PDA

View Full Version : Sweeping Kick



selkirie
13th Nov 2014, 16:30
Haha I know the Reaver population will hate and not follow me on this one.

buuuuuuuuttt......

I believe Sweeping Kick needs a nerf.

Instant 400 damage every 8 seconds ( maybe 7 with Undying Wisdom ) is to my belief, incredibly too high.

Puncture gets a 12-15 cooldown. Even shockwave hits for 300 and it has a 15sec cooldown.
God, even Deceiver's backstab that is supposed to be omg so crazy damage finisher skilz has a poor hit detection, only 500 damage and 10 sec cooldown

It also renders the other reaver RMB skills pretty useles...
Let's not get into leap with its variable 225 -375 damage.
The fact is that it even is comparable damage wise to savage pounce which renders you useless for 2 seconds while you're hacking away.
I think it's safe to say that Sweeping Kick needs to at least deal 300 damage or to raise its cooldown to 12 seconds.
The fact is in a team of 3 reavers, the likeliness to die from 2 easy hittable kicks and one or two melee attacks is pretty game breaking in my honest opinion.

/inb4 Reaver mainers complaining XD

DISCUSS !

Jallford
13th Nov 2014, 17:47
I agree. It's such a boring ability too, anyone can kick.

I ran with Kick for a while but, despite everything, managed to miss repeatedly so swapped for Leap Attack which is way more fun.

Hyperspeed1000
13th Nov 2014, 18:18
well...first the reaver is already the class with the lowest dmg so making it even weaker is just nonsense, 2nd kick already used to have bigger cd and lower dmg and it was unplayable...making the matches even more human sided and 3rd kick is easy to dodge, vamps dont need nerfs they need buffs cuz the game is already unbalanced.

--Ram--
13th Nov 2014, 18:53
Haha I know the Reaver population will hate and not follow me on this one.

/inb4 Reaver mainers complaining XD


Is your primary objective here actually to discuss balance or just wind people up? Feels a lot like the latter



Instant 400 damage every 8 seconds ( maybe 7 with Undying Wisdom ) is to my belief, incredibly too high.


Yes the cooldown is very low, I don't think increasing it would do a great deal of harm. Not sure it is really a problem either. Vampires need to be superior to humans in melee combat, kick makes it so. Seems like it is working as intended.



Puncture gets a 12-15 cooldown. Even shockwave hits for 300 and it has a 15sec cooldown.
God, even Deceiver's backstab that is supposed to be omg so crazy damage finisher skilz has a poor hit detection, only 500 damage and 10 sec cooldown


Puncture is a strong skill, it's direction can be adjusted during the animation, kicks cannot. If a sentinel goes in for puncture generally they either win the fight or die, or flee and resume standard bombing/abducting harass. The cooldown is rarely (if ever) a limitation.

Shockwave is in no way comparable to these skills and is a huge aoe.

Deceivers also have infect which does virtually the same damage as kick and has an aoe component.

Kicks hit detection is also unreliable. This is not a balance issue anyway as it is clearly not intended and will likely be addressed.

Vamps should be happy that reavers have a strong melee combat move, this game isn't balanced as a vamp vs vamp dps competition. In overall balance terms a nerf to vampire's effectiveness is not required.



It also renders the other reaver RMB skills pretty useles...
Let's not get into leap with its variable 225 -375 damage.
The fact is that it even is comparable damage wise to savage pounce which renders you useless for 2 seconds while you're hacking away.


You are only addressing damage numbers here as if these skills are otherwise comparable. Savage pounce also renders the human useless for that two seconds.


I think it's safe to say that Sweeping Kick needs to at least deal 300 damage or to raise its cooldown to 12 seconds.
The fact is in a team of 3 reavers, the likeliness to die from 2 easy hittable kicks and one or two melee attacks is pretty game breaking in my honest opinion.


I don't think a 12 seconds cooldown is unreasonable. The damage is fine as is.

Your arguement that 2 kicks and 1-2 hits will kill a human applies to basically any skill in the game. It can also be applied to humans focusing a vampire. Focusing a target should most certainly mean that person is quickly eliminated, and there is nothing game breaking about it. That is just intelligent play.


I agree. It's such a boring ability too, anyone can kick.

I ran with Kick for a while but, despite everything, managed to miss repeatedly so swapped for Leap Attack which is way more fun.

Each to their own. I personally never liked leap or found it fun, it feels like a liability to me more often than not. I enjoy kick a great deal. Oh whats that Mr human you would like to walk out of that poison there? NOPE - kicked straight back in there. Never not fun.

TendrilSavant
14th Nov 2014, 04:45
The strength of Sweeping Kick is a little more subtler, in my opinion.

The small CD and high damage match the risks you run with a strictly close range ability, at least in theory. One problem is that charged melee circumvents this fairly easily. Plus, having the best melee+dodge cancel makes escaping failed attempt easy as well. Its short animation and fairly lenient recovery time also helps mitigate any risks from failed attempts.

Saturnity
14th Nov 2014, 06:46
Sweeping kick is the only primary that keeps vampires competitive. All the other vampires are just for utility and the leaping primaries are too easy to knock out of the air.

Khalith
14th Nov 2014, 07:47
Besides needing a longer CD and a target cap of one, I think kick is mostly fine, the wonky hitbox is why I stopped using it. Have had people try to roll to the side while I was kicking, sometimes they would still get hit, sometimes they wouldn't, after a while I gave up and went back to leap attack, haven't looked back since.

Edit:


well...first the reaver is already the class with the lowest dmg so making it even weaker is just nonsense, 2nd kick already used to have bigger cd and lower dmg and it was unplayable...making the matches even more human sided and 3rd kick is easy to dodge, vamps dont need nerfs they need buffs cuz the game is already unbalanced.

Reaver is the strongest vampire class right now. It's actually pretty OP honestly, however it's not nearly as OP as Prophet or Hunter though. But rather than buff all the vampires to that level, I prefer nerfing the outliers, that is to say, I'd rather bring Reaver, Hunter, and Prophet down to be closer to the weaker vamp classes. I don't buy in to the idea that when everyone is OP no one is, that's why I'd rather they nerf things and buff them later rather than do the opposite.

maresrb
14th Nov 2014, 09:38
I agree

selkirie
14th Nov 2014, 16:52
Is your primary objective here actually to discuss balance or just wind people up? Feels a lot like the latter

Yes the cooldown is very low, I don't think increasing it would do a great deal of harm. Not sure it is really a problem either. Vampires need to be superior to humans in melee combat, kick makes it so. Seems like it is working as intended


Puncture is a strong skill, it's direction can be adjusted during the animation, kicks cannot. If a sentinel goes in for puncture generally they either win the fight or die, or flee and resume standard bombing/abducting harass. The cooldown is rarely (if ever) a limitation.

Shockwave is in no way comparable to these skills and is a huge aoe.

Deceivers also have infect which does virtually the same damage as kick and has an aoe component.

Kicks hit detection is also unreliable. This is not a balance issue anyway as it is clearly not intended and will likely be addressed.

Vamps should be happy that reavers have a strong melee combat move, this game isn't balanced as a vamp vs vamp dps competition. In overall balance terms a nerf to vampire's effectiveness is not required.



You are only addressing damage numbers here as if these skills are otherwise comparable. Savage pounce also renders the human useless for that two seconds.


I don't think a 12 seconds cooldown is unreasonable. The damage is fine as is.

Your arguement that 2 kicks and 1-2 hits will kill a human applies to basically any skill in the game. It can also be applied to humans focusing a vampire. Focusing a target should most certainly mean that person is quickly eliminated, and there is nothing game breaking about it. That is just intelligent play.



Each to their own. I personally never liked leap or found it fun, it feels like a liability to me more often than not. I enjoy kick a great deal. Oh whats that Mr human you would like to walk out of that poison there? NOPE - kicked straight back in there. Never not fun.

My primary objective is to discuss balance.
Wind people up ? Why are you attacking for no reason ? This kind of behaviour was exactly the one I was expecting.
Puncture is a strong skill, and yes, Kick's direction can be modified while still flipping. It might not be as redirectable as Puncture then again, the kick releases straight away without having to wait for the anticipation move of the skill.
I don't understand your point on Sentinel, especially when there's absolutel no penalty for a Reaver to enter, Sweep Kick and Shadow step the heck out of there with no harm taken.
Shockwave deals only 300 damage, has poor AoE capacity ( the chances of you hitting several people is the same as when you hit two people with Kick which also has AoE.) Same with Puncture. Generally you will not find 3 players aligned perfectly to benefit from the "Aoe" you mention.
Kick's hit detection is highly superior to Puncture's, the hitbox on Puncture is ridiculous and takes actually some aiming to be able to ditch the damage. It only suffices with the person to be in front of you to get the kick in. Also you can just ditch Kick in right after a melee for greater chances of hitting the target as you are already aligned with your objective.

My comparison with other skills is to show how ridiculous the damage and the amount of times you can dith said damage. It wasn't in any case a vamp vs vamp competition.

I compare numbers simply to put in perspective the fact that other skills aren't really worth the while if you plan on doing maximum damage.
Also, most of the skills mentioned have that recovery time for humans where they don't take as much damage from melee and whereas Kick is a skill you can land and then move to hack away with full damage.
Savage pounce renders the attacked human useless, but what happens to the other 3 that shoot at you at the sight of. A pounce will generally leave a 400 health reaver and you won't be even dealing the damage you're supposed to with Pounce.
Kick on the other hand ? Drop down, kick, shadow step. If done correctly, you will have taken 200 damage at most.


The strength of Sweeping Kick is a little more subtler, in my opinion.

The small CD and high damage match the risks you run with a strictly close range ability, at least in theory. One problem is that charged melee circumvents this fairly easily. Plus, having the best melee+dodge cancel makes escaping failed attempt easy as well. Its short animation and fairly lenient recovery time also helps mitigate any risks from failed attempts.

There's little to no risk in placing a kick.


Sweeping kick is the only primary that keeps vampires competitive. All the other vampires are just for utility and the leaping primaries are too easy to knock out of the air.

I'm not sure what to say to this.


Besides needing a longer CD and a target cap of one, I think kick is mostly fine, the wonky hitbox is why I stopped using it. Have had people try to roll to the side while I was kicking, sometimes they would still get hit, sometimes they wouldn't, after a while I gave up and went back to leap attack, haven't looked back since.



well...first the reaver is already the class with the lowest dmg so making it even weaker is just nonsense, 2nd kick already used to have bigger cd and lower dmg and it was unplayable...making the matches even more human sided and 3rd kick is easy to dodge, vamps dont need nerfs they need buffs cuz the game is already unbalanced.

I have to disagree on it being the weakest class.
It's also one of the two only classes with a powerful distance ability.

RainaAudron
14th Nov 2014, 17:11
There's little to no risk in placing a kick.

I disagree. You have to be exposed in order to land it, unlike pounce with which you can stay out of sight. I still think it should have the knockback effect again as well so you can kick people off roofs.

selkirie
14th Nov 2014, 17:23
How are you more exposed with an instant ability with no anticipation than with one that is louder, has you pouncing on a enemy during two seconds ?
And I disagree with the knockback.

--Ram--
14th Nov 2014, 17:30
Savage pounce renders the attacked human useless, but what happens to the other 3 that shoot at you at the sight of. A pounce will generally leave a 400 health reaver and you won't be even dealing the damage you're supposed to with Pounce.


That is how many people use pounce, and it is a dumb way to use it. If you think you will be focused by three players you should not even initiate the pounce.



