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Lehkeri
22nd Oct 2015, 14:35
Okay, first of all, sorry about the title. I do suck at naming them...

Anyway, Life is Strange's final episode was released a couple of days ago. Before that release, the devs were fairly active (at least those who I follow on twitter), posting stuff and interacting with fans. But after the release, all I've seen is retweets of other people. Am I missing something? Am I following the "wrong" people? Why aren't they answering questions?

I know it may not be common practice for companies to engage with fans over social medias, but that was the image I got from Dontnod. Please don't be quiet. Interact with us!

Dire87
22nd Oct 2015, 15:12
There may be several reasons for that.

1. There is a lot of fallout regarding the end. The hate spewing on social media and in forums must be pretty harsh from what I've seen. And you know even one negative comment can completely ruin your day, so the people on social media might either not be willing to comment on those posts at the moment or they have even been told by PR to not comment, until they have agreed on a unified answer. There is nothing worse in PR than different people voicing their opinions, when those opinions don't align with the message the company wishes to send. It may be honest, but in the end it will put more people off than it'll help, as these comments are often made in "the heat of the moment" and with things like this you want to think about what you're going to reply.

2. They might be reading and gathering everything for an official post instead of replying to every message now.

3. Game finally finished, I guess lots of folks are going to be on a short vacation ;)

Just some reasons I can think of right now.

CrystalXPredator
22nd Oct 2015, 15:59
There may be several reasons for that.

1. There is a lot of fallout regarding the end. The hate spewing on social media and in forums must be pretty harsh from what I've seen. And you know even one negative comment can completely ruin your day, so the people on social media might either not be willing to comment on those posts at the moment or they have even been told by PR to not comment, until they have agreed on a unified answer. There is nothing worse in PR than different people voicing their opinions, when those opinions don't align with the message the company wishes to send. It may be honest, but in the end it will put more people off than it'll help, as these comments are often made in "the heat of the moment" and with things like this you want to think about what you're going to reply.

2. They might be reading and gathering everything for an official post instead of replying to every message now.

3. Game finally finished, I guess lots of folks are going to be on a short vacation ;)

Just some reasons I can think of right now.

Well spoken.

Lehkeri
22nd Oct 2015, 16:15
There may be several reasons for that.

1. There is a lot of fallout regarding the end. The hate spewing on social media and in forums must be pretty harsh from what I've seen. And you know even one negative comment can completely ruin your day, so the people on social media might either not be willing to comment on those posts at the moment or they have even been told by PR to not comment, until they have agreed on a unified answer. There is nothing worse in PR than different people voicing their opinions, when those opinions don't align with the message the company wishes to send. It may be honest, but in the end it will put more people off than it'll help, as these comments are often made in "the heat of the moment" and with things like this you want to think about what you're going to reply.

2. They might be reading and gathering everything for an official post instead of replying to every message now.

3. Game finally finished, I guess lots of folks are going to be on a short vacation ;)

Just some reasons I can think of right now.

Perhaps you're right.

Lehkeri
23rd Oct 2015, 16:20
I wonder if they're in some sort of "damage control" mode? Some responses found in different social medias are quite... vile and angry.

KristaD
23rd Oct 2015, 16:44
I would not be surprised if they are just discussing how to deal with "internet outrage", witch is no easy task given how some people behave online when they don't get what they want, or if something doesn't live up their expectations.

I've always wondered why people think buying a product that would be considered an art (like this game) entitles the buyer to make demands about it not meeting their standards, I wonder if people do with books as well...

StrangerThanFiction
23rd Oct 2015, 16:50
I would not be surprised if they are just discussing how to deal with "internet outrage", witch is no easy task given how some people behave online when they don't get what they want, or if something doesn't live up their expectations.

I've always wondered why people think buying a product that would be considered an art (like this game) entitles the buyer to make demands about it not meeting their standards, I wonder if people do with books as well...


