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darien_specter
28th Jun 2002, 19:56
Call me vain... but I'm copying this one over, because it got good comments. That way it can serve as a reference. And yes, I will update it to some extent when I finally get to play BO2.

If anyone wants to see the two major theories I posted there, just let me know!

Originally posted January 20th, 2002; reposted and edited May 3rd, 2002
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The ancient past:
- The winged race forges the Blood Reaver, imbuing it with vampiric energy. It is given into the keeping of Janos Audron, to be held until (apparently) Raziel comes to claim it.

ca. 500 years before the collapse of the Pillars:
- Raziel appears in the time of the Sarafan Vampire Purge. He has come from some fifty years after the Pillars Collapse.
- As a result of Raziel blazing a path through Janos Audron's Retreat, the high priests of the Sarafan, led by the human Raziel, attack the retreat. They kill Janos and steal the Reaver.
-Raziel pursues them back to the Sarafan Cathedral, where he finds the stolen Reaver and with it exterminates the entire Sarafan priesthood save Malek (who will be damned to an eternity of existing as his soul fused to his armor, for failing to protect the Circle from Vorador's simultaneous attack. Vorador kills six of the Guardians, leaving only Moebius, Malek, and Mortanius alive.) After killing human Raziel, the Reaver turns on him and attempts to entrap his soul. Though Kain's interference throws a huge wrench into the works and our knowledge of hte history, this is when the Reaver would have become the Soul Reaver. Again, without Kain's interference, presumably Moebius recovers the sword and hides the truth of what has happened there. (Kain's act of pulling the sword free has probably changed this point somewhat.)

ca. 50 years before the collapse of the Pillars:
- Kain appears; he has come from the time of the collapse, escaping the failing battle against the Nemesis. He discovers Moebius giving the Soul Reaver and a time-streaming device to the young William the Just; bearing the Soul Reaver himself, he fights and kills William the Just. The paradox of the Soul Reaver existing twice causes William's blade to be broken in two; Kain returns to his own time with his blade, using William's time-streamign device. **These are not copies or clones, but the actual physical Soul Reaver existing in the flow of history, Kain taking his Reaver back in time with him.

ca. 30 years before the collapse of the Pillars:
- Raziel appears in the time of Moebius' Vampire Purge. He has come from the far future of Nosgoth, having pursued Kain through the Chronoplast. He discovers the broken Soul Reaver on William's tomb; the existence of the Reaver and himself causes a paradox. (There are, I think, three instances of Raziel present here, but that clutters the issue.) The wraith entity within the blade (Raziel, as we now know) draws on Raziel's soul to heal itself, recreating the one whole blade from the two pieces. The character of Raziel's wraith Reaver is changed in the process. Raziel will later narrowly avert destroying Kain with this weapon conjoined with his own wraith Reaver, thus altering the time stream in some way not yet revealed. Raziel leaves the physical Soul Reaver behind in the tomb,as does, presumably, Kain. Raziel also confronts Kain at the Pillars, and is there to witness the moment of their corruption, caused by Nupraptor's discovery of the murdered Ariel; he goes mad, and spreads this madness to the entire Circle - including, in Coorhagen, the newly-born Kain - and the Pillars are corrupted. Moebius tricks Raziel into traveling into the near future.

At the collapse of the Pillars:
- The events of Blood Omen and the collapse of the Pillars. Among those events, Kain discovers the Soul Reaver in the Avernus Cathedral, and claims it for his own weapon. When the battle of King Ottmar's army against the Nemesis fails, Kain escapes into the past with the aid of a time-streaming device given him by Moebius; he takes the Reaver with him. He returns to witness the end of Moebius' purge in the execution of the vampire Vorador. Kain refuses the sacrifice; the Pillars collapse, and Kain sets about to take control of Nosgoth, with the Soul Reaver as his weapon.

ca. 100 years after the collapse of the Pillars:
- Raziel appears, having been tricked by Moebius into coming to this time instead of the past he sought. He eventually opens the abandoned time-streaming chamber in the swamp, and travels back to the time of the Sarafan crusade.