There's little to no risk in placing a kick.


Pretty definitive statement for something that is very situational. You still need to get next to the guy you want to kick. If you are playing against a decent team of course that involves risk. No team should let a reaver get to melee range unharmed. They probably won't stand somewhere you can just drop onto their face and kick them. And if they let that happen that's their mistake and they should be punished for it.

RainaAudron
14th Nov 2014, 17:56
How are you more exposed with an instant ability with no anticipation than with one that is louder, has you pouncing on a enemy during two seconds ?
And I disagree with the knockback.
This:

Pretty definitive statement for something that is very situational. You still need to get next to the guy you want to kick. If you are playing against a decent team of course that involves risk. No team should let a reaver get to melee range unharmed. They probably won't stand somewhere you can just drop onto their face and kick them. And if they let that happen that's their mistake and they should be punished for it.

You are exposed because you canĀ“t crouch, so enemies spot you much faster, unlike when you are ready to pounce or do a leap attack.

selkirie
14th Nov 2014, 18:02
That is how many people use pounce, and it is a dumb way to use it. If you think you will be focused by three players you should not even initiate the pounce.



Pretty definitive statement for something that is very situational. You still need to get next to the guy you want to kick. If you are playing against a decent team of course that involves risk. No team should let a reaver get to melee range unharmed. They probably won't stand somewhere you can just drop onto their face and kick them. And if they let that happen that's their mistake and they should be punished for it.

Exactly.

Against good teams Pounce is pretty much dumb to use. Simply because a good team will always be organised and look for their human counterparts.
That's why Kick is what almost EVERY experienced Reaver is using.

It's situational, there's nothing to say on that. But come on, let's be honest here.
Sometimes you can just drop down of a building, kick someone and escape right away. Getting in range isn't all that difficult. I believe the maps were designed that way.

--Ram--
14th Nov 2014, 18:56
Exactly.

Against good teams Pounce is pretty much dumb to use. Simply because a good team will always be organised and look for their human counterparts.
That's why Kick is what almost EVERY experienced Reaver is using.

It's situational, there's nothing to say on that. But come on, let's be honest here.
Sometimes you can just drop down of a building, kick someone and escape right away. Getting in range isn't all that difficult. I believe the maps were designed that way.

That is why I use kick yes. Kick reavers are the backbone of the vampire assault in my opinion. If kick is nerfed then vampires are nerfed and if that were to happen humans would be too dominant.

A reaver can still be shredded in the time it takes to drop, kick, and channel the shadowstep to escape. Or they can take no damage as you say. It entirely depends on the caliber of the opposition. I think it is the most effective hit and run / assassination tool in the vampire arsenal, however it is far from uncounterable and I don't believe it is too strong.

cmstache
14th Nov 2014, 19:21
My point I'd like to discuss is the CDs. I'm torn between my opinions here, BUT....

You can't compare the two. Puncture is a primary ability, Sweeping Kick is a special ability. They are not the same, and comparing them won't work. Puncture's CD was raised specifically because it was almost always off CD for the sent's playstyle, which was too much. Now you have to think about it and it matches the CD of many of the other vampire primary slots.

That's being said, I do think sweeping kick (and pounce) has too short of CDs. Leap attack doesn't have high damage output and is MUCH harder to aim. It has utility and the low cooldown keeps it at such, nor does it have any AoE damage. Kick has high burst and an AoE. It's the equivalent of a sentinel using abduct every 8 seconds. It's CC and damage. If sweeping kick remains with 8 second CD then Abnap, jump attack, and stabfect both need to have matching cooldowns.

TL DR The issue is and always has been the reaver's ability to have it's high damage output as spammable as it is. And this applies to things like Choking haze and Shadow step as well.

Saturnity
14th Nov 2014, 20:09
I'm not sure what to say to this.

That's because you're not a competitive player. You would know exactly what I mean if you played in ESL and saw what's successful and what's not.

The entire vampire side revolves around sweeping kick reavers. I've never seen less than 2 on a team have any success in top level play.

TendrilSavant
14th Nov 2014, 21:04
Sweeping kick is the only primary that keeps vampires competitive. All the other vampires are just for utility and the leaping primaries are too easy to knock out of the air.
Sweeping Kick's strength seems necessary in the competitive scene but it's a bit too strong in pubs, which is what most of the playerbase is interested in.

Really, the problem with the meta right now is human's overall strength. But, they can't be nerfed anymore than they currently are because that caused intermediate and beginner players to be steam rolled by vampires before. Personnally, I think this game will continue to have balance issues until an atempt to remove hitscan (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=16416&page=2&p=118721#post118721) is made.


That's because you're not a competitive player. You would know exactly what I mean if you played in ESL and saw what's successful and what's not.
Please stop insinuating people are wrong because they don't play at an esport level. A true competitive game need to be balanced at the beginner level of play just as much as the pro level.

selkirie
14th Nov 2014, 23:02
That's because you're not a competitive player. You would know exactly what I mean if you played in ESL and saw what's successful and what's not.

The entire vampire side revolves around sweeping kick reavers. I've never seen less than 2 on a team have any success in top level play.

I'm far from being a good player I must admit and I don't belong to the "elite" of competitive players.. But I do have my share of 300 + hours of gameplay and I can defend myself against some really good players.
I don't know what you mean simply because I believe every class has or should have something for than a utility.
And honestly, I don't have to play in ESL to know what's succesful or not.

In all cases though, your "competitive" opinion is further confirming what I'm saying.
If competitive scene revolves around a single ability it might be due to some reasons, don't you think ?

Saturnity
14th Nov 2014, 23:07
Please stop insinuating people are wrong because they don't play at an esport level. A true competitive game need to be balanced at the beginner level of play just as much as the pro level.

That's important too, but a competitive game will die if it isn't balanced at a competitive level. I was talking about the game's comp balance and he responded like I didn't know anything.




If competitive scene revolves around a single ability it might be due to some reasons, don't you think ?

It's because sweeping kick makes reaver viable, not overpowered. The other vampires can't win without reavers on cleanup; the vampire side is just lacking compared to humans in general. If kick gets nerfed, they need something else.

ApollosBow
15th Nov 2014, 00:42
I agree but nerfing vampires again is a mistake, instead buff the other skills for balance, or other vamps skills like the ones you mentioned...I already made a thread about buffing leaps min damage too no avail though, and think the tyrant deserves an extra 100 health, not a sentinel fan so cant comment, cant recall getting hit with backstap maybe give it more reward for its hit detection risk, 600dmg...


.......and everyone needs to take a chill pill and realize there reading threads in the "Feedback and Suggestions" section. Your all bound to bump into an opinion that's different from your own, try not to take it personally.

xBaseLine
15th Nov 2014, 03:32
I definitly disagree with that. What else could this class attack with? It's the main active abillity and in my opinion its okay. The bombs they trough are easy to dodge. So to nerf the kick, what else should ppl stick to play this class?
Its easy to dodge, easy to quit "bola, whipe". All other classes got good "Q" attacks only the reaver dont. So, a nerf is on the wrong place. I still dont get it why ppl still talk about unbalance, its perfect like its now. All depends on timeing and teamplay. Over and out.

selkirie
15th Nov 2014, 10:08
I agree but nerfing vampires again is a mistake, instead buff the other skills for balance, or other vamps skills like the ones you mentioned...I already made a thread about buffing leaps min damage too no avail though, and think the tyrant deserves an extra 100 health, not a sentinel fan so cant comment, cant recall getting hit with backstap maybe give it more reward for its hit detection risk, 600dmg...


.......and everyone needs to take a chill pill and realize there reading threads in the "Feedback and Suggestions" section. Your all bound to bump into an opinion that's different from your own, try not to take it personally.

THIS.


I definitly disagree with that. What else could this class attack with? It's the main active abillity and in my opinion its okay. The bombs they trough are easy to dodge. So to nerf the kick, what else should ppl stick to play this class?
Its easy to dodge, easy to quit "bola, whipe". All other classes got good "Q" attacks only the reaver dont. So, a nerf is on the wrong place. I still dont get it why ppl still talk about unbalance, its perfect like its now. All depends on timeing and teamplay. Over and out.

Hey, I'm not suggesting they remove the whole entire ability haha. You are still gonna be able to attack with it.
What I am saying is just that either it does a bit less damage either its spammability to be reduced.

Seeing all these replies is really just making it clearer for me that Sweeping kick needs at least to be at 12 sec cooldown if the damage ays the same and the rest of the classes need a lil but just a lil bit more power.
Having one single class with one single ability rule the vampire scene is pretty boring in my opinion.

It might be in stuff like Apollo mentioned, Tyrant 100 more hp.. maybe 5% 10 % more in Enrage to make it actually interesting to use. and yeah Backstab 600 to make it also compete with Infect.

Varulven
15th Nov 2014, 16:18
Hmmm I don't see Reavers ruling the vampy scene... Tyrants are tha kings, imo.
To be honest I have the feelin' the Reaver is the weakest vampire atm, so nerfing him again would make him completely useless. Lord Dumah wouldn't be amused ;)

--Ram--
15th Nov 2014, 16:44
To be honest I have the feelin' the Reaver is the weakest vampire atm, so nerfing him again would make him completely useless.

If you say so sir. Perhaps kick is underdone and needs a buff then?

xBaseLine
16th Nov 2014, 20:27
I agree with Varulven. Reaver is the weakest class atm. So nerf him no matter with cd on sweep kick or nerf on the dmg it does is just useless. I would say if the kick gets more cd or lower dmg they need to improve the dmg of their bombs. Well its just my opinion ;)

--Ram--
17th Nov 2014, 02:38
Reaver bombs are in no way weak. They just need to be used in conjunction with an attack.

You should not expect to be able to throw a poison bomb into the humans and have it do more than 100 dmg to anyone if they are not otherwise occupied/distracted/stunned/getting their face clawed off. Anyone with even moderate awareness can roll out of a bomb before taking damage most of the time.

If the bomb pops just as a tyrant charges through and two reavers come in to kick, it is a different story. Aim to be in the fight while the bomb is present, don't use it for chip damage pre-fight.

GenFeelGood
17th Nov 2014, 03:16
The kick has been a proverbial yoyo.

Upon release it could kick a person so far it would put the Tyrant's throw ability to shame while doing marginally less damage. For those who think that is way it should be I say **** NO!!!, everyone played reaver with this and whole matches consisted of humans being reduced to futballs. You think being constantly cc by Tyrants is annoying, try consistently being kicked around the map til you die without being able to do much of anything to defend yourself for the entire round.

Then they took away the cc and it became useless.

Now we have the current iteration that deals greater damage with a smaller degree of the cc. I like this, it can serve as a finisher while also functioning properly in hit and run.

I believe that in terms of superiority it all comes down to the player and the enemy. I have dominated and been decimated while playing all of the vamp classes as I worked to max them all.

selkirie
18th Nov 2014, 14:41
I agree with Varulven. Reaver is the weakest class atm. So nerf him no matter with cd on sweep kick or nerf on the dmg it does is just useless. I would say if the kick gets more cd or lower dmg they need to improve the dmg of their bombs. Well its just my opinion ;)

Can't agree on everything. Reaver is far from being the weakest class. It's the fastest, and with a 8 sec cooldown and 400 instant dmg one of the most deadly classes.

Improve bombs ? In what way ? Isn't it enough that for just barely touching the outer circle you get an instant 200 damage even if you dodged the entire ability.

Also, Bump...

