone of the opposite gender; by not being "gay enough" to prove it, they get accused of being straight people who "just want to be cool" and aren't allowed to be who they know they are inside. It's damaging, both in media and in real life.


I can't see any evidence Rachel and/or Chloe die in the game because of their sexual preference. Rachel loses her life when Nathan gives her an overdose when drugging her when he is doing his sick photo fetish thingie, Chloe dies when Mr. Jefferson kills her to remove her as threat (she is holding a gun after all), or on the behest of herself to save Arcadia Bay / or to die happy in the case of alternative Chloe.

It's metaphorical, Krista. You're viewing it too literally. I'm not saying anyone actually led a literal anti-gay witchhunt within the game, and if you came away from reading my above comments with that impression, then you might want to reread. There's a difference between the events as they played out between the characters - in which there is no homophobia, except the internalised "gay panic" Max perhaps feels that prevents her from being more open about her (potential) feelings for Chloe, and vice versa, though she doesn't mention it - and the unintentional mentality behind how the WRITERS portrayed things. Dontnod accidentally Buried Their Gays, not Nathan, not Jefferson, not any of the characters themselves.

Tataboj
26th Oct 2015, 18:03
I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I've never said Max and Chloe cannot be bisexual (and Chloe is probably lesbian), I just think Max can't be homosexual, since she likes boys. On the other hand, you stated that Max doesn't like Warren (why could she have kissed him then?!) and that he creeps her out. Also since we are Max, I am almost sure it leaves her sexuality to our interpretation.

To the topic: You. Are. Biased. Did Kate die? Dontnod buried her Christians. Did Rachel die? Dontnod buried her women. Doesn't matter Nathan and Jefferson died, you will keep saying the death depends on sexuality.

Xeitgeixt
26th Oct 2015, 18:24
I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I've never said Max and Chloe cannot be bisexual (and Chloe is probably lesbian), I just think Max can't be homosexual, since she likes boys. On the other hand, you stated that Max doesn't like Warren (why could she have kissed him then?!) and that he creeps her out. Also since we are Max, I am almost sure it leaves her sexuality to our interpretation.

To the topic: You. Are. Biased. Did Kate die? Dontnod buried her Christians. Did Rachel die? Dontnod buried her women. Doesn't matter Nathan and Jefferson died, you will keep saying the death depends on sexuality.

Kate doesn't die if you pay her the slightest amount of attention... so even though I could get into a whole other topic about Kate metaphorically having to pay for being used as a sexual object against her will, I won't, because she DOES survive if you care. And as I already said, Rachel's the only other (potentially - I hate that I keep having to say potentially but you seem to need that) LGBT character besides Max and Chloe. And Nathan and Jefferson die because they are the villains of the story; it's an entirely separate reason. Jefferson doesn't even die if you lie to David, so it's moot in his case.

And if we're going to start throwing accusations about personal bias around, then you're biased because you "need" Max to be straight. Even in a world in which only a tiny handful of games have a protagonist who is anything besides heterosexual, in which there are thousands of other games where they are straight, you need her to be straight and in love with a stalker. Even when it's clear from the direction of the story, the kissing, the journal entries Max writes, that she has feelings for Chloe. Did it ever occur to you that even if you don't pick the options to kiss Chloe that Max could still be a bisexual who's just not acting on her feelings? Of course not. Because if someone doesn't behave in a "queer enough" manner, they're just straight and you can relax and turn off your higher brain functions, because all is as it should be. The world is straight again.

KristaD
26th Oct 2015, 18:34
I not sure if I am taking it too literally, I was pointing out the fact the "game" hence Dontnod is not killing off their non-heterosexual characters. I am not sure how much all this really matters, the leaves it to us to attach labels to these characters, this didn't even cross my mind when I was playing though the game....

