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TendrilSavant
17th Nov 2014, 05:46
Some new suggestions; I know they're a bit radical but I would like to put them out there regardless.

Dodge Interactions with Reload
Being able to reload while dodging lowers a substantial amount of risk humans should have while reloading.

Two different ways of restricting reloading:

Dodge should cancel reload.
Reloading should not be interruptible.

In order to compensate, reloading times could be lowered depending on the class. (also, damages could revert to earlier numbers)


Turn Rate
This is very hard to sell, but adding a turn cap to humans and vampires would improve balance in my opinion.

Here's how I imagine it could work:

Rotation should be a limitation, but not a hindrance.
The fastest someone could turn 180 should be around 0.5sec to 1.0sec. (just an estimate)
Turn cap should be removed while dodging, for better control.
Turn cap during ADS/Charged Melee could be a bit more restrictive.

Vampires already have turn caps on certain abilities. This helps keep their strength in check against beginners but also limits them against higher skill players. This has always given Humans an edge, because vampire movement is much easier to predict. Also, no turn cap means vampire RNG growls are very easy to punish.

Adding a turn cap to vampires would also help with the melee+dodge cancel problem without removing it (I still would prefer it removed). One subtle strength the melee cancel has is that with no limitation to turning it's very easy to make instant 180 turns and melee out of bad situations.

PencileyePirate
17th Nov 2014, 17:19
Two different ways of restricting reloading:

Dodge should cancel reload.
Reloading should not be interruptible.


This might be nice and I'd be interested in play testing it.


Here's how I imagine it could work:

Rotation should be a limitation, but not a hindrance.
The fastest someone could turn 180 should be around 0.5sec to 1.0sec. (just an estimate)
Turn cap should be removed while dodging, for better control.
Turn cap during ADS/Charged Melee could be a bit more restrictive.

Vampires already have turn caps on certain abilities. This helps keep their strength in check against beginners but also limits them against higher skill players. This has always given Humans an edge, because vampire movement is much easier to predict. Also, no turn cap means vampire RNG growls are very easy to punish.

Sorry but I'm going to be brutally honest here ... what would make you think this could possibly work?

Limiting player rotation for certain melee skills is acceptable because it's temporary and short-lived. On the other hand: permanently limiting rotation on aiming [for either faction] would completely and thoroughly break the game.

SiD_Green
18th Nov 2014, 00:10
Sorry but I'm going to be brutally honest here ... what would make you think this could possibly work?


That isn't being "brutally honest", it's just a really arrogant way of disagreeing with something.

I do agree with you, though, that limiting player rotation is a bad idea, especially for humans. This would only make the game feel clunkier, I think.

PencileyePirate
18th Nov 2014, 07:18
That isn't being "brutally honest"

Actually, yes it is, but you may have misunderstood since it was in the form of a rhetorical question.

I probably should have said "That could not possibly work, ever, period."

OmniDetta
18th Nov 2014, 11:53
I must admit I was surprised when I first discovered that you could continue reloading while dodging.

However, I agree on the turn cap being a VERY bad idea, not only would this 'feel' terrible (akin to forcing everybody to play on a gamepad) but it would be oh so very exploitable on what is supposed to feel like a quick paced, death could come from any angle, shooter (not a mech sim)!

It would also make it neigh on impossible to twitch your shots; preventing an individual's ability to aim, or make quick, fluid strategic decisions & movements is not the way to achieve balance!

TendrilSavant
18th Nov 2014, 22:01
Actually, yes it is, but you may have misunderstood since it was in the form of a rhetorical question.

I probably should have said "That could not possibly work, ever, period."
It could definitely work, the problem is there isn't many games to point to where it's worked. But Nosgoth is a unique blend of mechanics, so mechanics that might seem industry standard might not work (no jumping in Nosgoth is a good thing). By the way, a turn rate cap was added to Sentinel flight to balance it's over all strength; so it's not out of the question to add turn cap all around, although I will say I see it being highly unlikely.



It would also make it neigh on impossible to twitch your shots; preventing an individual's ability to aim, or make quick, fluid strategic decisions & movements is not the way to achieve balance!
That's actually the point. I feel that playing humans well comes down to twitch aiming way too much; and let's face it, with with the subtle aim assist humans have aiming isn't that hard. Also worth mentioning, RNG growls make twitch shooting far too easy.

I'd much prefer if positioning and prediction of enemy movement was more important. Melee in general has limitations, if ranged doesn't get any limitations it will always be better than melee at higher levels (unless you want to screw over beginners by making melee stronger, which is what is going on thanks to the Sweeping Kick buff).