I would really love to hear the devs opinion on this subject.

SilentVirtue
19th Nov 2014, 06:44
I'm far from being a good player I must admit and I don't belong to the "elite" of competitive players.. But I do have my share of 300 + hours of gameplay and I can defend myself against some really good players.
I don't know what you mean simply because I believe every class has or should have something for than a utility.
And honestly, I don't have to play in ESL to know what's succesful or not.

In all cases though, your "competitive" opinion is further confirming what I'm saying.
If competitive scene revolves around a single ability it might be due to some reasons, don't you think ?

Since Selkirie doesnt have the ESL experience, I'm going to weigh in here a little, the problem isn't with sweeping kick, its with the kick + shadows step combo,

The problem lies with human CC being longer than shadowstep, meaning if i bola, you shadow step the damage wait 8 seconds and then finish me off, its an anti-fun mechanic to land a bola on a reaver just before he kicks to simply watch him shadow away.

Dead Sun don't always use multiple reavers and do just fine (currently no2 in EU) basically, there is not another good option for reaver because this ability has only 1 downside, range, and jumping off the nearest building = your in range.

What should be happening is that all options for all classes are viable, and nerfing sweeping kick (or the ability to break CC on the F ability) would mean there is risk to the reaver, as a sentinel main, if i take a bola, its a death sentence, if a reaver take a bola, its a small cool down.

Personally, I think the skill cap for vampires needs to be higher, but more rewarding, with humans its group up, cover your allies and call for help when needed (assuming your strategy and composition is good)

For vampires is LMB after sweeping kick, Q before you go in F when you get CC'd vampire attacks should do no damage to a human who is rolling, but up the damage so that when it does connect its rewarding (or something along those lines)

selkirie
19th Nov 2014, 07:55
Since Selkirie doesnt have the ESL experience, I'm going to weigh in here a little, the problem isn't with sweeping kick, its with the kick + shadows step combo,

The problem lies with human CC being longer than shadowstep, meaning if i bola, you shadow step the damage wait 8 seconds and then finish me off, its an anti-fun mechanic to land a bola on a reaver just before he kicks to simply watch him shadow away.

Dead Sun don't always use multiple reavers and do just fine (currently no2 in EU) basically, there is not another good option for reaver because this ability has only 1 downside, range, and jumping off the nearest building = your in range.

What should be happening is that all options for all classes are viable, and nerfing sweeping kick (or the ability to break CC on the F ability) would mean there is risk to the reaver, as a sentinel main, if i take a bola, its a death sentence, if a reaver take a bola, its a small cool down.

Personally, I think the skill cap for vampires needs to be higher, but more rewarding, with humans its group up, cover your allies and call for help when needed (assuming your strategy and composition is good)

For vampires is LMB after sweeping kick, Q before you go in F when you get CC'd vampire attacks should do no damage to a human who is rolling, but up the damage so that when it does connect its rewarding (or something along those lines)

Actually I do have ESL experience. As little it may be hahahaha

Also, Saturnity already has weighted in his "competitive" experience.
Please stop insinuating my opinion is less valid because I don't play at an esport level. What is it with you Knights of the ESL ? ^^

Did you read through the whole thread ? The problem wouldn't exist if Sweeping Kick wasn't spammable and so damage heavy.
I don't mind getting pounced nor leaped.
If I get leaped on twice by a reaver, chances I still have 600 - 500 HP to put up a fight.
Now two kicks ? hahaha 250 health. Add in the occasional avoided Airstrike and Chocking Haze.
So yeah, Shadow Step is part of the problem but is perfect as it is. It comes with Reaver's ability to get in and out of a fight instantanely.

SilentVirtue
19th Nov 2014, 08:17
Appologies Selk, I mis-worded what i said, and i did not mean to offend you by saying you didn't have any experience,

The Knights of the ESL is a Sacred Sect! we have a round table and everything,

Still, the problem is that there is no counter play at the moment, there is no feasible way you can lock a reaver down, meaning there is almost a guaranteed escape. My problem with that is it takes nearly ALL the risk away.

there needs to be some weakness in the whole combo,

For example, the sentinel has weaknesses when stopping to use airstrike, when moving in to grab, and a very small window to dodge at the Q,

The reaver has an easy sweeping kick (which is faster than all human CC) deals enough damage for 2 auto attacks, stumbles the target meaning another free auto attack, and then an escape that breaks all CC except for Hex shot.

there are multiple ways to counter a sentinel (warbow, hex shot, bola), only 1 to counter a reaver and requires a specific class using a specific loadout.

xBaseLine
21st Nov 2014, 11:05
Appologies Selk, I mis-worded what i said, and i did not mean to offend you by saying you didn't have any experience,

The Knights of the ESL is a Sacred Sect! we have a round table and everything,

Still, the problem is that there is no counter play at the moment, there is no feasible way you can lock a reaver down, meaning there is almost a guaranteed escape. My problem with that is it takes nearly ALL the risk away.

there needs to be some weakness in the whole combo,

For example, the sentinel has weaknesses when stopping to use airstrike, when moving in to grab, and a very small window to dodge at the Q,

The reaver has an easy sweeping kick (which is faster than all human CC) deals enough damage for 2 auto attacks, stumbles the target meaning another free auto attack, and then an escape that breaks all CC except for Hex shot.

there are multiple ways to counter a sentinel (warbow, hex shot, bola), only 1 to counter a reaver and requires a specific class using a specific loadout.

Well there are some ways to stop a reavers sweeping kick. (Whipe,Bola and Hexshot) also Warbow can cancel it.
Anyway i think its okay for the Reaver because it's always a high risk for him to go in. (Very fast down)
I would agree to higher the cooldown a bit or to nerf it to 350 but thats all. I think the classes are good balanced ;)
But like always, this is just my opinion (:

SmurfPoopie
23rd Nov 2014, 23:52
I had this same debate with someone on the Nosgoth steam community forums. These are my reasons why sweeping kick does not need a nerf. Incoming massive wall of text with no tl;dr.

I'll start this off by saying that this is a comparison of reaver skills only. Each different vamp class has their own unique abilities and playstyle and therefore can't be compared.


DPS

Pounce (Aim assist) is on a 12 second cooldown that does 200-400 damage with 240 damage over 2 seconds. If you hit a max damage pounce, that's 640 damage on a 12 second cooldown. Now if you constantly maximize the damage every single time you get 53.33 repeating dps. Minimum dps is 36.66 repeating, while average damage of pounce is roughly 45 dps. (Numbers are assuming you get the max damage over 2 seconds.)

Savage pounce (No aim assist) is also on a 12 second cooldown that does 275-550 damage and 280 damage over 2 seconds. If you hit a max damage save pounce, that's 830 damage. Max damage from savage pounce leads to a dps of 69.167. Minimum dps is 46.25 and the average savage pounce damage is 57.70833. (Numbers are assuming you get the max damage over 2 seconds.)

Leap attack (No aim assist, but skill is instant) is on an 8 second cooldown that does 225-375 damage. Max damage should be obvious. Max damage on leap attack leads to a dps of 46.875. Minimum dps is 28.125 while on average the dps of leap attack nets 37.5.

Sweeping kick (No aim assist, hits in an arc and is instant. Carries your current forward momentum during the attack.) is on an 8 second cooldown that does 400 damage. Which in turn leads to a dps of 50.


Utility/Pros:

The pounces and leap attack are fairly similar in their utility.

Pounce: Has aim assist, gap closer, can be used as an escape, puts vampire in a sort of high crawl making them difficult to hit in certain situations, ~2 second CC while doing damage. Max damage pounce is 640 damage.

Savage pounce: Gap closer, can be used as an escape, puts vampire in a sort of high crawl making them difficult to hit in certain situations, ~2 second CC while doing damage. Max damage savage pounce is 830 damage.

Leap attack: Instant, Gap closer, can be used as an escape, puts vampire in a sort of high crawl making them difficult to hit in certain situations, since leap attack instantly puts you in a high crawl while maintaining your base movement speed, it is very easy to dodge incoming fire and making yourself a difficult target to hit. Max damage leap attack is 375 damage

Sweeping kick: Carries your current momentum forward and hits in a slight arc. Used to supplement melee attacks. Has fairly high damage on a decent cooldown.


Cons:

Pounce: Can be dodged or knocked out of the leap animated with any sort of stun, bola, knockback, or hex. If you land on a human at the wrong time, you will take a lot of damage.

Savage pounce: Can be dodged or knocked out of the leap animated with any sort of stun, bola, knockback, or hex. If you land on a human at the wrong time, you will take a lot of damage.

Leap attack: Low damage compared to other reaver skills. (But the utility makes up for the lack of damage.)

Sweeping kick: Can be dodged or knocked out of the animation with any sort of stun, bola, knockback, or hex. Must be in melee range to hit, hit detection is wonky and will lead to quite a bit of missed kicks, nearly impossible to hit someone on stairs.


Complaints that I've seen:

"Too easy to use" - I don't really understand where this is coming from. Sweeping kick is used to supplement your melee attacks not an end all be all skill that kills everything you touch. It probably is easy to use against lower tier players, but if you want to balance skills based on the low tier of players than you are eviscerating the competitive balance that is needed at high tiers of play.

"Kick is way too easy to hit with" - This goes back to the lower tiered players being easy pickings for anyone that has a lot of experience in the game. If you play against high tiered players and they dodge/roll your kick, you're most likely a dead reaver. Kick can be dodged and sometimes the hit detection is kind of, for lack of a better word, ****ty.

"The cooldown is too short" - I beg to differ. In my experience the cool is just right, it should allow you to get off roughly 2 kicks in a team fight. Any longer of a cooldown and the reaver is subjected to throwing haymakers for the rest of the fight after he uses his kick and his choking/smoke bomb. Sweeping kick is a melee skill that is used to supplement your melee attacks to quickly bring down a target. Reavers are the killers they are supposed to be, they are squishy but they move very fast.

"Sweeping kick is op when combined with shadow step. All they do is kick and shadow step out." - If you let a reaver get close enough to kick you and you don't punish him for it, that's your fault along with your team. If he shadow steps in to kick, then he has no sure way to get out unscathed and he must be punished. Majority of pubs lack situational awareness. It comes down to having your team watch your back while you watch theirs.

"Sweeping kick has too much damage compared to it's cooldown." - I conveniently put in the dps numbers up top. If you land a kick that leaves the human with ~600 health. If you land a max damage pounce they have ~250 hp, with a max damage savage pounce they have around 170. If anything, compared to the other skills which have way more utility than kick, sweeping kick should get a slight damage buff. Sweeping kick has a high risk associated with it, as you are gimping yourself by not having the extra utility of the pounces.


My thoughts:

Sweeping kick is probably one of the most balanced skills in the game at this point in time. It has great synergy with the the reaver's other skills, like kicking someone back into choking haze, or disrupting a human skill. There are some things that could be fixed with it. The hit detection is kind of wonky at times and it's impossible to hit someone on stairs with sweeping kick. It. Is. Impossible.


Closing:

I'm sure there are people out there that will disagree with everything that I have posted above. Everyone has their own opinions that stem from something. Majority of what I have posted above contains facts and some of my own thoughts/ideas that have lead me to my opinion. Feel free to post your thoughts after looking at the data subjectively. I still do not see how people still think sweeping kick is overpowered in any way after looking at the facts. All I ask is that the debate is kept civil and trolls need not apply.


