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Shutenti
5th Nov 2014, 13:47
How to Improve at Nosgoth Efficiently (http://yieldthought.com/post/101841700370/how-to-improve-at-nosgoth-efficiently)

Update: Added class and stacking counters, higher-level teamwork advice and updated the aiming section!

I thought a more general guide on how to improve at Nosgoth was missing from here; I used to love reading these on the Altitude forums back in the day. Initially this was aimed at beginners but now it's good for levels 5 to 40.

The guide (http://yieldthought.com/post/101841700370/how-to-improve-at-nosgoth-efficiently) is divided into three sections:

1. Basic advice and skills - aiming, listening, dying
2. Playing to learn - set round goals, flow of play, watch the masters
3. Mid-level play - class counters, yomi, teamwork

Enjoy!

mauvo58
5th Nov 2014, 14:57
You've totally under-sold this guide, it's a great read for players of all levels! This should be required reading.

RazielWarmonic
5th Nov 2014, 17:03
Great guide for beginners! It's not over-whelming with information, but has enough information to get you going. Has tips for new AND old players.

I like it. :)

Also. hopefully as soon as I get a set schedule for my new full-time job I'll pick that guide back up. I'll add videos like dodge-air boost tutorials and the like, now that I can with private lobbies.

But thanks for the guide, Yield!(YieldThought? Shutenti?) I'll be showing it to people who want to improve in Nosgoth specifically but don't know where to begin!

Psyonix_Eric
6th Nov 2014, 01:15
Definitely an excellent guide! Seems very well rounded and it hits on lots of the core gameplay mechanics we wanted to achieve with the game.

Saturnity
6th Nov 2014, 07:44
At least I'm not the only one preaching how important Yomi is even in a shooter.

Shutenti
6th Nov 2014, 08:37
I like it. :)

Also. hopefully as soon as I get a set schedule for my new full-time job I'll pick that guide back up. I'll add videos like dodge-air boost tutorials and the like, now that I can with private lobbies.

Thanks! Reading your Sentinel guide and watching the videos was pretty much solely responsible for changing my KD ratio from 1:2 to 2:1. I'm looking forward to the rest, especially what you have to say about advanced play!

Shutenti
6th Nov 2014, 09:05
Eric, you and the team have made something special. I'm glad to be here to watch and help it grow!

Saturnity, could I link to or quote your post on high-level play (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=14005&p=105534#post105534) in the guide? It expresses a lot of important concepts well and I think the whole "stunlock is lame this sucks i didnt have a chance" thing is going to come up again and again when open beta starts. Yours is a much more illuminating explanation than "Don't Let This Happen"!

Saturnity
6th Nov 2014, 09:34
Saturnity, do you mind if I link to or quote your post on high-level play from here (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=14005&p=105534#post105534) in the guide? It expresses a lot of important concepts well and I think the whole "stunlock is lame this sucks i didnt have a chance" thing is going to come up again and again when open beta starts. Yours is a much more illuminating explanation than "Don't Let This Happen" :)

sure, go ahead

Shutenti
6th Nov 2014, 09:49
Updated, thanks Saturnity!

cmstache
6th Nov 2014, 13:17
It's a good guide, and well-made. However, I do have to disagree with teaching new players how to abuse movement bugs (dodge-attack-dodge). They should be learning how to play the game, not take advantage of the system. It's more of the principle of the matter for me.

lucinvampire
6th Nov 2014, 13:47
Great guide - really like it :thumb:

Definitely going to turn off those settings to see if it makes a difference to the way I play.

mauvo58
6th Nov 2014, 13:58
If dodge-attack-dodge is a bug then Pysonix should fix it. Until then all of us need to learn it or be at a disadvantage.

cmstache
6th Nov 2014, 14:13
It's more of a secondary effect of the other changes than a "bug." A while back the attack ranges were changed in vampires, thus making them lunge further. This is where the slight speed boost comes from when combined with the dodge. Regardless, it's something they have stated they are planning on getting around to at some point. While I agree that other things take priority and that players will use it (even if unintentional) it's not something, imo, that I'd teach to new players. They need to learn mechanics of the game, which will help them far more later on.

Sanguise23
6th Nov 2014, 14:56
Great guide - really like it :thumb:

Definitely going to turn off those settings to see if it makes a difference to the way I play.

i too will change my settings(im not the brightest with some PC things) any other setting suggestions for a layman

Shutenti
6th Nov 2014, 15:34
it's something they have stated they are planning on getting around to at some point. While I agree that other things take priority and that players will use it (even if unintentional) it's not something, imo, that I'd teach to new players. They need to learn mechanics of the game, which will help them far more later on.

