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Vanguard
29th Jun 2002, 03:06
So now we have 3 forums:

Thief Legacy
Thief 3
Thief Prattle (this forum - okay, "Chat" is a nicer word)

Seems this will only promote cross posting of messages. If a person is having a problem with an original or fan mission, do they post it here or in Thief Legacy? If they post it in Thief Legacy where it probably is the most appropriate forum (by its definition only) then they miss out on getting responses from those that frequent mostly the chat forum. To post in the chat forum means it could get ignored in the wash of prattle. So it seems inevitable that messages are going to get posted in multiple Thief forums to get the most coverage and best audience in trying to get a response. It also means that members have to go wandering around more forums to read ALL the messages. If you don't think so, just start monitoring newsgroups to see how often people will crosspost across numerous newsgroups to better their chance at getting a response.

As is already evident by the post counts for these new forums, to guarantee a post gets seen means that it'll have to get posted here and then copied into another forum. Focus will get diluted because of the increased number of Thief forums, but I suspect that eventually this will be the "launch" forum and the others will languish and perish from nonuse.

Too bad we can't define a pseudo-forum that encompas<i></i>ses all of a user's subscribed forums so all messages from all subscribed forums appear as if under forum, in one place, and with replies or posts going to the appropriate real forum.

TRoosevelt_26
29th Jun 2002, 03:12
My thoughts exactly! I will end up posting in all three from time to time so that everyone I need to see something will see it, but that is going to be a lot of extra posts, and the ones in the OT forum will most likely get missed. We already have (had) an OT forum, and all the junk/rabble/trash went there. Now the Thief OT forum is going to get like that one, and we'll feel less all-in-one-place/home/whatever, you lot know what I mean. This way, the OT will filter itself to what was in the old forum - only the "best." None of the junk we'll likely see soon. :(

I'm afraid for this forum - that it will just devolve into one of those clogged, useless, squabbling sites someday. If we are all on one site, keeping ourselves accountable and dumping all the OT in the real OT forum (I mean, OT is for everyone, not just Thief players; if a Thief player can benefit by it, why not a Tomb Raider player?) while keeping the mildly-OT-but-good-for-us here where we can see it and the OM posts as well as the FM and DromEd posts, this place will be bonded much more strongly.

I vote for the old one-forum system!

PS - Good grief! Somebody needs to fix the censor in this place.

<small>[edit: it's not there now, but Vanguard used the forbidden word "encomp*****"]</small>

ChowYunFat
29th Jun 2002, 03:26
I'm not sure of the multiple forums either. I guess that if people start ignoring the other forums to post their questions on the general chat forum that the others will be dropped & we'll be back to the one forum we're used to. On the other hand, in the old forum I never used to read the posts about Dromed--nothing against Dromeders, it's just that I'll never be an FM designer & usually didn't understand what they were talking about. So putting them in a separate folder so they don't "clutter up" the general chat is a good idea (likewise for the posts asking when T3 will be released). If the mods are aggressive in keeping people from cross-posting then the multiple forums could work out very well, but only time will tell.

Peter_Smith
29th Jun 2002, 03:31
I agree that it will dilute things, and it will make threads harder to see. It is more trouble to check into different forums to see what is going on. It will also make moderating more difficult. I made this point when the new forum was being designed, but I was told that this was an Eidos business decision. The purpose of the organization we see here is to separate topics promoting Thief from other topics that do not, and to provide a slot (Thief 3) for discussion of the new game when it is released and as it is being designed - as a marketing tool.

However, I do not agree with some of the comments made above. It is dead simple to distinguish an OM from a FM. Questions about OM's go into the Thief Legacy. Questions about FM's go into the FM category. All formerly OT discussions go into the Crippled Burrick. That part is not hard.

The only problem with classifications I have seen so far is what to do with the techinical questions, such as those having to do with computers, tech support, etc. I think we need another category for that.

I object strongly to making multiple posts just so they will be seen by more people. You will generally know what forum they belong in. If moderators see a post in the wrong category, they can move it to the correct category and leave a link where the original mis-cateorized post was made. If they see duplications, they should probably just delete the duplicate. Please, do not make our lives more difficult by creating a lot of spam in the wrong forum categories.
On the other hand, if the system that has been set up proves to be unworkable for some reason, after a reasonable trial period, I am sure that then we would be justified to request a change.