TL;DR:

There won't be one.

cmstache
24th Nov 2014, 00:30
Couple things I noticed, unless it's changed in the last patch or two, savage pounce max damage is higher than 830... But that's a different discussion, and it's pretty rare.


Honestly, the biggest issue is that Sweeping kick isn't dodge-able (outside of luck), and more importantly has no tell. Every other ability has a tell and thus able to be dodged, and this goes for every vampire special attack, deceivers included if you are aware and use your ears. The only exception to this is a point-blank leap attack which is still less damage at a higher cool down without AoE damage. It's essentially a charged attack with no risk and significantly easier to land.


Side note: This has come up in the past as well, but on a personal note, I hate the skill as part of the Reaver's kit. It feels like they had it designed and threw it in because it fit closer to the Reaver style than the others, even though it still feels off.


EDIT: Forgot to note, pounce and savage pounce both require you to be stationary to deal damage, which is HUGE. This makes it MUCH easier to punish a pouncing Reaver than a Kicking one. In fact, I think it's the largest issue. It goes back to the risk thing. With tools like evasion AND shadow step, Reavers still have far too much survivability compared to the other classes (overall vampire vs human balance aside, because that's a different issue.)

SmurfPoopie
24th Nov 2014, 02:51
Sweeping kick is very dodge-able. Granted it doesn't have an audio cue but it has a wind up before the kick actually happens. If you see it coming then it can be easily dodged. Every skills has either an audio cue or an animation cue, sometimes they have both. It all comes down to positioning.

The pounces have a higher cooldown because of the utility that is associated with the skill. If you let the humans see you while you are preparing to pounce then you are doing it wrong. If you are the one leading the team fight with pounce then you are doing it wrong. Ideally, as a reaver, you should be the last one in cleaning up the kills and/or cc priority targets. Reaver's are far too squishy, outside of their defensive cooldowns, to be tanking and/or taking chip damage.


It's essentially a charged attack with no risk and significantly easier to land.
I would have to disagree with that. I've had so many kicks dodged from players such as RazielWarmonic, Messer Fecter, and kon just to name a few, but I've also landed a fair amount of kicks by coming from awkward places and at awkward times. From my experience, playing against an aware team of humans make it significantly harder to land any close range skill. Charged attack has a much larger room for error because it takes your further and it can be curved to hit your target if it moves. While you can aim kick to a degree, it's not the the extent that you can with a charged attack, which both hit for roughly the same damage iirc.

Personally, I find it much harder to run with sweeping kick than it is if you go with pounce. The o **** factor of missing a kick is much more punishing since you have to run into melee range to use it. Reaver's need something to do close range damage, or they would just be throwing haymakers after they engage which isn't fun at all. Sweeping kick and the pounces all require positioning and timing, if you mess up, then expect to take more than a few arrows to the face. That goes for all skills.

I have noticed that some of the less experienced players stay in pounce close by the humans waiting for an opportunity. They also either lead the team fight with with pounce or they try to pounce while a human is looking and shooting at them. A lot of the good players, that I've played against, wait patiently and you will not see or hear the them coming until it's too late to dodge. Positioning and timing is the key to this game (along with supporting teammates).

A lot of players fail to adapt to situations. I don't mean this in a bad way and I'm not name calling. But if you fail to adapt to certain situations and are failing to adapt to things that are happening then there is no way you can expect to get better and compete with higher tier players. I also understand that people like to play casually. But balance should not be made around casual play for a competitive game.

Sluagh
24th Nov 2014, 03:28
Reaver is easily most damaging class to play. You are generally fast, have decent moves and escape loads of damage. Have much more of a problem fighting with sentinel and tyrant, but I think that's my noob skills.

I personally like the sweeping kicks as it is. Ok, it's not like somekind of Pele-esque manoevre now, but it has a low cd, and can be used to really soften up and finish humans and encourages a much more fluid play than the pounce, which I've started to find annoying tbh. The bombs are fine as they are, as a few people rightly say, you can't use them for damage in their own right, unless you're desperate. You need to use them in crowded places when humies are being attacked, or use them to block exits/retreats etc.

TendrilSavant
25th Nov 2014, 21:44
Forgot to note, pounce and savage pounce both require you to be stationary to deal damage, which is HUGE. This makes it MUCH easier to punish a pouncing Reaver than a Kicking one.
Also worth mentioning is the recovery animation. All pounces have a recovery animation even if it doesn't connect, this also makes pounces easy to punish. Kick on the other hand doesn't, you can dodge as soon as the damage goes in or keep dealing damage if the situation is right. You can even cancel the animation without triggering a full cooldown on Kick, in case you completely miss.



If you let the humans see you while you are preparing to pounce then you are doing it wrong.
Image below shows how much range the audio cues have, you don't need to be seen to reveal your position with Pounces.




From my experience, playing against an aware team of humans make it significantly harder to land any close range skill.
Kick's underlying balance problems stem from how dominate humans are at the moment. Before the buff to Kick, it wasn't uncommon for scrim rounds to end with humans scoring 30 to vampires 10. Scores are closer, but only if you have 3 Reaver's running Kick and one specialist vampire providing support. Kick may not seem that strong against good players, but without it vampires can't keep up.

selkirie
25th Nov 2014, 22:34
There won't be one.

Now that's not something you decide now is it ?

I don't get the wall of text comparing the 4 different skills. Don't think anybody needs a definition of every skill-
Anyhow, to the interesting part.
"TOo easy to use :"
I'm not trying to balance skills based on low tier players. Sweep Kick + Evasion/Shadowstep is one of the cheapest and easiest combos to use in the entire game.
There's little to no risk to get damaged in an attempt if done right since you can just get away unharmed.
And this is not low tier players we are talking about. This tactic is used by the best players in the game. and even they say the skill is totally unbalanced.

"Kick is way too easy to hit with :"
Not again the lowered tier players. If you play against high tiered players, you're most likely a high tiered Reaver and you'll be sure to land the kick.
You see, even when rolling backwards, kick has such a large distance it can hit you.
And again, NO. A missed kick rarely leads to a dead reaver... in high tier play.

"Sweeping kick is op when combined with shadow step."
Come on now, I don't think you are thinking this out too much. You're always thinking about a team of humans and just one reaver, it seems.
There's 3 other vampires with their respective skills and CCs. No reaver is gonna go for a kick right in the open with a team of 4 high tiered players waiting for him. Reavers don't have a hard time getting in and out of a fight.

"Sweeping kick has too much damage:"
Again, seems you didn't read any of the other posts.
Max damage pounces shouldn't even come into discussion since they never happen. Let's not forget its a stationary skill. And what TendrilSavant said is also worth pointing out.
Recovery animation. Kick has none.
I do agree about balance though. As said before, competitive games circle around kick.
Let's just get the other classes up there instead of having one over powered ability and let's differentiate Humans Vs Vamps balance and Vamps vs Vamp balance

I, on my side, do not see how, looking at the facts, you can say Kick is one of the most balanced skills in the game. ( except if you are a reaver mainer :P )

Psyonix_Corey
25th Nov 2014, 23:13
Good thread guys, just wanted to let you know we were keeping tabs on it.

My general thoughts at this point are:

Sweeping Kick probably needs to be tuned down a little bit. Not a big nerf, but maybe a little tweaking to its animation speed and distance covered without sacrificing responsiveness.
The heavy reliance on SK Reavers, while it might not last forever as people discover new strategies, speaks to the problem of vampire skill scaling being constrained by animation-locked abilities. Tyrant suffers the worst in this respect as his added HP doesn't necessarily offset his deficiencies in movement and animation speeds. Unfortunately, we can't just "buff" him without utterly destroying the low-to-mid tier game, it will take more careful thought and consideration. In general, I would like to revisit some of our past design decisions RE: anim warmups, tells, etc. to allow for more player skill without making vampires unstoppable murder machines at the low end.
The other subtext to this conversation is about how dependent vampires are on survival cooldowns and how much it changes the meta. I would still like to avoid a world in which every competitive tier vampire needs an Evasion / Shadowstep equivalent to be useful, but recognize how the current setup makes it hard to pick Deceiver, for instance, in comp. play.

cmstache
25th Nov 2014, 23:18
Also worth mentioning is the recovery animation. All pounces have a recovery animation even if it doesn't connect, this also makes pounces easy to punish. Kick on the other hand doesn't, you can dodge as soon as the damage goes in or keep dealing damage if the situation is right. You can even cancel the animation without triggering a full cooldown on Kick, in case you completely miss.

This is probably something I should have mentioned. And you're 100% right. It goes into what I was mentioning about not being able to punish kick.


As for the "awareness" aspect of game play, I've been around a while. I'm not saying I'm the best player on the planet (although I'm fairly solid) I know my share of the game mechanics and understand all too well how things should be done in high level play. Adaption has nothing to do with it. A lot of players can adapt. The problem lies in the fact, as Saturn mentioned earlier, that you HAVE to have the skill as a vampire in order to compete with humans. That in itself means there's a balance issue. Honestly, the human DPS should be nerfed almost across the board, and the few vampire abilities that are considered "OP" need to be reigned in. It's already to the point where a CC means instant death, which is a little harsh considering how easy they are to land for the most part.

Or as Corey but it:




The heavy reliance on SK Reavers, while it might not last forever as people discover new strategies, speaks to the problem of vampire skill scaling being constrained by animation-locked abilities. Tyrant suffers the worst in this respect as his added HP doesn't necessarily offset his deficiencies in movement and animation speeds. Unfortunately, we can't just "buff" him without utterly destroying the low-to-mid tier game, it will take more careful thought and consideration. In general, I would like to revisit some of our past design decisions RE: anim warmups, tells, etc. to allow for more player skill without making vampires unstoppable murder machines at the low end.



In other words, if a skill is clearly "better" then there's probably something wrong.

TendrilSavant
26th Nov 2014, 00:45
Tyrant suffers the worst in this respect as his added HP doesn't necessarily offset his deficiencies in movement and animation speeds. Unfortunately, we can't just "buff" him without utterly destroying the low-to-mid tier game, it will take more careful thought and consideration.
That reminds me of something I've been meaning to bring up. Tyrant Shockwave can be activated mid air, timing it right allows the actual ability to go off as you land. I don't know if this was ever intentional, but it does add to Tyrant's skill ceiling. If it is intentional maybe adding "can be used midair" to the tooltip, like in fighting game movelists, would help improve some people's understanding of the class. Maybe more abilities like that could be added to other classes, i.e. abilities that have versatility in the air.

Vampmaster
26th Nov 2014, 01:01
Good thread guys, just wanted to let you know we were keeping tabs on it.

My general thoughts at this point are:

Sweeping Kick probably needs to be tuned down a little bit. Not a big nerf, but maybe a little tweaking to its animation speed and distance covered without sacrificing responsiveness.
The heavy reliance on SK Reavers, while it might not last forever as people discover new strategies, speaks to the problem of vampire skill scaling being constrained by animation-locked abilities. Tyrant suffers the worst in this respect as his added HP doesn't necessarily offset his deficiencies in movement and animation speeds. Unfortunately, we can't just "buff" him without utterly destroying the low-to-mid tier game, it will take more careful thought and consideration. In general, I would like to revisit some of our past design decisions RE: anim warmups, tells, etc. to allow for more player skill without making vampires unstoppable murder machines at the low end.
The other subtext to this conversation is about how dependent vampires are on survival cooldowns and how much it changes the meta. I would still like to avoid a world in which every competitive tier vampire needs an Evasion / Shadowstep equivalent to be useful, but recognize how the current setup makes it hard to pick Deceiver, for instance, in comp. play.