ca. 500 years after the collapse of the Pillars:
- Kain creates Raziel and the rest of the Sarafan high priesthood as his vampire lieutenants. They set about building a vampiric empire in Nosgoth.

ca. 1500 years after the collapse of the Pillars:
- Kain executes vampire Raziel by casting him into the Abyss.

ca. 3000(?) years after the collapse of the Pillars:
- The events of Soul Reaver. Among those events, Kain tries to strike Raziel down with the Soul Reaver; the paradox - that the Raziel-entity within the blade cannot devour itself, Raziel - causes the sword to shatter. Raziel's twinned soul - now manifest as a wraith Soul Reaver blade - binds itself to Raziel's arm, becoming his symbiotic weapon. After killing his now grossly deformed brothers (save Turel who "as a vampire, escaped my vengeance" - but not the vengenace of the release deadline), Raziel again confronts Kain, and follows him through the Chronoplast into the far past, the time of Moebius' Vampire Purge.

KainSyndrome101
28th Jun 2002, 23:31
Man, try anything to play or buy BO2. It answers a lot of questions that you were asking yourself after SR2.

darien_specter
28th Jun 2002, 23:34
I know! And I've had to pass up several promising eBay auctions, because I haven't got a job yet and don't want to spend the precious money on it. Job-hunting is soooo frustrating, grrrrr...:mad:

soon, though, I shall have it. Ahhh, yes... preeeeciossssssssssssssss..... :p

Mallinger
29th Jun 2002, 06:49
Ah yes, job hunting. I hate job hunting almost as much as my current job. I wish my job was playing video games or something like that. I could play things like SR2 all day long, and get payed for it. But it is only a dream. :cool:

darien_specter
29th Jun 2002, 06:56
There are people who get paid to do that - Chris@Crystal, for one... I just wish i knew how one gets that job, that would be so sweet...

JAN-16
6th Jun 2003, 18:44
Darien Specter,
What about the forging of the reaver , said to be possesed by a demon in SR1 ? Would't Raz have to been born & died in order to trap his soul in the reaver when it was created? I have tried to follow the time line but it's like back to the future.
confused
JAN-16

someguysteve
7th Jun 2003, 03:44
i think that the first time these events happened, if there is such a thing that the blood reaver sucked a sufficient amount of Raziel's blood to change it so that it sucks souls (but at this point still empty) it then absorbs Raziels soul which now devours souls that the blade maybe would have stored.

or if there never was a first time, that there is no first time, just a continous circle of events then the duol wraith blades flowed into the blood reaver. these two pull Raziel's soul into the blade and maybe over time they fuse or something so that by SR1 there is only one entity in the blade.

darien_specter
8th Jun 2003, 02:40
Actually, it's not like Back to the Future. A very good question! I will try to explain as best as I can.

When discussing time travel, there are generally two basic versions of its ramifications on history. The first is what we see in, for example, Star Trek (though loosely) and Back to the Future. In this concept, history is fluid; and if you go back in time, your actions in the past will distort the timeline, thus changing the present. This is what happened when George McFly punched out Biff; he became a much stronger individual (personality-wise), because Marty intervened to change him. (Or, negatively, when old Biff took the sports book back to 1955 and gave it to young Biff, thus permitting 1985 to be horribly altered.) (Don't want to ruin that excellent trilogy for anyone who's not seen it! :D)

The other concept we see in LoK, as well as, for example, Anne McCaffrey's Pern novels or Futurama. In this version, history is basically fixed; that is, if you go back in time, your actions in the past always happened, and are in fact the reason why history is the way it is. Thus, be going back in time and committing some action, the present is not changed; in fact, the present depended on that action for history to turn out as recorded. This is what we have in Soul Reaver 2. History assumes that Raziel follows Kain back into time, and that he would do all of the things that he wound up doing in SR2 (except for sparing Kain's life). Raziel's travels through time, therefore, do not change events, but he is the cause of them, such as Janos Audron's death and the forging of the Soul Reaver.