TRoosevelt_26
29th Jun 2002, 03:36
I am thinking in particular of asking people to help with my FM project: what if they don't frequent the DromEd forum much because they won't/can't DromEd, but they could draw, voiceover, do video, alpha/beta test, work with sound or give suggestions as to plot/situations/etc.? Then they would (likely) never see my posts on the topic. :(

PS - However, I am sure you will do what is best.

Peter_Smith
29th Jun 2002, 03:42
TR,

It seems quite clear to me that asking for help to develop or test a FM belongs in the Dromed/FM category. People who are interested in FM's and building them or playing them will see it. Practically everyone on this board is interested in FM's, so how can you lose?

TRoosevelt_26
29th Jun 2002, 03:45
I guess so. *sighs* I guess I just hate change...

ChowYunFat
29th Jun 2002, 03:51
I think a call for voice actors, beta testers or whatever would be appropriate for the chat forum since it's intended to reach a large audience & that's the best way of guaranteeing that it does so. The Dromed forum should be aimed primarily at people discussing the finer points of using that program but a broad call for help on an FM would be acceptable on the chat boad. Just my 2 cents.

Peter_Smith
29th Jun 2002, 04:53
I still think the FM category is described quite clearly:

Discussion about and unoffical help with Dromed, the beloved (heh) Dark Engine editor. Discussion for Thief Fan Missions: Hints and Strategies, How to Download and Play. Like an FM? Say so! Just release an FM? Tell us where to get it.

If you put everything into the Crippled Burrick just because you think it will get more attention, then you will defeat the purpose of the categories and give moderators more of a problem to straighten out.

Vanguard
29th Jun 2002, 04:58
Upon reading the description of the forum, "Dromed and Thief FM's (Fan Missions) - Designer's Corner", I realize that all discussions related to the FMs are supposed to go there. Previously I figured that FM discussions would be under the "Thief Legacy" forum. Why? Because the title for the "Dromed ..." forum begins with "Dromed" and ends with "Designer's Corner" which led me to believe it was just for dromeders.

Geez, with the further separation of OMs from FMs, I can see the Thief Legacy forum will really die fast. Only absolute newbies (i.e., they are just starting playing) are going to ask questions there but the audience will be small in participation that the newbies will never get their questions answered or, at least, without the level of response from having a larger audience available. The Legacy forum might survive if we tire of numerous OT posts in the Chat forum. But there's not a lot of OM queries going on except for new players. Old players will be in the FM ... er, Dromed ... forum.

The audience will tend to participate in the forum where most other taffers also participate. There is a "microsoft.public.win2000.setup" newsgroup that has maybe 12 new posts per day, but I'll still go to "microsoft.public.win2000.general" that has 180+ new posts per day to ask about setup questions just because the audience is larger. I'm guaranteed better results and a broader range of topics in the more active newsgroup.

I don't want to have to crosspost across multiple newsgroups just to ensure that someone responds, so I pick the most populated and active newsgroup. But I've seen PLENTY of other users do crossposting to hedge their bets in trying to get someone to respond (with an appropriate answer). The same will occur here. Users will migrate to where most of the other taffers are. Even if the moderators want to waste lots of time managing crossposts, we'll still end up with lots of "Need help" threads with URL links in their body pointing back to the other forum - any many users will just ignore such moved or redirected posts.

Slicing up the range of topics to create multiple forums isn't going to guarantee a user will post their message in the "proper" forum. I occasionally participate in the "microsoft.public.outlook" newsgroup to give help and to learn. Often you get folks asking questions about Outlook Express. I find it rude when someone tells them only, "This forum is for Outlook. Please visit these other newsgroups for assistance with Outlook Express ...". I first try to give help. If I feel my help is inadequate or they may want a more focused audience then I'll suggest they visit the Outlook Express newsgroups. But just casting them off with a "You don't belong here" message is rude. It would've been better to have never answered their query then to post a "push off" reply.

I really believe that anyone who submits a question regarding OMs in the Thief Legacy forum is going to feel very lonely and mostly just hear their own echo. It will be a forum whose respondents will be dominated by the moderators because it is their responsibility to monitor all these forums. Many of the longtimers are playing FMs (whose posts I now understand go into the "Dromed" forum instead of the "Legacy" forum). Yes, if I wanted to monitor and help with VisualBasic then I could participate in every newsgroup that had anything to do with VB - but I'm not going to! I'll focus where I can get the most bang for my buck.

