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View Full Version : [REPOST] A New Thought on the Reaver



darien_specter
28th Jun 2002, 20:20
And this one, too... but that's it! :D

Orginally posted May 12th, 2002
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Okay, so here's a new theory out of my fertile brain...

I played through SR2 again, just finishing it, again observing that, after killing Turel, and trying to use the light and dark fonts in the cathedral, the Reaver blade won't take in the element. Raziel just hacks away at the font, making a fool of himself (if there were anyone to watch, that is. ;) )

Well now this provides a bit of a conundrum. Assuming for the moment that this is not just some little issue that CD decided not to address at this point (and I really wouldn't put that past them), we know the forges and fonts and doors and whatnot were made for the Reaver - presumably the physical blade, from the look of door locks and such, and from the fact of that big statue of Raziel in the fire forge (he is holding the sword, and after he forges the Reaver it is wreathed in fire). Yet the physical blade, when Raziel finally is able to wield it, cannot seem to absorb these elemental powers. They are, however, readily absorbed by the wraith blade.

Now, given that the minute the wraith blade reawakens the Reaver goes for Raziel, and given that Janos offers the blade to Raziel in the (supposed) safety of the Retreat, what if... that outcome was always the purpose of the smiths of the Reaver and the winged race? Consider this: Had Raziel and Janos not been disturbed by the Sarafan (agents of Moebius, himself an agent of the "dark powers"), then presumably the absorption of Raziel's soul would have happened in the Retreat; but Janos would have been there to pull the Reaver at the last moment, thus forging the Soul Reaver (as many of us have assumed happened when Kain pulled the sword) and making it ready for Raziel's use, upon his recovery.

Moebius' forseeing these events, the Sarafan were ready to follow Raziel in, Raziel pursues them, gets the Reaver, it consumes him utterly, and he dies, thus apparently assuring Moebius' designs. Until... Raziel spares Kain, who thereby saves Raziel's life in Janos' place... and, perhaps, forging the Soul Reaver AND permitting Raziel to, possibly, be healed by the Heart of Darkness.

We shall see, eventually...

Jedilvr
28th Jun 2002, 21:12
It's a nice theory, but what purpose would the Vamps. have for a Reaver of Souls? From what I saw in SR2 Raz. isn't suppose to look like, or maybe even be, what he was when Janos saw him.

darien_specter
28th Jun 2002, 23:43
I grant you that Raziel's appearance is something of a shocker... As for why, I really have no idea. I was just trying to come to some explanation for those elements I noticed, the seeming evidence that the material Reaver was in some way connected to all that Raziel found and used with the wraith blade. Why is one of those things that I expect we'll learn in SR3...

Jedilvr
29th Jun 2002, 04:56
Maybe it was meant to be a wraith blade all along, that way only Raz. could use it. Because we all know that pretty much EVERYBODY had it in it's physical form. Sorry if my last post sounded negative, I just noticed that it could be taken that way.

darien_specter
29th Jun 2002, 06:49
Oh, no, iit's a fine question - I never really gave much thought to motive before, and it happens that, after brief thought, I couldn't come up with a good one... This is, after all, what debate is all about. :D

darien_specter
30th Jun 2002, 20:46
As I mentioned in my new thread, I found more evidence to support this theory.

In the Light forge, there is a mural depicting the ancients bringing the Reaver to what is clearly visible as the Light altar, and the Reaver - the sword, not the wraith blade - being imbued with Light. This lends further credence to the idea that the Reaver was forged (or perhaps modified some time after the war with the Hylden) with the intent that it should consume part of Raziel's soul, and thus be forged anew as the Soul Reaver as I descibed above...

darien_specter
2nd Jul 2002, 08:21
Jedilvr, I think I have a better answer for your question...

It has to do with all of the Elemental forges, obviously prepared for Raziel and the Reaver. As I pointed out when I first wrote this theory, the simple, soulless Reaver is incapable of taking in the elemental energy. The Wraith blade, ie Raziel's soul, however, is. And I think that the Soul Reaver will be as well, when the wraith blade and the Reaver are conjoined, ie when Raziel is wielding it (that would be why it's just a nifty sword for anyone else, including Kain.)