It is also important, in this view of time travel, to distinguish between the world's history and personal history. (There's an even more confusing thread that I posted that explores this at length elsewhere.) Basically, even though the forging of the Soul Reaver happened ages before Raziel awoke in the Elder's chamber, in his life's history it happens afterward. This is why there had to be the two 'reshufflings' of history in SR2; in those places where a paradox allows there to be a change, someone who should have died does not; and because their life continues, the actions that they will take must become part of history. So as things stand now, as of the end of SR2, an observer in the far future would know how everything is going to turn out (assuming no more changes of the sort we saw in SR2); but Raziel does not, because he has not lived those experiences yet.

Hope that helps! :) If not, just post again and I'll try to do a better job...

Blue Winged Fellow
8th Jun 2003, 15:03
That was a good explanation for me.

I have an idea that has been maturing for some time in my mind, regarding the Elder God.
It seemed to me that when Raziel travelled forward in time (SR2) he went far beyond his "resurrection" in the lake of the dead, and then, the Giant Squid, wasn't that giant. So I though, that the Elder was somehow not following the same "time line" as the rest of the cast. As if somehow, his time line was reversed, getting younger as everyoneelse was getting older.

Now I read your post saying that Raz appeared only 100 years in the future after the corruption of the pillars. I'm not so sure about it. If it's exactly true, then my mind is playing a lot of tricks on me.

Must refine this idea as well...

Azazel
8th Jun 2003, 15:06
Originally posted by Blue Winged Fellow

Now I read your post saying that Raz appeared only 100 years in the future after the corruption of the pillars. I'm not so sure about it. If it's exactly true, then my mind is playing a lot of tricks on me.


It's true.

Blue Winged Fellow
8th Jun 2003, 15:13
Ok.

Then when was BO2 taking place? Somehow it looks to me that there's a conflict there

Azazel
8th Jun 2003, 15:15
The cinematic took place 200 years after the collapse of the Pillars.
And the game itself 400 years the collapse of the Pillars.

Blue Winged Fellow
8th Jun 2003, 15:21
Then why is there SO MUCH difference in the Nosgoth in BO2 and the Nosgoth that Raziel travels to?

I believe Raziel says he was pushed hundreds of years to the future by Moebius, not A hundred years. It makes more sense to me, since the world looks SO BAD, it looks as if he had been in a time where there was nothing left alive... but as I said, I must refresh my memory. Must play the game again.

Azazel
8th Jun 2003, 15:27
He says over a century.

quote: originally said by Raziel:

Moebius had propelled me over a century into his ghastly future.

Later

quote: originally said by Raziel:

I discerned the spirit of Ariel - bound here now for more than a century.

I agree, it could mean any time longer than a century when taken literally, but most of the time people mean ca. 100 years.

Blue Winged Fellow
8th Jun 2003, 15:34
Ok, I concede. (Thanks for saving me the time of playing the game again, altough I would have enjoyed playing it anyway!)

Still, my question remains. Why is there so much difference between the 2 Nosgoths?

Azazel
8th Jun 2003, 15:41
I don't really know, although a lot can change in 300 years (you don't see much of Nosgoth in the cinematic).

darien_specter
16th Jun 2003, 00:15
The difference comes down to nothing more than aesthetics, I'm afraid. BO2 was created by a completely different production team, with a completely different designer than either SR or SR2. (This has always been my chief complaint about the game.) There's really nothing mystical or deep about it; they just took their own approach to the game that doesn't really jive with what Amy Henning's team created. One aspect of this is the general environment; from all of the previous games, the future we see in SR2 seems to be pretty accurate, following the collapse of the Pillars. I tend to rely on BO, SR and SR2 for information more than BO2 because of the sheer number of things that don't jive... but that's a topic for another forum. Anyway, that's why it's so different...

Lucent
16th Jun 2003, 06:05
The 'future' Kain comes from in SR2 no longer exists.

Due to his alteration of the timeline at the end of SR2, and the catastrophic events of BO2, the Kain we know may never have attained the same state of power that we see. It is entirely possible now, for there to be -another- Kain waiting for us at the 'future' should he and Raziel return.

