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RizeMythos
1st Nov 2014, 23:08
As everyone knows, the hunter 4 stack and tyrant 4 stack are probably the most annoying and most un-counter-able stacks around right now. I was wondering if there are any rules surrounding these stacks for tomorrow's Kick-off Cup? We as a team played a match today where we were quite a number of kills up and the enemy team switched out to a hunter stack and managed to come back to close enough to winning that if they had done it 5 kills before, they would have. I know most pro players will know just how unbalanced it is and won't play it but every league has their teams..

RazielWarmonic
2nd Nov 2014, 00:29
As a highly skilled player who has scrimmed with and against some of the better teams for this game, I believe this is a non-issue and will not be looked at at this time.

The whole point of the kick-off cup is to test the water and make rules, but I don't think these will be viable strats anyway. However, we will monitor it.

Thanks,
Warmonic

Da_Wolv
2nd Nov 2014, 17:13
Coming from a TF2 Background, while having a restriction on the classes (in the ETF2L it was 2 of each max, 1 Demomen max) it resulted more from a meta-game than from some higher officials forcing it onto the players (except the Demoman limit)

In Nosgoth I'd like to see that too, I think. It makes for much more interesting matches (after all, making it apealing to watch should also be a criteria!). In any case, I'd recommend doing a special ladder, as was the "Highlander"-Ladder in TF2
Meaning: 1 of each class.

This, obviously, is being undermined by the Developer by creating more classes than the team restriction is (which I find quite dumb) but for now, it would be cool to see 4v4 with each character covered.

Blastin_Foolz
2nd Nov 2014, 18:26
As everyone knows, the hunter 4 stack and tyrant 4 stack are probably the most annoying and most un-counter-able stacks around right now.

I'd say the bigger issue outside of structured games, is stacking skill. Inside structured games, most teams don't stack like that and if they do, they won't succeed.


Coming from a TF2 Background, while having a restriction on the classes (in the ETF2L it was 2 of each max, 1 Demomen max) it resulted more from a meta-game than from some higher officials forcing it onto the players (except the Demoman limit)

In Nosgoth I'd like to see that too, I think. It makes for much more interesting matches (after all, making it apealing to watch should also be a criteria!). In any case, I'd recommend doing a special ladder, as was the "Highlander"-Ladder in TF2
Meaning: 1 of each class.

I played a lot of Highlander in my days. Even have the genuine Highlander tournament medals to prove it, haha. I'd like to see that in Nosgoth as a subtype I think. 1 of each class makes for a much more fair environment, but the exciting part of non-highlander games is to see the strategies some teams come up with that causes the rest of the community to adopt "the meta".

It's always exciting and keeps the game dynamic.

KrazeyXII
3rd Nov 2014, 16:46
The hunter stack isn't the problem, it's just the hunter. When that class is brought more in-line with the other classes this won't be a problem. The hunter can fill every role on human side with little to no consequences, until that changes this will be a problem.

RizeMythos
3rd Nov 2014, 22:15
As a highly skilled player who has scrimmed with and against some of the better teams for this game, I believe this is a non-issue and will not be looked at at this time.

The whole point of the kick-off cup is to test the water and make rules, but I don't think these will be viable strats anyway. However, we will monitor it.

Thanks,
Warmonic

I just played with a three stack of hunters in a competitive scrim. These are supposed to be one of the top teams right now who accused us of breaking the three minute rooftop rule while we were waiting for a player to reconnect. I won't mention names but the stacking is a serious issue with balance. If we stuck our head out over the edge of a rooftop we would have three hunters instantaneously pincushion us, two hunters would be sufficient and any more just turns it into a firing squad..

malgaa
3rd Nov 2014, 23:05
I just played with a three stack of hunters in a competitive scrim. These are supposed to be one of the top teams right now who accused us of breaking the three minute rooftop rule while we were waiting for a player to reconnect. I won't mention names but the stacking is a serious issue with balance. If we stuck our head out over the edge of a rooftop we would have three hunters instantaneously pincushion us, two hunters would be sufficient and any more just turns it into a firing squad..

That's funny how you manipulate and lie /clap.

Next time think twice before asking another team for PCW, you just joined the match and after 10 kills you said "GG you guys are better" and basically stopped playing. You just made us lose time because you didn't even try playing the game.

I understand now why you opened this thread, you can't even try learning how to counter a tactic so you better complain about it "Hunter OP blablabla".

And by the way, reavers camping on roofs while sentinels throw nades during 10 minutes (not including the time we were waiting for your mate to reconnect) yes, that breaks the 3 minutes camp rule.

clyph0rd
4th Nov 2014, 04:08
Coming from a TF2 Background, while having a restriction on the classes (in the ETF2L it was 2 of each max, 1 Demomen max) it resulted more from a meta-game than from some higher officials forcing it onto the players (except the Demoman limit)

In Nosgoth I'd like to see that too, I think.

