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LegacyOfKayn
23rd Oct 2015, 17:17
The sent is the most OP vamp class,no1 can deny that,and since u removed the knockdown from bulwark they started spamming it again,i had 3 games at leagues tonight and 2 of them were full sentinel on the vamp side and resulted in very frustrating losses.
My suggestion is:Give the bulwark the knockdown abillity back BUT let the tyrants to pass trough it,tyrant is a big,slow target,easy to shot down and i agree that mostly nothing passes trough bulwark but if u add charge to the list of the abillities that can counter it,it's more than enough,anyway,sentinel spamming has to go and when the knockdown was on,only the skilled players played sent,and was fun now all the nobs spam it and it's frustrating as hell.

kLauE187
23rd Oct 2015, 17:21
bleed talent is broken but other than that sent is fine. people just cant dodge.

BlitzingLlama
23rd Oct 2015, 17:40
The sent is the most OP vamp class,no1 can deny that,and since u removed the knockdown from bulwark they started spamming it again,i had 3 games at leagues tonight and 2 of them were full sentinel on the vamp side and resulted in very frustrating losses.
My suggestion is:Give the bulwark the knockdown abillity back BUT let the tyrants to pass trough it,tyrant is a big,slow target,easy to shot down and i agree that mostly nothing passes trough bulwark but if u add charge to the list of the abillities that can counter it,it's more than enough,anyway,sentinel spamming has to go and when the knockdown was on,only the skilled players played sent,and was fun now all the nobs spam it and it's frustrating as hell.if you can't kill an unskilled sentinel...that say's more about you than it does the unskilled sentinel.

enkaku-silence-
23rd Oct 2015, 18:00
I actually liked how people started playing more tactical with the Bulwark knocking down Sentinels. I played Sentinel and Vanguard a lot and I saw some nice stuff like Deceivers using control mind on me to let the Tyrant or Sentinel get in.
Also when I played Sentinel I just tried to avoid the Vanguard.

Nosgoth needs more tactical gameplay. It can have it and it has it in ESL, but I feel like most players play a certain class and don't change. I had teams with three Scouts against Summoners and Deceivers. Not a good idea.

What I am seeing now is that players don't want classes to play off against each other. They don't want to act as a team.
Why not make the whole game 4 Reavers against 4 Hunters and skip the whole thing with the classes?

River_
23rd Oct 2015, 18:32
What blows my mind is that people just do not know how to counter sentinel, and get mad when playing against 3 birds. If they go mass sentinel, you go mass prophet. Support prophet that is (just to clearify, run eldrich shield). Prophet has precise guns (causing easy chipping), can hex them out of their kidnap/abduct (saving your teammates, and in most cases, completely destroying the sentinel, since he has to land in the middle of all), and even if he does take of with your teammate, you just shield him and its fine. No fall damage, and if you run bloodweaver, probably even the puncture combo will only damage you for 50.

To sum it up: Switch to appropriate classes. Alchemist rarely works against mass sent, but Prophet should do just fine. Don't be stubborn, and CHANGE YOUR CLASS!

LegacyOfKayn
23rd Oct 2015, 18:42
if you can't kill an unskilled sentinel...that say's more about you than it does the unskilled sentinel.

Wow that comment actually made me laugh:)) i hope that's a joke at least,so i'm supposed to kill off 4 sentinels on my own?:)) we all have to take into consideration MM can't put us with players of our lvl in the same team all the time bcuz nosgoth has a low player base so it's only normal we get nobs in our team most of the time at leagues but the point of this whole topic was about sentinel spamming and that bulwark could counter that with the knockdown part...and u tell me that i can't kill a low skill sentinel:))) nice 1 man


What blows my mind is that people just do not know how to counter sentinel, and get mad when playing against 3 birds. If they go mass sentinel, you go mass prophet. Support prophet that is (just to clearify, run eldrich shield). Prophet has precise guns (causing easy chipping), can hex them out of their kidnap/abduct (saving your teammates, and in most cases, completely destroying the sentinel, since he has to land in the middle of all), and even if he does take of with your teammate, you just shield him and its fine. No fall damage, and if you run bloodweaver, probably even the puncture combo will only damage you for 50.

To sum it up: Switch to appropriate classes. Alchemist rarely works against mass sent, but Prophet should do just fine. Don't be stubborn, and CHANGE YOUR CLASS!

Totally agree,now let me ask u,what should i do if i have a noob team that can't aim? sure i shield 1 of them,the other 2 die and then i do the same,i only have 1 shield and 1 hex that probably won't do mutch bcuz i can't drop him alone bfore he takes the 300 dmg that dispels the hex,again the point is 4 sentinels r OP and frustrating at low lvls and bulwark was a good counter,at high lvl u don't play 4 sents so that won't affect high lvl plays,only stop sent spamming.

TheDreamcrusher
23rd Oct 2015, 19:18
New players die to sentinels because new players don't know when to use disabling abilities or how to save team mates from abductions.

River_
23rd Oct 2015, 19:25
New players die to sentinels because new players don't know when to use disabling abilities or how to save team mates from abductions.

Yeah, but that is why they are called 'new' players. They should learn how to deal with these situations. Its like saying: Nerf that a Charge can move around, because people don't know how to time the dodge roll. If we have to nerf everything for new players to be fair, then every vampire class will be nerfed.



Totally agree,now let me ask u,what should i do if i have a noob team that can't aim? sure i shield 1 of them,the other 2 die and then i do the same,i only have 1 shield and 1 hex that probably won't do mutch bcuz i can't drop him alone bfore he takes the 300 dmg that dispels the hex,again the point is 4 sentinels r OP and frustrating at low lvls and bulwark was a good counter,at high lvl u don't play 4 sents so that won't affect high lvl plays,only stop sent spamming.

Okay, but then you complain about a sentinel LOOKING OP, when you just have a bad team. I take it you know that one good scout makes a lot of senti's seem UP, right? But in this case, it does not look like the sentinel itself is OP, but class spam is. Because 4 sentinel might be OP, but so is 4 enrage tyrant, and 4 deciever. And in this case, not the class should be nerfed, but the class spam. So I propose we add the new class limitation of CTB, and just implant it in Nosgoth in general, and see how that goes.

LegacyOfKayn
23rd Oct 2015, 19:48
Class limitation would work for me as well,as i said my problem is with senti spam,not the sentinel itself,as for nerfs i didn't say anything about no nerf,i simply suggested the knockdown part for bulwark back and to make it possible for tyrant charge to get by it so that it's not op.
The logic behind this i simple:nobs play senti bcuz it's easy,very fast and hard to hit and does high dmg so they spam it in order to win.
For the nobs in the human team it's not as easy to hit a high speed sentinel with hex/warbow/bola etc bcuz it requires good aiming,bulwark doesn't.
So,nobs vampire pick senti bcuz is better than most vamp classes and easy to play,nobs on human side pick vang bcuz it counter's senti (by bulwark ofc) and doesn't require good aim.

Blackdeathteal
23rd Oct 2015, 19:52
bleed talent is broken but other than that sent is fine. people just cant dodge.
HA ! Puncture cast time is over abused and the main reason you see sentinals at all .

TheDreamcrusher
23rd Oct 2015, 20:03
Yeah, but that is why they are called 'new' players. They should learn how to deal with these situations. Its like saying: Nerf that a Charge can move around, because people don't know how to time the dodge roll. If we have to nerf everything for new players to be fair, then every vampire class will be nerfed.

I didn't say nerf anything. I was responding to the anecdotes about bad teams versus sentinels.

Ygdrasel
24th Oct 2015, 20:22
no1 can deny that

OP immediately closed off to feedback and dissenting opinions. Way to go.


Wow that comment actually made me laugh i hope that's a joke at least,so i'm supposed to kill off 4 sentinels on my own?

Dumb question. You have teammates. "But they're newbs!" You're their teammate. Teach them.


nobs play senti bcuz it's easy...nobs vampire pick senti bcuz is better than most vamp classes and easy to play...

A) "Nob" is not a thing.
B) Sentinels are not easy, not if you're out to play well. Your team just happens to be no good so the Sent team doesn't need to play well to beat you.