Yes KristaD, they do it with books as well. Just recently, there was a "big" (I put it in quotes just in case someone has a different perception of big than me) controversy within the Divergent fandom about how Allegiant ended. (I will spare the details just in case there's another fan on here that hasn't read the ending yet.)

KristaD
23rd Oct 2015, 16:54
Yes KristaD, they do it with books as well. Just recently, there was a "big" (I put it in quotes just in case someone has a different perception of big than me) controversy within the Divergent fandom about how Allegiant ended. (I will spare the details just in case there's another fan on here that hasn't read the ending yet.)

Oh, I think know that, but then I just read my books and leave it at that.

I personally that things lose some of their meaning/value if the creators start catering too much to their (target) audience, just look at the crap Michael Bay spews out....

julietxjules
23rd Oct 2015, 17:34
How's that saying go. . ."you can please some of the people some the time, but not all the people all of the time."

And with freedom of choice in mind: none of us had to buy this game, but we did so in the hope (or belief) that we would get to experience something different. There have been many games that, in the past I have bought and ended up being hugely disappointed with but, I made that choice to begin with and have only myself to blame for buying them in the first place.

Jack_Forest
23rd Oct 2015, 18:06
It's been pretty much confirmed that time and budget were an issue by the end, why not simply release an Extended cut DLC to improve the ending? If it would cost 1-2 dollars, I am sure most people would buy it and be happy. Heck, at this point it would be enough to announce such a release at some point - most raging would stop.

StrangerThanFiction
23rd Oct 2015, 18:11
It's been pretty much confirmed that time and budget were an issue by the end, why not simply release an Extended cut DLC to improve the ending? If it would cost 1-2 dollars, I am sure most people would buy it and be happy. Heck, at this point it would be enough to announce such a release at some point - most raging would stop.


A main part of the reason why is that they're already working on another game; Vampyr. Dontnod is a small indie developer, so they most likely don't have all the resources to allocate to more than one project at a time (though I do agree with you).

Lehkeri
23rd Oct 2015, 18:20
How's that saying go. . ."you can please some of the people some the time, but not all the people all of the time."

And with freedom of choice in mind: none of us had to buy this game, but we did so in the hope (or belief) that we would get to experience something different. There have been many games that, in the past I have bought and ended up being hugely disappointed with but, I made that choice to begin with and have only myself to blame for buying them in the first place.

True that.

StrangerThanFiction
23rd Oct 2015, 18:21
How's that saying go. . ."you can please some of the people some the time, but not all the people all of the time."

And with freedom of choice in mind: none of us had to buy this game, but we did so in the hope (or belief) that we would get to experience something different. There have been many games that, in the past I have bought and ended up being hugely disappointed with but, I made that choice to begin with and have only myself to blame for buying them in the first place.

Truth.

You can't please everyone.

Jack_Forest
23rd Oct 2015, 18:23
A main part of the reason why is that they're already working on another game; Vampyr. Dontnod is a small indie developer, so they most likely don't have all the resources to allocate to more than one project at a time (though I do agree with you).

I understand that and I think, in this case, even a number of still shots would be enough. Besides, doing something like that would really help Dontnod's reputation, resulting in better sales for their next game (or even for Remember Me).

Ross42899
23rd Oct 2015, 19:38
I would not be surprised if they are just discussing how to deal with "internet outrage", witch is no easy task given how some people behave online when they don't get what they want, or if something doesn't live up their expectations.

Well, I think first of all Dontnod should simply ignore all people who just rant and post rude comments. Those people are not helping at all. Then Dontnod should focus on people/comments who are tyring to give some constructive crtiticism. And then they should make a final decision based upon all the feedback/constructive criticism.



I understand that and I think, in this case, even a number of still shots would be enough. Besides, doing something like that would really help Dontnod's reputation, resulting in better sales for their next game (or even for Remember Me).