Even some changes to the camera during the Tyrants charge move would improve his usefulness without actually buffing him. A very subtle hint as to his jump distance could help too. I'm not saying pinpoint accuracy, as that would make him need no skill, but maybe something that shows the peak, but not tbe landing point or only shows prior to taking off.

selkirie
26th Nov 2014, 08:13
Good thread guys, just wanted to let you know we were keeping tabs on it.

My general thoughts at this point are:

Sweeping Kick probably needs to be tuned down a little bit. Not a big nerf, but maybe a little tweaking to its animation speed and distance covered without sacrificing responsiveness.

This is music for my ears Corey ! Music for my ears ! XD

Anyway, if I may, I don't believe that the timing on the animation speed is the problem with Kick. The timing is about right. It's hardly dodgable but dodgable if you see it coming.
I do believe that a slight increase in the cooldown time could level things up just a bit. Maybe 10-12 seconds ?
I also think adding some HP to our poor Reaver wouldn't hurt if that nerf to kick happens.

On the rest of the vamps, even with the slight increase in attack and movement speed in the last patch, I don't think Tyrant needed that HP decrease. As you said, it doesn't offset his deficiencies. In my humble opinion, Tyrant's life should go back to where it was.
An enraged Tyrant doesn't last more than 2 seconds in high level play. You are bola'ed and it's most likely over. 100 Hp won't change that much to that, but it might help a tyrant or two escape.

I really like Prophet and it hurts to say, but while at it I think that Heavy Pistols need some kind of downgrade too.

SmurfPoopie
26th Nov 2014, 09:02
@SilentVirtue I somehow missed your posts. You have brought up some very good points. But by using shadow step to get out of a cc and keep attacking is very risky because you don't anything left to escape and you have to fight to the death. Again, you have brought up some really good points. Since sweeping kick itself is not the problem and a combination of skills is the problem, I honestly don't have an answer on how that could be balanced while still keeping how the skills fundamentally work the same.

@selkirie I think you might have misunderstood a few things. I decided to not do a TLDR on a post I wrote, so yes, it was my decision. The complaints I've seen section were from multiple places, not just this thread. I was compiling a list of what I could remember at the time. I realize that there are more than one vamp on a team. But I am analyzing the skill itself. If you throw in too variables like class composition, skills, ping, communication, etc., then there is no way to properly get facts, only what-ifs. If you would be so kind as to providing links to which of these players say that sweeping is unbalance I would really appreciate it.

@TendrilSavant Thank you for pointing out the animations, it wasn't something I even considered. You have brought up some really good points along with cmstache.

@cmstache I apologize if it seemed like I was insulting anyone, that was not my intention. I understand what you're saying about not being able to punish the skill itself and you bring up really good points, but what I'm trying to say is that they have to be in melee range in order to use it. Positioning and awareness of the whole human team should not let the reaver get in close enough to use kick without taking damage. Essentially, a reaver should not get a free kick unless someone over extended.

@Psyonix_Corey I really appreciate what you guys have done so far and how active the team is on the forums. Would it be too much to ask if we could possibly get some info on what changes you guys were looking at so the community could give input?

The point I was trying to make was that I've seen people charge a pounce and try to land it while a human is shooting at them. I've seen plenty of other terrible ways that pounce has been utilized and it makes me cringe. You honestly can not expect to land a pounce, especially with the audio cue's being how they are, by giving away your position before the fight starts. The charge time on the pounces are short and you don't not need to be giving away your position while you're setting up for an engagement. If I recall correctly, pounce does damage in 2 stages. The first stage is where the bulk of damage comes from and the second stage is where both targets are immobile and the human takes damage over time. Also, I'm pretty sure but not 100% certain, you can press the skill again and cancel the second stage.


The reasons why I think it's balanced especially as a special slot is because of lack of utility. For balance sake, if you have a skill that has little to no utility compared to other skills, then you need to give it a lowish cool down with good damage or give it a high cooldown with massive damage. What I mean is this, most of the special slot skills have something else attached to it other than damage. I dislike comparing class skills with another class because they each have something unique that fits the class they are for. My point in doing this is to show that no other special skill has just damage, it has damage and utility. (I put in deceiver's disguise for continuity.)

Tyrant
Charge - Really good gap closer, 325 damage, proper timing and placement should net 2-3 hits, knocks down on hit, can also be used as a gap extender for hit and run.

Jump attack - 550 aoe, 500 ish dmg, fairly easy to hit with practice, can be used to move around the map very quickly, can leap over obstacles/buildings and come from weird places. Big con - Easy to shut down if countered as the hang time is quite long.


Sentinel
Kidnap - Amazing CC ability, one of the better CC abilities on the vamp team due to how it works (imo of course), damage is considered unreliable because you drop your victim after you have taken ~250 damage, although unreliable the drop damage is huge and it sets up for your other skills.

Abduct - Nearly the same as kidnap except it does 120 damage per second on top of having the drop damage. Does not last as long as kidnap.


Deceiver
Disguise - Perfect invis for ~5 seconds (footstep poofs can be seen, but is still hard to notice), great skill to use to set up for your other skills, great for escapes. Can be used to appear as a random enemy team member (No offense to the skill creators, but this part of the skill is completely useless in anything over low tier play.)

Dominate mind - Control an enemy for up to 6 seconds and do 50 damage per second, skill is broken after you take ~250 damage and you release your target which makes it somewhat unreliable, pretty much paint a target on your head as while you are casting the skill your hands have a very distinct glow, the skill potential is very high with proper timing and placement and is very annoying to go against.


Reaver (Taken from above and slightly edited)
Pounce: Has aim assist, gap closer, can be used as an escape, puts vampire in a sort of high crawl making them difficult to hit in certain situations, ~2 second CC while doing damage.

Savage pounce: Gap closer, can be used as an escape, puts vampire in a sort of high crawl making them difficult to hit in certain situations, ~2 second CC while doing damage.

Leap attack: Instant, Gap closer, can be used as an escape, puts vampire in a sort of high crawl making them difficult to hit in certain situations, since leap attack instantly puts you in a high crawl while maintaining your base movement speed, it is very easy to dodge incoming fire and making yourself a difficult target to hit.

Sweeping kick: Carries your current momentum forward and hits in a slight arc. Used to supplement melee attacks. Has fairly high damage on a somewhat short cooldown.


The only things sweeping kick has going for it is damage and a short knockback.


I don't understand why the reaver needs 3 types of pounces. The options are really nice to have, but in my opinion it seems out of place and to me they just don't feel right. It would be nice to have a skill with a reliable stun like a close range flying knee attack or some sort of trip skill that can be used in melee range. Reavers should have more single target dps than all the other vamp classes due to lack of AOE/multi-target damage. They need to be killers, but they shouldn't completely outshine the other vamp classes. Since humans are so dominant and have a lower skill ceiling then the rest of vamps should be brought up while toning down the humans.

If reavers are the only way to even contend in comp play than to me that just means that either reavers are REALLY strong or they are just the best of the worst. On the same note, if sweeping kick is indeed the most used skill in comp play then nerfing (nerfing might be too strong of a word here) it and not doing anything to fix the underlying problems will only make things worse.

I can't even imagine how hard it is to balance this game. I can only give out ideas, opinions, my experiences, and counter arguments. I try to stay as objective as can while looking at the facts. If you can provide good arguments then please voice your opinions so we can get best gaming experience possible while having fun.


Side note: As I have stated before, I find sweeping kick to be one of the most balanced skills due to good damage, lack of utility, and somewhat short cooldown. With that, I'm not against a tweak as long the skill is still viable and doesn't leave the reaver to only using roll ->attack -> roll -> attack over and over and over again. Sorry for the wall of text again, it just...happened.

Khalith
26th Nov 2014, 09:17
Sweeping Kick probably needs to be tuned down a little bit. Not a big nerf, but maybe a little tweaking to its animation speed and distance covered without sacrificing responsiveness.

The CD as well still needs a tweaking. 8 seconds is still too short.


The heavy reliance on SK Reavers, while it might not last forever as people discover new strategies, speaks to the problem of vampire skill scaling being constrained by animation-locked abilities. Tyrant suffers the worst in this respect as his added HP doesn't necessarily offset his deficiencies in movement and animation speeds. Unfortunately, we can't just "buff" him without utterly destroying the low-to-mid tier game, it will take more careful thought and consideration. In general, I would like to revisit some of our past design decisions RE: anim warmups, tells, etc. to allow for more player skill without making vampires unstoppable murder machines at the low end.
It still remains to be seen what the new human class could do against the Reaver, the new classes could change it up. But right now there haven't been any new abilities or skills to shake it up.


The other subtext to this conversation is about how dependent vampires are on survival cooldowns and how much it changes the meta. I would still like to avoid a world in which every competitive tier vampire needs an Evasion / Shadowstep equivalent to be useful, but recognize how the current setup makes it hard to pick Deceiver, for instance, in comp. play.

I think this can be attributed to the other main issue with the game, human damage is still way too high. Once human damage is brought down and vampires are less dependent on their cd's to survive it makes offensive cooldowns more viable. Assuming human damage is lowered though it would not make the vampires overpowered with their survival cooldowns. Evasion is essentially fine as is and I think shadowstep is as well, Ignore Pain still has it's weaknesses already, while Takeoff and the Phase ability can still be punished as well.

cmstache
26th Nov 2014, 17:12
The reasons why I think it's balanced especially as a special slot is because of lack of utility. For balance sake, if you have a skill that has little to no utility compared to other skills, then you need to give it a lowish cool down with good damage or give it a high cooldown with massive damage. What I mean is this, most of the special slot skills have something else attached to it other than damage. I dislike comparing class skills with another class because they each have something unique that fits the class they are for. My point in doing this is to show that no other special skill has just damage, it has damage and utility. (I put in deceiver's disguise for continuity.)


Basing off of this:
Disguise - Audio and visual cues. Harder to punish, but easily avoidable. Watch for footsteps or hear them and just move away.
Mind Control: Visual cue. Lack of utility, easily punishable, bad for scoring, bad for damage. Higher CD. ZERO versatility.
Charge/Marathon Charge: Audio and visual cue, EASILY dodged without help or proper set-up, less damage than Sweeping kick and easier to punish. High recovery animation. High CD on Marathon Charge. Fast movement speed, but restricts mobility.
Jump Attack: Do I need to comment here? Easily dodged and has both audio and visual cues. Also lacks versatility now that the Jump CD bug was fixed.
Pounce: Audio (MASSIVE) and visual cues. (As for your earlier comment, on this one in particular the damage in each stage is about 50/50.) Stationary, thus EASILY punishable, has a little versatility. The advantage here is that due to aim assist it's a bit harder to dodge close range. High recovery animation.
Savage Pounce: Good damage, but also high risk. Easy to dodge/miss, has a little versatility, and has both visual and audio (MASSIVE) cues. High recovery animation.
Leap Attack: High versatility, low cooldown. High versatility. High movement/smaller hit box. Low damage. Has both visual and audio-cues.
Sweeping Kick: Decent damage output. No recovery animation. Slight visual cue w/ no audio cue. Have to be up close.



I'm purposely leaving out kidnap and abduct here because sentinel skill mechanics are inherently different. That being said, the Sentinel was always punishable by high level play (although not as much as now) but his 2 main skills have been nerfed so much in favor of making his easier to counter in low-level play over time that the fall damage from kidnap and abduct is average at best, and the slashes on abduct were reduced (giving that one a double nerf), reduced their mobility during activation, gave them a HUGE audio cue, shrunken hitboxes, and several other tweaks (and that's not counting changes to the skills themselves or basic flight, which also involves those skills, although some of those were also for the better).