Given that the shrine beneath the Pillars has all the elemental Reaver symbols arranged on the floor in what looks to me like a hierarchical structure, I would say that the Reaver is indeed the key to the Pillars, but in more than just the blade. I would say that the presence of the elemental symbols at the Pillars, in a place that only Raziel seems to have access to, implies that the elemental powers are somehow also wrapped up in Raziel's purpose and the purpose of the Reaver. After all, it seems like a hell of a lot of trouble to go to just to have some fancy door locks... And this is why they need the Soul Reaver - not as a soul-devouring weapon; I think that this is merely a by-product of the fact that Raziel's soul inhabits the blade. (Why exactly Raziel is a devourer of souls, I have long wondered...) They need it as a vessel of sorts, to carry the elements to the Pillars to secure the Binding. And only the Soul Reaver can accomplish this task...

Power reaver
2nd Jul 2002, 13:53
Nice theory .

Anyway I figured that at least a portion of Razes soul has to be extracted out of him by the ancients . The purpose would be in making all those doors and save points etc . If your going to make anything that has to be activated by something , then you have to have that something to make it . They cant make the doors that open due to Razes souls imprint without Razes soul cause all the doors have to recognise Razes soul .

Ender
2nd Jul 2002, 21:38
ok, i kinda went into this in another thread...but reading through all these posts got more ideas flowing

i've always been stuck on what exactly Janos meant when he said "the binding must be secure"...i've got two interpretaions of this.

1. Raz's soul must be bound to the reaver in order to power it and create the uber weapon of Nosgoth. Idealy, Janos would be the one to create the weapon there the retreat, i'd like to think without totally destroying Raz.

2. the bindings on the pillars must be secured. I really like the idea that each pillar has a unique lock, the "keys" being the various elemental powers represented by each. Similar to what we had to go through in blood omen, purifying each one individually. The soul reaver is needed both to access the lock and transport the elemental powers to each pillar.

basically i think i just summed up whats been said in this thread, and seems to make sense

Vampmaster
27th Nov 2002, 13:53
Here's a bizzare analogy, but it might work:

Maybe he doesn't have to get stuck in the Reaver. The Blood Reaver could be like a mould (or a componant) for him to use to make a kind of straw out of other souls though which he can suck them through. It would also still have it's key function and all it's intended powers.

Darakari
27th Nov 2002, 23:43
Now that I really think about it, it all starts to make more sense now.

The true purpose of the Blood Reaver was NEVER to absorb souls. The true purpose that the Ancients created the Reaver for was to serve as a MOLD in order to create a blueprint of Raziel's soul. That way Raziel is the ONLY one who can access or undo the binding of the Hylden into the other dimension.

The binding in its current form is incomplete. Hylden are still able to escape if they can figure out the right counter-spell to release themselves. The Sarafan Hylden Lord was able to successfully escape, as well as bring many others with him.\

ANALOGY: Right now the binding has a combination lock on it. Anyone who can successfully dial the correct combination will be able to free themselves. What they now need to create is a "key-lock with one and ONLY ONE key".

The Ancients need a blueprint of Raziel's soul so that they can use the mold to create "locks" for any devices needed for the binding. Once the binding is complete, Raziel will be the ONLY creature who can open or close the gate. He has and IS the ONLY KEY to the binding. Without Raziel opening the gate for them, no one will be able to enter or exit the gate.

The fact that it can absorb Raziel's soul is only a side effect of the molding process. Janos Auldron intended to use the Blood Reaver in order to create a blueprint of Raziel's soul, and then remove the reaver before it could completely absorb him.

Moebius planned to stop this from happening by sneaking the Sarafan Lieutenants in Janos' retreat behind Raziel. He wanted them to either stop Janos from creating a mold in the first place, or keep Janos busy (or even kill him) so that Janos would not be around in order to pull the blade from Raziel's chest.

They planned on making sure that Raziel would be completely absorbed by the blade so that he would never be able to discover or achieve his true destiny of becoming the binding key. But Raziel spared Kain's life, and luckily Kain has discovered what Raziel's true destiny is, so Kain filled in and completed the job that Janos was supposed to do.

The thing is that Kain does not want to TELL Raziel what his destiny is. Raziel starts off so hard-headed that he will probably either ignore Kain's advice or do the totally opposite thing. Kain is a very strategic chess player. He is saying and doing the corect things in order to guide Raziel toward his destiny. He knows that he can only get Raziel to do the right thing if Raziel believes that he has discovered the truth on his on and that he has made the decision of his own free will. Raziel hates being pushed into making a decision. Raziel wants to learn things for himself, and Raziel want to make his own choices. Raziel hates being manipulated or ordered to do something by anyone.