Interesting, I hadn't heard that this was unintentional. I'll be sure to update the guide when this is changed! Even without the movement speed increase I would still recommend new players use this exclusively for several matches because it really gets you used to the range, speed and timings of your dodges. Being able to dodge, turn, attack and dodge away again in combat really benefits from being second nature!

RazielWarmonic
6th Nov 2014, 16:12
It's a good guide, and well-made. However, I do have to disagree with teaching new players how to abuse movement bugs (dodge-attack-dodge). They should be learning how to play the game, not take advantage of the system. It's more of the principle of the matter for me.
You're literally hurting new players then, Cameron. Right now I wouldn't call it abuse, but a core mechanic for vampires. It may change in the future, as Corey has expressed multiple times (http://i.imgur.com/B6q2SIU.png), but at the moment until it does change it needs to be used. Until it gets a substitute, if it does, you should teach people how to properly play vampire.

Dodge air boost for sentinels was NOT intentional, should I tell people not to use it? No, I will encourage them to use it because it's literally what is keeping sentinel in this game in some way shape or form at the moment.

Bunny-hopping in Quake wasn't intended (along with a LOT of other movements), but it became basic mechanics that if you didn't understand, master, or as you put it "abuse", simply put you were not ready for competitive play on any level.

I believe what you're saying is outrageous, don't discourage people from using a mechanic in the game. It boils down to if you're not ready to accept using the "most op" composition or unintended mechanics of the game, you're not ready for competitive play. You don't want to teach new players, especially, anything different that'll discourage or put the mind set that this isn't OK, because they will fail. With time things will get patched, replaced, etc. obviously, but there is a reason certain champions are used in League or DotA in high level play, and others aren't. You play what is good, not what is bad, to win.

Now with that much being said, you can have fun and play other ways and I would not discourage that. I'm all for playing what you want if you're here to have fun. However, if your mindset is to win, I'll have a different agenda for you entirely.

Saturnity
6th Nov 2014, 17:59
It's a good guide, and well-made. However, I do have to disagree with teaching new players how to abuse movement bugs (dodge-attack-dodge). They should be learning how to play the game, not take advantage of the system. It's more of the principle of the matter for me.

Unintentional doesn't mean bad design. The way the game is now, vampires would be laughably underpowered without it.

On top of that, it's something as benign as melee-cancelling. Something that really should stay in the game even if vampires get something different to keep them competitive.

Khalith
6th Nov 2014, 21:19
However, I do have to disagree with teaching new players how to abuse movement bugs (dodge-attack-dodge). They should be learning how to play the game, not take advantage of the system. It's more of the principle of the matter for me.

I agree with you in principle. I'm one of the staunch advocates for getting rid of the unintended movement effects (roll cancel and sentinel air dodge), but these two abilities are far too effective not to use right now. If there were plans to get rid of them in the near future (wishful thinking on my part) I'd say don't bother teaching new players that, but as it stands currently, I make sure folks are aware of those moves.


Unintentional doesn't mean bad design.

I'll have to disagree with you here in regards to the roll cancelling. This is purely my personal opinion: I think the constant swing roll to travel around and doing it in combat as well look absolutely ridiculous and really detract from the visuals of the game overall. I've never been shy about saying as much either and, I know I'll probably get flamed for this, I wouldn't be against removing the dodge roll entirely as a mechanic. I'd be fine with a sidestep or even a dash of some kind, but seeing folks roll all over the place looks goofy to me.

Sanguise23
6th Nov 2014, 21:49
im fine with rolling to dodge but agree the melee+roll looks silly

TendrilSavant
7th Nov 2014, 00:15
I don't know how you can call the melee-cancel benign Saturnity, it completely dominated the meta. You can even use it as most humans for a minute speed burst (Alch melee is awkward for this).

As a counter point, just because an unintended mechanic is widely used doesn't mean it needs to stay. I've played a couple F2P titles in the last few years that had such mechanics that the high level players claimed brought depth to the game and only helped to enhance the experience. In fact all it did was increase the skill gap in players because you either know of the unintended behavior or are at a disadvantage.