Yes. I agree. As I already mentioned before in several other threads, it would be an very easy task (which doesn't need that many resources) to just polish and flesh out the existing endings up a little bit. Especially the "Sacrifice Arcadia Bay" ending. Just add a few additional shots (e.g. showing survivors of Arcadia Bay, etc.) here and there, add a few lines of additional dialogue and maybe an epilogue photo slide show, and the ending would be much better. This could probably be done by just one or two programers in about two weeks or so.

For example that one guy over at youtube, who added the "Max & Chloe kiss" scene to the "Sacrifice Arcadia Bay" ending. He added that shot to the ending in what? Two days? So I don't see why the devs couldn't officially add such a scene to the ending as well. Not much work needed to do so, and this ending would IMO be way better.

So, I'm really, really hoping that the devs decide to flesh out the existing endings a litte bit at least . Add a bit more explanation and closure. That's all I would like to see.

Dire87
24th Oct 2015, 11:42
We never know until they announce something. Maybe they are perfectly happy with how ep5 and the end turned out, despite the "budget and time constraints". Remember that these constraints are NORMAL in any "artsy" industry. It's the same with movies or books as well. There are budgets to adhere to and deadlines to meet. That being said...**** all the haters, who spew out that vile bull**** on social media or on forums. It's so irritating. This entitlement. People here are "asking" nicely and providing constructive feedback, while comments elsewhere are all like "**** them, I want my money back, cry cry, never buy a game from them again, the betrayed me..." WTF is wrong with people? Just because they didn't get what they wanted?

Arcadiagamer
24th Oct 2015, 20:40
Where it's confirmed that they have problem with time and money? In any sites i read this, and in others that they did make the game how they write at the beginning.

--TIE--
24th Oct 2015, 21:17
If it right and they state it during the NYCC I think thats the truth. Now after the episode it´s out they try to lower the damage and maybe are contractual bond to "official" comment´s like stay loyal with your employer.

Ross42899
24th Oct 2015, 22:00
Where it's confirmed that they have problem with time and money? In any sites i read this, and in others that they did make the game how they write at the beginning.

I guess it's something of both. I think that the major plot points and final outcome/decisons were planned all along. But because of time/money they had to cut some things out at the end. I assume the actual conent didn't change a lot (possibly some details were cut), but the way how it was presented to us might have changed (I would guess the "Sacrfice Arcadia Bay" ending was supposed to show more content/details at the end).

Maybe there was an additional third ending planned as well (Max sacrifices herself?), which was cut. But that's just pure speculation on my side.

PinkFrog
24th Oct 2015, 22:08
Uh common... "you can't please anyone" is a very weak statement.
You will never please all. That is kinda "Cpt. Obvious" and not worth mentioning. But that shouldn't stop you from trying your best to deliver a great story (that makes sense and evokes emotions that make the audience happy/sad/like they want to come back and get some more of it...)
I'm sorry, but somewhere this story here went off the tracks. And now it ends with an emotional trauma for many players. This is not "some like others don't". This is really horrible for many.

Tataboj
24th Oct 2015, 22:14
Uh common... "you can't please anyone" is a very weak statement.
You will never please all. That is kinda "Cpt. Obvious" and not worth mentioning. But that shouldn't stop you from trying your best to deliver a great story (that makes sense and evokes emotions that make the audience happy/sad/like they want to come back and get some more of it...)
I'm sorry, but somewhere this story here went off the tracks. And now it ends with an emotional trauma for many players. This is not "some like others don't". This is really horrible for many.

From Ep 1 we were expecting it's not gonna end with "happily ever after"

Lehkeri
24th Oct 2015, 22:18
Where it's confirmed that they have problem with time and money? In any sites i read this, and in others that they did make the game how they write at the beginning.

There was a tweet that either was fake or has now been deleted since I cannot find it. I know nothing anymore.