Raziel's true destiny is NOT to be consumed by the Reaver.
Raziel's true destiny IS to become the only key for a new binding.

Azrael
27th Nov 2002, 23:50
I see you got it very well =) . And i like your analogy.

warpsavant
28th Nov 2002, 03:19
Thats very intersting, especially since the Sarafan Lord shoots projectiles from the Reaver like it was the wraith blade.

Vampmaster
29th Nov 2002, 17:48
Right! He's not meant to become the wraith blade. He's supposed to create it.

Vampmaster
29th Nov 2002, 23:39
I now know why and how it tried to trap him. The wraith blade can not devour it's own soul as this would prevent itself from being created. But this does not matter if it doesn't have to be a soul. (It might be at the moment but is doesn't have to be.) When Raziel uses a save point or a "lamp post" (can't think what else to call them right now) he leaves an imprint of his soul and is drawn there when he gets too weak. Now if he is drawn to the last place that he left an imprint of his soul and that just happened to be inside of the Blood Reaver, then that is where he is drawn just as the wraith blade is about to give up for risk of negating it's own existance. Thus instead of creating the wraith blade from this imprint in the mold that is the Blood Reaver, he gets completely trapped inside it.


Ahhh!!! That also explains why he's invincable with it if he's walking around with his own mobile check point. Maybe it's part way between a save point and check point since you can't actually save with it but it keeps you in the material realm.

CyberFish
19th Jan 2003, 21:20
By the stars... I think you've got it. Absolute genius.

I still suspect there's something missing from this explanation, though. Why did the Sarafan knights flee from Janos's retreat back to the stronghold when they could have simply waited for Raziel to get out of the Fire Forge, let him recover the Reaver, and then allowed it to consume his soul? Since they seemingly fled in abject terror, they're either multi-talented warrior actors; or Moebius didn't let them in on the whole plan. Typical Moebius. He'd hoped they would arrive halfway through Raziel's absorption into the Reaver, kill Janos, and leave Raz to die. However, they got there ahead of schedule, Janos teleports Raziel to safety, and by the time Raz gets out of the fire forge, Janos is dying and the Sarafan run back to the fortress with the Reaver. The death of the Reaver guardian causes the dimensional barrier constructed by the Pillars to weaken for a short while, thus allowing several demons to cross the barrier and intercept Raziel. This stops him from catching up with the Sarafan before Moebius has time to set his trap.

I suspect Mortanius and Moebius both survived because they were instrumental in the plans of whatever dark Adversary Kain referred to. Moebius was needed to construct the devious machinations that would ignite the genocidal Vampire Purges, Mortanius was needed to serve as a vessle for Hash'ak'gik and bring about the demise of the Circle. Both were expendable.


Hmm. Is the blood-drinking power of the Reaver intentional, or was it merely a beneficial side-effect of forging the weapon to absorb Raziel's soul? The blood of the Ancients and the blood of the Hylden seem to have special properties.

Also, this would explain why it appears that the chamber below the pillars depicts Janos holding the Blood Reaver and Raziel holidng the Soul Reaver. If Janos's plans had come to fruition, Raziel would have been the one to wield the Soul Reaver. Where did he get that helmet, though?

Vampmaster
20th Jan 2003, 11:18
Moebius would have ordered the Sarafan to bring the heart of darkness back to the stronghold to make sure that Raziel didn't get it back to Janos before he was trapped in the Reaver. Also if Raziel became trapped in the Reaver before he killed the Sarafan, Kain might not have chosen them as his lieutenants and Raziel wouldn't have had the abilities he needed to get to that point. Maybe he needed Raziel to keep the Sarafan out of the way while Vorador took care of the circle.

darien_specter
14th May 2003, 07:01
Whoa... That is some brilliant deductive reasoning from Vampmaster and Darakari! That analogy works very well to me...

And yes, I know this is all very old, but I've been gone for a long time, and I missed it, and when someone makes such a great reply to one of my threads, I want to point it out. It seems more clear that way than the way I first explained it, anyway... :D

Vampmaster
14th May 2003, 09:51
Defiance spoiler:

Kain's plan at the end of SR2 didn't work. In Defiance Kain has kept hold of the Blood Reaver after this event. It's possible my theory could still be true if Raziel pulled the newly created WB out of the BR or that Kains plan could work next time he tries it, but it seems more likely that he'll get stuck in the Reaver this time.