Eidos' marketers really think that creating a separate T3 forum is going to generate as much interest and activity as letting ALL taffers in on the conversations? I won't bother reading anything in the T3 forum because the game isn't out yet and I'm not into rumours, guessing, and wishlists on a product that doesn't exist and under which I have no direct influence (and won't have any influence until it is out and I pay money for it). The T3 forum is going to die faster than the Thief Legacy forum; it will languish until T3 finally nears its release. "What's happening?" "Nothing." <i>"Anything new?" "nothing"</i> <small>"I wish ..." "nothing" <i>... nothing ... nothing ...</i> <b>dead forum</b>.</small>

Regardless of Eidos' reasoning in creating the multiple forums, I think the users will make a choice of their own. They'll end up tending to use one forum for 90% of their discussions and the other 10% will be mostly unmonitored miscellany (i.e., they will become low-numbered member special interest forums). Only time will tell. My bet: the chat forum will get the most posts until the novelty of the new stuff wears off and the prattle of off-topic posts becomes dominantly nuisancing, and then most of us taffers will be at the <s>Legacy</s> Dromed-FM forum. (I'm still mixing up those 2 forums!)

Peter_Smith
29th Jun 2002, 05:26
Very good points, Vanuard, and I agree with most of them on the surface. However, I should remind you that TTLG has a similar setup to the new Eidos setup, and people still post to the T1/T2, and T3 sections regularly. OK, the T2/T2 is smaller than the FM section at TTLG, but that is OK. It is not dead. If people want it to work, and they exercise a little discipline, then it will work. If people cave in to the mentality of "let's keep it the way it was," then it will be more difficult. I personally resisted this separation idea at first, but when I see how tidy things are at TTLG I am now thinking that this arrangement could work well if people can get behind it.

Look at the T3 section of TTLG. Someone has gone to a lot of trouble to make that worthwhile and constructive. The T3 mission designers consult that area from time to time. All we have here are dumb questions like "when?" Which would you rather have?

Vanguard
29th Jun 2002, 05:32
Well, we'll see. I guess there's always a bit of "horse bucking" for the new and different. It's all new so it'll take time to settle in. I'm still reading the FAQ and playing with all the buttons. "What's this do?" <B>BOOM!</B> <i>wipes soot from face</i>

You know me. I'm the guy that'll deliberately shake the branch with the hornets nest just to see how fast all of us can run.

Komag
29th Jun 2002, 06:29
I just think it will get some getting used to. At TTLG we didn't used to have a totally separate FM forum, and when it was added and I was Mod there my job was a very little one because not many people posted there, but over time with some good management (such as other mods sending FM stuff my way by moving posts and stuff) folks became more and more aware of that forum and it has become just as intended where folks go there to ask all about this or that FM :)

Perhaps the Dromed/FM forum here should be renamed though, to avoid confusion (as it DOES sound a little more Dromed focused rather than FMs). I think something like
"Fan Missions (FMs) Q&A and Discussion, and Dromed Designer's Corner"

I think that the Crippled Burrick is really meant to be an OT forum of the Thief crowd, and the threads there are meant to be the mostly OT ones with some Thief related stuff here and there. But otherwise if it's more Thief related then it will fall into one of the other three forums (Thief Legacy, Thief 3, or Fan Mission/Dromed)

Zaccheus
29th Jun 2002, 09:37
Right now having just one Thief forum was OK, but how many new members will come charging in here once Thief 3 hits the stores.

I think it is a good thing to have the different forums, and I also think that the titles were well chosen.

Gumdrop
29th Jun 2002, 11:17
I for one am glad to see a standalone DromEd/FM forum, but as for the others, I would have preferred them all together mostly for the same reasons as Vanguard.

Now where's the Ghosting forum?! :p

Nightwalker
29th Jun 2002, 14:43
There will be "growing pains" I'm sure, with all the changes happening at once, but I suspect that it will all work out in the long run. It will be more work (and take a lot of patience) for the mods at the beginning, as they will have to go to the trouble of shifting things that are posted in the wrong forums to the right place, but people will get the idea sooner or later.

The T1/T2 forum at TTLG doesn't get a lot of traffic, it's true, but the questions do get seen and answered and not just by the mods. Maybe it would have been better to combine the OMs and the FMs, rather than FMs and dromed, to keep the forum a little busier. I'm sure the dromed forum would be busy on it's own, just like the one at TTLG.