CrystalXPredator
24th Oct 2015, 22:22
Where it's confirmed that they have problem with time and money? In any sites i read this, and in others that they did make the game how they write at the beginning.

https://www.reddit.com/r/lifeisstrange/comments/3pj5xu/ep5_spoilers_michel_koch_about_one_of_the_endings/ it's the only link I had found now.

--TIE--
24th Oct 2015, 22:27
From Ep 1 we were expecting it's not gonna end with "happily ever after"

mhhh...dont compare the one with the other...

Well we know and the game told us it can go all wrong but to rush-end a game has nothing to do with the story. And if you compare the first 4 episodes with the last, special the two endings you see there is something wrong totaly indipendendly from the question are that good, bad, horrible, sad or anything else choices you are forced to make at the end.

--TIE--
24th Oct 2015, 22:45
https://www.reddit.com/r/lifeisstrange/comments/3pj5xu/ep5_spoilers_michel_koch_about_one_of_the_endings/ it's the only link I had found now.

Sounds a little bit cheap...we want do it right, now "its good like it is" the smiling is enought, use your own imagination...but we are under time and money pressure and do the best we can...Sorry if this wasn't showed enough though.

Its what Lehkeri told us about to write a story and what every author should had in mind. "Dont think Show!" The audience didnt know what you have in your mind if you dont tell it and dont show it...

I cant belive that these ppl can make pure gold over four episodes and than fall so deep and forgott all about story telling!?

Tataboj
24th Oct 2015, 22:48
mhhh...dont compare the one with the other...

Well we know and the game told us it can go all wrong but to rush-end a game has nothing to do with the story. And if you compare the first 4 episodes with the last, special the two endings you see there is something wrong totaly indipendendly from the question are that good, bad, horrible, sad or anything else choices you are forced to make at the end.

Well, he was talking about trauma, not rushed end.

--TIE--
24th Oct 2015, 22:57
Oh I thought the trauma comes from the rushed and unfinished end...not from the bad end at all...sorry If I missed it...

Arcadiagamer
24th Oct 2015, 23:17
I see, thanks for the aclarations.

PinkFrog
25th Oct 2015, 12:23
Oh I thought the trauma comes from the rushed and unfinished end...not from the bad end at all...sorry If I missed it...

For a lot of people it might. For me, it's the cheap shot at our feeling with that absurd decision in the end.
Btw. did anyone here play fable 2? They are doing the same there. Exactly the same, just a different narrative build-up. It sucked there, in a bad way, just as much as it sucks here. It's not bittersweet, or grey... it just sucks.

EDIT: I'm in the anger phase. It's part of the steps for recovering from psychological trauma ;)

--TIE--
25th Oct 2015, 22:09
I understand. Its hard in two way´s. The decisions you had to made are fubar and even if you prepare that chloe may die in the very end after all this episodes you are badly suprised with that binary choice. Thats part one. Than even you dont care about Arcadia and choose to save Chloe, you only got a epilog who is made without heart and soul so all things you made before that seems to crumble to dust with this short drive through a lifeless town.

Maybe even it´s a bad or harmfull decision between this two, if the sacrifice arcadia epilog was made with more time, more touch for the story and how you played it you can make your peace with it!?

PinkFrog
25th Oct 2015, 22:44
This whole enterprise, telling us a story about saving your best friend with a magical gift only to kill her off in the end by specifically not using that gift because it actually kills everybody else (plus some major flaws in simple logic)... it's just... incredibly pointless. It's not even.. i dunno... deep, or meaningful. It's just a setup for a kick in the groin for everybody that actually cared for the characters. Sorry to say.
No way to make that look pretty.
And what a waste. This could have been the sweetest thing ever.

I hope some people get something out of it with a lot of rationalization and whatever gets them through the day.

--TIE--
25th Oct 2015, 22:56
Sorry to say.

