View Full Version : A forum for just FMs and Dromed - Good Idea?

28th Jun 2002, 21:14
I think this is a good combination - partly hints and help with current FM's, and partly help and guidance to the making of those FM's. Perhaps this can become a great resource over time both to those using Dromed and those playing older FMs (as they get older over time), because users could search this database and have a more specific pool to search from, instead of just the "Everything Thief" forum which can turn up a lot of irrelevant stuff in a search.

Anyway, tell what you think about the new separation of the forums into multiple Thief forums instead of just one, and especially what you think about THIS forum for Dromed/FMs :)

28th Jun 2002, 23:47
It's great ofcourse. I think the first order of the day is to start knocking out posts with clear information about all the usual newbie questions like "my textures are all messed up" etc...

29th Jun 2002, 00:52
I think it should work quite well. The original Editor's Guild, at TTLG, was basically the same thing before they split off the Fan Mission forum and it was fine. When we get stuck on something, there's a better chance the person who made it will see and help out! :)

29th Jun 2002, 05:08
There is a contrary sentiment brewing over at the Crippled Burrick that because there are more people viewing posts there a question about FM's will get more attention there than it will here. See this thread:


I am trying to disuade people of that opinion, but I need some reinforcement.

Nightwalker, you have had more experience with the multiple forum category thing at TTLG. How is that enforced or adhered to? Do people post FM questions in the general discussion category, and, if so, do such posts get moved by the moderators?

29th Jun 2002, 06:07
This forum is NOT "dromeders only". As I've been told, *players* of FMs are to post to this forum, not the Thief Legacy forum (which is for OMs only). That means ghost reports, requests for help (where's the loot, where's the secret, can't find whatever), and opinions (I don't like spawning in my face, too jerky, no objectives or unreadable) are going to get posted here.

*Players* of FMs are supposed to also use this forum. Some dromeders are receptive, some just ignore, and some get inflamed, so I don't know if mixing the players in with the authors is a good idea. The dromeders might also not like "their" forum getting polluted with lots of non-dromed and non-helpful messages. I haven't done a count, but I don't remember many dromed posts in the old forum when compared to the total number of FM posts.

Do the dromeders want to be rafts bobbing on a sea of other posts while trying to communicate with each other? Or, conversely, do dromeders want to isolate themselves from their target audience (i.e., the players)? As a programmer, I don't go talking with Professional Services, Marketing, Shipping, or Sales when I need help with *coding* my methods. Only when I'm ready to publish my code then do I go outside my workgroup.

29th Jun 2002, 06:13
Originally posted by Peter Smith

How is that enforced or adhered to? Do people post FM questions in the general discussion category, and, if so, do such posts get moved by the moderators?

Only at first was it a sort of problem, but now people are quite very used to it an the TTLG FM forum works exactly as it should. Once in a rare while does anyone post in the Thief Gen section and those do sometimes get moved into the FM forum, but it's a rare need to do that.

I think folks here will come to appreciate a forum for FMs and Dromediting specifically, even though most will hang in the Tavern at first especially

29th Jun 2002, 11:26
Wow...Thanks KoMaG. I see you've taken the initiative here. :)

Thorin Oakenshield
29th Jun 2002, 12:18
I think it's a great idea cos' people will be able to search just this part for fm info etc.

29th Jun 2002, 14:25
It works well at TTLG but the forum there is just for FMs. I was a little concerned that some questions could be overlooked and get lost in the dromed stuff, but thinking back to the Editor's forum before the FM forum, most of the questions were found and answered. There should be lots of traffic at the dromed/FM forum and once people see that they are getting their answers promptly, then things will settle down.

The odd question concerning FMs gets posted in the General forum at TTLG and it doesn't always get moved. If it's a simple question with a fast answer, it usually just gets answered and left. Most of the questions are posted by newbies who don't know about the FM forum and they invariably are quickly informed about the other forum by whoever answers and given a link, which usually takes care of it.

I think that as long as the mods take the time to do the same here and move things over to the correct forums, it should work very well in the long run. Depending on the number of FM questions, you may find that you want a seperate forum for them here, too, but that would be up to the admin.

29th Jun 2002, 15:10
Thanks to Komag, we have a lot of dromed posts providing general information. They are so numerous that it is clear we need another way to handle them. As is, either they will eventually be lost or, if bumped, they will make too much clutter at the top, crowding out other discussions. I have already suggested to Grey Mouser that we need another method, such as a separate web page to post reference material.