All the above being said, if you look at the two I highlighted, those are also the two people typically have the most issue with consistently, and both are the least punishable. Coincidence? In fact, there's only been a single ability that didn't have a visual cue and an audio cue as short as Sweeping kicks' which was kidnap and abduct back in Alpha when they didn't have a warm-up audio cue. They got a nerf hammer. While I disagree at how heavy it was (imo, I think it should be about half of what it is), I do think the way it was seemed too strong, especially once you consider how easy it was to chain other abilities on top of it. And the entire ability was still cancel-able and punishable, which isn't sweeping Kick, nor was abduct or kidnap instant low-risk damage.

As a little side-note, I do think that if sweeping kick was a primary/tertiary skill it'd be significantly less controversial.



TL:DR- The only precedent that has ever had the power of sweeping kick for special abilities for vampires has gotten a nerf. How do you think Sweeping Kick should be treated?




I'm not really saying it's insanely OP, but the fact that it's caused so many issues show an inherent balance issue with the game that needs to be dealt with by release.

SmurfPoopie
26th Nov 2014, 20:32
The disguise invis is something I feel that deceiver's need to have albeit balancing any sort of stealth/invis is tricky. In my opinion it could use a rework on the second part of the skill but that's a different discussion. The skill itself inherently does no damage and the trade off is it puts you in perfect invis (downsides already pointed out) to get you in/out positions. Sweeping kick is pretty much the opposite of disguise in the sense that it gives you a good amount of damage, but that's all it does. It isn't a gap closer/extender, doesn't cc (very slight knockback doesn't count as cc imo), can't be used to put a target out of position(ex. throw, mind control, abduct, etc.), the damage arc is so small that hitting another human only happens when two humans are hugging each other so it's pretty much non existent. Now that I think about it, sweeping kick is very similar to the sent's puncture skill.


A part of the problem is if you look at the reaver specials you're either pounce or sweeping kick. I firmly believe this is the biggest part of the problem that people have with kick. I've tried all the pounces and I've fully leveled up a mysterious leap attack. Out of all the pounces, leap attack is the only one that feels 'right'. There are too many what-ifs in this game to have any sort of decent and reliable hard channeled CC with such high dps humans. Which is yet another problem. The way I see it, sweeping kick is the skill that has the best synergy with the reavers other skills.

I find the reaver akin to a typical rogue archetype. Hits hard, moves fast, uses element of surprise to attack, but lacks in survivability. As it stands, shadow step will get you out of everything. It can be used offensively but your chances of getting away are severely diminished, or you could use it defensively and it is pretty much a way to guarantee your survival. With that said, what's to stop people from pouncing at a max distance then shadow stepping out? The damage over time breaks after ~250 damage. Yea, they will take damage. But if a reaver gets in close enough to kick they should also take damage.

A few reasons why I think kick is popular is because of playstyle. For me, I prefer to have an instant burst damage skill to use when I see fit. I don't want to wait for something to charge while I need damage now. It throws my timing out of the window and makes it too predictable of a skill to use, which is another reason why I find pounce inferior.

Reavers need a skill that supplements melee attacks while staying agile. Taking away the main strength of the class by using pounce just doesn't make sense to me. It's a cool skill, but it does not belong on reaver in my opinion.


I do have an idea of a skill that could replace the pounces but still keep the reaver agile and gives utility. Again, this is an IDEA of something that could be done.

Trip kick (for lack of a better name)
- Similar to the sent's wing flap but with a tighter width closer to tyrant's shockwave
- Trips target in a line while moving forward (Can not be canceled by the reaver. Other CC's canceling is debatable for balance)
- ~300 damage (debatable for balance)
- 14 second cd (debatable for balance)
- Distance traveled (debatable for balance, but what is show in the picture seems like it would be just about right)
- Provides damage and utility as a gap closer/extender
- Animation speeds would have to be given some serious thought as too fast would make the skill really strong if not OP and too slow would be practically useless.

Pictures for scale and to show what I mean.
http://imgur.com/a/UDr55


Sidenote: Sweeping kick does not carry your current momentum forward. I tested with haste on and you do not move as far as if you were unhastened. It looks like you go through the animation faster while hastened and that causes you to not travel as far. You gain an approximate 3 feet unhastened. Not sure if bug or intended. Would be nice to get some dev input.

cmstache
26th Nov 2014, 20:59
Sweeping kick is considered a CC, it interrupts skills.

There's a reason leap attack was favored the most before kick. The burst and mobility despite lower damage was more effective.

The haste thing is tricky. Skills normally aren't affected. But crawls for pounces and leap are, but also considered movement. If anything I'd think the skill speeds up, buy distance is the same, despite it being faster. I'd make kick stronger, but with a lack of SS or Evasion it'd even out.

uNborn-
27th Nov 2014, 08:05
Oh my. Are people really asking for the one viable vampire skill to get nerfed?. I know there is very few top tier teams and players in this game and I doubt any of them would even consider kick being OP. Humans are much stronger in every way than vamps. This idea is even more ludicrous than people complaining about attack rolling and wanting it removed from the game. I don't understand the logic here. I feel like the only reason this is being talked about is that low skilled players are complaining in droves, At high level a meta is beginning to form quite rapidly and we need to preserve it and add to it. There are new classes coming. Lets see how the meta changes before we start screwing with it.

Khalith
27th Nov 2014, 08:14
Oh my. Are people really asking for the one viable vampire skill to get nerfed?


asking for the one viable vampire skill to get nerfed?


the one viable vampire skill

Do you understand the problem? There shouldn't be just one viable vampire skill. The fact that humans are stronger than vampires is absolutely true, however that doesn't mean the vampires don't need adjustments as well. I'd rather see the other skills be made viable also. If that means nerfing kick and the humans? I'm fine with that.


This idea is even more ludicrous than people complaining about attack rolling and wanting it removed from the game.
That does need to be removed from the game as does the sentinel turning in the air thing. The devs have even acknowledged they want to get rid of the melee + dodge thing, they just haven't figured out how quite yet. I just hope they don't give up and leave it in.

Nuhjeea
27th Nov 2014, 11:05
If Sweeping Kick is nerfed, vampires will feel significantly underpowered in competitive. I think it will be interesting to say the least to see if this nerf actually goes through without any sort of other vampire buffs or human nerfs to complement it.

selkirie
27th Nov 2014, 11:19
Oh my. Are people really asking for the one viable vampire skill to get nerfed?. I know there is very few top tier teams and players in this game and I doubt any of them would even consider kick being OP. Humans are much stronger in every way than vamps. This idea is even more ludicrous than people complaining about attack rolling and wanting it removed from the game. I don't understand the logic here. I feel like the only reason this is being talked about is that low skilled players are complaining in droves, At high level a meta is beginning to form quite rapidly and we need to preserve it and add to it. There are new classes coming. Lets see how the meta changes before we start screwing with it.

Oh my. Actually all of the members of one of the top tier teams think the skill is completely OP.
Humans are so much stronger, that hasn't been denied in any part of the thread.

What is it with you "high" skilled players thinking that this Kick nerf demand comes from low skilled players who don't have a clue about the game ?
I have my fair share of 350+ hours in the game and I can tell you that Kick is completely over powered.
That is COMPLETELY independant from the fact that Humans have a bit too much power and that the rest of the vampires need a slight buff.
So that EXACTLY what you are calling "High Level play" doesn't happen anymore. There shouldn't be one viable skill. There shouldn't be one viable class.

SmurfPoopie
28th Nov 2014, 03:55
Do you understand the problem? There shouldn't be just one viable vampire skill. The fact that humans are stronger than vampires is absolutely true, however that doesn't mean the vampires don't need adjustments as well. I'd rather see the other skills be made viable also. If that means nerfing kick and the humans? I'm fine with that.


Khalith, you are absolutely right. There shouldn't be one viable skill. But doesn't that mean the other vamp skills should be brought up to par and then see how the games turn out? It doesn't make sense to nerf sweeping kick THEN nerf the humans if all that needs to be done is make the other vamp skills/classes more viable.



Oh my. Actually all of the members of one of the top tier teams think the skill is completely OP.
Humans are so much stronger, that hasn't been denied in any part of the thread.

What is it with you "high" skilled players thinking that this Kick nerf demand comes from low skilled players who don't have a clue about the game ?
I have my fair share of 350+ hours in the game and I can tell you that Kick is completely over powered.
That is COMPLETELY independant from the fact that Humans have a bit too much power and that the rest of the vampires need a slight buff.
So that EXACTLY what you are calling "High Level play" doesn't happen anymore. There shouldn't be one viable skill. There shouldn't be one viable class.

Which team? If you know them, would you mind getting them active on this thread so we can see what they have to say about it firsthand?

Would you also mind elaborating on how kick is overpowered? While we're at it, which skills are you comparing it to?


There shouldn't be one viable skill. There shouldn't be one viable class.

So we should give a nerf to a class that, in your words, is the only viable vamp class? Your logic continues to confuse me.

--Ram--
28th Nov 2014, 05:01
The basic premise of this game is that vamps dominate humans in close quarters combat, but have difficulty closing the gap. Kick reavers fit the bill here.

So what if kick allows vamps to instagib a human if 3 reavers kick him. Vamps get gibbed all day everyday by human cc + focus fire, why shouldn't it go the other way as well? If vamps can all reach the humans and pull this off they should be rewarded.

So what if two vamps can chain cc a human and kill it without the chance for return fire? That is the reward for a well set up engagement, and the human has the ability to position himself to disallow this from happening or make it a beneficial trade for their team. This scenario still leaves 3 other humans (aka hunters) which can rape those two reavers with aoe, cc and focus fire.

So what if kick allows for vamps to do hit and runs? At a high level of play there is no way a reaver should be able to cheaply jump in kick and leave with shadowstep unharmed. They will take damage for this and they might die. If they are unharmed the humans ****ed up.

If playing against humans with below average aim, poor positioning and awareness, and minimal team cooperation, then yes often a reaver can jump in, kick someone and get out, or even go to town and finish that player off relatively unharmed. I don't see this as a problem that should be solved by balance, since bad balance is not the reason this is possible. There is nothing stopping a hunter just bolaing that reaver in the time it takes him to jump down and initiate kick. A good human vs a poor kick reaver can just as laughably (if not more so) solo him and take minimal damage.


Oh my. Actually all of the members of one of the top tier teams think the skill is completely OP.

Does this "top tier team" team who you claim to be an authority on the matter have a reason for holding this opinion? Care to share?



I have my fair share of 350+ hours in the game and I can tell you that Kick is completely over powered.


Nice arguement.



That does need to be removed from the game as does the sentinel turning in the air thing. The devs have even acknowledged they want to get rid of the melee + dodge thing, they just haven't figured out how quite yet. I just hope they don't give up and leave it in.
These things are basically incredibly fortunate mistakes/oversights which allow vampires to somewhat competitive. They do far more good than harm. Why on earth you would want to remove the sentinel air dodge I can't understand. It is actually not a terrible mechanic and the only reason they are even vaguely usable in low-mid level play. Seems like you just want them gone because they offend you in terms of aesthetics or purely for the fact that they were unintentional, without regard to their impact on the game. I'm not saying they are ideal, but they could stay in the game and the game would be fine. There is certainly no rush to remove them.