SonixSquad
25th Oct 2015, 03:42
What blows my mind is that people just do not know how to counter sentinel, and get mad when playing against 3 birds. If they go mass sentinel, you go mass prophet. Support prophet that is (just to clearify, run eldrich shield). Prophet has precise guns (causing easy chipping), can hex them out of their kidnap/abduct (saving your teammates, and in most cases, completely destroying the sentinel, since he has to land in the middle of all), and even if he does take of with your teammate, you just shield him and its fine. No fall damage, and if you run bloodweaver, probably even the puncture combo will only damage you for 50.

To sum it up: Switch to appropriate classes. Alchemist rarely works against mass sent, but Prophet should do just fine. Don't be stubborn, and CHANGE YOUR CLASS!

I think there needs to be a counter tutorial alongside the class tutorial. Which classes counter which classes.
If this was made clearer at the start as an integral part of the game, newer players would get it faster.
The main issue, as someone already pointed out above, is not enough players switch classes to counter.

It goes without saying, inexperienced Sentinels die faster just from chipping, but no matter how many times I Bola that Sentinel or Eldritch that Abducted teammate, when theres 2 Sentinels and newish players on the team, its just a mess because they are simply focussed on levelling rather than thinking about which class would work best.
Ofc I suggest class changes if need be in team chat, but thats not a solution.

Abduct + Low drop - Puncture combo is still Op and annoying as hell.
AFAIK, you cannot roll out of it. Its just wrong, there should be a slight delay before the puncture to give a small chance of evasion.
I'm not sure if the stun resistance buff reduces the time it takes to recover after a drop, allowing you to manouvere away from the puncture faster.
Worth a try I guess.

TheDreamcrusher
25th Oct 2015, 04:27
Abduct + Low drop - Puncture combo is still Op and annoying as hell.
AFAIK, you cannot roll out of it. Its just wrong, there should be a slight delay before the puncture to give a small chance of evasion.
I'm not sure if the stun resistance buff reduces the time it takes to recover after a drop, allowing you to manouvere away from the puncture faster.
Worth a try I guess.

I expect at some point in time Abduct + Puncture will get the same treatment Charge + Ground Slam did. That is, they'll add a windup to Puncture. I'm guessing the delay is they don't know how to make changes to sentinel to make it still reasonable or viable.

PencileyePirate
25th Oct 2015, 05:56
Sentinel is fine and definitely not OP ... whiners gonna whine.

If anything needs to be changed it's an increased recovery time after kidnap/abduct. A lot of unavoidable combos exist because humans can't evade the next attack; that's not puncture's fault.

LegacyOfKayn
25th Oct 2015, 09:04
Sentinel is fine and definitely not OP ... whiners gonna whine.

If anything needs to be changed it's an increased recovery time after kidnap/abduct. A lot of unavoidable combos exist because humans can't evade the next attack; that's not puncture's fault.

Hahaha we have a sentinel fanboy here,dude keep this impressions to yourself ok? Half of nosgoth say sentinel is OP only the fanboys defend them,it gets old.

PencileyePirate
25th Oct 2015, 09:10
Hahaha we have a sentinel fanboy here,dude keep this impressions to yourself ok? Half of nosgoth say sentinel is OP only the fanboys defend them,it gets old.

Yep, I'm a fanboy because you have trouble killing sentinels ... solid logic right there.

You know what gets old? Players who can't evade or kill sentinels, so they come to forums to whine.

LegacyOfKayn
25th Oct 2015, 10:13
Yep, I'm a fanboy because you have trouble killing sentinels ... solid logic right there.

You know what gets old? Players who can't evade or kill sentinels, so they come to forums to whine.

Try reading the post again a cupple of times,i think u missed the point.

SonixSquad
25th Oct 2015, 11:48
I expect at some point in time Abduct + Puncture will get the same treatment Charge + Ground Slam did. That is, they'll add a windup to Puncture. I'm guessing the delay is they don't know how to make changes to sentinel to make it still reasonable or viable.

Good Sentinel players will always be those who don't rely on one broken mechanic for cheap kills.

I have no problem using bola or hexshot or eldritch on someone abducted. I can even evade punctures from those who drop from higher up( if I survive the drop, you have some time to roll away). But after being dropped close to ground it should not be a guaranteed kill for the Sentinel using Puncture.
The Sent does not have any other unevadable attacks I am aware of.
Other than that specific combo, Sent is fine IMO and does not need a nerf.

BlitzingLlama
25th Oct 2015, 13:15
Good Sentinel players will always be those who don't rely on one broken mechanic for cheap kills.

I have no problem using bola or hexshot or eldritch on someone abducted. I can even evade punctures from those who drop from higher up( if I survive the drop, you have some time to roll away). But after being dropped close to ground it should not be a guaranteed kill for the Sentinel using Puncture.
The Sent does not have any other unevadable attacks I am aware of.
Other than that specific combo, Sent is fine IMO and does not need a nerf.

Abduct+Puncture is not a free kill. That combo doesn't kill a human at full HP. Abduct (240 damage)+Puncture(400 damage)=640 damage. And also if you don't time the puncture right you don't get full damage...i.e. you can't drop and immediately puncture because you will get less than the 400 damage. So if the human had some perk and abilities that subtract from stun duration, you can have time to hex/bola/or just plain attack the vamp. With the perk and ability buffs you can have +35% stun resist.

edit to add:
You guys need to up your game. Not bashing, just speaking the truth. I've played against teams that absolutely will destroy any sentinel as it is right now. When I get into matches against certain people I don't even bother playing sentinel because they know how to play and I would get demolished going in or I wouldn't be able to do the abduct/puncture combo because I KNOW these people will not just let their team mate be dragged away...they actually follow and make sure I don't kill him. I know team work is hard for some people but learn to play as a team.

Also you can't compare the abduct/puncture combo to tyrant charge/ground slam because ground slam is an AOE that does damage in a wide circle AND adds a stun. Totally different mechanics involved there.

SonixSquad
25th Oct 2015, 14:19
Abduct+Puncture is not a free kill. That combo doesn't kill a human at full HP. Abduct (240 damage)+Puncture(400 damage)=640 damage. And also if you don't time the puncture right you don't get full damage...i.e. you can't drop and immediately puncture because you will get less than the 400 damage. So if the human had some perk and abilities that subtract from stun duration, you can have time to hex/bola/or just plain attack the vamp. With the perk and ability buffs you can have +35% stun resist.

I did not say its a free kill (true, I had probably taken some damage already), but %98 of the time when someone gets an Abduct on me and uses that specific manouvere (low drop + Puncture), I'm dead. A %2 chance to not die (because the Sent messed it up usually) is not reasonable. That should be at least %10 and down to the players ability to melee+roll out of danger in time. Currently that is not possible.
Despite melee+rolling, I just can't seem to avoid the Puncture. I'm not saying thats a reason to nerf the Sentinel, but its a manouvere that is being abused because the Abduct was not designed with this use in mind. Thats why the Human gets staggered. I think if they had thought at the time that Vampires would be doing this low drop thing, they would have added a chance to roll out of it without a stagger effect on the human. Thats just my opinion.
The best tweak would be to only add a stagger if the human receives fall damage from an Abduct\kidnap.


edit to add:
You guys need to up your game. Not bashing, just speaking the truth. I've played against teams that absolutely will destroy any sentinel as it is right now. When I get into matches against certain people I don't even bother playing sentinel because they know how to play and I would get demolished going in or I wouldn't be able to do the abduct/puncture combo because I KNOW these people will not just let their team mate be dragged away...they actually follow and make sure I don't kill him. I know team work is hard for some people but learn to play as a team..

True, but thats assuming you're playing with a team that knows how to counter and will back you up which as we all know is rarely the case in Pub play. Hence my initial suggestion for more counter guides for the newer players. It needs to be underlined that they really need to change class and adapt defense to the method of attacks. Its not just about levelling up your Scout, which seems to be the mentality of a lot of (newer) players.

BlitzingLlama
25th Oct 2015, 15:08
I just think it's a bad idea to balance a game based off of subpar and/or new players.

TheDreamcrusher
25th Oct 2015, 18:11
I just think it's a bad idea to balance a game based off of subpar and/or new players.

In a very similar instance, Charge + Ground Slam was changed because that particular combo was nearly instantaneous. Low-drop Abduct + Puncture looks a lot like that. I just want consistency.

