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Lehkeri
23rd Oct 2015, 12:17
I created this thread as per my wife's request. She'd like to hear your opinions and thoughts. I asked her to create her own account here, but she refused, stating that she "will not create accounts as it's impossible to remember all the passwords". Ah well.

First of all, I would really like to thank Dontnod for making a game my wife played "willingly". She eagerly anticipated each episode, which is unheard of, since she does not play games, at all. You made a game that made a non-gamer play. Congratulations!

Anyway, she finished the game just moments ago, and is a bit emotional at the moment. Understandable. But she's happy about her choice. I wrote her thoughts about the ending in another thread, so I'll just copy it here:

"The nightmare scene was very well done. It was clearly Max's subconscious interacting with her, her fears and hopes, all she did. But at the diner, I knew what they wanted. They were trying to deceive me, the player. Make the player feel guilty. At that moment I knew they'd have an ending which would need time travel. Every time Max used her time travel powers, something went wrong. She went to fix her own previous fixes. All those people at the diner, telling Max not to let them die, to save them are only there to goat her to user her power "one more time". There can't be that one more time. You can't fix mistakes with more mistakes.

So the ending was easy for me. They tried to make me feel guilty, to make me use those powers one more time. No. Even if it would work, all the work Max, MY MAX, went through would be in vain. Chloe would not know her best friend, her soulmate, still loved her. She would die alone, lying on the bathroom floor, feeling betrayed by the world. That is not the way. The only way to win, is not to play"

The end choice was easy for her, though she did complain, quite loudly, how underdeveloped the actually ending cutscene was. She felt that it's missing a lot of stuff, and can't really blame her.

But in any case, she'd like to hear your thoughts about her, uhm, thoughts.

StrangerThanFiction
23rd Oct 2015, 12:24
First off: we must turn her into a gamer like us *laughs manically.*

I think a majority of us who saved Chloe felt exactly the same way (I do too, but I have already stated my main reason why I chose to save her.) So I think your wife's thoughts are wonderful.

KristaD
23rd Oct 2015, 12:46
I can under why she saved Chloe, all those memories that you have with her, the love you share and all the rest of it. I think it pretty cool to get this kind of insight into someone's thoughts that did save her.

This post did make me understand why I didn't save her. I have had 3 people that I've loved I had to let go in my past, and the only thing I got is are my memories of them.

You can give your wife my sincerest thanks for giving me this insight into myself. :)

p.s. I can be very blind when it comes to stuff like this.

--TIE--
23rd Oct 2015, 13:00
Very well writen Lehkeri sad thats the game didnt honor this step like your wife states it in a few words. The Story deserves it...

Lehkeri
23rd Oct 2015, 15:49
Very well writen Lehkeri sad thats the game didnt honor this step like your wife states it in a few words. The Story deserves it...

She's kinda disappointed by the lack of attention her ending got. But then again, Life is... strange.

ET_Red
23rd Oct 2015, 15:51
Every time Max used her time travel powers, something went wrong. She went to fix her own previous fixes. All those people at the diner, telling Max not to let them die, to save them are only there to goat her to user her power "one more time". There can't be that one more time. You can't fix mistakes with more mistakes.


Totally agree with your wife about that and everything else. The massive use of time travel always had brought along at least the same amount of trouble it solved and at some point it was spiraling out of control. Fighting fire with fire is not always a wise thing to do.

TyrelHun
23rd Oct 2015, 17:04
I think that if Max continued to try and fix things she could have eventually succeeded. Think of it as a minesweeper, she slowly started figuring out which events of the past are the mines, those that she's not supposed to change otherwise hell breaks loose. I believe if she continued going by this minesweeper logic she could have eventually found a path, a chain of events that has... acceptable sacrifices (like that of William).
Chloe's sacrifice however is not acceptable, nor that of the entire town.

On the other hand I completely agree that the Arcadia Bay ending is horribly underdeveloped. It screams for a patch. (Yes I am nodding at you Dontnod! Pun intended...)

JasminJennifer
23rd Oct 2015, 18:21
My deepest and most sincere respect for your insights, mam.

After three days now, i’m still emotionaly shaken, so i’m sorry while not all my words will be fully correct written (and english isn’t my native language, too). To keep it short : respect for your statement of what and why you choose that ending.