I do agree with Vanguard and Komag that the name is a little slanted towards the dromed view. Making it more obvious that it was for FM questions as well might have been a good idea. Maybe that is still possible?

If it's anything like TTLG, where ever the FM questions end up will soon be quite busy, as they are very popular now.

Stryder
29th Jun 2002, 15:45
As an overall opinion..I would have to say that I liked the "one forum" setup much better.

However.....since we're stuck with multiple forums, lets make the best of it. I very strongly feel the FM's and DromEd don't belong in the same board though.

DromEd should have a board all on it's own....and then maybe leave the FM's to mingle into the other boards (TG, T2, and eventualy T3)

The way it is now........FM "players" will have to sift through the techy DromEd garbage...and the hardcore DromEdders will have to sift through all the FM "gameplay" questions to get to what they are looking for.

[\2 cents]

Nightwalker
29th Jun 2002, 15:56
I don't like the idea of FMs being left to "mingle" at all. That's basically the way it was before the FM forum was created at TTLG and it was very confusing. Questions about FMs popped up in the OM forums, Editor's guild and the General Discussion forum. They definitely need a specified place, but I'm not sure the dromed forum is the right one. :)

Peter_Smith
29th Jun 2002, 16:04
Very good points, Stryder and Nightwalker. Clearly, we need one of two solutions:

Change the name of the FM/Dromed forum to something like Fan Missions

Separate the Dromed from the FM player's areas.

I am sure we can implement one of them. Let's discuss it some more in the FM forum itself under Komag's thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2479#post2479) .

Zaccheus
29th Jun 2002, 16:53
Another thought:
Perhaps it would make sense to have a 'help with missions (OMs & FMs)' forum.
For instance, where would you post the following:
"I have heard you can stack crates and use them to get over walls, how do I do this?"
Would you post that question in the FMs forum or in the Legacy forum?
Thief3 is completely different from Thief1 & Thief2, so having separate forum for Thief3 makes sense.
The DromED forum would then only be for FM creators, and we'd still have the general thief community forum for chit-chat.

Lake
29th Jun 2002, 17:26
Originally posted by Nightwalker
The T1/T2 forum at TTLG doesn't get a lot of traffic, it's true, but the questions do get seen and answered and not just by the mods.

It does not need a lot of traffic because almost every question can be answered by using the search function.

THEthief
29th Jun 2002, 19:04
Personally, I like the idea of one forum only better - not meaning to knock all the work the mods/admins went through, at all, but I think it would be better that way; instead of checking 3 forums, people would only have to check one, etc. :)

DJC
29th Jun 2002, 19:34
I would have the following forums:
<li>Crippled Burrick Inn (Community Chat)
<li>Thief 1/2/3/FMs Questions and Answers
<li>Designers' Corner. (DromEd and Thief3-UnrealEd)

I would say that people who are having technical trouble with their computers, whether it be Thief related or otherwise should then post in the Crippled Burrick Inn.

That's my opinion :)

Nightwalker
1st Jul 2002, 20:37
Hurray! We now have a "Thief Missions" forum that covers OMs and FMs. Dromed now has the other one to itself! :)

Grey Mouser
1st Jul 2002, 21:04
A lot of how the new forums are set up came from our Marketing dept. for reasons known only to them.

I will do my best to bring a happy medium between what I have been instructed to do and what we as the Thief Community think works best for us.

Personally, I liked the old one forum set up better, as it is easier to manage and find pertinent information. However...please bear in mind that what I think is best is not always the way it will be. But as noted, I will try to create a happy medium, and it may take some time before we get all the kinks worked out....your patience is appreciated.

RicknMel
1st Jul 2002, 21:09
GM...
Your patience is appreciated. You have done an excellent job listening to all our whining and trying to satisfy our requests. I think you and your team have done an outstanding job for us. More than most would do. I mean really.....when it boils right down to it...you can set this place up however you want, and we'll have to deal with it. But thats not the attitude I see from you at all. You have bent over backwards to suit our desires.
We appreciate that!

Super job! :)

Nightwalker
1st Jul 2002, 21:32
I'll second that one, RicknMel! Great job, Grey Mouser! Thanks for caring about our opinions. :)

Zaccheus
1st Jul 2002, 22:16
<h1>Grey Mouser, you are the best !!!</h1>

:) :) :)