BlitzingLlama
25th Oct 2015, 20:30
In a very similar instance, Charge + Ground Slam was changed because that particular combo was nearly instantaneous. Low-drop Abduct + Puncture looks a lot like that. I just want consistency.
Charge and Ground Slam aren't comparable really because that combo was much more OP than this one. That combo could incapacitate an entire team for about 3 seconds whereas this one can't.

SonixSquad
25th Oct 2015, 21:54
AFAIK, there is a stagger at the end of the abduct drop right? Even when from zero altitude.

A simple tweak to the games mechanics would fix this, just remove the stagger if there is no fall damage.
Job done.
No nerf required.



To keep on topic, I don't think the Sentinel is Op as long as the human team are capable of adapting (changing class).
But low-drop puncture is unreasonably lame.

BlitzingLlama
25th Oct 2015, 23:34
AFAIK, there is a stagger at the end of the abduct drop right? Even when from zero altitude.

A simple tweak to the games mechanics would fix this, just remove the stagger if there is no fall damage.
Job done.
No nerf required.



To keep on topic, I don't think the Sentinel is Op as long as the human team are capable of adapting (changing class).
But low-drop puncture is unreasonably lame.

There is always fall damage. I've been dropped from low like that and died from the drop. It's not much but enough to kill you if you're extremely low.

TheDreamcrusher
26th Oct 2015, 03:37
AFAIK, there is a stagger at the end of the abduct drop right? Even when from zero altitude.

A simple tweak to the games mechanics would fix this, just remove the stagger if there is no fall damage.
Job done.
No nerf required.
.

That would be acceptable. Remove the stagger from falling if it's under a certain height. My main issue with the combo is the discrepancy in latency. Some people can react and some can't. I mainly can't but there have been exceptions. As to whether that was because latency actually afforded me a chance to dodge or the sentinel was inaccurate with the attack I don't know.

PencileyePirate
26th Oct 2015, 04:53
AFAIK, there is a stagger at the end of the abduct drop right? Even when from zero altitude.

A simple tweak to the games mechanics would fix this, just remove the stagger if there is no fall damage.
Job done. No nerf required.

99% agreed, this is close to what I've been suggesting from the start. Although IMO stagger should either be removed entirely or shortened on even high damage drops.

This would also help fix other almost unavoidable combos like pounce after drop, etc.

Heretic_13
26th Oct 2015, 09:37
I tell you all better one- it was normal death match. We were vampires first. Pretty nice round- we lost about 3 points, but nothing to be worried about. My team knew what to do. We covered one another, fight was fair, someone took too much damage, others ran over to them with thier kill, to heal teammate. Then we switched.
And here starts fun part. 2 Razielim, 1 Dumahim, 1 Turelim. We once again covered one another. We stayed together and tried to rescue teammates. We lost 30-2. Both of my kills- i put down Tyrant twice. Rest of that whooping was work of both sentinels. One would abduct me, drop me, then hit me with wingflap, and finish me off with claws.
It`s very hard to hit Razielim in mid air with anything, but thats okay i can wait. It`s abduct that is ridiculous. Guy will fly after you even if you do a tight turn, or two and run in to the tunnel. Even dumahim pounce, or turelim charge cannot do such a thing- if they missed, they missed.
But of course it can fault of guys using cheats

Ygdrasel
26th Oct 2015, 21:18
Hahaha we have a sentinel fanboy here,dude keep this impressions to yourself ok? Half of nosgoth say sentinel is OP only the fanboys defend them,it gets old.

"KEEP YOUR OPINIONS THAT I DISAGREE WITH TO YOURSELF!"

Grow up. If half say it's OP, that's still an equal half saying it's not.

All Sentinel needs is a stagger reduction on the drop.

GenocidePete
27th Oct 2015, 00:26
My team knew what to do. We covered one another, fight was fair, someone took too much damage, others ran over to them with thier kill, to heal teammate. Then we switched.
We lost 30-2.
Didn't you listen to G.I. Joe? Knowing is only half the battle. The other half is, presumably, proper execution, and at least 10% should be dedicated to discerning whether you think you know but actually don't.

Heretic_13
27th Oct 2015, 06:46
Didn't you listen to G.I. Joe? Knowing is only half the battle. The other half is, presumably, proper execution, and at least 10% should be dedicated to discerning whether you think you know but actually don't.
I didn`t watch G. I. Joe. And neither do i care about it/him :P
Read Ygdrasel post, i`m with him on that one...

Grisamentum
27th Oct 2015, 07:29
The sent is the most OP vamp class,no1 can deny that

Shouldn't there be a sub-forum for noobs whining about sentinels being OP by now?
There's a new thread every few weeks.
:lmao:

Sasha_Vykos
27th Oct 2015, 08:08
I tell you all better one- it was normal death match. We were vampires first. Pretty nice round- we lost about 3 points, but nothing to be worried about. My team knew what to do. We covered one another, fight was fair, someone took too much damage, others ran over to them with thier kill, to heal teammate. Then we switched.
And here starts fun part. 2 Razielim, 1 Dumahim, 1 Turelim. We once again covered one another. We stayed together and tried to rescue teammates. We lost 30-2. Both of my kills- i put down Tyrant twice. Rest of that whooping was work of both sentinels. One would abduct me, drop me, then hit me with wingflap, and finish me off with claws.
It`s very hard to hit Razielim in mid air with anything, but thats okay i can wait. It`s abduct that is ridiculous. Guy will fly after you even if you do a tight turn, or two and run in to the tunnel. Even dumahim pounce, or turelim charge cannot do such a thing- if they missed, they missed.
But of course it can fault of guys using cheats

You cant hit them mid air and u can't dodge properly so their op. Interesting. And it is so important to judge by 1 match too. Your example conviced me totally.
Btw its funny to read what new players write here.

LegacyOfKayn
27th Oct 2015, 08:24
"KEEP YOUR OPINIONS THAT I DISAGREE WITH TO YOURSELF!"

Grow up. If half say it's OP, that's still an equal half saying it's not.

All Sentinel needs is a stagger reduction on the drop.

Dude,sentinels r by far the fastest and hardest to hit class in the game and do more dmg than almost any vamp class (maybe not more than enrage tyrant when enrage is active) if u combine that speed with the high dmg dealing it's not hard to get to that conclusion,Puncture is the highest dmg dealing primary abillity of all (not counting backstab bcuz u have to hit it from behind to get max dmg,it has a requirement for getting max dmg,puncture doesn't),Air strike also does alot of dmg but i admit it takes a bit of skill in aiming with it if u want anything to be done with it,as for abduct...i don't think that needs any more explications,so what do u find so out of place in what i said?

Grisamentum hahaha noob?=)) pal i'm sure u don't even have half my time played so cut the superiority;)

riccetto80
27th Oct 2015, 15:25
what i dont like about sentinel is some player are able to flight like missile, no ascension time, no slow flight, they go full speed immediate...

some are even able to kidnap/abduct and moving at incredible angles left and right and made very difficult to aim even if you are in the best possible spot to aim their angle of ascension and i really dont understand how that is possible.

yeah need skill/experience/etc... BUT no other class can be exploited this was about moviment speed and agility.

with all experience and skill you cannot make reaver or summoner or other class go so much faster then normal, avoid usual slow movement and jump around during the use of special abilities, this need to be addressed, imho.

also the bomb who can be trow with all our character bh a building is bad and not work as intend i hope...

--Ram--
27th Oct 2015, 15:56
Short summary of this thread:

Group 1: Barbed talons is too strong. Sent is fine other than that. Should probably nerf barbed talons.

Group 2: Sent abduct > puncture combo is unavoidable (if abduct lands), can we reduce the drop stagger please?

Group 3: sent is OP hes impossibru to hit, he fly at 1000mph, sent stacks ruin my whole team, which as it happens can't aim, don't cc, and don't dodge or work together. NERF SENT INTO THE GROUND11!!

BlitzingLlama
27th Oct 2015, 15:57
Yes, Sentinel should be nerfed to the point that it slowly drifts into combat while the enemy team unloads on him. Great idea.

--Ram--
27th Oct 2015, 16:03
Yes, Sentinel should be nerfed to the point that it slowly drifts into combat while the enemy team unloads on him. Great idea.

Sentinel blimps. Fill them with hydrogen gas as well.