Some have mentioned elsewhere that the title of this forum is confusing - it now looks like the main emphasis is on dromed and missions editing, so it may discourage people with FM questions from posting here. Komag's recent information will tend to reinforce that idea. So long as the intent is for player's FM questions to be posted here, I think we ought to change the forum title to something like:

Fan Missions - Playing and Creating Them

Any comments before that is cast in stone?

29th Jun 2002, 15:34
I think it is great that there is one FM forum.

As for the title, why not simply call it the Fan Missions Forum.

29th Jun 2002, 16:00
I like that, Zaccheus. It has an elegant simplicity.:D Or, taking it one step further, how about:

Fan Missions

<small>(none of the other forums have the word "forum" in them),</small>

29th Jun 2002, 16:10
Well, all those threads are not intended to stay near the top, but rather I thought they would serve as a start of a search base, so if folks come later one, even months later, and search for things, those threads will be long ago buried buy they'll come up in a search.

Question - are there going to be periodic purges like before? Because if that's the case, then it we won't be able to make such a nice search base like I was thinking.

About the forum title, I think stressing FMs is a good idea, but not to totally leave "Dromed" or "Designing" or something like that out of the title. My (perhaps a bit long) suggestion in the other thread in the CP was "Fan Missions (FMs) Q&A and Discussion, and Dromed Designer's Corner".

EDIT - After reading more of the other thread and this one again, I think I agree with Nightwalker that it might be good to have a totally separate Dromed forum, and then have a forum for FMs and OMs. The forums would then be:

\\Thief Missions// Fan Missions (FMs) and classic Thief OMs discussed. Answers and helps for those tight spots in missions you just can't get past or figure out. Hints, tip, and strategies for FMs and OMs alike. Upcoming FM announcements and sneak previews also welcome!

\\Thief III// General discussion about the highly anticipated sequel to Thief and Thief II. Speculation, rumor and intrigue are welcome here!

\\Dromed Designers Corner// Discussion about and unoffical help with Dromed, the beloved (heh) Dark Engine editor. Helpful tips and guidance to getting your feet wet for beginners and getting your AI's feet wet for advanced users!

\\Thief Comm Chat - Crippled Burrick// Want to talk about who had the best day at the track? Does existence precede essence? Care to visit the Crippled Burrick Inn? Fan Fiction and whatnot. Write your missives here. Note: The Terms of Use STILL apply and will be enforced!

29th Jun 2002, 16:25
OK Komag, no harm done. Exactly the opposite.:) That information will be very useful in any case. The only questions are how to keep it alive for posterity and how to make the referencing of the information easier than using the "search" function. That will be resolved soon enough, well before any purges take place, I assume.:)

I think your proposed title is way to long, as you note. How about my first suggestion, above, or something similar?

Fan Missions - Playing and Creating Them

29th Jun 2002, 16:28
Oh, I should add that there is some discussion at the Crippled Burrick in Vanguard's post (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2117#post2117) that maybe the Dromed and the FM player threads should be separated. I encouraged them to come here and discuss it further.

29th Jun 2002, 16:42
As you suggested Peter, I've come to add my bit. :)

As I said on the other forum, I just think that it might be a bit confusing (and intimidating to some players) to have to post FM questions on the forum devoted to the technical parts of making them.

As there were concerns about how few people would probably visit the Legacy forum, as there is not as many people discovering the games at this point, I though it might be a viable option to make that forum into one that would cover the questions on the OMs as well as the FMs. Most of the people playing the FMs are reasonably knowledgeable about the OMs, as well, having played them themselves and it would insure that those questions would be seen and answered promptly, as well as giving us a forum that would primarily be devoted to FM questions and comments, like the TTLG one. It would also be the place to plug up coming FMs with links to screenshots, etc., ask for betatesters, voice actors, etc. It's just something to consider. :)

29th Jun 2002, 16:43
Well, what Vanguard was worried about has now happend, we are discussing the same issue in two separate threads.

29th Jun 2002, 17:02
Komag and Nightwalker,

I have sent you both an e-mail on this. I think we have reached a consensus. I like Komag's list, but I would like to add a Technical category as well because we have a lot of posts in that area as well, and they have no other home.


This will dissipate in time. Vanguard is complaining about a problem that will take care of itself if we are conscientious. As I said in another post, it has resolved itself nicely at TTLG. We have no reason to believe it will not do so here.

29th Jun 2002, 17:11
As KoMaG pointed out, he was creating the beginings of a database. Is it possible to single out forums for purging? Unlike the general banter forums, I see no reason why this forum can't remain intact.

29th Jun 2002, 18:54
I'll have to agree that I like the idea of OMs and FMs together in their own catagory and Dromed in it's own.

