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Blastin_Foolz
6th Nov 2014, 18:08
I'm just going to say this; TDM isn't going to work on a competitive level. You're going to need a game mode that's fair, especially in an asymmetrical video game. TDM is not compelling enough nor intricate enough to hold any real edge in ranked game play.

Things like this:

Roof Camping is strictly forbidden. (3 mins time limit)


They make me laugh and then cringe. I see all these misguided suggestion threads on how to fix TDM for ranked play and honestly guys, Nosgoth is too unique to be able to be balanced for TDM without the devs having to go out of their way to make it work and I don't think they need to worry about this on top of developing the rest of the game.

Asymmetrical video games need objectives to function in any sort of professionally competitive capacity. Otherwise, you will end up with a game with a dead ranked queue and the inability for anyone to warrant a care in the world about it.

RazielWarmonic
6th Nov 2014, 18:44
Yes, we know TDM isn't ideal for asymmetrical competitiveness. More game modes are in the pipeline and we're just working with what we have now.

Cheers,
Warmonic

mauvo58
6th Nov 2014, 19:04
TDM isn't going to work on a competitive level.

TDM is not compelling enough nor intricate enough to hold any real edge in ranked game play.

Asymmetrical video games need objectives to function in any sort of professionally competitive capacity.

That's quite a few bold statements, care to substantiate them?

Look, everyone knows the roof-camping rule is an imperfect fix. But roof-camping isn't a problem caused by asymmetry, it's caused by teams being able to disengage and run down the clock, this could happen in symmetric games. The asymmetry isn't a problem because both teams play as humans and vampires.

The roof-camping rule isn't even unusual in sports, many professional sports have subjectively applied rules against time wasting, for example soccer. And soccer is definitely less interesting to watch than Nosgoth, but seems to do OK as a professional sport. I'm sure there will be some lessons to learn from the first season, but let's not write it off before it's begun.

mauvo58
6th Nov 2014, 21:26
@RazielWarmonic: An alternative rule to prevent roof-camping would be:

Increase the round time-limit, perhaps to 30 minutes. If a round ends without a team scoring 30 kills, it counts as a 0-30 loss for the Vampires.

It doesn't need to be 30 minutes, something lower might encourage more exciting play, you would have to experiment. It would prevent vampires from roof-camping and has the advantage of being unambiguous, rather than a penalty that is somewhat subjective.

RazielWarmonic
6th Nov 2014, 22:04
@RazielWarmonic: An alternative rule to prevent roof-camping would be:

Increase the round time-limit, perhaps to 30 minutes. If a round ends without a team scoring 30 kills, it counts as a 0-30 loss for the Vampires.

We already have that as a rule in addition to the no roof camping. With these two rules combined it shouldn't be too big of an issue, but will be a case-by-case decision.

If one team accuses another of "roof-camping", we will ask for their NosCam files for that match and review and determine if it is counted as "roof-camping" or not. It is something that can be hard to determine, but we will try our best.

Cheers,
Warmonic

mauvo58
6th Nov 2014, 22:35
Ahh, I should have known you'd already thought of it. :-)

Then I definitely don't understand the negativity. It'll be awesome, I'm looking forward to it.

Blastin_Foolz
7th Nov 2014, 00:45
Yes, we know TDM isn't ideal for asymmetrical competitiveness. More game modes are in the pipeline and we're just working with what we have now.

Cheers,
Warmonic

While I appreciate your reply, even though I absolutely detest it, there is already a current alternative to TDM you could be using. So while it's obvious you're 'working with what you have', I doubt that you guys are really trying that hard to adapt to improve ESL's gaming environment.


Look, everyone knows the roof-camping rule is an imperfect fix. But roof-camping isn't a problem caused by asymmetry, it's caused by teams being able to disengage and run down the clock, this could happen in symmetric games. The asymmetry isn't a problem because both teams play as humans and vampires.

No, you're clearly mistaken.

The problem is caused by asymmetry. TDM isn't a viable option for competitive game play unless both teams are equally mobile/have access to the same load outs. Nosgoth is an asymmetrical game and this is the root of the problem in TDM because one team, no matter how you slice it, play as the humans first. Which directly results in one team getting the upper hand early on and then having free range at evading combat in the 2nd half of the game.

If this game's competitive scene picks up, then this ridiculous "fix" won't be able to be applied on a permanent basis. Then again, I'm not implying its feasible at all in the game's current state and they should be switching to Siege mode or any alternative to Team Deathmatch that may arise in the future.


The roof-camping rule isn't even unusual in sports, many professional sports have subjectively applied rules against time wasting, for example soccer. And soccer is definitely less interesting to watch than Nosgoth, but seems to do OK as a professional sport. I'm sure there will be some lessons to learn from the first season, but let's not write it off before it's begun.

You're missing the point entirely.

Also, your comparison isn't even applicable to Nosgoth or other e-sport involved games. You want to know the reason why League of Legends ranked game play is so solid? It's because a losing team has no way to outright abuse the system to tip the odds in their favour. In Soccer, the players can feign injury, take their sweet time returning the ball to the field when its been kicked, etc. etc. None of these things are even comparable to Nosgoth, except in regards to abusing things to assume control over the game.

Asymmetrical games need objectives. My statements aren't "bold", they're just flat out honest and you can look at any game with a successful ranked gaming environment for proof, both symmetrical and otherwise.

--Ram--
7th Nov 2014, 06:49
I'm just going to say this; TDM isn't going to work on a competitive level. You're going to need a game mode that's fair, especially in an asymmetrical video game. TDM is not compelling enough nor intricate enough to hold any real edge in ranked game play.