Kain should never have encountered the Seraphan Lord, the alternate timeline (due to Janos' revival) doomed the future Raziel and Kain hailed from.

Thus, why BO2 looks so different from SR2 in a 'sensible' way. The Future of SR2 never comes, so the future we find may be a technological nightmare of the Hylden's craft rules by Kain.

darien_specter
16th Jun 2003, 23:14
Except that none of Raziel's memories change. Thus, everything that we've experienced playing as him may be assumed to have still occurred, including SR, where we first really encounter the Kain of the far future, and when Raziel follows this same person back in time. I would assume that most of what changed is localized in the time period between 100 and, oh, ca. 500 years after the fall of the Pillars.

In fact, to speculate wildly for a minute, I think I remember seeing somewhere that the ending of SR2 was affected by what had been created by the BO2 team, and was an attempt to harmonize it somewhat... I almost wonder if we will see a history alteration in LoK-D that will replace what happened in BO2, as a sort of way to contain it... :p

PhoenixReaver
22nd Jun 2003, 22:37
The reason why Nosgoth in Blood Omen 2 is so different from the Nosgoth we see in the other games is because Blood Omen 2 takes place on the altered timeline, brought about due to the events at the end of SR2. (God, I sound like a broken record. My first posts to the forum, and three times I say this. I hope I'm right, or I'm making quite the fool of myself.)

When Kain, and to a lesser extent Raziel, caused the extreme paradox in the end of SR2, they rewrote history, altering Nosgoth from the one we've seen in SR1/2 and BO1 to the one we see in BO2.

We never really know if Raziel's memories change. He's in the midst of "dying", his soul is waving back and forth from him to the reaver.. He doesn't even hear what Kain says before he falls into the Spectral Realm again. Then the game ends.

darien_specter
24th Jun 2003, 20:47
Concerning Raziel, it is I think safe to assume that nothing he has experienced has changed. Just because he was weak at that point doesn't mean that he would miss something like his whole existence altering! I find it hard to believe that the team at CD would just throw out three games' worth of history and experience on a gimmick; and I have my own thoughts (see immediately above) on a possible reason for the 'altered timeline' argument...

Regarding the Nosgoth of BO2... yes, Amy Henning has confirmed that BO2 takes place in the altered timeline. As I said above, I'm beginning to think that this is partly to control the aesthetic inaccuracies that put BO2 out of harmony with the rest of the series. The fact remains that it was produced by a different creative team at CD that, for good or for bad, put their own interpretive spin on EVERYTHING that they created; this is simply the nature of two different groups working on something like this. They are going to take it in a different direction. Also note on blincon's excellent website http://www.thelostworlds.net the similarities to some cancelled games; this is the influence of a different lead artist from either SR or SR2. BO2 has a completely different team, notably: a different lead/concept artist; a different scriptwriter; and a different director. (Check out the credits in the manuals if you don't believe me!) Yes, there are ways to explain away the difference; but this is the real reason why they are different, and there's no getting away from it.

Fixed an error in the web address. Thanks Azazel.

Blue Winged Fellow
24th Jun 2003, 23:53
Ok, here's one for the most experienced people around. I was going very carefully over the dialogs in SR2. Something doesn't seem to fit, although I'm pretty sure everyone has an answer for this:
When Raziel first finds Vorador at the exit of the Dark Forge, we're about 30 Years before the events of BO. Yet, Vorador tell to himself as he talks to Raziel - "Vampires meddling in the affairs of humans... Look where it has brough us" - or something along those lines.

How can he know that Kain is responsible for the Vampire purge of Nosgoth, even against his counsel? Which by the way, he hasn't given yet. He certainly shouldn't know about Kain's existance (since he's just being born) and I don't imagine Kain using the time streaming device to go back to Vorador's time to have a nice chat with him and tell him that he's going to die with his head on a silver dish because he didn't follow his advice, sometime in the next 30 years.

Could this be just an error?? :confused:
Perharps there's more history hidden behind this?