BlitzingLlama
27th Oct 2015, 17:13
Here's why I know it's a problem with the player's going against the sent and not the class itself. I've got a ton of hours in this game and against noobs I can get about 20k damage with sent. Against people around my skill level and experience I can get anywhere from 8-15k. Against the top players probably around 5-7k.

SonixSquad
27th Oct 2015, 21:30
You missed a group..

Group 4: Vets trying to belittle other players posts with semi-comedic value rather than adding something constructive, helpful or informative.


Here's why I know it's a problem with the player's going against the sent and not the class itself. I've got a ton of hours in this game and against noobs I can get about 20k damage with sent. Against people around my skill level and experience I can get anywhere from 8-15k. Against the top players probably around 5-7k.


The difference between you doing 20k to 5k is players switching to Eldritch, Hexshot and Bolas and actually focussing targets down. Its not rocket science, it just needs to be drilled into newer players much more. IF ITS NOT WORKING OUT - CHANGE CLASS !


Anyway, I recently heard that to perform a full dmg Puncture, you need to wait for the stagger to finish, otherwise you do less dmg if it hits mid stagger. Can anyone confirm this?

TheDreamcrusher
27th Oct 2015, 22:54
You missed a group..

Group 4: Vets trying to belittle other players posts with semi-comedic value rather than adding something constructive, helpful or informative.




The difference between you doing 20k to 5k is players switching to Eldritch, Hexshot and Bolas and actually focussing targets down. Its not rocket science, it just needs to be drilled into newer players much more. IF ITS NOT WORKING OUT - CHANGE CLASS !


Anyway, I recently heard that to perform a full dmg Puncture, you need to wait for the stagger to finish, otherwise you do less dmg if it hits mid stagger. Can anyone confirm this?

It's standard for vampire attacks to deal reduced damage while humans are standing up. It can be from Throw or anything similar. On the other hand, I have struck reavers in mid-flight from Pounce and seen ones with low enough health to die from the impact of their disrupted leap.

ParadoxicalOmen
28th Oct 2015, 01:59
Sent spam? np...warbow scouts + eldridge shield prophets

It's easily counterable, problem is you need for you team to realize this and work together...but in most cases your team just panics and dont change class.

Heretic_13
28th Oct 2015, 07:37
Vampiers, most of them, are overpowered in my opinion. Thats the thing- instead of playing your favourite class, this turning in to some pokemon match- "he`s using fire, so i freeze him"(or wathever, never watched pokemon). Any class should have decent chances in a match with wathever enemies. But as is is now hunter, and reaver are **** the most by any others. Both of this classes cannot take much- still both are described as "frontline, professional soliders"- in other words somebody, that often finds himself in the close combat with enemy, and if my memory serves me correctly it was Zephonim, who "compensate for thier lack of brawns", but this freaking thing can take full crossbow mag in to thier chest, kill, and still run away- but i digress. I mean what the hell? You love some class, spend lots of time playing it, have your favourite weapons(for example rpeater and whip, savage pounce and choking chaze), but then suddenly, you cannot enjoy the game, because: alchemist is best vs reaver, but reaver is best agains the hunter, hunter can hold his own agains tyrants(the most kill i have is from putting them down, don`t question meeee :) ), but tyrant can bash through scout... I don`t care if you agree with this matches, they are not relevant. What is, it`s this way of thinking- opposing team picked two sentinels, one summoner, and deciver, so it`s suddenly NOT okay to pick hunter, or alchemist. And what if i don`t want to be vanguard, or prophet, because they simply are ugly as hell, and thier abilitie are "too much vampire- too less human side" for me(bulwark, rousing cry, this tentacle - whatever it`s name is)? Then you cannot play because you don`t want to abandon your favourite
Thats what you propose? Then belive me, this game die sooner that you expect. And no. I did not base my opinion on one match. It was several times actualy- proof how overpowered vampires are. We start as leeches- we can win by 3-5 points, second round- we loose 30-10. So? Other team is so good? So how come, they lost first round? How come, that relatively new players- myself included- level 15- can win against expirienced ones, playing as vampires, but when the situation changes around, they ride on us like on rented mule?

River_
28th Oct 2015, 10:47
Vampiers, most of them, are overpowered in my opinion. Thats the thing- instead of playing your favourite class, this turning in to some pokemon match- "he`s using fire, so i freeze him"(or wathever, never watched pokemon). Any class should have decent chances in a match with wathever enemies. But as is is now hunter, and reaver are **** the most by any others. Both of this classes cannot take much- still both are described as "frontline, professional soliders"- in other words somebody, that often finds himself in the close combat with enemy, and if my memory serves me correctly it was Zephonim, who "compensate for thier lack of brawns", but this freaking thing can take full crossbow mag in to thier chest, kill, and still run away- but i digress. I mean what the hell? You love some class, spend lots of time playing it, have your favourite weapons(for example rpeater and whip, savage pounce and choking chaze), but then suddenly, you cannot enjoy the game, because: alchemist is best vs reaver, but reaver is best agains the hunter, hunter can hold his own agains tyrants(the most kill i have is from putting them down, don`t question meeee :) ), but tyrant can bash through scout... I don`t care if you agree with this matches, they are not relevant. What is, it`s this way of thinking- opposing team picked two sentinels, one summoner, and deciver, so it`s suddenly NOT okay to pick hunter, or alchemist. And what if i don`t want to be vanguard, or prophet, because they simply are ugly as hell, and thier abilitie are "too much vampire- too less human side" for me(bulwark, rousing cry, this tentacle porn- whatever it`s name is)? Then **** off- you cannot play because you don`t want to abandon your favourite
Thats what you propose? Then belive me, this game die sooner that you expect- i don`t threaten, i predict. And no. I did not base my opinion on one match. It was several times actualy- proof how overpowered vampires are. We start as leeches- we can win by 3-5 points, second round- we loose 30-10. So? Other team is so good? So how come, they lost first round? How come, that relatively new players- myself included- level 15- can win against expirienced ones, playing as vampires, but when the situation changes around, they ride on us like on rented mule?

Okay, I will respectfully try to negate some of your problems.
First, it is not as simple as: Ow, they go sentinel, I go prophet. The thing is, you can switch around with your abilities/weapons quite a lot. Hunter your favorite class? Good! Pick hunter, but if the enemy runs 2 sentinels, make sure you switch to multi-bow with the precision perk. Are they spamming tyrant and you don't like alchemist? That's fine, stay hunter, but take the siege-bow and grenade instead, to deal heavy damage against them. Or to literally take one of your examples: "alchemist is best vs reaver" (Alch is actually best vs Summoner and Tyrant, but ill go with your statement for now). Then play reaver, but switch from pounce to leap or kick with shadow step. Get in, deal damage, get out. The alch will have a really small time window to actually hurt you, so there goes them countering you. What I mean to say is: It's not as black and white as you make it out to be. Switching your loadout can help tons as well, when you know what weapons/abilities to pick.

Furthermore, to get to your point saying vampires are OP: Yes, they are indeed stronger then humans. BUT! this is only with newer players. Why? Because once you start learning how to chip vampires, how to bait them out, how to survive an engagement, you will see that humans are the stronger ones. The reason for this is because they can chip vampires from far ranges, while vampires need to come in cuddle-range to be able to deal damage. So yeah, my suggestion is: Get even better, and show them humans can be just as great :D

(Also, you really won't pick a class because it is 'ugly as hell'? Okay.. xD)

Heretic_13
28th Oct 2015, 13:34
I meant "ugly" in a sense that i don`t like them: i don`t like thier looks, i don`t like how they play, i don`t like thier abilities. But before you even start- how character looks i pretty important in games- think, would Bethesda give you option of customisation, in menu where much people spend so much time in every game since Morrowind(or older, never played, don`t know how it was before) if it was irrelevant? Also in Nosgoth you also can pick the skins- the one you like, granted, not for free, but the option exists
But thats is not really important- i don`t care about that much
And i understand that people don`t want thier favourite class to go bad... aw heck, enough of this. Let`s not argue about that
I`m just thinking, that even if vampires ar ok, humans need a little tweaking here and there- for example this unfortunate hunter- instead of me being in control of fire- in real life if you try to shot at somebody that runs perpendicularly to you, you need to aim where he will be, not where he is- but in this game this simple law don`t work- it`s hard to play if all my life in games i shot like i mentioned, and here i need to "unlearn" it
But there is more, and frankly i don`t want to start another battle