Xeitgeixt
26th Oct 2015, 19:00
I not sure if I am taking it too literally, I was pointing out the fact the "game" hence Dontnod is not killing off their non-heterosexual characters. I am not sure how much all this really matters, the leaves it to us to attach labels to these characters, this didn't even cross my mind when I was playing though the game....

Which was my point of this thread, to further delve into the issue. I know these are things that you can more easily miss if you're focused entirely on the story/gameplay. From the beginning I wasn't asking the question "Is there homosexuality/bisexuality in the game?" My question was "ASSUMING there is, then how do we feel about the ending?" Debate is essential for the progress of the wider mentality across cultures.

KristaD
26th Oct 2015, 19:07
Which was my point of this thread, to further delve into the issue. I know these are things that you can more easily miss if you're focused entirely on the story/gameplay. From the beginning I wasn't asking the question "Is there homosexuality/bisexuality in the game?" My question was "ASSUMING there is, then how do we feel about the ending?" Debate is essential for the progress of the wider mentality across cultures.

I feel fine with it, the same rules apply for those that are shoved under the LGBT umbrella terms as the rest of humanity, they die as well. Though at a frighting rate and for some scary/naive reasons, though this seem to be slowly improving, at least in some countries.

Xeitgeixt
26th Oct 2015, 20:20
I feel fine with it, the same rules apply for those that are shoved under the LGBT umbrella terms as the rest of humanity, they die as well. Though at a frighting rate and for some scary/naive reasons, though this seem to be slowly improving, at least in some countries.

Ah, but that's WHY it's important to show happy endings with LGBT characters - because there's still a higher mortality rate for LGBT people than hetero people. Yes, it's not obvious, but there's this kind of subliminal message that it sends when storytellers kill them off in everything... I'm trying to think how best to explain. If you show lesbians being happy together, living a normal life at the end of their story, more conservative people start to say "Wow, they're a real couple and not just sinners." That helps there be more acceptance of different sexualities. The flipside of that is, if you show them being killed off all the time (regardless of WHY they're killed off), even though for LGBT people (or even just straight people who have no agenda either way) it's "Oh my God, so tragic"... for anti-LGBT bigots it's "Haha, they got what they deserved for being gay". It's a subliminal message, not an overt one.

(And for the hundredth time, I'm not saying Dontnod used the Bury Your Gays trope on purpose. Just that a lot of writers do it all the time.)

Tataboj
26th Oct 2015, 20:23
Kate doesn't die if you pay her the slightest amount of attention... so even though I could get into a whole other topic about Kate metaphorically having to pay for being used as a sexual object against her will, I won't, because she DOES survive if you care. And as I already said, Rachel's the only other (potentially - I hate that I keep having to say potentially but you seem to need that) LGBT character besides Max and Chloe. And Nathan and Jefferson die because they are the villains of the story; it's an entirely separate reason. Jefferson doesn't even die if you lie to David, so it's moot in his case.

And if we're going to start throwing accusations about personal bias around, then you're biased because you "need" Max to be straight. Even in a world in which only a tiny handful of games have a protagonist who is anything besides heterosexual, in which there are thousands of other games where they are straight, you need her to be straight and in love with a stalker. Even when it's clear from the direction of the story, the kissing, the journal entries Max writes, that she has feelings for Chloe. Did it ever occur to you that even if you don't pick the options to kiss Chloe that Max could still be a bisexual who's just not acting on her feelings? Of course not. Because if someone doesn't behave in a "queer enough" manner, they're just straight and you can relax and turn off your higher brain functions, because all is as it should be. The world is straight again.

Slightest amount of attention? Yeah, sure. And choosing between two quotes from Bible is what?

Chloe also doesn't even have to die - just save her and sacrifice the town.