For my person, it wasn’t that clear. It felt like ages for me until i finaly had choosen to sacrifice Chloe (guess its been still a few minutes in which i only was able to cry). Now, three days later and reading what your husband posting in your name, i guess that what your stated was in my mind too (the reason why i needed that long to choose). But with all that memories, personal memories of the school time from my husband and myself, brought back fresh and clearly to my own eyes. That kinda blinded me. Maybe its also something i’ve experience within my twelve years of army service. Some of those thing, looked by now i can only label as stupid stunts. Sure, they saved lifes of comrads and civilians, but they also could had costs my life - robbing my daughter the mother, my husband the wife. After one of that stunts (my duty file stated that as disregard of orders as well as special courage - i guess foolishness catch it better now), including three days without nearly any sleep, been fallen into an ambush (including an minor IED), minutes of heavy firefight and close quarter combat (never again used my pistol and knife during that 6 months, or ever during twelve years of duty), i still got enough energy to take care of my fellow comrads (most had been younger than me) and writing an after action report. Most of them, younger and of cause tougher than me little, fragile woman, and of cause most atleast one head taller than me. There faces had been full of exhaustion and silence. I don’t know if thats on my mind only or the effects of LiS Unreal Engine 3, but during the end you’ve choosen, Maxine seem to have the same countenance. Battled. Exhausted. Tired of fighting against fate.

In the aftermath ,i feel kind of naive (maybe even stupid) during the moment of choosing. Thought, maybe you (so, Maxine) can an last time go back and even trick (not cheating fate) fate. I meen not to rewind the moment Chloe dies, again and again to an perfect vanilla ending in some kind of fairy tale style (by the way, even with such an option, the story never had such an end - Rachel still dead, Kate and all the other young women still suffered, even if you can stop Mr Jefferson again). I meen, Maxine had been evolved. Facing death more than one time during her (our all) journay (with her). Starting with the junkyard and till the dark room. Tried to protect her lost and found best friend. Her anew found, maybe never lost, friendship to Chloe. I also know how hard it can be to face friends or loved ones in some situations. No matter about what time left.

But that options,...left behind not used. It feels kind of parents want to protect there child from been harmed, meen that the developers not at least hat that kind of option still build in. But who knows, maybe they got and thats kind of new game plus - or like it is called this days within games.

The hammer she used the first time to finaly activate the fire alarm. The bucket. Yes, the bucket, the blue butterfly had sit on. Samuals cleaning car/trolly with or without the scubbing brush. Or even Maxine herself, maybe ramming Nathan. And even if somebody still get an shot and be wounded, Maxine seem not to be an stupid young woman, she maybe that smart to use some tampons to stop or slow down bleeding until help is arrived. She maybe get wounded herself (same kind of options as in the scene with Frank, Chloe and Maxine at his camper). From vanilla to very very very sad ending that may had have all in (included an physical price to pay of the fate of Chloe and the town). At that point, it is still an game, not wanting that the player got too much options to choose from. Sure an very good one, which more than any other one i’ve ever played may fully titled as Art and not plane entertainment. Really, who cares about grafhic effects or support of special hardware, while the game concept and story matching, striking, taking you with it. But i should have known better from what i’ve experienced in life.

So, again. My respect for that moment of clear mind and insight, mam. And sorry for texting too much and in some bad english, but with your statement i’ve felt to honor you with the same level of insights of myself.

Lehkeri, i hope you know what kind of an good woman you’ve by your side.


greetings,
Jennifer

Lehkeri
23rd Oct 2015, 18:55
My deepest and most sincere respect for your insights, mam.

After three days now, i’m still emotionaly shaken, so i’m sorry while not all my words will be fully correct written (and english isn’t my native language, too). To keep it short : respect for your statement of what and why you choose that ending.