TheDreamcrusher
28th Oct 2015, 16:12
Vampiers, most of them, are overpowered in my opinion. Thats the thing- instead of playing your favourite class, this turning in to some pokemon match- "he`s using fire, so i freeze him"(or wathever, never watched pokemon). Any class should have decent chances in a match with wathever enemies. But as is is now hunter, and reaver are **** the most by any others. Both of this classes cannot take much- still both are described as "frontline, professional soliders"- in other words somebody, that often finds himself in the close combat with enemy, and if my memory serves me correctly it was Zephonim, who "compensate for thier lack of brawns", but this freaking thing can take full crossbow mag in to thier chest, kill, and still run away- but i digress. I mean what the hell? You love some class, spend lots of time playing it, have your favourite weapons(for example rpeater and whip, savage pounce and choking chaze), but then suddenly, you cannot enjoy the game, because: alchemist is best vs reaver, but reaver is best agains the hunter, hunter can hold his own agains tyrants(the most kill i have is from putting them down, don`t question meeee :) ), but tyrant can bash through scout... I don`t care if you agree with this matches, they are not relevant. What is, it`s this way of thinking- opposing team picked two sentinels, one summoner, and deciver, so it`s suddenly NOT okay to pick hunter, or alchemist. And what if i don`t want to be vanguard, or prophet, because they simply are ugly as hell, and thier abilitie are "too much vampire- too less human side" for me(bulwark, rousing cry, this tentacle - whatever it`s name is)? Then you cannot play because you don`t want to abandon your favourite
Thats what you propose? Then belive me, this game die sooner that you expect. And no. I did not base my opinion on one match. It was several times actualy- proof how overpowered vampires are. We start as leeches- we can win by 3-5 points, second round- we loose 30-10. So? Other team is so good? So how come, they lost first round? How come, that relatively new players- myself included- level 15- can win against expirienced ones, playing as vampires, but when the situation changes around, they ride on us like on rented mule?


I meant "ugly" in a sense that i don`t like them: i don`t like thier looks, i don`t like how they play, i don`t like thier abilities. But before you even start- how character looks i pretty important in games- think, would Bethesda give you option of customisation, in menu where much people spend so much time in every game since Morrowind(or older, never played, don`t know how it was before) if it was irrelevant? Also in Nosgoth you also can pick the skins- the one you like, granted, not for free, but the option exists
But thats is not really important- i don`t care about that much
And i understand that people don`t want thier favourite class to go bad... aw heck, enough of this. Let`s not argue about that
I`m just thinking, that even if vampires ar ok, humans need a little tweaking here and there- for example this unfortunate hunter- instead of me being in control of fire- in real life if you try to shot at somebody that runs perpendicularly to you, you need to aim where he will be, not where he is- but in this game this simple law don`t work- it`s hard to play if all my life in games i shot like i mentioned, and here i need to "unlearn" it
But there is more, and frankly i don`t want to start another battle

So let me get this straight: vampires are overpowered because the hunter can't go toe-to-toe with all of them without there being advantages to playing other classes against different vampires? Ok.

In fall '14, all you needed were full teams of hunters because repeaters did enough damage to gun everything down. Also, this is way off-topic from sentinels.

Heretic_13
29th Oct 2015, 06:47
In fall '14, all you needed were full teams of hunters because repeaters did enough damage to gun everything down. Also, this is way off-topic from sentinels.

And thats how it supposed to be- they are "frontline soliders". You want me go back on the Razielim? No problem. As it is now they are: unavoidable- when you pounce as Dumahim, or jump as Turelim, you have only one chance to hit enemy. They dodge, they live. But i dodge Sentinel, he keeps coming after me, sometimes 2-3 times- only yesterday we had guy named Something 30 Rus, or wathever, in Fane i dodged him and ran behind a pillar- this area where is the small buliding with crates in roof, and he did a very tight turn, and still grabbed me. And this is NOT specyfic occurence in specyfic game, with specyfic player. I mean, what the hell? How come all other have one chance to wound you, but Razielim has few takes on every attack- this abduct thing lasts too long. Either grabbed me, or die- that how it suppose to be.
And not only that- they grab, the drop, then they wingflap, or puncture you. You have no chance at all to defend

Bladestorm01
29th Oct 2015, 16:01
I agree if people don't know how to evade Senti grabs, don't help their teammates who got abducted, can't aim etc. that Sentinel seems OP. If you want to have less problems with Seninels play Sentinel but be prepared to lose a lot of games at the beginning because playing sentinel is very difficult. Level Sentinel to level 25 then you will come back here and say "Sorry, Sentinel actually isn't OP". I speak from personal experience ;)
When I play against noobs I do so much damage with that grenade because noobs don't even notice it and are standing too tight together --> 1k damage with one grenade. On higher level games I don't bother to use it.

BTW every class seems OP if you play against really good players.

To players who think that stagger effect of abduct should only apply if fall damage is taken:
- I think that this combo actually makes Sentinel viable. Use the perk that reduces stun duration and increases HP and suddenly Sentinels are not scary at all because they grab you and force you into a 1:1 situation, then you evade their puncture, then you use all your abilities and kill him (especially if he already got chipped).

ButtCrusher
30th Oct 2015, 02:36
The best tweak would be to only add a stagger if the human receives fall damage from an Abduct\kidnap.

Also it was should fixed before removing Bulwark knockdown.

cmstache
30th Oct 2015, 03:01
I think the biggest issue that comes from this isn't the sentinels. The problem is that it's virtually impossible to counter 3-4 sentinels if you're the only one trying to do it. You might be able to slow the bleeding some, then a good player will notice and they'll all focus you down and your team blames you for feeding, when ultimately you were the only one counter-playing. It's a player base issue, not a class issue.

LegacyOfKayn
30th Oct 2015, 11:22
I think the biggest issue that comes from this isn't the sentinels. The problem is that it's virtually impossible to counter 3-4 sentinels if you're the only one trying to do it. You might be able to slow the bleeding some, then a good player will notice and they'll all focus you down and your team blames you for feeding, when ultimately you were the only one counter-playing. It's a player base issue, not a class issue.

Finally someone who gets the whole point of this post,that's why i said to give back the knockdown part for bulwark so that noobs might be useful (bcuz they don't have to aim) but to be fair there was an interesting point in all the posts on this topic,someone said that all vamp classes,once they missed their main abillity (charge,pounce etc) they don't get a 2nd chance to it so why do sentinels get a redo?
Seems a bit unfair for the other classes,might be worth a look.

PencileyePirate
30th Oct 2015, 12:55
Finally someone who gets the whole point of this post,that's why i said to give back the knockdown part for bulwark so that noobs might be useful (bcuz they don't have to aim) but to be fair there was an interesting point in all the posts on this topic,someone said that all vamp classes,once they missed their main abillity (charge,pounce etc) they don't get a 2nd chance to it so why do sentinels get a redo?

Giving knockdown back to bulwark would be a disaster; it was a bug in the first place, and a horribly annoying one.

I also don't understand why you think sentinels get a "second chance" just because some people roll into grabs after the bird has already missed.

P.S. I don't think cmstache was agreeing with you ... he said "it's a player base issue, not a class issue." That suggests it's a matter of teamwork (or lack thereof.) He describes a scenario where one player is actively trying to counter multiple birds and the others aren't; that's not a problem with birds, it's just bad teamwork.

LegacyOfKayn
30th Oct 2015, 13:23
Giving knockdown back to bulwark would be a disaster; it was a bug in the first place, and a horribly annoying one.

I also don't understand why you think sentinels get a "second chance" just because some people roll into grabs after the bird has already missed.

P.S. I don't think cmstache was agreeing with you ... he said "it's a player base issue, not a class issue." That suggests it's a matter of teamwork (or lack thereof.) He describes a scenario where one player is actively trying to counter multiple birds and the others aren't; that's not a problem with birds, it's just bad teamwork.