Khalith
28th Nov 2014, 07:34
Khalith, you are absolutely right. There shouldn't be one viable skill. But doesn't that mean the other vamp skills should be brought up to par and then see how the games turn out? It doesn't make sense to nerf sweeping kick THEN nerf the humans if all that needs to be done is make the other vamp skills/classes more viable.

I prefer nerfing the outlier (for the sake of this conversation, that being kick and human damage) when it comes to devs balancing games, in my opinion, that's the most effective method. You are certainly free to disagree though.


Why on earth you would want to remove the sentinel air dodge I can't understand. It is actually not a terrible mechanic and the only reason they are even vaguely usable in low-mid level play. Seems like you just want them gone because they offend you in terms of aesthetics or purely for the fact that they were unintentional, without regard to their impact on the game. I'm not saying they are ideal, but they could stay in the game and the game would be fine. There is certainly no rush to remove them.

I do want them gone because of aesthetics. The fact that I think they look goofy/ridiculous is a perfectly valid piece of feedback. Vampires tumbling all over the place do look absolutely ridiculous. As for the sentinel air turn, I'll be the first to say that sentinel is underpowered, but giving it incredibly high speed in flight (through the proper use of the dodge + turn thing) isn't really a good solution. I'd rather see the vampires viable without any of the unintentional exploits or ridiculous rolling all over the place.

selkirie
28th Nov 2014, 08:19
Does this "top tier team" team who you claim to be an authority on the matter have a reason for holding this opinion? Care to share?



One of the members has already expressed his opinion on this very same thread.


Nice arguement.

Thank you.
If you hadn't stormed in the thread with the intention to bash me, and decided to actually read half of it with no irony, you would have read that my "argument" is on the first post.
I made several points and explained my view on the matter. Please refer to it before trying to make fun of me by being sarcastic.



Khalith, you are absolutely right. There shouldn't be one viable skill. But doesn't that mean the other vamp skills should be brought up to par and then see how the games turn out? It doesn't make sense to nerf sweeping kick THEN nerf the humans if all that needs to be done is make the other vamp skills/classes more viable.

Actually it makes alot fo sense. It's the little tweaking that makes the balance.
Nerfing kick and humans a litlle bit is necessary maybe then the rest of the vamps will get to level then.
I believe the rest of the vampires are fairly balanced between them.

I do believe we are all way over our heads though, trying to discuss how to balance a game, when actually none of us ( correct if I'mwrong though) has ever done such a feat.
Nosgoth is very well balanced as it is, and I do think that the incoming nerfs and buffs are really of low %.
Humans might need -10, -5 damage nerfs.



Which team? If you know them, would you mind getting them active on this thread so we can see what they have to say about it firsthand?

Would you also mind elaborating on how kick is overpowered? While we're at it, which skills are you comparing it to?

Again, for you too. Please refer to my first post to read every comparison and elaboration you need.
Please read the whole thread before trying to discredit my opinion.
Why you and Khalith are using the exact same type of arguments and irony ? And why both of you are trying to discredit me for not having arguments when I posted them in first post ? haha
I found it amusing.



So we should give a nerf to a class that, in your words, is the only viable vamp class? Your logic continues to confuse me.

You are playing with words sadly now.



Anyhow, I believe that Psyonix_Corey has already stated his and the team's opinion on the matter and said that Kick will be getting some kind of nerf and that in fact, sadly, the whole vampire gameplay relies on Reavers and that this is a problem.

Khalith
28th Nov 2014, 08:43
Why you and Khalith are using the exact same type of arguments and irony ? And why both of you are trying to discredit me for not having arguments when I posted them in first post ?

I haven't tried to discredit or attack you at all actually.

selkirie
28th Nov 2014, 08:47
Oops ! Sorry I meant to say --Ram--, not you.

Terribly sorry :D

--Ram--
28th Nov 2014, 11:58
If you hadn't stormed in the thread with the intention to bash me, and decided to actually read half of it with no irony, you would have read that my "argument" is on the first post.
I made several points and explained my view on the matter. Please refer to it before trying to make fun of me by being sarcastic.

The first post was posted a long time ago, I don't re-read the entire thread (I have read it all) prior to posting my thoughts on the most recent posts.

Halpachino
28th Nov 2014, 17:22
What needs to go is the ability to cancel the animation. Most high level reavers are able to come up to me and start the sweeping kick animation i would then roll to avoid it then they will instantly cancel the kick roll over to me and hit me with it while my dodge roll is on cooldown. I think that if you start the animation and cancel you should get the full cooldown instead of 1-2 seconds which is only a very slight nerf.

PencileyePirate
28th Nov 2014, 18:22
What needs to go is the ability to cancel the animation. Most high level reavers are able to come up to me and start the sweeping kick animation i would then roll to avoid it then they will instantly cancel the kick roll over to me and hit me with it while my dodge roll is on cooldown. I think that if you start the animation and cancel you should get the full cooldown instead of 1-2 seconds which is only a very slight nerf.

I don't agree ... having a short time-window to cancel skills when you quickly realize activating it was a mistake is both enjoyable and rewarding. I don't think removing that would be well received.

Tbh I think sweeping kick is just fine as it is, and the pounce/leap skills need to be improved.

Halpachino
28th Nov 2014, 20:48
I don't agree ... having a short time-window to cancel skills when you quickly realize activating it was a mistake is both enjoyable and rewarding. I don't think removing that would be well received.

Tbh I think sweeping kick is just fine as it is, and the pounce/leap skills need to be improved.

Except for the fact that i am punished for correctly avoiding it and the reaver is not punished for making a mistake of activating it at the wrong time. And as far as i am aware (could be very wrong though) this is the only skill that can do this. i know for instance that you can cancel a tyrants throw before it connects but you still get the full cooldown for activating it so why is sweeping kick different ?

PencileyePirate
28th Nov 2014, 21:46
Except for the fact that i am punished for correctly avoiding it and the reaver is not punished for making a mistake of activating it at the wrong time.

I don't agree with this either ... I think missed kicks are pretty easy to punish with a bola and/or some focus-fire.

SmurfPoopie
28th Nov 2014, 22:27
One of the members has already expressed his opinion on this very same thread.

Would you be so kind as to drop a quote from them in your next response?



Actually it makes alot fo sense. It's the little tweaking that makes the balance.
Nerfing kick and humans a litlle bit is necessary maybe then the rest of the vamps will get to level then.
I believe the rest of the vampires are fairly balanced between them.

I will agree with you to an extent on this. Doing small tweaks will eventually achieve a balance of sorts. I also agree that humans need to get a slight nerf. What I don't agree with is that kick needs a nerf. By nerfing sweeping kick, it will not miraculously fix the inherent problems with the other vamp skills which is primarily causing the imbalance in the first place. When the other vamp skills are viable and sweeping kick is still outshining all of the other skills by a mile, then I will agree to a nerf. At the current state of the game, if you nerf "the only viable skill", then you are shifting the balance even further away in favor of the already dominant humans.



Again, for you too. Please refer to my first post to read every comparison and elaboration you need.
Please read the whole thread before trying to discredit my opinion.
Why you and Khalith are using the exact same type of arguments and irony ? And why both of you are trying to discredit me for not having arguments when I posted them in first post ? haha
I found it amusing.

I am in no way trying to discredit you by saying you have no arguments. I was merely trying to get you to look at the thread again so you could re-read what you have actually been saying. Your arguments are not doing anything to properly support your claim. You are making an incomplete comparison with the skills from other classes. There are also numerous logical fallacies with just about every one of your arguments. There have also been plenty of counter-arguments but you seem to disregard everything except for your opinion or arguments supporting your opinion.



Oh my. Actually all of the members of one of the top tier teams think the skill is completely OP.
Humans are so much stronger, that hasn't been denied in any part of the thread.

What is it with you "high" skilled players thinking that this Kick nerf demand comes from low skilled players who don't have a clue about the game ?
I have my fair share of 350+ hours in the game and I can tell you that Kick is completely over powered.
That is COMPLETELY independant from the fact that Humans have a bit too much power and that the rest of the vampires need a slight buff.
So that EXACTLY what you are calling "High Level play" doesn't happen anymore. There shouldn't be one viable skill. There shouldn't be one viable class.

You are playing with words sadly now.

How am I playing with words? Is this not your post?


There shouldn't be one viable skill.
Since your arguments in this thread have been against sweeping kick, it is safe to assume you are talking about sweeping kick.


There shouldn't be one viable class.
Again, since your arguments in this thread have been against sweeping kick and since sweeping kick is a reaver skill, I think it would still be safe to assume you are talking about reavers here also. If I am incorrect in my assumptions then would you please explain what you meant there in more detail?

SmurfPoopie
28th Nov 2014, 22:49
I don't agree ... having a short time-window to cancel skills when you quickly realize activating it was a mistake is both enjoyable and rewarding. I don't think removing that would be well received.

Tbh I think sweeping kick is just fine as it is, and the pounce/leap skills need to be improved.

I completely agree on both points. But if a skill is canceled it should have the same effect across the board and the cooldown should have the same rate. What I mean is this:

Sweeping kick -Normally an 8 second CD, if canceled should be at a 4 second CD

Throw - Normally a 12 second CD, if canceled should be at a second CD

Wing Flap - Normally a 15 second CD, if canceled should be 7.5 second (could be rounded down to 7)

But it gets tricky with skills that have a duration on them like abduct, charge, marathon, pounce, etc.

You could take the remaining time left on the skill, reduce it by half for canceling it then reduce it further by how much time was left on the duration of the skill. It sounds like a decent idea but I'm not sure how bad it would be abused considering that if you cancel tyrant charge after 1 second of use, which is enough to get a knockdown with some decent damage, it would leave it at a 3 second cooldown. Again, it's just an idea. But canceling cooldown rates should be implemented across the board while tweaking the numbers so certain classes can't lockdown a whole team during the fight.

TendrilSavant
29th Nov 2014, 02:03
I don't agree ... having a short time-window to cancel skills when you quickly realize activating it was a mistake is both enjoyable and rewarding. I don't think removing that would be well received.
The rewarding part should be when you time the ability right and outplay your opponent.

Canceling animations is usually bad for balance in general. This isn't usually the case in most FPS/shooters, because when you cancel an animation it means you canceled the action which usually lowers your potential damage, such as canceling reloading or canceling a grenade throw. But Nosgoth isn't a pure shooter, I actually think Nosgoth shares a lot of similarities to fighting games. Most fighting games have an element of ranged vs melee.

Some fighting games allow you to use meter to cancel animations. This is because the designer's know how powerful the flexibility of canceling animations is. The Unreal engine by default blends animations for ease of development, which is sometimes not a good thing when your game has a design outside of convention.


I don't agree with this either ... I think missed kicks are pretty easy to punish with a bola and/or some focus-fire.
They're easy to punish with a cordinated team (but then again that's due to humans strength over all). But in pubs, an individual has roughly less than a second to punish that Reaver before he's gone.

selkirie
29th Nov 2014, 10:22
I am in no way trying to discredit you by saying you have no arguments. I was merely trying to get you to look at the thread again so you could re-read what you have actually been saying. Your arguments are not doing anything to properly support your claim. You are making an incomplete comparison with the skills from other classes. There are also numerous logical fallacies with just about every one of your arguments. There have also been plenty of counter-arguments but you seem to disregard everything except for your opinion or arguments supporting your opinion.



I would love to know what logical fallacies you seen in my arguments, just as much as I would love that you explain to me my disregard towards others opinions.