Things like this:



They make me laugh and then cringe. I see all these misguided suggestion threads on how to fix TDM for ranked play and honestly guys, Nosgoth is too unique to be able to be balanced for TDM without the devs having to go out of their way to make it work and I don't think they need to worry about this on top of developing the rest of the game.

Asymmetrical video games need objectives to function in any sort of professionally competitive capacity. Otherwise, you will end up with a game with a dead ranked queue and the inability for anyone to warrant a care in the world about it.

QFT. The anti roof camping rule is indeed cringe-worthy even if it is necessary to milk something vaguely resembling a fair match out of TDM at a competitive level.

I'd rather see ESL slap band aids on siege mode than TDM. At least that would be vaguely interesting to play/watch since it would play differently to TDM camp mode with slightly enhanced aim and coordination. It may also lead to useful feedback and discussion regarding future objective based modes - which clearly are required for a Nosgoth E-sports scene to exist

BR0sephStalin
7th Nov 2014, 07:52
Enforcement of this 3 minute rule is going to be extremely subjective, and smart teams will still be able to stall without roof camping. Problems and controversy are definitely going to arise with the rule. I think even having tourneys early with subjective rulesets like this can be detrimental and lead ESL to believe the game is more hassle than it is worth.

Switch to my modified scoring system: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=16812
or consider something similar.

Basically a ruleset that only weighs the amount of kills your team gets as a vampires will prevent stalling. My proposed ruleset goes into tiebreakers but that can get complicated.

mauvo58
7th Nov 2014, 09:25
No, you're clearly mistaken.

The problem is caused by asymmetry. TDM isn't a viable option for competitive game play unless both teams are equally mobile/have access to the same load outs. Nosgoth is an asymmetrical game and this is the root of the problem in TDM because one team, no matter how you slice it, play as the humans first. Which directly results in one team getting the upper hand early on and then having free range at evading combat in the 2nd half of the game.

I agree that in Nosgoth TDM vampire's climbing ability lets them in disengage from combat which is a problem because it can be abused in the way you describe. However the problem can also exists in symmetric TDM games, for example where both teams have a safe zone. I don't understand your point about having access the same loadouts, by playing as both vampires and humans this isn't a problem,

The problem of one team taking the lead and then disengaging is addressed in the rules, but not by the roof-camping rule:


If a round ends without a team scoring 30 kills, it counts as a 0-30 loss for the Vampires.

We already have that as a rule in addition to the no roof camping. With these two rules combined it shouldn't be too big of an issue, but will be a case-by-case decision.

The time-out rule prevents a vampire team with a lead from disengaging, because if the clock runs down they will lose. In this light the roof-camping rule is about preventing unsportsmanlike play, for example realising you will lose so refusing to play, wasting everyone's time.

I still don't see why asymmetry requires objectives. Although I think we agree that allowing teams to disengage in TDM can cause problems.

Blastin_Foolz
7th Nov 2014, 18:10
QFT. The anti roof camping rule is indeed cringe-worthy even if it is necessary to milk something vaguely resembling a fair match out of TDM at a competitive level.

I'd rather see ESL slap band aids on siege mode than TDM. At least that would be vaguely interesting to play/watch since it would play differently to TDM camp mode with slightly enhanced aim and coordination. It may also lead to useful feedback and discussion regarding future objective based modes - which clearly are required for a Nosgoth E-sports scene to exist

Exactly.


I agree that in Nosgoth TDM vampire's climbing ability lets them in disengage from combat which is a problem because it can be abused in the way you describe. However the problem can also exists in symmetric TDM games, for example where both teams have a safe zone. I don't understand your point about having access the same loadouts, by playing as both vampires and humans this isn't a problem,

You don't understand my point because you're not thinking about it clearly. Nosgoth isn't a symmetrical game, but a game that is, both sides have access to similar load outs and have access to the same level of mobility therefore resulting in one team being unable to disengage endlessly.

Name a successful ranked gaming environment in a symmetrical game that has a safe zone (or whatever) that can be abused in an even round limited setting. I doubt you'll find one and if you do, I doubt it's successful. No game that I can think of is symmetrical and suffers from this problem and it's pretty obvious as to why (I'll spell it out for you just in-case, TDM does not work in competitive gaming because it's both boring and more importantly, incredibly unbalanced.)



The time-out rule prevents a vampire team with a lead from disengaging, because if the clock runs down they will lose. In this light the roof-camping rule is about preventing unsportsmanlike play, for example realising you will lose so refusing to play, wasting everyone's time.

I still don't see why asymmetry requires objectives. Although I think we agree that allowing teams to disengage in TDM can cause problems.

Oh, so it's an immediate defeat for the vampires? Well then, me and my goon squad will all go Scout and just use invisibility endlessly and insta-gib any vampire that finds us as they scour the map looking for us while the clock runs dry.

These laughable "fixes" are downright unnecessary and shouldn't even be an issue. Siege Mode is a viable option or they could just hold off on tournaments until the game gets some new modes. Whichever they pick, making a mockery of competitive gaming for Nosgoth with TDM isn't the answer.

You don't see why asymmetry requires objectives? Have you not read anything I've wrote above?

Shutenti
8th Nov 2014, 17:16
We've got to remember this is a beta competition for a beta game. These rules sets and game modes might not even exist in a few months' time.

Maybe Blastin_Foolz is right and highly-competitive TDM will turn into an uninteresting camp-fest. Maybe it won't! I love the way the ESL are answering this question by getting some teams to play it and find out. We won't solve it by discussing it in these forums and we don't have to.

Personally, I can't wait to see what happens! Good luck with that 4xScout+camo strat, btw ;-)