Umah Bloodomen
25th Jun 2003, 00:31
To be honest with you, I believe it might have something to do with Kain returing fifty years in the past, (which is roughly 20 years prior to the Raz/Vorador meeting) after assisting King Ottmar and his battle against the Nemesis, (aka William The Just). I would assume that (especially seeing how Moebius is involved), that word-of-mouth spread about Kain, and reached Vorador.

From playing Blood Omen (which I am not sure if you have or have not at this point), you learn that Kain's "meddling" with that aspect of history, led to the uprising of Moebius' cutthroat citizen army, and reignited the vampire purges (which ultimately led to the death of Vorador himself).

Blue Winged Fellow
25th Jun 2003, 00:41
Yes I was recently playing BO, and I know the story from reading it in too many places.

You're probably right (until proven wrong by some "official" info)

Still, his lines seem too well directed, like if he knew a lot more than what could probably go around in "vox populi" at the time of the vampire purges.

One thing is also in my mind. Every time a paradox alters the time line, can Raziel and Kain go back to the "original" time line sort to speak?

Anubis_Orr
25th Jun 2003, 00:46
Well that moment was forever memorialized and became the focus upon which Moebius formed his militia. That story would have been told over and over to galvanize the forces and encourage them to forever wipe the vampire scourge from Nosgoth.

As for the timeline.... there's no way to be certain for the moment.

Umah Bloodomen
25th Jun 2003, 00:51
Originally posted by Anubis_Orr
Well that moment was forever memorialized and became the focus upon which Moebius formed his militia. That story would have been told over and over to galvanize the forces and encourage them to forever wipe the vampire scourge from Nosgoth.

With Vorador being directly exposed to the slaughtering of his fellow vampires, of course his animosity towards the one who initiated it, would be quite apparent, regardless if he knew him personally or not. There's other speculation circulating around here to suggest that Vorador may have received *inside information* however, that is reserved for another time and place.

The explanation I've provided seems to be the most logical, IMO.

Blue Winged Fellow
25th Jun 2003, 00:53
Yes, but what I mean is that even if Moebious wanted to inmortalize the moment, Vorador wouldn't know that Kain traveled back in time to "Destroy the Nemesis" and save Ottmar forces (hence "meddling in the affairs of humans"). I don't think it would look good on Moebius CV to admit publicly that William The Just would become The Nemesis at some point in the future. Since that part of the history should remain well hidden, it wouldn't find its way to Vorador's ears.

So, to fullfil Moebius purposes, for the crowd just to know that William the Just was killed by a Vampire would have been more than enough. No need to mention Kain anywhere.

Blue Winged Fellow
25th Jun 2003, 00:59
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
There's other speculation circulating around here to suggest that Vorador may have received *inside information* however, that is reserved for another time and place.




Umah, I would like to read some of that "speculation". Can you point me in the right direction?

I really enjoy reading the forum's theories. I find most of them quite interesting.

Umah Bloodomen
25th Jun 2003, 01:22
Originally posted by Blue Winged Fellow

Yes, but what I mean is that even if Moebious wanted to inmortalize the moment, Vorador wouldn't know that Kain traveled back in time to "Destroy the Nemesis" and save Ottmar forces (hence "meddling in the affairs of humans").

Vorador doesn't have to know the intricate details of why Kain chose to kill William. Vorador would only be concerned with the fact that event sparked the anti-Vampire campaign, putting him (and his species) at risk. I think I'd want to go out and discover why the humans decided to wage war on me, wouldn't you? William was a no-win situation. If he were allowed to become the Nemesis, the vampires and Ottmar's kingdom would still suffer. Vorador would be meddling himself eventually.


Originally posted by Blue Winged Fellow
I don't think it would look good on Moebius CV to admit publicly that William The Just would become The Nemesis at some point in the future. Since that part of the history should remain well hidden, it wouldn't find its way to Vorador's ears.

Admit it? He was orchestrating it, and William and his subjects were allowing it to go forth as planned. Other than these groups of individuals, Nosgoth did not see it coming until it was there and biting them in the butt. Moebius' twist on the matter was the fact he orchestrated Kain to set the events (which made their way to Vorador's ears) in motion. I assume this occurred because Kain was out for Moebius' head and Moebius was not going out without a fight. (**insert playing the victim here**). Why take the blame, when you can pawn it off on someone else?