And now you're attacking my preference. I am hetero, so I want Max to be hetero. What's wrong with that? Am i attacking that you prefer them to be bisexual/homosexual? You are refusing that there are people not screaming "Oh, we can be gays here, let's be as homosexual as we can!" And why don't people always think about gays when there are two (wo)men? I'll say you this. I have diabetes mellitus. Type 1. It is genetic and it doesn't have anything to do with obesity. Yet people keep saying "How is it possible you aren't obese?" Do you know why I keep telling them reasons without being angry to them? Because this type of diabetes is rare. Only 2% of all diabetics are type 1, so I can't expect people to think about this type when talking about diabetes. I hope you know what I mean, even though this example isn't 100% accurate since everybody knows what homosexuality is. Writers were thinking about it as "a protagonist's best friend can die, not "a homosexual can die". They didn't favor any group of people, it's just life. If the world accepts your point of view, it will be like: "What? We have a homosexual in our game? Keep in mind he MUST NOT die!" "But the story will be nothing if (s)he doesn't die." "Don't make him/her homosexual then."
I think I will do you a favor and stop posting here, this discussion isn't moving anywhere.

Xeitgeixt
26th Oct 2015, 20:41
And now you're attacking my preference. I am hetero, so I want Max to be hetero. What's wrong with that?

I think I will do you a favor and stop posting here, this discussion isn't moving anywhere.

Good, because from the start you have been dragging down the discussion by going off-topic and making false equivalencies. You having diabetes doesn't apply to this discussion in the least, and while that is unfortunate and I wish you the best of health, you're using it as a ploy to distract from the topic at hand and draw sympathy for your situation.

And spare me your hetero tears. The LGBT community has had to be content with identifying with ifs and maybes in 99% of media, since they are only JUST starting to get some consistent and decent representation in the past decade. And it's still usually one token gay character in a cast of straight people. So no, you don't get to straightwash an obviously bisexual character because it's your "preference" when yours is the majority, and you have a legion of straight characters in media with which you can identify.

KristaD
26th Oct 2015, 20:47
Ah, but that's WHY it's important to show happy endings with LGBT characters - because there's still a higher mortality rate for LGBT people than hetero people. Yes, it's not obvious, but there's this kind of subliminal message that it sends when storytellers kill them off in everything... I'm trying to think how best to explain. If you show lesbians being happy together, living a normal life at the end of their story, more conservative people start to say "Wow, they're a real couple and not just sinners." That helps there be more acceptance of different sexualities. The flipside of that is, if you show them being killed off all the time (regardless of WHY they're killed off), even though for LGBT people (or even just straight people who have no agenda either way) it's "Oh my God, so tragic"... for anti-LGBT bigots it's "Haha, they got what they deserved for being gay". It's a subliminal message, not an overt one.

(And for the hundredth time, I'm not saying Dontnod used the Bury Your Gays trope on purpose. Just that a lot of writers do it all the time.)

I can understand one, I have my doubts everyone, fortunately is not blind to that subliminal message and see through it. I got plenty of friends and acquaintances that do not really care if people are LBGT or not.

I think some of the LBGT can use a happy ending now and then, but I dread that the internet will go a blaze with the bigots using their keyboard of spew out some poison.

I think the possible LBGT representation in Life is Strange is a good example of well written and relatable bisexual characters (Chloe and Rachel), so even as Life is Strange doesn't offer us an clearly defined happy ending, it does show is can be done.

Tataboj
26th Oct 2015, 21:53
.You having diabetes doesn't apply to this discussion in the least, and while that is unfortunate and I wish you the best of health, you're using it as a ploy to distract from the topic at hand and draw sympathy for your situation.
Okay, maybe my English isn't that good. I really, really wasn't trying to draw sympathy for my situation. I was trying to show you that if you are in minority, other people won't think about that minority.


And it's still usually one token gay character in a cast of straight people
And do you know why? Because gays are present in 4%, of course there will always be much more straight people in cast!

So no, you don't get to straightwash an obviously bisexual character because it's your "preference"
I already did and even you didn't stop me.

