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View Full Version : ABILITIES Bulwark is over-buffed



ParadoxicalOmen
18th Oct 2015, 20:48
Before patch Bulwark, was "counter-able"...you used to be able to pounce the vanguard, or even abduct him (if you had enough velocity to break the repelling wind).

But now after patch, you can no longer do these "counters" AND, not satisfied with this buff alone, Bulwark also adds a knockdown to any pounce attempts and any sentinels flying nearby.
I honestly think this is just making the ability over-powered (and i find it really deceptive of these changes not being registered in the "Game Updates" section...all it say is that Bulwark has been nerfed vertically...)

One of the things i really like and admire about Nosgoth is that every ability is "counter-able"...you can name any ability, that there is more than 1 way to counter it...so this is really a game breaker in my opinion.

If someone disagrees, please enlighten me...i honestly think it needs a nerf

GenocidePete
18th Oct 2015, 21:15
Choking Haze? Wing Flap? Shockwave? Dominate Mind?

Nosmer
18th Oct 2015, 21:28
Choking Haze? Wing Flap? Shockwave? Dominate Mind?
Vanguard can simply tap bulwark (hold it for 1 second) to knock a sentinel on the ground. He gets only 2 seconds CD, and sentinel ends up stunlocked to death. This is no way even near balanced.

TheDreamcrusher
18th Oct 2015, 21:47
I feel like the tyrant should be able to break through Bulwark with a direct perpendicular Charge or a Jump Attack. A glancing angle would be OK to stop Charge but stopping Jump Attack flight is a bit much, although Jump Attack needs some buffing anyway.

PencileyePirate
19th Oct 2015, 03:05
It needs a nerf. The warbow-like knockdown is ridiculous and shouldn't exist, and Tyrant charges should penetrate it.

Vlad_Tech
19th Oct 2015, 03:55
So with the title setting the theme... ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

So now vanguards can stop ANY ATTACK by taping bulwark, then they have a 50% damage reduction so the only skill that can possibly stop them is mind control. There is no way to punish, there is no defense against it, there is no world in which this skill is not objectively over powered. So now I'm not going to play the game until it's fixed, because this is ridiculous.

Suggestion:
No knock back, or knock down. Increase it's damage and retain the 50% reduction. Reduce vampire speed in the area by 50%, and attack speed by 20.

And seriously, a skill that stops all vampire attacks in the area, please remove or nerf this moronic ability.

P.S.
Expletives removed for your reading pleasure.. or displeasure, I honestly don't care which.

akr0nym
19th Oct 2015, 08:05
I disagree with the last two posts. Vanguard should be able to stop the charge / marathon of tyrant. That's what he is for. He is anti tyrant.

I agree with everything else regarding the effect ofbulwark to the other classes.

There is no point playing sentinel anymore if you have a good vanguard in the opposite team.


Vanguard can simply tap bulwark (hold it for 1 second) to knock a sentinel on the ground.
Don't forget he will use shield charge right after it and knock you down again. You are a 100% dead if that happens.
All from a class that is not even supposed to be able to hit sentinel hard. I am cool with a shield charge that drops sentis down (if you use it correctly and it does require some skill / or poor "slow" attacking from the sentinel) but this 1hit click drop with a massive aoe that requires no skill at all... really?
I mean it is hard enough to play sentinel when you play against pro players due to their crazy aim. now one of them goes vanguard and if the vanguard knows his job you cannot do **** anymore...
I totally agree with a buff for vanguard but this is too much.

FeloniustheBard
19th Oct 2015, 21:05
+100 to the OP and to akronym's comments. Bulwark should counter tyrant charge / marathon, that's it.

The DR and slowing effects, great. But the knockdown has to go, period. It's utterly ridiculous what it does now to Sentinels. If Psyonix leaves Bulwark as it is, Sentinel will quickly become a dead class. No one will play it.

Sentinels were one of the few good counters against Vanguards to begin with because they could pick them up to move them out of range of the rest of the human team. Now, the second a Vanguard hears a Sentinel dive, they activate Bulwark, no questions asked. Why wouldn't they? It knocks down anything within 20 or 30 feet of them.

It's a total-no brainer skill. You'd never use anything else. And any time a skill is a total no-brainer over any other available skill, it's overpowered.

And frankly it shouldn't block a Deceiver's Infect attack either. Infect is a touch attack; all it should take is a Deceiver's pinky touching you to work.