No its right, dont blame you to say it. I see it the same way. At last they lost the touch to the game, maybe bcs. they went out of money or bcs. they are realy convinced it was a good ending. In either way they are made a 180° turn if you compare the first 4 episodes with the 5th. Maybe they want made a story about the danger of timealtering but it focused more on the realtionship and in the end they come back to their initial Idear...time travling is evil...

PinkFrog
26th Oct 2015, 10:29
No its right, dont blame you to say it. I see it the same way. At last they lost the touch to the game, maybe bcs. they went out of money or bcs. they are realy convinced it was a good ending. In either way they are made a 180° turn if you compare the first 4 episodes with the 5th. Maybe they want made a story about the danger of timealtering but it focused more on the realtionship and in the end they come back to their initial Idear...time travling is evil...

The thing is, it's really hard for me cope, currently :p. Being dismissive helps me but I don't want to be like that. I loved the game until ep 5 and i still want to love it...

Its all screwed up...

--TIE--
26th Oct 2015, 10:50
Its all screwed up...

Yeha thats the same what I think in the first moment...and the fist feeling often is right...now with a little bit time I still think the same but from a more rational point of view. But how I try to see it or with wich reason its still screwed up. I wish I had stoped to play this game after episode 4 :hmm:

Lehkeri
26th Oct 2015, 10:50
And I can see why they're being quiet. Steam forums are turning vile again.

--TIE--
26th Oct 2015, 10:56
And I can see why they're being quiet. Steam forums are turning vile again.

Oh realy...must see...

KristaD
26th Oct 2015, 11:09
And I can see why they're being quiet. Steam forums are turning vile again.

I'm not surprised, some people are just like spoiled brats over not getting what they want.

Ross42899
26th Oct 2015, 11:31
I simply can't understand why people can't discuss in a civilized way. Why do so many people have to rant and offend other people?

--TIE--
26th Oct 2015, 11:33
yo I read and notice it allready. some ppl are basicly against all. I think that should not be a problem. But I see a problem with too many petition´s...and thats a way how this haters can realy score an hit against us. bcs. that I dont talk a lot about it...let them do and watch as long we stay freindly and constructive we are right.

--TIE--
26th Oct 2015, 11:35
I simply can't understand why people can't discuss in a civilized way. Why do so many people have to rant and offend other people?

Its the anonymity of the www. I think less than 1% from this ppl who basickly rage or are against all can do this in real life so they seek confirmation in the www. And if we response they think they are right. Simply ignore, even it´s hard sometimes.

KristaD
26th Oct 2015, 11:41
I simply can't understand why people can't discuss in a civilized way. Why do so many people have to rant and offend other people?

I did some looking into this a while back. It is as Tie said, the anonymity of being behind a keyboard turns some people into total *******, and then there is confirmation bias as well. I think some people actually lack the knowledge to offer a constructive critique instead of random tolling...

--TIE--
26th Oct 2015, 11:43
I did some looking into this a while back. It is as Tie said, the anonymity of being behind a keyboard turns some people into total *******, and then there is confirmation bias as well. I think some people actually lack the knowledge to offer a constructive critique instead of random tolling...

qft 100% <- or more if possible :)

PinkFrog
26th Oct 2015, 14:57
Yep. Steam is more active than here but wow... it's a rough place. On both side actually, haters and lovers.

That being said, I do appreciate a sharp criticism where it's due. Developers often respond to praise only and they shouldn't. If you goofed, you have to man up and accept the criticism. Otherwise you loose too much credibility.

For me, the ME3 debacle was actually more about the devs pretending it was all the audience' fault (even years later). That is bad behaviour and nullifies any kind of trust that was there before.

I hope this will not re-occur here.

P.S. not all criticism is valid, of course. Some may be due to misunderstanding or oversights from the audience. But this also can be clearified. Devs should stop see themselves as some kind of demi-good that bestows upon their sheep finely crafted pieces of art, only to be praised and not to be questioned. But more of a collaborator. The experience and feedback is as much part of the art as is it's creation. Games are a social medium by nature, after all. Well... at least in some way I suppose.