Originally posted by Blue Winged Fellow

So, to fullfil Moebius purposes, for the crowd just to know that William the Just was killed by a Vampire would have been more than enough. No need to mention Kain anywhere.



Funny, because Kain is not mentioned by name anywhere during Vorador's meeting with Raziel.
Dialogue courtesy of Ardeth Silvereni. (http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/sr2script/script8.html) :)

EDIT: Here are those links you may find of interest, BWF.

Vorador. Something fishy going on with this one. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4168&highlight=Vorador+traitor)

Transplanted from another forum. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13159&highlight=Vorador+traitor) (This one was written after the first).

Azazel
25th Jun 2003, 11:06
Originally posted by darien_specter
http://www.thellostworlds.net
There is an L too many.

babifrence
24th Nov 2003, 09:54
Hiya Peeps,

One thing people have COMPLETELY disregarded is that the main reason Nosgoth looks soo different in BO2 is because the area where the game is set is focused on Meridian, not Dark Eden, the Pillars, Willendorf, Avernus, Nupraptors Retreat, Maleks Bastion, Elzevir the Dollmaker, Land of the Nemesis, Voradors Mansion or the Oracle of Nosgoth !!! SR1 & 2 look different because they take place waaaay after BO2. SR1 takes place 1000yrs after BO2 and SR2 takes place before BO1 - so I hoped thats helped.

Remember we perceive Nosgoth to be a country not a place. Meridian is a place in Nosgoth just the way London is a city in England. Whats not to get Blue Winged Fellow ?

Lucent is right. Given that the SR2 has happened we know and understand Defiance is to come. However, what if Kain just watched Raziel slip into the Reaver and not do anything ? These are the results of BO2. Technically the games should be played BO1, SR1, SR2, BO2, DEFIANCE - order of events. But chronologically it would be different. We wont know the order the entire series goes in chronologically until it has completlely ended. In my opinion I think it would be this: -

SR2, DEFIANCE, BO1, BO2, SR1.

Why does everybody keep using annoying acronyms that I dont understand. What the hell is ca ? California, corrupt after, completely anihiliated ?


PEACE OUT !!!


PS darien_specter you dates are a little offkey mate. Think about all the games and then you'll realise some of them are inaccurate.

Saiyen74
27th Nov 2003, 17:05
What I don't get is in the end of SoulReaver2, while wraith Raziel and Sarafan Raziel are fighting are there 3 versions of his soul present ( wraith, wraith blade, and Sarafan)? If so then what happens to Sarafan Raziel soul when he is killed? Better yet what happens to the wraith blades soul after wraith Raziel is consumed in the blade creating the SoulReaver?
:confused:

Mrxknown
27th Nov 2003, 18:21
Wraith Raziel and the wraith blade of explicatly bound to each other (basically the blade is now apart of his body/being).

The Sarafan's soul had no part in the paradox occuring as we see in Defiance the blade had to strike Raziel for it to happen.

Simply put the Sarafan's soul went to the Underworld/Heaven/Hell/ElderGod's belly and waited until Kain made Vamp Raziel.

Saiyen74
27th Nov 2003, 20:26
Thanx Mrxknown. But what bothers me is how and why did this sick cycle start? There had to be a original time line. A timeline with no paradox. Perhaps a timeline with only a BloodReaver? Maybe Raziel is the Hylden champion and the BloodReaver is suppose to consume him. Of course this would only happen in the first timeline.

DestinyOfKain
30th Nov 2003, 03:56
What makes you think that in the original timeline that either Janos killed any of the serafans or even if Vorador killed them, and by Kain spending all that time in the Chronoplast, he discovers a way to create a paradox, a way to make the coin land on its edge.

By putting an individual into such a vicious lifecycle, is Kain just trying to make time itself weakened, to find a way to break free from fate and restore Nosgoth as it originally was, balanced and full of vampires.