Good, because from the start you have been dragging down the discussion by going off-topic and making false equivalencies.
Woah woah woah. Just look up. I had about THREE sentences about Warren, while you wrote the entire PARAGRAPH about him and then stated I am off topic. Seriously, who was going off topic here? Also, from the beginning, you are attacking me because you think I'm not thinking gay enough and how dare I not kiss the same sex everywhere I can.
This game has nothing of your "bury your gays". Chloe doesn't even have to die, so this entire thread is off topic, since it has nothing to do with the game.

when yours is the majority, and you have a legion of straight characters in media with which you can identify.
I was totally fine with my straight Max and now, because of you, she can't be straight anymore. :(

KristaD
26th Oct 2015, 22:03
I was totally fine with my straight Max and now, because of you, she can't be straight anymore. :(

I hope you are more certain of yourself than that. :)

Xeitgeixt
26th Oct 2015, 22:49
I hope you are more certain of yourself than that. :)

LOL thank you, I was just thinking that. Why should I apologise for saying water is wet and dirt is dirty, just because it shocks them?

KristaD
26th Oct 2015, 22:56
LOL thank you, I was just thinking that. Why should I apologise for saying water is wet and dirt is dirty, just because it shocks them?

I had to learn this lesson this quite early in life, even I was prancing about when I was 17-18 in leather troucers, Marilyn Manson tshirt, with various uncommon jewelry and what not, if I don't stand up for myself no else will do. It is really amazing what stories people can come up with just because I tend to stand out. Just keep that behind your ear (Icelandic saying) :)

Xeitgeixt
26th Oct 2015, 23:36
I had to learn this lesson this quite early in life, even I was prancing about when I was 17-18 in leather troucers, Marilyn Manson tshirt, with various uncommon jewelry and what not, if I don't stand up for myself no else will do. It is really amazing what stories people can come up with just because I tend to stand out. Just keep that behind your ear (Icelandic saying) :)

Sounds like we both had similar phases in similar eras of our lives... I still have a Manson t-shirt somewhere, haha. But yeah, if your belief in something is shaken by one person commenting on the internet, then it didn't have a very solid foundation in the first place.

Tataboj
27th Oct 2015, 06:58
Sounds like we both had similar phases in similar eras of our lives... I still have a Manson t-shirt somewhere, haha. But yeah, if your belief in something is shaken by one person commenting on the internet, then it didn't have a very solid foundation in the first place.

Umm, do you know what sarcasm and hyperbole means?

But of course you react on my last little sentence, that isn't even a little off topic. *SARCASM

KristaD
27th Oct 2015, 09:25
Sounds like we both had similar phases in similar eras of our lives... I still have a Manson t-shirt somewhere, haha. But yeah, if your belief in something is shaken by one person commenting on the internet, then it didn't have a very solid foundation in the first place.

Yeah, sounds like we might have a thing or 2 in common, I don't have my Manson tees though, they kinda got worn out, my clothes generally don't last for 17 years or so. :)

iReturnVideotapes
27th Oct 2015, 11:09
I had a feeling this thread would wind up as another victimization case but decided to give OP the benefit of the doubt to hear them out. Unfortunately after reading through everything I was proven right. The same typical woe is gay people rhetoric for being marginalized because "LOOK HOW HARD IT IS TO KISS CHLOE!". Ridiculous. You see marginalization because you want to. No one would have given this a second thought if you haden't tried to make something out of it. Nice job on Tataboj for trying to reason with them but it appears it's futile.

KristaD
27th Oct 2015, 11:24
I had a feeling this thread would wind up as another victimization case but decided to give OP the benefit of the doubt to hear them out. Unfortunately after reading through everything I was proven right. The same typical woe is gay people rhetoric for being marginalized because "LOOK HOW HARD IT IS TO KISS CHLOE!". Ridiculous. You see marginalization because you want to. No one would have given this a second thought if you haden't tried to make something out of it. Nice job on Tataboj for trying to reason with them but it appears it's futile.