1.The knockdown on bulwark was no bug,it was intended (from what i know at least,i might be wrong) and why would it be a disaster?Bcuz it would add 1 more counter to the sentinel's already annoying abduct?Yeah a total disaster.
2.It's not about where they roll,i can catch them anyway (70% of the times at least and when i miss it's bcuz i don't pay enough attention).Let me put it this way,my main vamp class is Tyrant and vs a medium skill human team with a medium skill vamp team on my side,i do about 2 times the dmg of anyone in my team with Tyrant,when i play sentinel (and i'm rlly not that good with sent i might add) in the same circumstances i do 3 times the dmg of anyone in my team,tell me how that's not op?
3.Actually he is agreeing,check the title of this topic,check all the posts so far and what i've said up to this point,i already mentioned that my problem is not necessarily with the sentinel itself (yeah sure it is better than any other vamp class but i can deal with 1 or 2) but with the SENTINEL SPAMMING.I lost alot of games at leagues bcuz i ended up with noobs in my team and the other team was spamming sent,the noobs can't aim bolas,hex shots,war bow shots or whatever so i lost and i can't beat alone 4 sentinels no matter what i do,bulwark doesn't require good aiming AND counters sentinels so that allows even noobs to be useful.

PencileyePirate
30th Oct 2015, 13:27
1.The knockdown on bulwark was no bug,it was intended (from what i know at least,i might be wrong) and why would it be a disaster?

It was a bug, and Psyonix said so. It would be a disaster because it when the bug existed it was a no-skill hold-RMB equivalent of warbow. Sorry, but the rest of your post is too illegible to respond to.

Sasha_Vykos
30th Oct 2015, 14:04
1.The knockdown on bulwark was no bug,it was intended (from what i know at least,i might be wrong) and why would it be a disaster?Bcuz it would add 1 more counter to the sentinel's already annoying abduct?Yeah a total disaster.
2.It's not about where they roll,i can catch them anyway (70% of the times at least and when i miss it's bcuz i don't pay enough attention).Let me put it this way,my main vamp class is Tyrant and vs a medium skill human team with a medium skill vamp team on my side,i do about 2 times the dmg of anyone in my team with Tyrant,when i play sentinel (and i'm rlly not that good with sent i might add) in the same circumstances i do 3 times the dmg of anyone in my team,tell me how that's not op?
3.Actually he is agreeing,check the title of this topic,check all the posts so far and what i've said up to this point,i already mentioned that my problem is not necessarily with the sentinel itself (yeah sure it is better than any other vamp class but i can deal with 1 or 2) but with the SENTINEL SPAMMING.I lost alot of games at leagues bcuz i ended up with noobs in my team and the other team was spamming sent,the noobs can't aim bolas,hex shots,war bow shots or whatever so i lost and i can't beat alone 4 sentinels no matter what i do,bulwark doesn't require good aiming AND counters sentinels so that allows even noobs to be useful.

ah ok.. if u triple the damage of some noobs yeah, senti are OP. Clearly.
And btw bulkwark was ridicolous before the fix.

LegacyOfKayn
30th Oct 2015, 15:00
ah ok.. if u triple the damage of some noobs yeah, senti are OP. Clearly.
And btw bulkwark was ridicolous before the fix.

Read again,i said MEDIUM SKILLED team mates.

Guardian1uk
30th Oct 2015, 15:18
AFAIK, there is a stagger at the end of the abduct drop right? Even when from zero altitude.

A simple tweak to the games mechanics would fix this, just remove the stagger if there is no fall damage.
Job done.
Doesn't kidnap also have the stagger at the end?
Also some senti players tend to focus on players who aren't already at full health, just the be able to use the abduct/kidnap & puncture routine to get a free kill, which is what it usually is.

Sonix you also sure about senti's skimming the ground does no damage? cause I'm sure I've taken damage even when they've been skimming the ground practiaclly at my shin height. (though I admit I could be wrong on that one)

LegacyOfKayn
30th Oct 2015, 15:35
It was a bug, and Psyonix said so. It would be a disaster because it when the bug existed it was a no-skill hold-RMB equivalent of warbow. Sorry, but the rest of your post is too illegible to respond to.

Ok i'll try this again,so:
2.I bassically said that if i'm in a game where both teams have players with medium play skill i do 2 times more dmg than anyone in my team on vamp side if i play tyrant and 3 times as sentinel.Tyrant is my main vamp class and with sentinel i'm rlly not that good,so how's that not op?
3.I said i think that cmstache is agreeing with me bucz i already said that my problem is with sentinel spamming rather than the sentinel itself (even though the sentinel is better than any other vamp class it's not hard to handle 1-2 sentinels in a game).
Even 4 sentinels r not hard to beat if u have a good team BUT at leagues u mostly get nobs so since nobs r not that good at aiming,bulwark would balance things up.

So warbow is a no-skill weapon bcuz u hold RMB?:)) dude all bows require u to hold down RMB and warbow requires even more accuracy since it takes alot of time to charge.

PencileyePirate
30th Oct 2015, 16:40
Even 4 sentinels r not hard to beat if u have a good team BUT at leagues u mostly get nobs so since nobs r not that good at aiming,bulwark would balance things up.

So warbow is a no-skill weapon bcuz u hold RMB?:)) dude all bows require u to hold down RMB and warbow requires even more accuracy since it takes alot of time to charge.

One requires aiming and the other doesn't ... is that so hard to understand?

You must recognize this because you just said you want to "balance things up" for newbies, but giving them knockdown just by pressing a button [and without aiming] is a horrible idea.

LegacyOfKayn
30th Oct 2015, 16:42
Ow so it's better for them to spam sentinels and for me to loose bcuz my team can't aim is that right?

PencileyePirate
30th Oct 2015, 16:45
Ow so it's better for them to spam sentinels and for me to loose bcuz my team can't aim is that right?

Of course. If your team can't aim or use teamwork then they deserve to lose. You wanting to give newbies free knockdown just so you can win games with a bad team is selfish and unjustified.

LegacyOfKayn
30th Oct 2015, 17:07
Agreed,they do deserve to loose,but why should i loose as well bcuz of them?Ur not ok with the knockdown,fine then there r other options:
Limit the nr of players that can play a class like they did in Capture the Body.
Increase the lvl limit for leagues to 40 or even 50.
Improve MM so that high lvl players won't end up with players that have 50-100 hours.
Nerf the abduct-low drop-puncture stuff AND reduce the time u have to abduct ppl once u activate the abillity so that sentinel would actually require some skill to play instead of being viable to any nob.

There 4 alternatives to the bulwark knockdown,the truth is i don't care what they do,i sick of loosing to 4 sentinel nobs bcuz i get bigger nobs in my team.

PencileyePirate
30th Oct 2015, 17:26
Agreed,they do deserve to loose,but why should i loose as well bcuz of them?Ur not ok with the knockdown,fine then there r other options:
Limit the nr of players that can play a class like they did in Capture the Body.
Increase the lvl limit for leagues to 40 or even 50.
Improve MM so that high lvl players won't end up with players that have 50-100 hours.
Nerf the abduct-low drop-puncture stuff AND reduce the time u have to abduct ppl once u activate the abillity so that sentinel would actually require some skill to play instead of being viable to any nob.

There 4 alternatives to the bulwark knockdown,the truth is i don't care what they do,i sick of loosing to 4 sentinel nobs bcuz i get bigger nobs in my team.

Sounds like you should be complaining about the matchmaking, not sentinels.

I think the level limit for leagues should be increased to about 20, and agree that MM and team balancing needs to be fixed ... but that really is a different issue, and creating this thread in response to getting bad teams is misleading.

The only things that actually need to be nerfed on sentinel are the drop stagger time and bloody talons.

LegacyOfKayn
30th Oct 2015, 17:40
Sounds like you should be complaining about the matchmaking, not sentinels.

I think the level limit for leagues should be increased to about 20, and agree that MM and team balancing needs to be fixed ... but that really is a different issue, and creating this thread in response to getting bad teams is misleading.

The only things that actually need to be nerfed on sentinel are the drop stagger time and bloody talons.

And reduced time for abduct as i said,not fair for the rest of the classes that sentinels get a 2nd chanse if they miss,that shouldn't be a problem for skilled players since u get right from the first try right?

Ygdrasel
31st Oct 2015, 19:38
Thats the thing- instead of playing your favourite class, this turning in to some pokemon match- "he`s using fire, so i freeze him"(or wathever, never watched pokemon). Any class should have decent chances in a match with wathever enemies.

All I'm reading here is "NO CLASSES SHOULD HAVE ANY SPECIALIZED USE AND TACTICS SHOULD NEVER HAVE TO BE CONSIDERED SO I CAN ALWAYS PLAY MY FAVORITES!"