For my person, it wasn’t that clear. It felt like ages for me until i finaly had choosen to sacrifice Chloe (guess its been still a few minutes in which i only was able to cry). Now, three days later and reading what your husband posting in your name, i guess that what your stated was in my mind too (the reason why i needed that long to choose). But with all that memories, personal memories of the school time from my husband and myself, brought back fresh and clearly to my own eyes. That kinda blinded me. Maybe its also something i’ve experience within my twelve years of army service. Some of those thing, looked by now i can only label as stupid stunts. Sure, they saved lifes of comrads and civilians, but they also could had costs my life - robbing my daughter the mother, my husband the wife. After one of that stunts (my duty file stated that as disregard of orders as well as special courage - i guess foolishness catch it better now), including three days without nearly any sleep, been fallen into an ambush (including an minor IED), minutes of heavy firefight and close quarter combat (never again used my pistol and knife during that 6 months, or ever during twelve years of duty), i still got enough energy to take care of my fellow comrads (most had been younger than me) and writing an after action report. Most of them, younger and of cause tougher than me little, fragile woman, and of cause most atleast one head taller than me. There faces had been full of exhaustion and silence. I don’t know if thats on my mind only or the effects of LiS Unreal Engine 3, but during the end you’ve choosen, Maxine seem to have the same countenance. Battled. Exhausted. Tired of fighting against fate.

In the aftermath ,i feel kind of naive (maybe even stupid) during the moment of choosing. Thought, maybe you (so, Maxine) can an last time go back and even trick (not cheating fate) fate. I meen not to rewind the moment Chloe dies, again and again to an perfect vanilla ending in some kind of fairy tale style (by the way, even with such an option, the story never had such an end - Rachel still dead, Kate and all the other young women still suffered, even if you can stop Mr Jefferson again). I meen, Maxine had been evolved. Facing death more than one time during her (our all) journay (with her). Starting with the junkyard and till the dark room. Tried to protect her lost and found best friend. Her anew found, maybe never lost, friendship to Chloe. I also know how hard it can be to face friends or loved ones in some situations. No matter about what time left.

But that options,...left behind not used. It feels kind of parents want to protect there child from been harmed, meen that the developers not at least hat that kind of option still build in. But who knows, maybe they got and thats kind of new game plus - or like it is called this days within games.

The hammer she used the first time to finaly activate the fire alarm. The bucket. Yes, the bucket, the blue butterfly had sit on. Samuals cleaning car/trolly with or without the scubbing brush. Or even Maxine herself, maybe ramming Nathan. And even if somebody still get an shot and be wounded, Maxine seem not to be an stupid young woman, she maybe that smart to use some tampons to stop or slow down bleeding until help is arrived. She maybe get wounded herself (same kind of options as in the scene with Frank, Chloe and Maxine at his camper). From vanilla to very very very sad ending that may had have all in (included an physical price to pay of the fate of Chloe and the town). At that point, it is still an game, not wanting that the player got too much options to choose from. Sure an very good one, which more than any other one i’ve ever played may fully titled as Art and not plane entertainment. Really, who cares about grafhic effects or support of special hardware, while the game concept and story matching, striking, taking you with it. But i should have known better from what i’ve experienced in life.

So, again. My respect for that moment of clear mind and insight, mam. And sorry for texting too much and in some bad english, but with your statement i’ve felt to honor you with the same level of insights of myself.

Lehkeri, i hope you know what kind of an good woman you’ve by your side.


greetings,
Jennifer

Heads up, the next post is written by my wife, just so you know. I really do wish she'd make her own account, this might confuse people. Anyway, here goes.



Hi Jennifer!

I'm grateful that you told your very personal story and it does put your reasoning into perspective. You chose the ending that seems correct to you and it's the right thing to do. Thank you for reading my thoughts, even though we chose differently. I have never really played games, especially ones with stories. This game touched me so deeply, that I can't explain. When I was younger, I was like Chloe. Rebellious, doing stupid stuff, being angry. My friends left me as we grew older, that made me feel like I was alone. Just like Chloe. I know this sounds so silly, but it's true. It was not until I found my "Max" that I realized how loved I was. That I could be loved. After that, I matured. I wasn't angry anymore.

This game is not a game for me. It's a personal journey. I'm glad I got to experience it.

-Suvi-

pilottjLIS
23rd Oct 2015, 20:06
Not bad for a $20 game eh? Maybe it isn't so much of a game as it is an interactive story.