Could you explain to what point you are trying to make here ?

iReturnVideotapes
27th Oct 2015, 11:27
Could you explain to what point you are trying to make here ?

Sure. OP is looking for a problem where one doesn't exist. It's in my post.

KristaD
27th Oct 2015, 11:40
Sure. OP is looking for a problem where one doesn't exist. It's in my post.

Try enough, but Tataboj isn't the only one speaking up against it.

iReturnVideotapes
27th Oct 2015, 11:44
Try enough, but Tataboj isn't the only one speaking up against it.

Did you want credit too?

KristaD
27th Oct 2015, 12:12
Did you want credit too?

Nope, just that you don't make it sound like people hold an opinion that they actually don't, if you please. :cool:

iReturnVideotapes
27th Oct 2015, 12:18
Nope, just that you don't make it sound like people hold an opinion that they actually don't, if you please. :cool:

I read through the entire thread. If I make it sound that way, it's because that's the way it is. OP has an opinion that the game did something to marginalize LGBT people by making it harder to kiss Chloe than it was to kiss Warren. I'm simply pointing out that they didn't, and that OP is looking into things that don't exist. It's already been laid out why they were wrong. They just can't see it.

KristaD
27th Oct 2015, 13:07
I read through the entire thread. If I make it sound that way, it's because that's the way it is. OP has an opinion that the game did something to marginalize LGBT people by making it harder to kiss Chloe than it was to kiss Warren. I'm simply pointing out that they didn't, and that OP is looking into things that don't exist. It's already been laid out why they were wrong. They just can't see it.

I'm not talking about the OP here (witch has some strange perceptions regarding things, I might go far as to say he has predisposed views). But there are other people giving their views as well that do not agree with his opinion about how the game marginalizes LBGT people.

I don't understand how one person can have this view and somewhat dodges anything that doesn't agree with his point, but I'll sure speak up against it.

:)

P.S.

I'm not sure if it harder to kiss Chloe than Warren, I did both during my play though without any difficulty.

Xeitgeixt
27th Oct 2015, 16:24
I had a feeling this thread would wind up as another victimization case but decided to give OP the benefit of the doubt to hear them out. Unfortunately after reading through everything I was proven right. The same typical woe is gay people rhetoric for being marginalized because "LOOK HOW HARD IT IS TO KISS CHLOE!". Ridiculous. You see marginalization because you want to. No one would have given this a second thought if you haden't tried to make something out of it. Nice job on Tataboj for trying to reason with them but it appears it's futile.

http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2015/1/14/tumblr_inline_ni7eyy8ngC1t5kjw7.gif

Thanks for making my point for me, though: No one would have given this a second thought. If you came into this thread expecting to do anything but discuss the possible shortcomings of LGBT representation in the game, then I don't know what you're even doing here, since that was the whole point? To pick that apart? Go comment somewhere else if you don't want to talk about this???

And I never said anything about marginalization; that's a different topic that doesn't apply to this game. For somebody accusing someone else of "the same typical rhetoric", you sure are trotting out buzzwords without using them accurately.

iReturnVideotapes
27th Oct 2015, 16:30
http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2015/1/14/tumblr_inline_ni7eyy8ngC1t5kjw7.gif

Thanks for making my point for me, though: No one would have given this a second thought. If you came into this thread expecting to do anything but discuss the possible shortcomings of LGBT representation in the game, then I don't know what you're even doing here, since that was the whole point? To pick that apart? Go comment somewhere else if you don't want to talk about this???

And I never said anything about marginalization; that's a different topic that doesn't apply to this game. For somebody accusing someone else of "the same typical rhetoric", you sure are trotting out buzzwords without using them accurately.