No. You want to play your favorite classes, you're welcome to it. But you should not be winning if you refuse to fight well.


give back the knockdown part for bulwark so that noobs might be useful (bcuz they don't have to aim)

Or.

And this is a crazy idea.

Teach the new guys to aim.

*SHOCKED GASPING*

Instead of lowering the game to the new player's level, raise them to the game's level.

LegacyOfKayn
31st Oct 2015, 19:50
Or.

And this is a crazy idea.

Teach the new guys to aim.

*SHOCKED GASPING*

Instead of lowering the game to the new player's level, raise them to the game's level.

You're a bit behind with the discussion mate,read the other posts and see where we've gotten.

Heretic_13
3rd Nov 2015, 08:13
LegacyOfKayn- i agree, that sometimes Razielim is annoying as ****, and some players either hunt wounded humans, or gang up on one victim(**** me off really good- sunday morning, i started finally gaining some points after employing multibow, and was only one hunter in my team, so easy to spot- vampires started jumping me, 3-4 of them at the time, to take me out first, but that was good team work, not OP) and some players, i dunno why, feel the need of **** up game for others, so they either cheat, has a high ping, or troll in to oblivion. But every good point you ever made is lost, because you are either rude or overly sarcastic(i know this, i`ve been there) or just plainly irrational. Because what you say is "give us back bulwark knockdown, because noobs canno`t shoot", or "make sentinels limping slow"- i can shoot at them when i see them, use bola, or just run to my teammates for help, if he`s coming after me. You go to war, will you ask your enemy to cover thier eyes, because your side is composed mainly of fresh recriuts, and that cannot shoot very well?
I agree sometimes vampires are over powered- i can drop Turelim, or Dumahim with combination of explosing shots and whip, and adding few more bolts. But Melchiahim, or Zephonim are pretty... thin, and hard to hit, add to this thier abilities- shield, or camouflage, and pretty fast movements, and you end up dead very often. Turelim and Dumahim should be specialists when it comes to hand to hand combat, and Melchaihim and Zephonim should use thier abilities, because they cannot take much damage. Instead i see reavers and tyrants with 1000- 1050 hp, and decivers, sentinels and summoners with 1250-1300 hp. Maybe this is where problem lies, maybe that is what needs looking in to?
You won`t win every match just because you have better abilities- you need skill. Every time i see "new here" on chat i write "stay with your team, and help them"- at the very least, he/she will cover wounded
Don`t just give them "magical solution" for every problem

LegacyOfKayn
4th Nov 2015, 10:09
LegacyOfKayn- i agree, that sometimes Razielim is annoying as ****, and some players either hunt wounded humans, or gang up on one victim(**** me off really good- sunday morning, i started finally gaining some points after employing multibow, and was only one hunter in my team, so easy to spot- vampires started jumping me, 3-4 of them at the time, to take me out first, but that was good team work, not OP) and some players, i dunno why, feel the need of **** up game for others, so they either cheat, has a high ping, or troll in to oblivion. But every good point you ever made is lost, because you are either rude or overly sarcastic(i know this, i`ve been there) or just plainly irrational. Because what you say is "give us back bulwark knockdown, because noobs canno`t shoot", or "make sentinels limping slow"- i can shoot at them when i see them, use bola, or just run to my teammates for help, if he`s coming after me. You go to war, will you ask your enemy to cover thier eyes, because your side is composed mainly of fresh recriuts, and that cannot shoot very well?
I agree sometimes vampires are over powered- i can drop Turelim, or Dumahim with combination of explosing shots and whip, and adding few more bolts. But Melchiahim, or Zephonim are pretty... thin, and hard to hit, add to this thier abilities- shield, or camouflage, and pretty fast movements, and you end up dead very often. Turelim and Dumahim should be specialists when it comes to hand to hand combat, and Melchaihim and Zephonim should use thier abilities, because they cannot take much damage. Instead i see reavers and tyrants with 1000- 1050 hp, and decivers, sentinels and summoners with 1250-1300 hp. Maybe this is where problem lies, maybe that is what needs looking in to?
You won`t win every match just because you have better abilities- you need skill. Every time i see "new here" on chat i write "stay with your team, and help them"- at the very least, he/she will cover wounded
Don`t just give them "magical solution" for every problem

U r right about pretty much everything there mate but ur missing the point a little.
As i said in a couple of posts above that my specific problem is with sentinel spamming that means 4 sentinels (hell even 3 r annying) and i also posted some other solutions for that since no1 seems to like the bulwark knockdown option.
As for the op part same thing,i brought arguments,the only thing that needs some nerfing is that insanely long abduct time and the low drop-puncture thing.

Ygdrasel
4th Nov 2015, 22:45
You're a bit behind with the discussion mate,read the other posts and see where we've gotten.

Is it "Learn to fight against Sentinel groups"? Because that's the solution.

Heretic_13
5th Nov 2015, 07:20
Ygdrasel, stop this please, as you can see it won`t solve anything.
LegacyOfKayn- monday, i played with team of 4 Dumahim- we destroyed humans side 30-5(or something along this line). Why? We did the same thing 4 Razielim, or 4 Turelim, or 4 Zephonim, or 4 Melchiahim would do- disperse humans with abilities(choking chaze in that example) pick one that got the farthest, and jump him/her- 2-3 of us- and kill him/her. Should we block or nerf leap and pounce attacks? Because what we did is the same with spamming Sentinels- i got on top of somebody with savage pounce, as soon as he/she got up, my teammate punce them himself, then one or two slash of the claw and that was the end. Unfair? You bet, i got the same treatment in leauges yesterday. Because i tried to save my mates, Sentinels, reavers and summoners picked me first
Vampires have enough "distance attacks"(either throwing or simply closing-in in an instant) allowing them to attack humans much more painlessly, than if they only hand melee atacks and abilities for sneaking to thier victims
As it is now in leauges- whoever get vampire first, has better chances at winning. You need really powerfull weapons to kill vampires quickly. And not everyone is willing to fork over euro for runestones

LegacyOfKayn
5th Nov 2015, 08:58
Ygdrasel, stop this please, as you can see it won`t solve anything.
LegacyOfKayn- monday, i played with team of 4 Dumahim- we destroyed humans side 30-5(or something along this line). Why? We did the same thing 4 Razielim, or 4 Turelim, or 4 Zephonim, or 4 Melchiahim would do- disperse humans with abilities(choking chaze in that example) pick one that got the farthest, and jump him/her- 2-3 of us- and kill him/her. Should we block or nerf leap and pounce attacks? Because what we did is the same with spamming Sentinels- i got on top of somebody with savage pounce, as soon as he/she got up, my teammate punce them himself, then one or two slash of the claw and that was the end. Unfair? You bet, i got the same treatment in leauges yesterday. Because i tried to save my mates, Sentinels, reavers and summoners picked me first
Vampires have enough "distance attacks"(either throwing or simply closing-in in an instant) allowing them to attack humans much more painlessly, than if they only hand melee atacks and abilities for sneaking to thier victims
As it is now in leauges- whoever get vampire first, has better chances at winning. You need really powerfull weapons to kill vampires quickly. And not everyone is willing to fork over euro for runestones

That's a VERY poor comparation,a reaver once it pounces on a human is easy to hit and even nobs can shoot it,plus pounce is 10 times easier to dodge than abduct i think we can all agree on that.

Ygdrasel again u miss the point,if u don't wanna read all the posts and THEN reply with some usefull information at least don't post just for the sake of trolling ok?

I'll give u one more example,yesterday at leagues i got into a game where the other team had 4 sentinels,we were all veterans everyone had over 800 hours played.
They beat us the first 2 waves,they had a score of 8-2,at some point i say "and if i make posts on forums that sentinel spamming ruins the game everyone disagrees".
After i said that,2 of them switched to deceiver,after they switched we started beating them and won the game.