I just want to say this now (and if anyone ever hears me talk about this game, they will likely hear me repeat this): PLEASE DON'T BE HASTY ABOUT IMPOSING CLASS LIMITS ON COMPETITIVE PLAY.

You point to how it's worked out in TF2. Has it really?
In TF2, the comp scene has created a situation in which the developers disregard input from the competitive community because thos players are experiencing the game in a subjective environment that has little real significance on the actual game.

In fact, recently the only legitimate input the comp scene has had recently was the movement to revert the demo nerf... Which would have fixed an imbalance the comp scene already recognized. Mixed signals much :?

Lange has some great stuff to say on this; check out this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcb0mFMtXyE&feature=youtu.be&t=25m23s


I don't want to reach a similar situation in Nosgoth. Before we start making class or item limits that will change the meta, thus changing our perception of balance, thus changing the class or item lists... and so on, we should request that the dev team make necessary adjustments to insure balance. ESPECIALLY seeing as the game has not even been released yet.

The only caveat I'd offer, which some people have already stated, is that I think it would be fun to experiment with a highlander-esque game mode: one of each class.

RizeMythos
4th Nov 2014, 12:03
I just want to say this now (and if anyone ever hears me talk about this game, they will likely hear me repeat this): PLEASE DON'T BE HASTY ABOUT IMPOSING CLASS LIMITS ON COMPETITIVE PLAY.

You point to how it's worked out in TF2. Has it really?
In TF2, the comp scene has created a situation in which the developers disregard input from the competitive community because thos players are experiencing the game in a subjective environment that has little real significance on the actual game.

In fact, recently the only legitimate input the comp scene has had recently was the movement to revert the demo nerf... Which would have fixed an imbalance the comp scene already recognized. Mixed signals much :?

Lange has some great stuff to say on this; check out this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcb0mFMtXyE&feature=youtu.be&t=25m23s


I don't want to reach a similar situation in Nosgoth. Before we start making class or item limits that will change the meta, thus changing our perception of balance, thus changing the class or item lists... and so on, we should request that the dev team make necessary adjustments to insure balance. ESPECIALLY seeing as the game has not even been released yet.

The only caveat I'd offer, which some people have already stated, is that I think it would be fun to experiment with a highlander-esque game mode: one of each class.

I would agree with stacking if pretty much all classes didn't have two benefits..

Scouts - High DPS with hardhitting charged shots. I've played against scouts that can land 4 stormbow shots without missing, I have almost no problem with these but when stacked, if you're hit by two warbows fully charged, you're pretty much dead.

Hunters - Excellent crowd control, can easily keep vampires at bay while having massive DPS to go with a high ROF. If stacked, three hunters could easily hold a whole vampire team at bay with having a support alchemist or scout to finish them off

Alchemists -Absolutely a terrible decision to stack. The only issue is the amount of fire can cause chaos..

Prophet - Really no issue with these being stacked. To me, they're more passive than the others. Less damage done by abilities and more focused on team healing/self healing

Now, vampires

Reaver - No problem with reavers. They're pretty easy to counter..

Tyrant - Tyrants have a lot of AOE abilities that CC the enemy. With three tyrants it feels like you get charged, slammed, thrown and jumped on more than you're actually playing the game.

Sentinel - Only problem here is the amount you get abducted/kidnapped.. You dodge one to only get hit by another straight away..

Deciver - Imagine this. The other team is ebola. You can't see them but they're damaging you and if you go near your team, you pass it to them.. It's no too difficult to counter but really gets annoying after 5 minutes of not being able to see what you're trying to kill.. This isn't Ghostbusters: The Game


I can't wait to see how many people tell me "Just stack back" every tactic has a counter. I know this but I'm not a cheap player. I'd rather win with skill than a game of "I'm more OP than you"...

Shutenti
5th Nov 2014, 14:02
I can't wait to see how many people tell me "Just stack back" every tactic has a counter. I know this but I'm not a cheap player. I'd rather win with skill than a game of "I'm more OP than you"...

Reading David Sirlin's Play to Win changed the way I think about competitive games entirely. Sirlin might be a little aggressive about this but his point is a sound one: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub. This essay was the first thing I thought of when reading this thread.

Khalith
5th Nov 2014, 15:05
Reading David Sirlin's Play to Win changed the way I think about competitive games entirely. Sirlin might be a little aggressive about this but his point is a sound one: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub. This essay was the first thing I thought of when reading this thread.

I have to agree, I've read Sirlin's essay as well and the point still stands. It is most definitely a fact that Reaver/Deceiver stacking is an easy mode faceroll way to win as is prophet/hunter stacking, it is by far my least favorite setup to play against or with as the games become incredibly boring. However, when you're playing a tournament for money? You do what you have to for the win outside of outright cheating of course, aimbots and the like have no place in any game.

Though I do agree with Rize's sentiments as well, I feel better about winning with a mixed team then I do about lame stacking, doesn't mean I won't go for a stack to secure a win though.