Some people think the choices don't matter, and they don't if you think in a linear way, expecting linear cause and effect relationships. LIS is clearly not linear, so the relationships between choice and effect should not be linear too. Choices do matter if alot if you see it in a more abstract sense.

Throughout the game you have choices on how to interact with the other chracters. You can choose to be friendly, supportive, antagonistic, uncaring, or in some cases, avoid them completely. The choices you make might have an impact on the choice you make in the end. Yet even with this there is no black and white cause/effect path to pick A or B based on your previous choices. You make the final choice simply based on how you feel Max should go.

For instance, if you had a strong attraction to Chloe, supported/defended her, helped Kate, saw the good in Victoria, helped Alyssa, was friendly to the fisherman and trucker, helped David and Joyce back together....you might have strong reasons to sacrifice the town (known the town will be physically destroyed, yet there will be many survivors), because it would be a disservice to all the people Max had made a positive impact on by resetting things. Then again, maybe if you were less keen on Chloe, didn't support her as much, yet helped Kate, Victoria...etc, Max have may have good reason to 'reset' everything, so you could help them again.

If you chose to have Max be more selfish and not help people as much...yet maintain a strong relationship with Chloe, those may be reasons for her to sacrifice the town. However if Max ignored helping people, she may have felt guilty and wished to 'reset' everything so she could be more proactive toward others...ie helping Kate, recognizing the good in Victoria...etc.

There is no, I did choice A, B, C, D....so therefore I must do Y at the end. Its completely subjective, depending on how you 'feel' about what you had done in the past.

Thats what I love about this game, it isn't on rails, it isn't a linear path, it doesn't tie up loose ends, it leaves much to be interpreted by you. There is no nicely packaged ending. Both endings are grey...they could be good or bad endings depending on how you interpret the events.

Personally, based on my playthrough with Max, I see saving Chloe as accepting the consequences, and moving on without any more alterations to time, was the 'happy ending'. I had other reasons too, mainly knowing there would be many survivors. (the nightmare was just Max's own fear trying to goad her into making a fear based decision with a false idea that there would be no survivors). Heck, even the idea that Max actually caused the storm may also simply be her own self guilt making her think she caused it. I also feel the town was already on a path to destruction prior to Max's involvement because of the Prescott greed.

I think this is true to life in many ways, we can either make a choice based on love or fear. Saving Chloe is a choice rooted in love, saving the town is a choice rooted in fear. Personally I think it is best to make choices rooted in love. That is just a personal observation. Others may see saving the town as based on love, and saving Chloe based on fear.

I agree, the save Chloe ending could have been done with more detail, but as I understand from some other posts, Dontnod was running out of time/budget. Hopefully they can address this with some kind of Extended cut or something.

Yes, this is a 'touchy feely artistic game', and what a nice break from all the 'blow em up' combat games.

Glad you enjoy the game as much as I did, I really hope Dontnod is encouraged to do more seasons.

Again, not bad for a $20 game eh?

Cheers

Tataboj
23rd Oct 2015, 20:51
Sorry for not reacting much on the topic, but since it is briefly mentioned, I needed to put it here.

This genre (movie adventure game/interactive movie) has so much potential in being more than "just" a game. Movies have to be 2 hours long max, if they are longer, people complain, but the longer the game is, the better. Also the game gives you the option to take it how fast you want, you can slow down and/or explore everything. And of course, choices make your story personalized, you can identify with it.

TyrelHun
23rd Oct 2015, 21:03
I'm also sorry for going off topic here but:

1. Agree with Tataboj (and actually with most of the posts above)

2. Is it only me feeling that time and especially budget is one of the sillyest excuses for a game like this. There are so MANY games that are waaaaaay worse than Life is Strange in it's unfinished state ever could be, yet are costing more. There are people out there - like me - you know Dontnod that favor good stories and characters above anything else.
Come on, why is it okay to pay 50-60$ for a Call of Duty game that allows you to kill dozens of brainless NPCs and has no meaning whatsoever, but a game that has a high emotional effect on you, a game that you want to remember for all eternity is only worth 20$ and has to struggle with finances? This is stupid. Life really is strange, huh?
I hereby announce that if a sixth episode would ever come I'd pay the full price of an AAA game for that one single episode (as long as it's still about Chloe and Max, hopefully giving a worthy closure). :worship:

Lehkeri
23rd Oct 2015, 22:45
I'm also sorry for going off topic here but:

1. Agree with Tataboj (and actually with most of the posts above)

2. Is it only me feeling that time and especially budget is one of the sillyest excuses for a game like this. There are so MANY games that are waaaaaay worse than Life is Strange in it's unfinished state ever could be, yet are costing more. There are people out there - like me - you know Dontnod that favor good stories and characters above anything else.
Come on, why is it okay to pay 50-60$ for a Call of Duty game that allows you to kill dozens of brainless NPCs and has no meaning whatsoever, but a game that has a high emotional effect on you, a game that you want to remember for all eternity is only worth 20$ and has to struggle with finances? This is stupid. Life really is strange, huh?
I hereby announce that if a sixth episode would ever come I'd pay the full price of an AAA game for that one single episode (as long as it's still about Chloe and Max, hopefully giving a worthy closure). :worship:

Agreed.

Dire87
24th Oct 2015, 11:47
These type of games have the same effect on my gf. She is not a gamer by any stretch of the imagination (occasionally a round of Trials Fusion or sth like that, because BIKES!!!!!), but yea, she does like the Telltale style games quite a bit, which is fantastic, as it's an easy way to see someone else deal with the choices and story...if she only paid more attention to her surroundings. *sigh*

Anyway, your wife's argument is perfectly valid, as well as the complaint about the ending. I still can't let go of this game...even days later, which is unprecedented.

Lehkeri
26th Oct 2015, 14:04
Hah, my wife just realized that Max subconsciously thinks Warren is somewhat creepy :D

(In the nightmare scene you can find Warren's locker. If you open it, it's filled with creepy images and dolls of Max, making it his little shrine...)

KristaD
26th Oct 2015, 14:07
Hah, my wife just realized that Max subconsciously thinks Warren is somewhat creepy :D

(In the nightmare scene you can find Warren's locker. If you open it, it's filled with creepy images and dolls of Max, making it his little shrine...)

Lol, what would we do with out creepy fans like that ? :)

Tataboj
26th Oct 2015, 18:11
Haha, and in my playthrough, in the nightmare Warren was making out with Chloe, saying Max's kiss was horrible, which means Max loves him. She likes creepy boys. :D

Lehkeri
27th Oct 2015, 19:22
I'm gonna add more of my thoughts, effectively stealing my wife's thread. I'm sure she'll scold me later.

And as a reminder, yes, I chose to sacrifice arcadia.

I still stand behind my words for show and tell. Authors can choose, to some extent, leave things unanswered. For example the suitcase in Pulp Fiction. No one knows what's in it. Or the last package in Cast Away. Same thing. But in this ending, too much is left unanswered. Way too much.

I am not a professional writer, not by a long shot. I've never had my work published, perhaps because I've never put them out in public. But I've been writing and telling stories my whole life. And I've been reading them.

I can give another example from the story I'm writing. In it, the main character's whole life's purpose is to open a set of iron doors. She knows only that her mother, father and sister are in there. She cannot open them, no matter how hard she tries. Over the years she visits the said doors, hits them, yells at them, cries at them.

Now at the end of the story, when she finally has the means to open those doors and she faces them again, would you like me to stop telling the story there? It would make a nice ending, no? Artistic, mysterious and open-ended. Perhaps.

But it would leave the reader unsatisfied. My story would have failed if they didn't want to know what happened to the family inside those doors. It would have failed if the reader didn't want the character to open them. And as such, I'd have failed as a writer.

PalatineKatinka
27th Oct 2015, 23:52
Hah, my wife just realized that Max subconsciously thinks Warren is somewhat creepy :D

Did you two notice that the creepy maze is entirely male characters hunting Max? They could have had Victoria or her cronies or even Dana going on about Max going to her halloween party but, nope! Max's subconcious creates a creepy maze of trying to avoid creepy men.

Regarding your wife's opening post, yeah, that's pretty much how I felt once I'd thought about it for a bit. There was never any chance of me sacrificing Chloe but after I thought about I did realise that there were more reasons than Chloe being awesome and it just reaffirmed my decision.