--Ram--
7th Nov 2014, 04:51
+1 for people being encouraged to use melee cancel and sentinel dodge boost. These may be unintentional but it is still fortunate that they exist. Vampires would be a joke without that extra speed. The more people using it the better until they are replaced by better intentional mechanics (if that ever happens)

Saturnity
8th Nov 2014, 06:19
I'm one of the staunch advocates for getting rid of the unintended movement effects

Fine, but I feel they're what gave older competitive games more flavor. Many old unintended mechanics are iconic these days. Bunnyhopping, wavedashing, rocketjumping, even combos in fighting games.


I think the constant swing roll to travel around and doing it in combat as well look absolutely ridiculous and really detract from the visuals of the game overall.
Maybe I'm too used to Legend of Zelda games.

Khalith
8th Nov 2014, 06:59
Fine, but I feel they're what gave older competitive games more flavor. Many old unintended mechanics are iconic these days. Bunnyhopping, wavedashing, rocketjumping, even combos in fighting games.

For the movement effects, I know they're iconic, but that does it mean it's good to have them? Is it really that pleasant in FPS games having people jump all over the place while shooting at each other? I don't think it is, I think it looks stupid. As for combos, fair enough they were a glitch that became a normal mechanic (the original devs of street fighter said as much themselves, I saw an interesting video filled with street fighter trivia, they believed that being able to strike a person multiple times without them being able to fight back was unfair) , but is it really better having them? I've watched EVO level games of MVC3 and seeing them come down to whoever gets who in those really long nigh infinite combos, should that really be the best way to play? I don't think so, but is it the best way to play? Definitely, you do what you have to when it comes to winning, especially at a tournament.



Maybe I'm too used to Legend of Zelda games.

I absolutely loathe it in games where the fastest way to travel is dodge rolling all over the place, that's one of my gripes with ocarina of time. Hell even I admit to doing it, but should that really be the best way to move around? Do you think the devs intended for people to roll all over the place? No, I would rather they found a way to make travelling faster on foot without needing to do the dodge roll.

If you meant the roll around the enemies to get behind them in twilight princess I didn't mind THAT so much because it was meant to be used tactically against specific enemies and was unneeded against others. You were encouraged to use it at the right time rather than against every single enemy you fought.

Saturnity
8th Nov 2014, 08:55
Is it really that pleasant in FPS games having people jump all over the place while shooting at each other? I don't think it is, I think it looks stupid.

YES. It's a part of what makes old school shooters so great.

I care more about dynamic movement than having a regular walking animation, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Shutenti
8th Nov 2014, 17:10
The beautiful thing about truly competitive play is that it uncovers a world of fractal depth hidden within the edge cases that the game designers never intended or imagined. Trying to design a game without any of these, with a perfect vision of how hyper-competitive matches will play out would be both incredibly difficult and pointless.

As far as the guide goes, I can only teach beginners how to play the game that currently exists - not an imaginary future one that only exists in on a developer's todo list. I will be happy update it if and when the game mechanics are changed; they are the ultimate aribtrer of what is "allowed" and "disallowed".

I'm really, really looking forward to seeing the ESL matches - hopefully with commentary from a player skilled enough to explain the deeper game that isn't always clear on the surface to less experienced players!

--Ram--
9th Nov 2014, 09:40
the deeper game that isn't always clear on the surface to less experienced players!

Not sure the game is as deep as you hope at this point in time.

Sluagh
23rd Nov 2014, 01:22
Really really really good guide. And one people could go back to looking for new stuff. With the sound and listening, it can be also important from a vampire perspective. You can here the dull "thud thud" of alchemists' globes, which in certain circumstances might precipitate a change of class etc. Generally knowing the weapon sounds is useful. The most deadly, quietist one, at least in my limited playing hours, is the Scout's bow. Knowing to leg it when Volley has just been called is lifesaving too.

Shutenti
24th Nov 2014, 10:37
Generally knowing the weapon sounds is useful. The most deadly, quietist one, at least in my limited playing hours, is the Scout's bow. Knowing to leg it when Volley has just been called is lifesaving too.

This is really true. I hadn't noticed until you mentioned it, but every time I hear the launch of a scout's volley I instinctively glance to the sky to see where it's going to come down!

mauvo58
28th Nov 2014, 19:34
I'm looking forward to paying more attention to the sounds when I finally get some new headphones... My current headphones let me roleplay a human or vampire who's deaf in one ear. :-/

Shutenti
6th Jan 2015, 15:12
Today I added class and stacking counters, higher-level teamwork advice, links to videos from high-level players and updated the aiming section - its now a great Nosgoth guide up to level 40 (http://yieldthought.com/post/101841700370/how-to-improve-at-nosgoth-efficiently)!