Heretic_13
5th Nov 2015, 11:55
Truth to be told- i have no problems with Razielim, Dumahim, or Turelim- aside from some... people who have thier classes tweaked so much- with this freaking glowing effects, that thier movements are to quick- guy pounce/stab/ground slam you and without a pause begins to attack, while all others have this pause before they can do anything. I have a problem with Zephonim and Melchahim- they really destroy game for me- controll mind- you can do nothing to avoid it, there is no "itching in right foot, or slight pain in the head" warning you to run and hide from his attack range. Then it`s this camouflage combined with backstab... Of course we also talk about shield. And to top it all off, they are as sturdy as rest of vampires... You almost can`t hit them from afar(as i siad somwhere, thinner than the rest) and up close they are as fast as reavers, often your teammates don`t have enough time to help you
As for spamming Sentinels- 2-3-4 of them. There could be game mechanic against it, but then the rest classes also would end up like this- no 3 hunters in one tam, or reavers. Many players would feel offended they cannot play thier favourite, or would they be new and didn`t have any other class than Tyrant, or Reaver. Should they not play? What you propose is either not fair for on class, which would be quickly abandoned, or for players, new or old- who put a lot of thier effort in to perfecting strategies or abilities for Sentinels. It`s plainly impossible to do
I do agree vampires are overpowered- but they are overpowered in general- most of the games is won by team who gets thier hands on vampires first- but either we go for all, or none.

LegacyOfKayn
5th Nov 2015, 12:40
Vamps r not OP,only sentinel need some adjusting.I mean sure at low lvl vamps r better than humans but at high lvl it's the other way around.
As for the class limitation,chose ur class quick,that's all it takes,and i'm sure that no1 will die or quit nosgoth just bcuz he didn't get to play he's favorite class for a couple of games.

Heretic_13
5th Nov 2015, 13:08
Yes, but restrictions are something, that people generally do not like. And some(me included) really don`t like when somebody tells them what they need to do- they`d quit "Nosgoth". Unfortunately, as somebody said- they go sentinels, you have to go bola, hex shots and so on. Or dodge, aim, and work as a team better. I given some thoughts to this problem we have here, and as it is there is no simple solution for it, nor "magical cure". Maybe aside from the limiting time player can use to abduct- as it is now, it`s ridiculous, that guy can go after you 2nd time after a miss

LegacyOfKayn
5th Nov 2015, 13:22
Good,then they should nerf the sentinels,that works as well for me,as i said i don't care what it is as long as i don't have to deal with the sent spam.
I mean yeah sure,nerfing it won't make the spamming go away but it would make it easier to counter.

kLauE187
5th Nov 2015, 15:25
Good,then they should nerf the sentinels,that works as well for me,as i said i don't care what it is as long as i don't have to deal with the sent spam.
I mean yeah sure,nerfing it won't make the spamming go away but it would make it easier to counter.

It's already easy to counter sentinels. Scout, prophet and hunter can deal quite easily with them. Also know how to dodge them makes a huge difference between success and fail.Things which needs a nerf is barbed talons and a smaller hitbox for puncture + nerf the global-range from shriek. Reaver should have bleed instead of sentinel to make the class atleast somewhat useful.

LegacyOfKayn
6th Nov 2015, 09:34
True,not that hard to dodge abduct but that is not what this is about.
As i said every class once it missed it's primary abillity,it doesn't get a 2nd chase,sentinel does,it can turn around and get it,that's not fair for the other vamp classes.

kLauE187
6th Nov 2015, 12:17
True,not that hard to dodge abduct but that is not what this is about.
As i said every class once it missed it's primary abillity,it doesn't get a 2nd chase,sentinel does,it can turn around and get it,that's not fair for the other vamp classes.
You mean 360° turn in abduct? This doesn't work if you dodge correctly. More likely your fault if you roll 90° away what you should never do against a sent.

LegacyOfKayn
6th Nov 2015, 12:31
I know how to dodge,my point is,why does a sent get a 360 degree turn around when abillities like charge and pounce don't have it?
U miss,ur done,no redo that's how it should be.

Heretic_13
6th Nov 2015, 13:20
And that is true. Everyone have one chance. One granade, thre exploding bolts are fired at once, fire vial, pounce, charge, jump, abyssal bolt... But Razielim is clan that is hard to aim. Reaver can pounce from static position- aim better, tyran only needs to bump in to you to send you on the ground and so on. But we need to distinguish somethings here- i played leauges with two sentinels yesterday. I had no problem with countering, or dodging them, if i rolled even slightly from thier path, they didin`t grab me. Even if they did U- turn. But we have this... people, with lots of adjustments, enchantments and plain cheats, that will grab you, even if you rolled completly out of thier way
Oh, and by the way 360 means they still fly in the same direction :lol: "U-turn" my friends is only 180 degrees
And this whole debate over nerfing and dodging... it reminds me a lot of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQYArVXnY0M

LegacyOfKayn
6th Nov 2015, 13:24
And that is true. Everyone have one chance. One granade, thre exploding bolts are fired at once, fire vial, pounce, charge, jump, abyssal bolt... But Razielim is clan that is hard to aim. Reaver can pounce from static position- aim better, tyran only needs to bump in to you to send you on the ground and so on. But we need to distinguish somethings here- i played leauges with two sentinels yesterday. I had no problem with countering, or dodging them, if i rolled even slightly from thier path, they didin`t grab me. Even if they did U- turn. But we have this... people, with lots of adjustments, enchantments and plain cheats, that will grab you, even if you rolled completly out of thier way
Oh, and by the way 360 means they still fly in the same direction :lol: "U-turn" my friends is only 180 degrees
And this whole debate over nerfing and dodging... it reminds me a lot of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQYArVXnY0M

Sorry but i don't think i understand ur point

Heretic_13
9th Nov 2015, 08:41
Never mind. Spamming with sentinels, as long as they are your default sentinels, with no boosts and stuff, is okay. If you got cheaters or something like that in other team, you`ll lose anyway
You worried about noobs not able to counter them? Sorry, this game is, or at least should be, about who`s better, not who got better abilities. Go to some clan, or warband, befriend them and you`ll have experienced players. Otherwise it`s always a gamble. Yesterday i reached Blood V on leauges. One time i got team that didn`t support one another- they were the kind of people, that when i was on my back mauled by the reaver, with tyrant standing by my side, waiting for his turn- they resupply instead of helping, or just run away. We got destroyed 45-3- and 2 of thouse points were my points, only because i tried to help my teammates. Next i got guys who were staying together and helping each other. Razielim, Zephonim, Melchiahim, Turelim, Dumahim, didn`t matter what they get, we won match, with first round being 30-15
What i am against is sentinels being able to fly around you , with abduct lasting for 2-3 tries, while default razielim it`s very hard to aim and if you don`t hit, thats it
Oh, and by the way. This enchanting-speed boosting-strenght increasing-aim and spread-improving stuff in every clan, and every class got to go!
I`ve had enough of guy being able to withstand whip to the face almost without any stagger- how am i suppose to fight back if this guy can jump on me in 1 second and beat me up with 2-3 strikes? Turelim with hitting speed of reaver, melchiahim and zephonim with the strenght of tyrant, reaver with speed of light and no stagger at all. "Humans need to fight from bigger distance"- how could they? Zephonim will controll-mind you from afar, so he can beat you up alone, melchiahim will throw her abyssal bolt, and then take you on... and so on. And to top all of that, they can kill you in 3 strikes- i get them with sticky granade, whip them in the face, and multibow-them. And they still have enough life to get me. How my team is suppose to help me, when they are getting slaughtered themselves? Or hunters with crossbows that are as accurate as scouts bows, or scouts being able to reduce my hp in one shot from 1000, to 350- this glowing freaking shot. I am in Valeholm, near this towering structure, he stands in "right, upper corner" of the map, this place where all humans can get to the highest point. Shoots at me series of 5 from pink glowing repeater, every bolt lands on me. I`d try the same with my "normal" repeater, i`d hit vampire 1-2. Or Crucible- i savage pounce scout, he turns around, hits me with throwing knives, and then with ONE arrow, and finish me off- do i even need to say i had 1000 hp, when i pounced him?
THIS GAME SUPPOSE TO BE ABOUT WHO`S BETTER, NOT WHO HAS BETTER TOYS. That is real issue here, not spamming any class

LegacyOfKayn
9th Nov 2015, 10:24
This topic has become quite useless right now cuz since they added the option to play with a friend i CAN counter 4 sentinels cuz i have 1 person who helps so that's more than enough for me.
If anything the topic should be used to point out the sentinel abillities that need nerfing.

VodkaKid123
10th Nov 2015, 07:39
"the most op" are u srsly? there is not most op anything in this game, u just cant encounter it