The argument points you're bringing to the table are all your personal opinion.


Sweeping kick is very dodge-able. Granted it doesn't have an audio cue but it has a wind up before the kick actually happens. If you see it coming then it can be easily dodged. Every skills has either an audio cue or an animation cue, sometimes they have both. It all comes down to positioning.

Sweeping kick is one of the least dodgeable vampire skills. It's the one that has less wind up of all vampire skills and its audio cue comes up once the skill has been activated.


The reasons why I think it's balanced especially as a special slot is because of lack of utility. For balance sake, if you have a skill that has little to no utility compared to other skills, then you need to give it a lowish cool down with good damage or give it a high cooldown with massive damage. What I mean is this, most of the special slot skills have something else attached to it other than damage. I dislike comparing class skills with another class because they each have something unique that fits the class they are for. My point in doing this is to show that no other special skill has just damage, it has damage and utility. (I put in deceiver's disguise for continuity.)

You are indeed right. You can't compare classes since none work the same.
What you are also lacking in your overall skill comparison utility and damage is things like. Does the skill leaves you stationary ?
Does the skill have a recovery animation ? How fast can you either escape, or resume melee attacking?

The only counterback to kick is close range. There's virtually no other con to the skill.



I find the reaver akin to a typical rogue archetype. Hits hard, moves fast, uses element of surprise to attack, but lacks in survivability.

What is the so called lack in survivability ? If not by a difference of 50-100 HP points, the reaver doesn't suffer from any type of handicap that the rest don't suffer.
Tyrant has a little more HP, but are we comparing movement speed and hit box size ?


Reavers need a skill that supplements melee attacks while staying agile. Taking away the main strength of the class by using pounce just doesn't make sense to me. It's a cool skill, but it does not belong on reaver in my opinion.

I agree with you on this one. Still, a full 400 damage seems too much for me.


Sweeping kick is pretty much the opposite of disguise in the sense that it gives you a good amount of damage, but that's all it does. It isn't a gap closer/extender, doesn't cc (very slight knockback doesn't count as cc imo), can't be used to put a target out of position

You're saying it's not a gap closer. Of course it isn't. That is not the Reaver's role. And that leads to our other point.


Positioning and awareness of the whole human team should not let the reaver get in close enough to use kick without taking damage. Essentially, a reaver should not get a free kick unless someone over extended.

A Reaver's moment of attack is confusion and unawareness. When should a reaver attack ? When an other vamp is getting focused on. Bursting out of a shadow bomb in an already engaged team of humans.

Why I also think all your points are not valid is because I believe you're picturing a Reaver in a perfect aware Human environment, attacking alone.


The reasons why I think it's balanced especially as a special slot is because of lack of utility. For balance sake, if you have a skill that has little to no utility compared to other skills, then you need to give it a lowish cool down with good damage or give it a high cooldown with massive damage

I'd like for you to notice that the other single ability that comes close to Sweeping kick's damage, non-stationary, recovery time is Backstab which only deals 100 more damage which is 12 seconds cooldown if I'm correct and Infect that is either 10 or 12 seconds but deals 200 damage over time.
This is not a 400 damage attack that can be thrown in instantly after a melee hit. and that can be spammed again after 7 seconds.



So we should give a nerf to a class that, in your words, is the only viable vamp class? Your logic continues to confuse me.

Now, first of all those weren't my words. I was simply taking unBorn's "viable".
But the statement still holds true.

If Kick is left as it is, and the rest of the vamps brought up, this will only tilt things over to vamps side.
Now I believe that if Kick is toned down a little bit, and some tweaks are done to the rest of the classes, the human nerf might even not be necessary.

I believe that all your counter-arguments are biased, since you are most likely a reaver mainer.

I hope that this satisfies your need for arguments.

I really don't know why we are still discussing this matter though, Psyonix_Corey has already shed some light on Sweeping kick's future, and that leaves me content :)

Psyonix_Corey
1st Dec 2014, 23:55
The rewarding part should be when you time the ability right and outplay your opponent.

Canceling animations is usually bad for balance in general. This isn't usually the case in most FPS/shooters, because when you cancel an animation it means you canceled the action which usually lowers your potential damage, such as canceling reloading or canceling a grenade throw. But Nosgoth isn't a pure shooter, I actually think Nosgoth shares a lot of similarities to fighting games. Most fighting games have an element of ranged vs melee.

I think there is value in being able to "opt-out" of an animation-driven ability early, but I agree that no penalty besides the GCD (which is over by the time you finish rolling) is probably too generous.

As for the question about "why does Sweeping Kick behave this way and nothing else does?" - it applies to all "melee abilities" which includes stuff like Puncture and Backstab. Throw is included, but because the lunge is so quick, it has an extremely brief "cancel" window compared to SK. The cancel window is currently defined as "any time before damage is dealt, or before the ability finishes activating". In the case of Throw, this is when you finish the lunge grab.

There's a few options to consider:
1) Cancelling a melee ability incurs a reduced cooldown penalty, e.g. 1/2 the full cooldown. You are still rewarded for cancelling (vs full cooldown burn) but can't endlessly SK/dodge cancel.
2) Standardize cancel window on these abilities to a much shorter window, say the first second after activation, so you can't nearly complete a SK and then cancel with no penalty.
3) Both 1 & 2

PencileyePirate
2nd Dec 2014, 04:58
There's a few options to consider:
1) Cancelling a melee ability incurs a reduced cooldown penalty, e.g. 1/2 the full cooldown. You are still rewarded for cancelling (vs full cooldown burn) but can't endlessly SK/dodge cancel.
2) Standardize cancel window on these abilities to a much shorter window, say the first second after activation, so you can't nearly complete a SK and then cancel with no penalty.
3) Both 1 & 2

I would much prefer option #2 alone, since reduced CD penalties could affect the balance of other skills and it does seem like kicks can be cancelled a little too late in the animation.

Whoopdidoohah
2nd Dec 2014, 14:31
Good thread guys, just wanted to let you know we were keeping tabs on it.

My general thoughts at this point are:

Sweeping Kick probably needs to be tuned down a little bit. Not a big nerf, but maybe a little tweaking to its animation speed and distance covered without sacrificing responsiveness.
The heavy reliance on SK Reavers, while it might not last forever as people discover new strategies, speaks to the problem of vampire skill scaling being constrained by animation-locked abilities. Tyrant suffers the worst in this respect as his added HP doesn't necessarily offset his deficiencies in movement and animation speeds. Unfortunately, we can't just "buff" him without utterly destroying the low-to-mid tier game, it will take more careful thought and consideration. In general, I would like to revisit some of our past design decisions RE: anim warmups, tells, etc. to allow for more player skill without making vampires unstoppable murder machines at the low end.
The other subtext to this conversation is about how dependent vampires are on survival cooldowns and how much it changes the meta. I would still like to avoid a world in which every competitive tier vampire needs an Evasion / Shadowstep equivalent to be useful, but recognize how the current setup makes it hard to pick Deceiver, for instance, in comp. play.


- Sweeping kick is fine, there a high risk vs reward for that skill. Don't make it useless by diminishing the reliability, you already have good humans dodging out of it or CCing the vamp.
-Tyrant do need some love but it's a risky balance problem because of their HP. I feel like just fixing the clunkiness of their charge attack and 3rd hit in chained sequence would already improve the experience without buffing it 'too much'.
-Sentinel is in a good spot but pidgeonholed for 'nading and harrassment. I feel like a fix for echolocation is in need and a buff in dmg for takeoff.
-Deceiver is a very strong class, as you can easily close distance even vs good players (coordinate your **** with other vamps y'know), but lacks diversity because dominate mind is just a terrible skill to use in a competitive environment, so when you see a deceiver on the other team all you need to do is spot him from long distance if possible and wait for a sound cue and prepare the CC. As soon as he infects he's pretty much dead meat if he even gets to infect. And don't start me on backstab misses, this skill needs a fix as it's useless right now.

Regarding the main topic of this thread, SK is a huge problem for stationnary teams and teams with a lack of CC. Whip, bola, knives, fire wall, disabling curse, hex shot, and a plethora of other interrupts you can perform on a SK reaver that closes distance with a smoke screen (and that's why you should always be on the move as a team vs a bunch of reavers). Watch for your teammates back and focus fire on the visible reavers. I feel like humans have enough tools to deal with them, but a fix not a buff to the other vamps would help.

Also, humans need to use area denials so that when a reaver or any other melee vampire commits himself on a human you are doing max damage on him, really I'm not sure why SK reavers are a big deal considering the number of times they get completely eradicated by a volley, grenade, explosive shot an the rest of the AoEs in the human arsenal. If you see a smoke screen being thrown you don't want any vamps to use it so volley on it and move away. Smoke screen is always a good indication of where and when they're going to hit, deny them that. This reaver build has a gimmicky pattern and good human teamplay can completely counter it. The humans AoE denials are a plenty and deal a lot of damage.

The build is pretty much, smoke - jump in smoke - charge hit - sweeping kick - clean up / shadow step away depending on situation. If you deny them (and their whole team) the smoke advantage the build becomes extremely inneficient. Good players wil use smoke very cleverly but ALWAYS expect something to happen when you have a smoke landing close to you. Also, just saying I like to use whip over bola when I get overwhelmed by SK reaver spam, so get your hunters' whips and scouts' knives and have fun serving them their own medicine.

TendrilSavant
2nd Dec 2014, 17:35
I think there is value in being able to "opt-out" of an animation-driven ability early, but I agree that no penalty besides the GCD (which is over by the time you finish rolling) is probably too generous.
As long as there's an internal consistency that most players can easily recognize, then I have no problem with this being a core ideal of the game. The problem right now is that most player's don't know the strength of canceling animations, usually leaving them hopelessly outmatched.


As for the question about "why does Sweeping Kick behave this way and nothing else does?" - it applies to all "melee abilities" which includes stuff like Puncture and Backstab.
Puncture is the a melee ability that's been around the longest, and yes its had the ability to cancel but due to its stationary animation it's not easy to abuse. I think part of the issue with Kick (and to a lesser degree Infect) is being able to cancel an animation that has momentum.


There's a few options to consider:
1) Cancelling a melee ability incurs a reduced cooldown penalty, e.g. 1/2 the full cooldown. You are still rewarded for cancelling (vs full cooldown burn) but can't endlessly SK/dodge cancel.
2) Standardize cancel window on these abilities to a much shorter window, say the first second after activation, so you can't nearly complete a SK and then cancel with no penalty.
3) Both 1 & 2
How about adding a transition animation for canceled abilities; a short 0.2sec "flinch" or feint as a tell. Could also be implemented on the humans side (on abilities and when canceling reloading).

LudicSavant
3rd Dec 2014, 06:01
The entire vampire side revolves around sweeping kick reavers. I've never seen less than 2 on a team have any success in top level play.

Agreed. Sweeping Kick / Shadow Bomb / Shadow Step Reavers are the core of every vampire team I've encountered in Nosgoth's e-sports league. I have never seen a team with less than 2 of them. Some teams run 4 of them!

Of course, this must be noted in the context that humans currently almost always win organized competitive games, and part of the reason that Reavers are so essential is because of their ability to deal with certain very powerful abilities that Hunters have better than other vampires as well as their ability to block human line of sight with Shadow Bomb. It should also be noted that Sweeping Kick is somewhat reliant on Shadow Step (the best ability in its slot as well! Don't overlook it just because it doesn't do direct damage!) to keep it as versatile and safe as it is.