Swrods
19th Oct 2015, 21:19
Bulwark should not stop tyrants charge / marathon. Nothing should be able to stop a huge, fat tyrant running towards you ... You can't use charge vs good vanguards now. They will just stop you by poping bulwark for 0.5 sec.
I don't know why it should be a good idea to let a PRIMARY ability of human should deny a SPECIAL ability of a vampire? And that for getting almost no cooldown!
And btw. the bug with bulwark (vertical range) isn't fixed.
Ohh and i almost forgot: the range of bulwark is unbelievable large. As tyrant or sent it's not even possible to charge / abduct another human. The vanguard will still knockdown you.
And for everyone who says that the skill is fine: Look at the skill which it is replacing ... The heal / speed buff. Bulwark is way better than this skill.

TheDreamcrusher
19th Oct 2015, 23:49
Stop Charge with Bulwark? That's absurd. Vanguard is not a legendary wind and water sorcerer. The size is also absurd. That knockdown effect is absurd. The whole thing was just a mistake. It will be toned down.

ParadoxicalOmen
20th Oct 2015, 00:37
It's silly how untouchable Vang is now...and also how they completely destroy Sents...

Bulwark (knock down sent) + Axe + Shield charge + Axe and all team focus...now "deaded"

senjuj
20th Oct 2015, 01:03
oh jezus, its so tasty. fast cooked chicken = bulwark, knockdown, axe, bash, axe, axe = - 1000 hp.

akr0nym
20th Oct 2015, 08:58
In addition:
I just wonder how can you possibly implement a major class change like this when leagues is ongoing?
I know this game is beta. I know it's early access. But seriously? :D

I do know also that this patch was required to fix dodging.

But what about an experimental server option ingame so players that really want to help testing can do so and report issues theirselves before you drown us in bugs (sentinel wingflap hit deceivers) or 'half-baked' skills like bulwark?

--Ram--
20th Oct 2015, 11:08
So having played with / against bulwark a bit now here is my 2 cents:

1. I'm fine with bulwark being a strong ability, vanguard was very sub par without it and he needed some love
2. The current implementation is over to top for 2 reasons

The cooldown for flashing it is almost nothing yet the effect is incredibly strong. The cooldown needs to reflect that.

There is virtually no wind up time. A sentinel swoop, tyrant charge etc. has a tell and windup. This ability counters them with absolutely no tell or windup. That needs to change imho.

To illustrate how strong the lack of windup is:
The only way I can approach a vanguard with any success as a tyrant is to drop down out of range of bulwark and shockwave him. A marathon immediately after this hits any other class before they can do anything and is a key strength of the tyrant. A vanguard just says lol nope and bulwarks the instant he gets up blocking the charge. This leaves me with no other option but to never go near the vanguard, or to only engage him just after he stops a bulwark (in the 2 seconds before its ready again).

Tl:dr
To me either the ability needs to be weakened and allowed to be used as often as it is now, or it should stay this potent but be given a longer windup and much longer minimum cooldown.

Edit: Had another fun encounter. Bulwark the sentinel as he tries to abduct me, axe, shield charge, axe, BULWARK AGAIN, axe > ded. The second bulwark should never be possible in that engagement. Cooldown needs to be fixed.

Vampmaster
20th Oct 2015, 11:37
What would you think of a buildup rather than a windup? By that, I mean it starts straight away, but the effect is initially weak and has a small radius and increases over a few seconds. That way it's still functional as a protective spell off the bat, but the offensive side of it requires a bit more careful timing.

TheDreamcrusher
20th Oct 2015, 19:12
What would you think of a buildup rather than a windup? By that, I mean it starts straight away, but the effect is initially weak and has a small radius and increases over a few seconds. That way it's still functional as a protective spell off the bat, but the offensive side of it requires a bit more careful timing.

That would be ideal. The part of Bulwark that's being ignored now is the 50% damage reduction to team mates inside the vortex. If the knockdown were to take effect during the 3-5 second part of the duration there would be a lot more skill necessary to take advantage of Bulwark.

Bladestorm01
20th Oct 2015, 21:34
please guys, let us not forget that it goes through walls and it knockdowns vamps from walls also no skill is required. To hit a flying Seninel with a bola, hexshot or warbow is not easy but with bullwerk it is. Vanguard became a hard counter for sentinels because the only way to evade bullwerk with Sentinel is by changing the class or simply by not flying at all.
I can't understand why the devs would let the ability go live. I mean the infect bug was already a huge mistake and now this.
Test servers would be a great idea. Especially since league is not 24hours.

TheDreamcrusher
20th Oct 2015, 22:42
The Bulwark knockdown has been confirmed a bug. It's going away. I still feel that the windup knockdown (at 3-5 seconds) wouldn't be out of the question though.

Ygdrasel
20th Oct 2015, 22:55
What would you think of a buildup rather than a windup? By that, I mean it starts straight away, but the effect is initially weak and has a small radius and increases over a few seconds. That way it's still functional as a protective spell off the bat, but the offensive side of it requires a bit more careful timing.

That sounds just right.