Also the addition of a Tech Help forum is a good idea. Hopefully that will where we can post not only for Thief specific tech help but also for general computing problems........ I have learned a lot over the years from Vanguard's, Salvage's, tBM's, ricknmel's, Peter's, and many others contributions of how to keep these danged puters running well and upgrading.

Vesper ;)

29th Jun 2002, 20:39
If we're voting, I'll cast my vote for Komag's list too. To me, it defeats the purpose of creating a forum where dromeders can post but then mingle it with people posting gameplay questions. Personally, I will probably never design an FM so usually I skip right over the dromed threads. But I do play FM's frequently & would like to be able to post & read about them without leafing through lots of technical dromed topics. So re-combining the FM & Thief Legacy forums into a forum dedicated to gameplay & a forum dedicated to dromed makes a lot of sense to me.

As for those who were saying that nobody would look at the Thief Legacy forum the way it is now, I disagree. The few times I've visited the forum so far, the first thing I've done is breeze through the Legacy forum to see if there are any new threads to read. This takes a few minutes & then I go on to the Crippled Burrick. So I think enough people will be there that newbie questions would get answered almost as quickly as they are now. But I still think the FM's should be included there.

29th Jun 2002, 20:55
Whether we decide to keep FM players and authors together (and forsake the Legacy forum of FM players) or separate them or regroup them or whatever, I would would suggest we make the forum titles SHORTER, not longer. I would also suggest that "Thief" be prefixed to each Thief-related forum; when subscribing to multiple forums, not all of which may be in the Thief series, it would be handy to have them sorted in the User CP page by their series name (so the "Thief" series of forums stick together in the "Subscribed Forums" list in my User CP). So this forum would get renamed to simply "Thief FM's - Play and Design". Since "FM" would get defined in the forum description, you don't need to also define it in the title. I would also remove "Dromed" since we don't yet know what the T3 level editor will be named (or if we're going to separate T1/T2 dromeders from T3 authors by having the T3 editors use the "Thief III" forum).

The navigation link list is already too long with "Eidos Forums > The Games > Thief Series > Dromed and Thief FM's (Fan Missions) - Designers Corner > (thread_topic)". With the topic line getting appended to the navigation link list, it can easily end up wrapping to 3 lines or more. And I'd rather have this forum grouped together in my subscribed forum list with the other Thief forums than mixed in with Deus Ex and other forums.

29th Jun 2002, 22:12
I've listened to both sides...and I still feel very strongly that DromEd discussions should not be interlaced into FM Gameplay discussions.

They're not even remotely related IMO. The Drommedders shouldn't have to wade through pages of FM gameplay questions to find what they're looking for...and on the same token, FM players could care less about what scripts are being designed and "how do I make my secret door purple".

If FM gameply discussions don't belong with OM discussions....then give FM's their own FM forum. Don't mix them in with DromEd.

This forum is not what they have at TTLG.
TTLG has an FM forum and a DromEd forum (although I think it was moved "off site"). But anyways....people keep relating this forum to what has been working so great over at TTLG...but it's not the same thing at all. There isn't any techie DromEd discussion going on over at the TTLG FM forum.

OK..I'm done. Whatever happens, I'll support 100%, but I had to get my opinion in....again. :)

[/2 cents]

30th Jun 2002, 07:57
I must say I have changed my mind on this and now think that in addition to the general thief forum there should be a 'classic game play' forum for OMs & FMs, a 'new game play' forum for Thief 3, and a DromED forum, plus perhaps a Thief 3 editor's forum later on.

30th Jun 2002, 23:47
I think a consensus is forming... ;-)

1st Jul 2002, 16:46
Well, I don't remember what it was like before but I do say this is much better to have a seperate forum for fms and dromed. They are an entire different catagory from the general thief world and should have their own discussion place

Grey Mouser
1st Jul 2002, 17:50
I am listening...will bring this up with the Powers That Be and make appropriate changes if given the OK.

1st Jul 2002, 18:23
I like the way it's done over at TTLG. The only thing I might do differently (not that "I" can do anything) would be to combine the T1, T2 OM's Forum.

I rarely check out the DromEd forum 'cause I don't DromEd. (I wish I could:( ) I think the mission designers deserve thier own space so they can talk to each other w/o having to wade through a bunch of FM questions and comments. Likewise, FM players can find what they need w/o having to sort through a bunch of threads that might as well be in Greek.

Either way though the new digs are a big improvement just as they are, in my opinion.


1st Jul 2002, 19:30
It's done! We have our separate Dromed forum here now! The top two threads (locked) I think now belong in the Thief Missions forum :)

1st Jul 2002, 20:37