KristaD
26th Oct 2015, 15:08
Yep. Steam is more active than here but wow... it's a rough place. On both side actually, haters and lovers.

That being said, I do appreciate a sharp criticism where it's due. Developers often respond to praise only and they shouldn't. If you goofed, you have to man up and accept the criticism. Otherwise you loose too much credibility.

For me, the ME3 debacle was actually more about the devs pretending it was all the audience' fault (even years later). That is bad behaviour and nullifies any kind of trust that was there before.

I hope this will not re-occur here.

P.S. not all criticism is valid, of course. Some may be due to misunderstanding or oversights from the audience. But this also can be clearified. Devs should stop see themselves as some kind of demi-good that bestows upon their sheep finely crafted pieces of art, only to be praised and not to be questioned. But more of a collaborator. The experience and feedback is as much part of the art as is it's creation. Games are a social medium by nature, after all. Well... at least in some way I suppose.

I've seen a similar failure of both parties to come on an understanding. It was in the War Thunder forums a while back, people calling the devs. and forum/community managers "untermenschen" and similar things, the other side just fired at will with the ban hammer... it was a complete mess until some one posted the Extra Credits vid. about community management, I think that had some positive effects on the forum mods. since they starting behaving more humanly.

Lehkeri
26th Oct 2015, 16:06
Perhaps they'll comment on the endings some day. Michel Koch apparently still on holiday, according to twitter.

This tweet
https://twitter.com/DONTNOD_Michel/status/658486830397001729

is most likely a response towards the whole game. He may not be aware of the debate going on. Or he is and this is their official stance, which I then accept.

PinkFrog
26th Oct 2015, 16:55
Also, keep in mind that he's the art guy. The art is brilliant up to the very end.

Lehkeri
28th Oct 2015, 10:50
Also, keep in mind that he's the art guy. The art is brilliant up to the very end.

And he's also listed as "Co-game creator".

But yeah, I'd wish they said something specific. You know, comment about the whole murmur, if you will. They probably won't, but it'd be nice.

A simple "The endings are the way we wanted and will not be touching them" would be enough for me. It would give me a chance to re-evaluate this game and my feelings about it as a whole. And my willingness to stay as their customer.

PinkFrog
28th Oct 2015, 11:00
What do you expect? The endings didn't happen accidentally. Months of work went into them.
They are not everything they wanted to do (as per reddit post) but what is there is fully intentionally.

And what can they say? "oopsy, sorry 'bout that?"

But it always feels nice to feel understood, I suppose.

Dire87
28th Oct 2015, 12:14
Well, they can say that they are happy with their choices or they could say that given the time and resources they would like to reevaluate episode 5 and the end. That's really just it.

PinkFrog
28th Oct 2015, 17:10
Well, they can say that they are happy with their choices or they could say that given the time and resources they would like to reevaluate episode 5 and the end. That's really just it.

k, fair enough I suppose

Dire87
28th Oct 2015, 17:24
Of course they don't have to, but engaging the community, a supportive community at that, might not be a bad idea at that moment. Obviously a lot of people care deeply for that game and the devs in that case. Not acknowledging the Steam forums, their own forums, the rampant internet posts and petitions (lol, yea, I just said petitions to change a game...*sigh*) just doesn't look like good PR and will potentially alienate a lot of future customers and loyal fans...or it could have absolutely no consequences, who's to say. I just think they should react in some way. Personal opinion. If someone talked so vigorously about my game, then I'd sure want to chime in.

Lehkeri
28th Oct 2015, 19:35
They should say something, sooner rather than later, since at least the steam forums are getting a tad...

...out of hand.

Dire87
28th Oct 2015, 23:10
They should say something, sooner rather than later, since at least the steam forums are getting a tad...

...out of hand.

a tad? Yea, that's an understatement. I won't go near that cess pool again. I rather stay here.