The only reason I'm not talking is because there's nothing else to say that hasn't already been said. You see a problem with the way the developers handled the issue of LGBT politics because it was somehow harder for you to get a kiss out of Chloe than it was to get one out of Warren. I mean listen to the accusation alone. It's absurd. On a scale of third world to first world problems this is off the charts

Xeitgeixt
27th Oct 2015, 16:51
The only reason I'm not talking is because there's nothing else to say that hasn't already been said. You see a problem with the way the developers handled the issue of LGBT politics because it was somehow harder for you to get a kiss out of Chloe than it was to get one out of Warren. I mean listen to the accusation alone. It's absurd. On a scale of third world to first world problems this is off the charts

"The only reason I'm not talking" You and I have a different definition of "not talking", haha.

Again, your "first world problem" comment is off topic. If you want to discuss the situation in Somalia, start a thread for that. It should be discussed, it's terrible, but that's not what this thread is for.

iReturnVideotapes
27th Oct 2015, 17:01
"The only reason I'm not talking" You and I have a different definition of "not talking", haha.

Again, your "first world problem" comment is off topic. If you want to discuss the situation in Somalia, start a thread for that. It should be discussed, it's terrible, but that's not what this thread is for.

Right. THIS thread is to complain about a single kiss and how hard it was to get one out of Chloe and how the developers really did a disservice to the LGBT community because of that. And I have nothing against honest criticism, but this isn't honest. It's petty and trivial. You're nitpicking and I don't think that's very fair to the developers that poured their heart and soul into this game.

Xeitgeixt
27th Oct 2015, 17:07
Right. THIS thread is to complain about a single kiss and how hard it was to get one out of Chloe and how the developers really did a disservice to the LGBT community because of that. And I have nothing against honest criticism, but this isn't honest. It's petty and trivial. You're nitpicking and I don't think that's very fair to the developers that poured their heart and soul into this game.

Wow, okay. So you somehow missed that the point of my original post wasn't the kiss, but the death toll. Because you "read all of it". Which would also include the multiple times I said that it's nothing against Dontnod as a company, and that I never said they were being *******s or anything. If they can't handle some honest criticism (which this is, regardless of your half-baked opinion) they shouldn't put out content; that's how media works. Sorry, not sorry.

Also, I'll reply again when somebody has something to say about the actual subject. Wasting time with petty squabbling about things that are beside the point wasn't what I was looking forward to when I started it, but then again, it's the internet. I guess I was just hoping this forum was slightly above Youtube comments in that regard.

iReturnVideotapes
27th Oct 2015, 17:13
Wow, okay. So you somehow missed that the point of my original post wasn't the kiss, but the death toll. Because you "read all of it". Which would also include the multiple times I said that it's nothing against Dontnod as a company, and that I never said they were being *******s or anything. If they can't handle some honest criticism (which this is, regardless of your half-baked opinion) they shouldn't put out content; that's how media works. Sorry, not sorry.

Also, I'll reply again when somebody has something to say about the actual subject. Wasting time with petty squabbling about things that are beside the point wasn't what I was looking forward to when I started it, but then again, it's the internet. I guess I was just hoping this forum was slightly above Youtube comments in that regard.

You can say "nothing against dontnod" all you want but throughout the thread, even in the face of reason, you chose to push an agenda that had no business being here. You want this to be a problem. You're making a mountain out of an ant hill. And from what I've seen, the forum is above youtube comments with many civil and reasonable people discussing the game with fair mind, but it's clearly not above tumblr politics.

Tataboj
27th Oct 2015, 17:38
"The only reason I'm not talking" You and I have a different definition of "not talking", haha.

Again, your "first world problem" comment is off topic. If you want to discuss the situation in Somalia, start a thread for that. It should be discussed, it's terrible, but that's not what this thread is for.

You really aren't good in examples, are you?


Also, I'll reply again when somebody has something to say about the actual subject. Wasting time with petty squabbling about things that are beside the point wasn't what I was looking forward to when I started it, but then again, it's the internet. I guess I was just hoping this forum was slightly above Youtube comments in that regard.
You were off topic whole time, friend.
See how horrible it is reacting to one or two sentences of the entire long post?